Ben Young: The Frank Green Founder Making Plastic Pallet Wrap Extinct

Speaker A: It's a household name. Frank Green. I think everyone heard of it. I'm pretty sure my wife has got three or four bottles at home.

Speaker B: Um, we wouldn't have, you know, sold as many water bottles in Australia as there are Australians.

Speaker A: What were some hard lessons, scaling like a physical product like, and taking that globally.

Speaker B: I think you got to listen to your customers like, you know, to this day we spend 50,000 hours a year on product development. We are just relentless and obsessed. We don't have the, the opportunity to run the hair brain scheme department as I call it, to come up with ideas like no wrap,

Speaker A: Let's get into it. So Ben, thanks for jumping on. I really appreciate your time and really good to uh, to unpack a few things here. Um, so your business, uh, you know, it's a household name, Frank Green. Um, I think everyone, everyone's heard of it. I'm pretty sure my wife has got three or four bottles at, at home. Um, take us back. You know, I guess it's. I was reading on, on your website, it kind of started back in the 90s for you and you had a bit of a vision. But yeah, if you take us back and give it a bit of a high level, um, what kind of made you want to build it?

Speaker B: Well, you know, I just was someone who was always out in nature as a kid, always out fishing and walking around in the bush and all that kind of thing. And so I've just got this innate love for um, for nature. And everywhere I went I just saw um, you know, single use plastic just in really kind of, um, just disrupting, you know, being able to see the environment and it's kind of pristine. So then, you know, I took that, you know, from a very early age, um, and I did, you know, and then I started my corporate career, which is wonderful. I've got so many, uh, really fond memories of that and the experience I got. And then you know, you get, you get into your 30s and you start to think to yourself, well, I want to do something better. So I want to be able to be impactful and use, you know, hopefully your brains and your experience for good, not for bad is in, is incorporate. So then I just, you know, I started it, I started doing a whole bit of deep research around why people didn't use reusable products. And you know, simply put, it was because they looked horrible and didn't perform how you'd expected. So then I went on a big process, um, you know, you know, pages and pages of research I did on, on why People didn't use them and, and, and so wanted to make sure that every single thing and it was literally a hundred point checklist of all the things that we needed to achieve. And, and so we didn't start the business until, until that happened. Um, and, and people, you know, life's a popularity contest and people want a be reusable products. So it had to, it had to deliver on that. And um, that's something that I, that that history says we did deliver on it otherwise we wouldn't have, you know, sold as many water bottles in Australia as there as they are Australians. Right. So yeah, yeah, that's how it all started. It's from, it's from passion but then using my business experience to make sure that I can solve the business need and you know, um, be two standard deviations. I call it away from um, our compet because it's very noisy out there. And so you know people um, have got a lot of competing interests and so you've got to make sure that you can, you can capture the imagination with a well designed product and a really enviable brand.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And did you get much pushback in the early days or people were just saying that's you know, pretty crazy idea, single use, you know, that won't work or what was the general consensus back then when you were launching it?

Speaker B: Uh, well, you know back when I started, about 1% of people used a reusable uh, coffee, uh cup at a cafe. They, they took it in to get refilled. But then you know, over time and the war and waste from the chaser guys, you know they, they did a good job when they put wholly per single use plastic cups in a dram and traveled around Melbourne and you know it was quite impactful at that stage. But you know people just said to me that you know you've, you, you've just made a really beautiful keep cup. That's what they said. You know there was other products on the market at the time and they just said yours is the most beautiful, you know, keep cup and it didn't leak and all these kind of things. So that's what, what we had to do.

Speaker A: Yeah, and now you guys are pretty much everywhere or uh, from, from what I can see, all over. But what were some hard lessons scaling like a physical product like in taking that globally.

