Finance Leadership & Sustainability in Africa - Budgeting, ESG, and Climate Risk for CFOs

Ebrima Sawaneh: Welcome to another exciting episode of the Future CFO Podcast where we dive into

Mamoudou Esfati: leadership, career management and the latest trends

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Mamoudou Esfati: and share this episode with your network.

Ebrima Sawaneh: Welcome to another podcast of Future CFO Institute. And today we have a young Gambian, uh, an accountant, a uh, finance professional who has also built interest in the areas of sustainability and public policies and objective is to have a conversation with him on the team about finance, leadership and sustainability. Welcome Mr. Mamoudou Esfati.

Mamoudou Esfati: Thank you very much, Mr. Sawane. I'm glad to be on this platform.

Ebrima Sawaneh: Uh, thank you very much once again for uh, taking your time having this conversation about the finance leaders and our roles in sustainability. But before we go into that, I think it would be good for our readers to know a bit about you, uh, your career journey. I know you've been in auditing, you've been in banking and finance, and today you are serving as a, uh, head of Finance at nawic. But if you can tell us a bit about your career journey and what uh, inspire you out of many other interests that you build towards sustainability.

Mamoudou Esfati: Thank you very much. Um, well, basically I would start from saying that um, I'm from the village, I'm from, from pudding. And that's why I did most part of my education. And then I moved to Lusrad High School, studied the ACCA and also the certified Public accountant courses and I did some accounting courses in relation to sustainability. And later in 2023 I got into sustainability and that was because I got a scholarship to study in South Korea, the Career Development Institute. So it's a national university, um, purposely for the public services, uh, those in the public service to learn about different public policy instruments. So that's why I studied. But again, I started my career in the uh, in the internal audit functions with the credit unions for a couple of years. National association of Cooperative Credit Unions, nacuk. And then I switched my career to the banking. Spent about three years at Megabank as an internal auditor, uh, then got an opportunity with Gazette, the German International Development Corporation. Uh, that was a security sector reforms project where I worked as a, ah, financial controller. And then I got an opportunity to work with the World bank, um, project on fiscal management with the Ministry of Finance. So that was the, the project that supported the digitalization of the procurement process and uh, also the, the tax Systems in the Gambia. So and then I joined. Now I think Narak has influenced my entire decision on sustainability because uh, when I joined narc I got to understand more about how energy contributes. So um, global warming. And as a finance person I think it was the role of finance role plays a major part because we play from. The role we play starts from the onset, uh in terms of uh project development, uh in terms of procurement, in terms of project evaluations, financial evaluation and technical evaluations and all the way to project implementation. So I see an opportunity that you know, if I want to contribute to climate change as a finance person I need to understand the area, the industry. That was why I got into um, the sustainability area, studied um, finance and macroeconomics. But the public policy as a whole, um, for you to grow in your, in your career, the later part of it you would, you would realize that most of the work you do is about public policy. So that's what got me interested into the area. Thank you.

Ebrima Sawaneh: Yeah, thank you very much. I like the fact that you mentioned m that in terms of climate change it impact finance play a key role from the development of that project. And to give an example in where we work when we are buying an equipment in the areas of Ford, uh we tend to ask how would this equipment contribute towards our climate, uh our goals as in, in order to reduce carbon emission that the company is uh emitting. So that means if finance professionals understand how to go about developing a project, how to go about allocating the capital that becomes key. And I think we'll come back to the issue of capital um allocation. But when we talk about the project development it means we are setting up some goals or we are setting up some targets there. And for us to assess those goals it means we have to report and um, globally we know sustainability uh reporting, so called ESG reporting, climate change reporting, there are many of them but of course there are some few standards that are uh becoming commonly accepted. And of not long ago we saw uh IFRS has set up a body on sustainability reporting regarding standard on S1 and S2. Now my question is from what you've seen generally in the Gambia and also more especially for the state enterprise, how prepared are ah we for us to adopt reporting on sustainability in whether from a local policy point of view or from international standard uh applications.