Speaker B: Well, I just, I think you got to listen to your customers like you know to this day we spend 50,000 hours. It was, you know it's increasing um, 50,000 hours a year on Product development. We, we are just relentless and obsessed. You know, I think I can say that word. We're obsessed with getting things better. Where, you know, one of our leads, for example, has got 17 changes to it since we launched it. And so, you know, you probably wouldn't recognize it. You know, a consumer wouldn't recognize at least 15 of those. You know, it's the materials you use, the sure hardness of those mature drink materials, how it works in amsr, like, you know, the clicking and everything like that and just how it works in people's psyche. Right in. So it's that deep seated kind of consumer research where we try and listen every single day and really respect that customers have a choice to buy our product over someone else's. So we just, we want to really fight for that and, and, and be worthy of the money that they're giving us to make these products and sell them. Right. And the thing is, you know, to start with, a lot of people got put off their reusable journey being reusable coffee cups or water bottles because they got given a really bad experience. And imagine, you know, a junior human, you know, gets given this horrendous water bottle and it tastes a plastic and all this kind of thing and then they got a drink out of it. You know, that's the drink out of the tap. You know, they would want to go and get a single use water bottle and drink out of that because their experience is horrible. So we have obligation and, and a real, um, you know, goal here is about stewardship and making reusable products beautiful and irresistible so you can't say no to them. And that's something that, um, you know, I'm really proud with the um, amazing stuff that we have that everyone feels like that, like we've got a job to do and we've got to be the best we can.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And as the business grew and as you scaled, you must have had some challenges of your own, um, particularly in the warehouse and, and on your own logistics side.

Speaker B: Are you ready? Yeah. Well, one Christmas it just was, you know, our campaign was so beautiful. I think a product was so beautiful, everything came together and you're getting 20, 25,000 orders a day, you know, and it just, you know, you think you're going to catch up, but then it keeps accelerating. So you know, one Christmas we got all the orders out, but they, uh, but I'm acknowledging they were late, but you know, you know, we, we spent probably over a million dollars giving back money to customers where their product Was like we paid them back their freight or something like that. We didn't need to do any of that, but we did it, uh, you know, it was over a million dollars that we paid back just to say sorry because you shouldn't get that from Frank Green. And that was, you know, that was really difficult times. And we just moved into a new site. You know, it was nine acres in size. You know, it's what the main warehouse, you know, 13,000 square meters. Like it's a big. We had hundreds of people working round the clock. But we just. The popularity of the brand was so phenomenal. It was, you know, just difficult to keep up. Um, and we had to slow down orders and all sorts of things. But we had, you know, it was always really important to be responsible and say, you know, sorry, but not just say sorry, but also, you know, um, we provided compensation back to our customers, you know. Cause talk is cheap. Right. So I think that was the real, the measure of the brand and what we stand for.

Speaker A: Yeah, customer focus for sure. And, and what were some of the challenges around plastic or just general waste in, in your warehouse that you. And when was the kind of tipping point where you looking at it going, hang on, we can do something about this?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, um, when we first started Frank Green, um, we, we wrapped up and all of our competitors still do this today to this day. But the, the um, we put our, our products in plastic bags to get them here because we didn't want them damaged and we um, you know, going out with any scratches, it had to be perfect because that's the experience we wanted to give. But then over time we did, you know, years of research and testing to put, you know, different um, things around our products in the boxes before they came to Australia or uh, into other markets. And we've done that really well. Now there's no um, plastic in any part of our supply chain except for pallet wrapping. Right. Um, and I know we'll probably talk about that a bit later, but um, yeah, so that's, you know, one thing that we've done, um, taking plastic out of our entire supply, uh, chain now that we have no wrap. Right. And no one can say, no, no, no business ever can say, can say that. And you know, putting that in context, if you have a single use coffee cup every day that you go to a cafe and buy your, your coffee and you do that for an entire year with the lining that's inside a, uh, plastic cup, that will give you about, you know, the 365 of them will give you about a uh, kilogram of. Right? But you, uh, you, me, you know, um, everyone, you know, contributes to three and a half kilos of plastic wrap when it comes to pallet wrap because of all the, you know, when you go to Woolworths, you go to Coles, whatever, all this stuff in, in that, that from their manufacturers to them, from them to the stores, all that kind of thing, we, we make up for um, three and a half kilos of plastic wrap every, every year. So, you know, it's, you know, put another way, you know, plastic wrap is three and a half times worse than people getting single use coffee cups. Not that I, I'm saying we give a single use coffee cups or water bottle a free hit here, but you know, it's a problem that no one's talking about, right? And the reason why no one's talking about it is because no one's solved it before. And, and so if you're a, you know, the CEO of a logistics business, you probably don't say to your staff, hey, I need you to solve that problem because you, you knew that they couldn't solve it, right? That they, you know, because rap, um, was all, was the way it was always done. So. Yeah, and that's the thing, you know, Frank Green, as a business is a design business. We, we sell over 150 products. Um, so out of those 150 products that we've designed over the last 10, 11 years, um, we've learned a thing or two and we have a process for going into our business and you know, listening, you know, thinking, prototyping, you know, engineering, you know, and then we make something. And that's how NORAP was born. Now it was our sustainability, um, you know, working group with logistics saying we, when we've done all these other amazing things and the simple things like putting solar on the roof, um, all that kind of thing, all the things that you would imagine we've done. But then we look out on our warehouse, warehouse and we, you know, there's this uh, place in our warehouse from our office and you can get the lookout over the whole of the warehouse and you just see these um, plastic wrap and it made you sick. And we couldn't do it, couldn't fix it. So we just put our attention to it and fixed it. And um, yeah, you come to our warehouse now and it's like, I got a calmness about it. Um, you walk into it and you feel like it's progress as opposed to just seeing this, you know, these Pallets wrapped, you know, in plastic.

Speaker A: And why do you reckon it took so long, you know, for someone like yourself to come along and actually think about that issue and then potentially solve it? Like were people thinking about it before or was just. They've always done it that way. So we'll just keep doing it.

Speaker B: Well, you know, pellet wrap is kind of effective in a sense of, you know, constrains it to the palate, you know, protect some water going on it and all that kind of thing. Right. And we're just, yeah, people would. People just. That's just the way it was done, you know, but it didn't, it didn't need to. And that's the thing with no rap. That's the thing that we're super proud of. It's just, you know, that it's so simple. You know, people go, what now? Come m. No, you know, the thing that we hear more than anything is why didn't I think of that and why wasn't that done before? Because it's so simple. It's like, yeah, okay,

Speaker A: and, and let's, let's, let's talk about no wrap. So that's, that's your new business that you've recently gone live with. Right? Talk us through what is no wrap if you had to kind of give a high level overview.

Speaker B: Well, it's just a, it's the replacement of reusable replacement to single use a uh, pallet wrap. So you never need to use it anymore and it's extinct.

Speaker A: That easy.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Yeah. Right. And I mean it might be obvious to some and not obvious to others, but what, what are the main issues with the uh, the pallet wrap? The traditional pallet wrap that's always been used in warehouses like what are, what are, uh. Because it's very cheap. Obviously that, that'd be one thing as to why people just keep using it, but you know, what's the big issues there with it?

Speaker B: Well, um, you know, Australia has 100 million tons of plastic wrap. Right. And the world has 600 million tons of plastic wrap. Right. So that, you know, plastic is oil. You know, we, we were born with oiliness. But. And there's also, you know, 500 genuine, you know, not Mickey Mouse clinical studies that link, you know, plastic, uh, as a, you know, as a product and the chemical makeup of it to inhalements and cancer and all sorts of things. But I don't, you know, kind of, I don't want to go down that track as he's doing this a kind of thing. I Just want to work on, on the solution. But, you know, it's a big, a big problem. You have to, you have to get the resources, you have to make it, you have to transport it, you then have to, you know, use it. And then you've got to cut it off and then you've got to, you know, um, and then you've got to dispose of it. And only, you know, uh, 95% of it goes to landfill in Australia. Because the economics of recycling don't work in Australia. Right? So that's the thing. It just all ends up in a big hole and that can't be great in microplastics and blah, blah, blah. So that, you know, that's one of the reasons why, you know, we need to not do it. But moreover, you know, no wrap is absolutely cheaper. You know, it's got a payback of less than a year. You know, when I was doing M and A, uh, tell you what, if I took a, ah, business case to, you know, my CEO, um, of a payback in less than a year. Give me a kiss. Right. You know, that never happens. You always, you know, that's where. If you can get your payback in that financial year, wonderful. You know, it's cheaper. And I can quickly, I can explain going through that. It's faster, uh, 45 seconds versus, um, you know, three minutes, three minutes 30. And you know, we've got videos on our, on our Instagram and a website to show that, you know, it's safer, right? It's a lot easier and safer. You don't have to have, you know, blades and you don't bending over as much and all that stuff. And then it's definitely better for the environment as well, um, you know, being cleaner. So it's, it's those things that I think are, you know, on every level it has something for someone. Right. So it is. So it does become irresistible. And you know, we're working through that now and you know, talking M to, you know, some of Australia's biggest companies and they're trialing it now to, to put it into their operations.