Mamoudou Esfati: So thank you very much. I think um, we're very far away from it but uh, of recent we've seen some policy development by the government and that's where everything begins with. So if you have the right regulatory frameworks and policies that will guide you. I know the SOE Commission act also has talked briefly, I think the governance framework has also talked briefly on uh, sustainability and esg, but there has not been much which has been mentioned on what exactly is expected from the public enterprises. The whole ESG reporting or climate reporting? Sustainability reporting. For me, in my view it should begin with um, policy formulations because if you don't have those policies in place, you might have a challenge in ensuring that you comply with the regulations in terms of reporting, in terms of accounting or even in terms of disclosure. So, but again, the good thing is, um, now the cdp, the carbon disclosure projects have given us uh, that incentive to uh, disclose carbon information voluntarily. And I think uh, this is where the public enterprises should build, um, an opportunity to start doing something. And again, you cannot, um, implement this, um, climate carbon reporting without beginning with uh, budgets. So um, I think I will take an example from uh, the institution I work for. I mean this year we're currently working on the 2026 budget and we have seen some major steps taken by the executives. We try to at least create a budget line for sustainability. So for me I think that is a major achievement. If the budget should be approved by, you know, the board and subsequently by the SOE Commission, this can be emulated. Because if you don't have a budget for um, the sustainability activities, it becomes difficult for you to track, report and make a disclosure.

Ebrima Sawaneh: It's very key that budgeting, because budgeting is our goals. And again we talk about the state enterprise. We know with the SOE Commission now there are performance standards that have been implemented. It would be good to see sustainability also is part of those objectives. Uh, that's what we do uh, internally every year. Uh, we always don't um, set up only financial goals. We set up, uh, ESG goal. And when we talk about esg, it's beyond climate alone. Climate is one of the big factors. But the governance aspect is there. How the organizations operate, how it complies with the local rules and regulations, international guidelines. But also there are social issues. Now how do you think the importance are for reporting beyond the organization? Why do you think it's important for us to make this report available to other stakeholders? Are there benefits that comes with this reporting?

Mamoudou Esfati: Yeah, absolutely there are. So I'll just take you, um, just to give you a story of the research I've done. Um, when I was in the Mimosas program, it was basically on the link between ES rating and the financial performance of a company. So we try to look at three different metrics, the E, the S and the E and how each of them links to the performance. So I work for an energy company and often at times M. Before we even implement energy projects, you would realize that there would be people who will be affected by the projects. Um, and because you want to establish a transmission line, for example, and the line has to pass through their properties, so you may likely have to take those properties from them and that becomes a social issue. Now what do they, what, what, what, what would they definitely, you know, be living on if that is where their farmlands are? In fact, that is where their properties are. Ah, you need to be able to assess how that could have an impact on the livelihood of those people. But again there are some regulations in that area because if you want to establish some of those projects, the National Environmental Agency has uh, esi, they would, they would, they would recommend that you do the impact assessment. For me, I think this is a, uh, basic of starting the ESG reporting. Because once you do the environment and social impact assessment, it now gives you different metrics or different categories of your, your stakeholders who are affected by the project you will be implementing and you now have mitigant strategies on how do I make sure that you know each of these stakeholders interest has been protected. So yes, finance is important, but each of the numbers in the balance sheet is being driven by these two factors. It's either by governance or by social. So it could be your uh, internal staff, for example, you know, your customers, your suppliers and even the general citizens. Each of them has an interest in what you do. So for me, I think, um, in adopting the ESG reporting and also adopting the sustainability bit of it, the environment, the climate part of it is important, yes, the environment side of it is important. But then you also need to understand that even that climate impact, even that environmental impact has been caused by people and us and also by, you know, weak governance. Because if you have strong governance in place that should be able to monitor and um, control how people behave and there should be punishment when people behave. And that's when governance comes into play. The social bit of it comes in, in terms of how do you bring them into understanding the impact, the role it will play, linking it to the strategic objectives. So it's a whole lot of things, uh, that in fact the climate bit of it would be taken care of if the governance and the social bit of it uh, are well, um, put in place. So for me, you know, each of these metrics should be should be taken into, should be given equal uh, treatment and should also be given equal opportunities in terms of ensuring that you know, the organization grows sustainably.