Speaker A: Incredible. And you guys obviously did a lot of R and D and trials on, on your own business on Frank Green before the launch. What were some key takeaways that you had or what surprised you the most once you were actually testing it in a real life scen.

Speaker B: Well, this is worked. I think, you know, even I was dubious of it. Right. And then, you know, we were doing it in a kind of analog kind of, um, way. And then once we, you know, got our design team, you know, John involved and we started you know, uh, 3D printing bits and using bits and, and then you know, the types of Velcro and how it fits into the spine of the, the corners and everything. And once we started doing that, it just uh, just, it just took more life. And then, you know, we're pretty busy with Frank Graham if, you know, world domination in a sense. And so it had to be, you know, something that we, we thought we could deliver as opposed to being a nuisance in a sense to Frank Green. And, and that was a big consideration. Should we do this when, you know, hard enough to run one business alone too? But I just, you know, think back and everyone's like, no, no, if we don't do this, we're going to be kicking ourselves in five minutes time. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because, uh, you know, so compelling at every level. Um, it was better.

Speaker A: Yeah. And does it fit any kind of shape palette or what about mixed um, skus or anything like that? Or is it designed for as long

Speaker B: as you can put them? Um, you know, so the corners are ah, uniform. It will work. And you know, the really nice thing about logistics is, you know, everything's burping per pallet and pallet space. And that's a unit, you uh, know, an economic unit of space. And so people try, and people try and optimize that palette. You don't want to have a palette with only 20 utilization. So we try and fill out the one point, you know, one, one point, um, nearly 1.2 meters either side. Right. So that's a like built in. There's a built in mechanism to make pallets conform to how no wrap works. And yeah, there will be some rainbow pallets that it won't work but we'll just, you know, for, for that minority, we will just come up with something. But I don't want that to stop that 90, you know, 90 high 90s that this actually works for.

Speaker A: And I know you mentioned the payback can be less than 12 months, which is very, very fast. But obviously a roll of wrap is. I, I don't know the cost probably literally a couple of cents, whatever it is, for one, one role. But how do you.

Speaker B: No, it's a lot more than that, you know, palette and you know, depends on how, how much you stretch rabbit and how many microns it is, but you know, anywhere between 400 grams and half a kilo of plastic wrap on every uh, on every pallet. Right. Um, and if you stretch it out, it's 20 meters, thereabouts. You know, once you go 1.2, 1.2 and around. Right. Four point being a good couple of wraps. Four wraps say. And looks way more than that that you're at 20 meters of pallet wrap. So you know, plastic, you know, costs a couple of uh, you know, three, three dollars a kilo, four dollars a kilo. So each part is costing you well in advance of a dollar, closer to $2 to wrap a pallet. That's just in, that's just in the raw materials. It's not, it's not a, you know, what's happened more recently with the oil crisis, all those prices have gone up by another 30%. Mhm.

Speaker A: And then you've got the time, the time, right. If it's three times longer, then you've got to allocate that time for the pick packers and the people in the warehouse actually doing that. So I guess if you kind of multiply that out, um, your solution does seem like a bit of a no brainer in that regard. But how realistic do you think it would be to convince an OPS or a warehouse manager or a CEO of a logistics business that upfront cost, um, and to get that payback, well, they

Speaker B: can rent it from us, you know, they don't have to do that upfront cost and okay, you know, we're doing this for all the right reasons and we're not like it, you know, 50, just over $50 for a kit. Right. You know, anything else out in the market that is 100 and you know, the people want to wrap the palette in this big bead of canvas and things. You know, that's 150, 180 for doing that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And takes a lot longer to, to, to do it. So I just, I, yeah, it's quite, to me it's quite compelling. You can rent it or buy it. It's up, it's up to you. Right. And we most certainly have a system, you know, not dissimilar to ship right. Where you can, where you, you know, it's an inventory system for um, our products and also it also manages um, all of your compliance and ESG reporting as well and can manage those transfers in and out. So it's a, you know, an ESG engine and an inventory management system all in one. And that's something that we've, we've just developed over uh, the last few weeks. We've been developing for many, many, many months. But it, it's ready now and it's, it's just wonderful. So people can See, you know, by putting in their, their, you know, their operation specifics around their labor rates and how much they were paying for, for pallet wrap. You know, some people pay lots, some people pay less, depending on, on the type that they use. Right. And so you put all these, uh, into the calculator and, and you know, from the transfer of the pallets from, you know, from say, Frank Green to David Jones, we know that this is how much we've saved and how we've gone about it. Right. So it is very similar to the Shep and Moscombe systems today that, that are already out there. So, so people, um, from my perspective, we're not asking people to do anything different.

Speaker A: Okay, and then on, on the ESG topic as well, because I, I'm not fully across it, but I understand there's some new climate disclosure rules and, and some new regulations coming into place. Um, can you talk us through. I'd imagine you're probably more across that, but can you talk us through, um, scope three and like, what's actually coming for businesses and how that could impact this?

Speaker B: Well, you know, scope one and two, you know, what, what, what's in your supply chain and what you can directly control. And then, then, then you get into scope three, right, which is, you know, which is all your inputs into making your products and the impact that you have up and downstream. Right. So they all need to be collected in terms of CO2 and the different factors that, that, you know, the Climate Action Group give you on that. And so there's formulas for all the inputs in your supply chain that you, you fill out and then you come out with ultimately a, uh, CO2, um, impact on the environment. And you know, the cost of carbon's 45 thereabouts are done. And so, yeah, there's, there's a, there's a cost to that. And I see that in the future, you know, for all the right reasons, companies won't be able to get any finance from a bank or uh, you know, investors won't invest in you unless you can show that you are being, uh, you know, you are looking after the future of, of the globe as well. So that, so that's where, that's where it's coming. And there's of course, like, when these things come into place, there's a lot of confusion at the moment. But just imagine what no WRAP can do for you when it's probably your, you know, uh, biggest thing that you can control inside your warehouse is have um, the no wrap system and take away, you Know, so you know, if you, if you're wrapping 10,000 um, pallets, that's 5, 000 kilos of thereabouts, um, or plastic that you're, you're avoiding every year. It's huge. It's, it's an U.N. you know, as I said before, it's most certainly an U.N. you know, people just don't talk about it because I don't think it can be fixed. But it can.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you guys I think are ah, direct to consumer or online, um, at the moment. Are you going through other channels or other stockists or.

Speaker B: Yeah, we, we are. So you know there's a wholesale part of my business. You know the, the, you know we're out there at the moment talking um, you know to a whole lot of people. And just in the first week we had a hundred people reach out to all businesses. So we're working through um, that now, um, and scaling up manufacturing, um, uh, for all of those orders.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. And what's your view, I mean with the big packaging companies, right, that you're essentially kind of taking on like are you, do you think that at. They'll approach you to, to partner on a solution like this or are you just kind of going head to head with these guys or.

Speaker B: You know, I just, it's like people waiting around for a government grant. Like it's. And we're lucky because you know, Frank Green's done, done. Okay. So you know, it's not like a, I'm worried about a government grant or something like this to get the business going. We're just going in a flat gas. Right. That's the, I think that's the Frank Green DNA too. You know, Green at something go, go at it hard and see what turns up. So that's where I'm at. But uh, uh, you know, but I think more of answer your question, uh, I'll absolutely collaborate in this week. You know, this is a big problem and we're going to be better together. So if one of these big packaging companies and the huge, you know these companies are the size of a planet, right. If they come to me and, and some already have, um, we'll, you know, we'll collaborate with them and maybe uh, on their, you know, they can also retail, um, no wrap as well, you know. So um, I'm not saying no to it because this is an industry solution and we're going to be better together.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And it's, you said it's faster, cheaper. I mean it's, it's Pro, pro, pro. But are you getting many or any at all objections or, or misconceptions? Um, potentially from. From people about no wrap compared to just pallet wrap?