Ebrima Sawaneh: You mentioned a very important point on the eras of uh, people. You gave an example of uh, project affected, uh, people, uh, sometimes many organizations will require you to do uh, esi. And I remember I've worked in AFC for over 12, 15 years now. And I know one key thing is that AFC is one of the many uh, financiers of major project. Number one thing they looked at. Do you have any negative point in your project around things like esg, if maybe you took a land from uh, some people without giving them the right compensation, uh, institutions like afc Insurance like ifc, World bank, imf, I mean uh, African bank would not want to look at it afdb. So in fact there has been one of the global standards which is often called IFC Performance standard which often will assess you because there are procedures. I know sometimes people will feel like, oh, this is our land, it's a government land, we can take it from them and give it to the other people without compensating them. But no, as per IFC standard, there is a procedure, there is a way you have to uh, sort of compensate those who are affected. Even the people's uh, let's say where they used to was it in some countries I've seen that they will say this is our shrine. You can't uh, move them. I've seen a project where they have to circle it. So this is important for people in finance because when you are raising money, you already know you think I have a good project, I just simply go to banks, they're going to finance it for me. And uh, before you realize you got this uh, bottleneck locally, I'm not sure there is any requirement that are imposed by our local banks when they are doing this finance uh, for project within the country. But beyond that, are there opportunities for the bankers in terms of building a policy around a more stronger policy around ESG within the country or let's say within uh, Africa in general?

Mamoudou Esfati: Absolutely. I uh, mean, I'm not sure I'm aware of any sort of regulations that regulates the banks in terms of how they finance projects. But by making sure that the ESG is put into consideration. But I see a lot of opportunity in this. There was a customer, I wouldn't name the name of the customer, but he was involved in uh, where a community actually protested against the sand mining of that particular customer. So as a result the crane trucks and all uh, excavators and equipment he used for mining were burnt. So when they were born, the facility was almost going bad. And then, and then I said to myself, well then this is, this is where ES is important. Because if you are doing that sign minding, you know, you should be able to give us an ESI report and the ESI report should be able to be able to guide us whether this investment is worthwhile in terms of not only finance, but even the social and governance bit of it. So in this particular case it was about the social. The community has an issue with the land ownership and they wouldn't want the com, this, this particular customer to continue mining in their land because that has some environmental degradation issues. So for me, uh, I was looking at and said, well, in terms of IFRS, 9, we'd be obliged to create a provision for that facility. But if had it been there was ESC esd, properly implemented and structured, we would have at least make a proper assessment and in fact the impairment laws would have already been passed at the initial stage of issuing that liability rather than waiting until the customer had that issue, the trucks were born. But you know, all of these things. Sometimes when, when I get to understand, read about esg, I try to link it to that bit of it. I said this is an opportunity for the banks. You can help a lot of companies to grow. You can issue green bonds for example, and now you have a lot of projects that are in place. So once you issue those green bonds and look for businesses that are definitely promoting green and you give them those facilities. But, but you would also make sure that even if you have not, even if you are not, they are not doing full blown ESD reporting, but at least provide your basic metrics to say you must take A, B and C of the ESD metrics, then we know that's the beginning. So as you grow one, two years into it, you learn to, you would you, you become more experienced in it and you will see your weaknesses. So yes, there are a lot of opportunities for the banks. In fact most of the uh, financing available for international, major international financial organizations now they make sure that you follow those ESZ metrics so that very soon Gambia would be trapped, you know, into this. Because I mean, I know of recent, our partners, the World bank, the imf, they started asking for these things and anytime in um, management meetings I bring this up to them that look, we will be trapped into this. Before we are trapped, why don't we in fact start to change the entire structures because you know I can tell you for so our organizations do not even have at a governance level there is no structure that ensures that we have sustainability within the company. And oftentimes when you talk about ESG or sustainability the first thing that comes to our mind is health and safety. I tell them well health and safety is a component of sustainability but itself as a standalone is not sustainability. Until and unless the organization structure at uh, the governance level is being able to incorporate sustainability we wouldn't be able to do uh much and we would be trapped because the whole world is moving towards that direction. So I think the central bank and the Ministry of Finance they are trying to be honest of recent some2 weeks ago hours in a validation of the Gambia climate financing strategy document and, and this document tries to looks at how do we promote investment into green areas. So, so green investment. So I know if we have those policies at national level then the banks need to quickly act because the fact that you have those policies in place they are preparing for the capital market to be more effective and efficient and for the capital market to participate to be more efficient the private sector need to drive it and that's when we need to start this education on ESG and have those policies. So for me I think at a national level there are some significant efforts being made. So at the banking sector level the central bank can also speed up, you know uh, make sure they make uh alignment to the same policies and ensure that the banks are you know regulated and the regulation also brings in sustainability into, into into the equation.