Speaker B: No, we bring them to our warehouse and we show them and they talk to the operators that use it, the people that wrap it, and the people that get it down from the pallet rack. And I think, you know, to start with, it is probably a bit of disbelief that why aren't we already doing this? That's the thing. You know, I think if anything stops us, like, there might be a, A, uh, healthy amount of embarrassment because they're not already doing it, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, right.

Speaker B: You know, the changes of cycle disbelief, you know, is the first one. Yeah, they're going through that.

Speaker A: And, and I guess the challenge can be like, people have ingrained habits, right? Um, what have you kind of learned around how to get that user adoption on board or how that change actually happens? Because you've obviously seen it with Frank Green going from single, uh, sorry, going from, um, coffee cups to single use. But what's your thoughts on, on that ingrained habits that humans tend to. To have?

Speaker B: Well, we've got to train them. We gotta, we gotta break bread with them and go there. Like, you know, we kind of don't have in norap, we don't have sales reps, in a sense. Right. We have, we have people that are onboarding specialists and they go there and they listen and they think. And it is a little bit of like mini consulting on each sale that would have. So we can tailor it to their needs and talk to them about, you know, different customers will have different things. Right. You know, some people go, oh, uh, can it be cold chain? Yes, it can. It's, you know, blah, blah, blah. It cannot be this. And so you just, you know, you've just got to go out and have a cup of coffee with them and take them, take them through it, it and get them to practice it. And once they've done it, they go, oh, geez, I, I could do that. And I did pretty well.

Speaker A: And what lessons or what kind of, uh, you know, success stories are you taking over from Frank Green over to no Rap over the last, you know, 13, 14 years?

Speaker B: Well, I think it's just a belief that, you know, every single day is a challenge and you just got to get up and dust yourself off and get, get on with that. I think it's that resilience up. You know, I'm really proud to say that Franklin's a very resilient company. You know, every day is a school day. Um, and feedback's a gift. I think that that's it. You gotta, you gotta keep open to it all and you've gotta just put the hammer down. You know, sales are important. You've got to get sales and you've got to work through it. Otherwise you don't have the, the opportunity to, you know, run the hair brain scheme department as I call it, to come up with ideas like no wrap for example, you know, and you know, manufacturing, you know, manufacturing in Australia, you know, some would say it's, you know, it's on life support at the moment and you know, we're doing it, you know, come September with all the equipment that we purchased, you know, it'll be lights out at Frank Grain. You will, there'll be just, the machines will just be going lights out producing no uh, wrap parts and other things that we're manufacturing for the Frank Green business as well. So it's cool to be able to bring manufacturing, clean green engineering jobs back to Australia because you can do it. You know, power is not more expensive in Australia, even though it's expensive and you just use solar anyway. We've got a whole heap of solar on the roof. Power's not more expensive than China. You know, it runs lights out. So you know, you, you don't necessarily need a whole heap of human capital in that process as well. So yeah, there's no reason why that Australia can't have a renaissance and get um, you know, get back into making sure that we, we haven't sold the farm.

Speaker A: So no wrap manufactured ah here locally in Australia.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's wonderful. And you know, the, the sad truth of it is there's been a whole different manufacturing business that have gone, that have, haven't survived. So you know, they've had to sell their product at you know, Gray's auction or their machines and stuff. And so I picked up a whole heap of them and I'm reusing them. So you know, once again the cost of capital is really low and blah, blah, blah, you know, to kind of the story writes itself. It's good.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, these machines, if you look after them, can last forever. So you know, we, we've got them back up and running again.

Speaker A: Incredible. Now I know you're only a few weeks in terms of the actual official launch, but what's your kind of view of the outlook the next few years for no Wrap? Like where do you, where do you see this business going?

Speaker B: You know, we're going to manufacture in Australia for the Australian and New Zealand market. And then we will um, you know we're getting tools made now to start manufacturing in the States. So you know, out in our Frank Green business, our Frank Green warehouse in America, we'll also have some molding machines that are, that are you know, doing no wrap. So there's some synergies there. Also in the UK and then also in Asia we're gonna um, and then in Europe too. You know, you can imagine somewhere like Venlo or somewhere where you know, the massive right here hubbing in Europe will be manufacturing there as well. So that's what's, that's what's going to happen. And I'd like to think that you know, maybe not a household name, no rap, but it will be, you know, a logistics um, you know, well known name around, around the world. And, and the products will you know, get um, you know, that they'll get advanced and there'll be extra things that come out like so we've got the, the product now that's for you know, um, internal loads and external loads. Our no wrap has a vertical strap, uh, loop and lock strap so you can transfer um, port pallets from you know say Frank Green to David Jones. As I said before, um, we'll also bring out some technology around. You know, imagine robots, um, actually de stuffing containers and um, and putting no wrap on pallets as well. So we will, that's where we will be. You know, there's a heavy investment at the moment in, in robotics and um, making things, you know, just even more irresistible. So no one can say, you know, that no wraps. Not the best, you know, the best idea. We kind of, we kind of say internally, you know, no rap is for logistics. What the hills hoist was for households. You know, it's um, it's that type of invention because it is so damn simple but effective.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I can see like from, from the chat with you, you kind of just like you see that this is where the future's heading. Like it's a no brainer for you, um, that, that this is the future. If you were advising maybe a logistics owner or a CEO, one thing that they should be getting ahead of over the next few years, maybe it's to do with the, you know, the scope 3 or the ESG side, but where would your advice be to them? Uh, for anyone listening, like what one shift should they be getting ahead of?

Speaker B: Ah, well, you know, labor to capital trade off. I'd be, you know, streamlining my operations and using the wonderful technology and robotics that's out there now. So you know, and, and it's not so you replace humans. It's, it's so humans can do m more value adding activities and the analysis around it. Um, that, that's where I would uh, I would be and I, and I don't think you need to go and spend a billion dollars to be able to do that, you know and, and it might be just wait a bit too. You know, we're definitely on a precipice of you know, what Musk is doing and all those other um, technologies are out there. I think in the next couple of years they'll become a lot very economical like robots today. You know it depends on what brand but they're getting under 100 grand U.S. um, but, but they have been up over 300, 400. So in the future that you know they'll give you a payback of less than a year as well. And I think as soon as you can get them to be less than 100 years under uh, a year, um, payback, you, you kind of, you kind of get on with it. Um, yeah. And obviously of course I want everyone to be using no wrap and the technologies that we come out with, with, with that as well for sure.

Speaker A: And for people listening like what's the first step? If they're interested in no wrap and, and you know, this has piqued their interest. What's the first step? Where should they go?

Speaker B: And go straight to you know, um, norap.com and, or reach out via our contact us form@hellorap.com and then you know, we'll, we'll get back to you and we'll, you know, we, we're gonna come and see you. That's probably the first thing we're going to do. We'll bring out kids and we will sit down with you and go through it. This is not about a, you know, here's this um, you know and go fend for yourself. It is a very ah, concierge bespoke service. Um, particularly in the first instance because we're learning valuable information and building and building information so we can make the implementation easier for others.

Speaker A: And I'd imagine you guys would be iterating constantly based on user feedback and things like that as well. Right.

Speaker B: There already is a pipeline of improvements that we're making to the, to the product and you actually don't need to make them, but we're going to make them anyway. Right. Perceptions are important. So you know, all those things will come out and you know, it's just like iPhone, right? IPhone version one. We're up to 18 now. We will, we will get better and we need to. It needs to become so irresistible. And if you're not using no wrap, it's not on you, it's on us because we haven't made it irresistible.

Speaker A: All well said. Well said. Ben, is there anything else that you wanted to cover off? Uh, about no rap or.

Speaker B: That's it. Yeah, you'll be by now.

Speaker A: No. Good stuff. It's really, really interesting. It's. It's a topic that, um. Look, I, I certainly didn't put too much thought behind it, but. But having this chat has been very interesting and, and I think it's certainly going to be at the forefront of a lot of logistics, leaders, minds, um, you know, especially as we're all heading to sustainability and, um, working towards a better and safe, safer climate as well. So, um, all the best. All the best with, uh, no wrap. And, yeah, look forward to seeing your progress.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks a lot, Sam.

Speaker A: Awesome. Thanks, Ben. Cheers.