Ebrima Sawaneh: I very much agree with that. I also observed that of recent there have been uh number of policy directions at the government level and uh now is to see how best we take this to private sector. Even if it's going to be a voluntary policy where people can adopt them in a phase form then maybe another one or two years later we can make it compulsory. But indeed uh, we could be trapped in some areas. You know it very well this carbon adjustment or something similar that's coming out of uh Europe. I think there are some areas of Europe they will not accept you to export to them if you don't achieve certain level uh of uh climate uh uh impact assessment that's not being done or reduce your carbon emission. They may not even allow you to export to Europe. Uh the cost of borrowing also can be impacted by what type of climate uh impact you are doing currently. I know one of the port we are able to borrow at a very cheap rate. We wanted to put solar on our uh, inside our port and through that we are able to raise, uh, financing much more, uh, cheaper. Let's go back to climate. We go back to the climate, uh, transition. We looked at the role of finance, uh, what do you think for finance leaders could be their core role in helping organizations to reduce their climate impact and the transition process. What can finance leaders do there?

Mamoudou Esfati: The role of finance, uh, is critical in this area because most of the projects, even before we implement them at the assessment level is done by finance. So the risk assessment, starting with the financial modeling. So before you get into any investment, you would be required to do the financial model. So the finance leaders can now try to at least bring in climate stress tests into the financial model. When you are doing your different, um, um, scenario testing, you can bring in to say, assuming that there is drought in the country, how could this impact my profitability? Because you need to consider those things. So we know, uh, climate change is not only limited to global um, warming, but the rise in sea level and also drought. So we've seen those experiences where there is flooding, uh, in certain areas. So if you are doing business as a finance person, you know, you need to even start with that to, to at least do a stress test on climate. So give some metrics and I'm trying to look at the climate information. Maybe you can check the last five years, the last three years, what has been in the, what has been the flood trend for the past five years or what has been the heat trend for the past five years. So if you have, uh, for example, you are a financier and you have a customer who is interested into agriculture, and before you even give that facility that loan, part of your assessment is to do climate tests there. And this is not the practice because this is when sustainability and ESG things will have to play a major role. Here you can test to say if the heat level has gone by 5%, the crops the farmer is going to cultivate, will they be heat resistant? You know, if the crops are not heat resistant, you know, the produce of the, of the, of the customer would definitely be poor. And when the produce are poor, how would this customer repay the finance, the facility that has been issued? So this is, this is a, uh, role that is mainly played by finance personnel. So it's either by the credit officers, which are equally finance personnel, the treasury officers, or their finance analysis or financial accountants or management accountants. So for me, you know, it should start at that level where you are designing the projects, try to consider the impact of climate so on the side of flooding as well. So we know Banjul and certain part of talending and other areas are uh, experiencing flood. So if you have a client who wants to finance a business or in fact build a headquarters around that end, you can assess to say if the sea level should go up by 2 or 3%. There might be potential float and this could impact the business. There might not be any business activity for a week, for a month or the whole of raining season. How would this impact the sales of that business? So that needs to be put into consideration and that is the beginning. So foreign there, you know, I always try to link that to the concept of accounting. You know we are known to say, well you know, the basic definition is to record, interpret, classify and make disclosures of financial information. So that's the same concept which is applicable to climate accounting. The first you should be able to record, interpret, classify and make a disclosure of those climate information that will impact the balance sheet. So for me the whole, you know, supply chain or in fact the whole chain for from the starting to the end, finance play a major role because from the appraisal level is finance to the implementation level, finance always play a major role. And even to the reporting side, finance play a major role. So that's why there's an opportunity for the finance professional to always try to at least make some voluntary, uh, even though the regulations are not, you know, strictly enforced on us. But we can start to take those small, small steps to do few assessment. And the data is available. You can get climate data online, you can even go to central bank and see the inflation rate, how climate change and inflation rate uh, do correlate. So this can be a major information for us in terms of um, appraising projects, reporting and making disclosures. Thank you.

Ebrima Sawaneh: Yeah, yeah. I think these are the ideas of understanding, uh, a bit of data is important for us in finance. You gave a very good example that most people may think they are remote. Inflation and the climate change factors, they are very much related. Because if assuming that the climate change factors cause more drought in our society, let's say we are not producing rice, uh, you and I are from crr, known to be the biggest, uh, rice produce production, uh, region of the country. Assuming there has been a change in the climate factors and rice production has been going very poor, all of us are going to be buying rice. Could that impact us in terms of the price? We know if the supply is not increasing, the demand is here, price goes up and inflation comes in. But elsewhere we buy rice from countries like Indonesia. That's where Gambia buy rice from Indonesia, India, Pakistan, other places. These countries are also dealing with their own climate factors. They are also dealing with their own social factors of recent of the time. Now we see a lot of Gen Z protests happening around the world. Some of these things are social factors. And I was reading something, one of these newspapers, I think whether it was um, on Bloomberg or New York Times, one of the common things that they observe among all these countries that are doing the recent protests, one key factor has been flawed energy issues that the youth are complaining about. So their own ESG issues could be a problem for us as, as a country. And um, this is very complex because part of it is because we are, we are importing some items from this country. So when they have an issue we also will be having an issue. But let's go back again to local uh, matters in the Gambia from a corporate policy point of view. You spoke about their data and I agree with you. Companies can analyze, even if you don't want to disclose it to everyone, you can analyze your impact and manage it within your, your board and your senior management. But what are some of those policies? Because part of the problem I felt for many of our accountants who have gone to school, probably they have not upgraded them themselves. When I was doing the acca, climate was not a big topic that you would even see in an ACCA exam and universities as well and many of my level and my uncles and probably finance directors or above, so they have no clue and they have not update themselves on this. But what are some of those policy changes you think the corporate companies in the Gambia can adopt that help them to play a key roles in reducing their impact on the society and make

Mamoudou Esfati: more positive, you know, all of this begins with the global policies. So you know, in, in 2015 when there was uh, a Paris agreement, countries have signed for NDC's their national determination contribution. Gambia has made several of this. Most of them are in relations to energy, in relations to, you know, uh, fisheries, in relation to biodiversity and all those, those areas. So each and every national determination contribution the country has given can, can, can be adopted at a national level. And I think this is why the government is taking that direction in terms of building those policies that will address each and every, you know, contribution, uh, NDC is made by the country. So the, the, the global level is at the NDC level. So to have those policies and at national level we have some of those ones. But there are some companies in the country, for example, the banks that are uh, obliged to report on the IFRS. So the IFRS S1 and S2 I know very soon, I think if my memory serves me, by 2027 it should be mandatory to report on uh, IFRS S1 and S2. So as a result I think the upper year, the fact that we are in the budget sessions now, so most of these companies or corporations should try to understand that there would be a policy change and that would be a regulation change shortly because you know the, the, the if you're IFRS compliant you either have to be in or out. So you need to make sure you start planning for that. And I think that is why it's important that we have this session now. Uh, we talk about it in, they can incorporate it in their budget sessions and understand the fact that the policy that is going to trap them in a year or two times they need to start tracking at least by 2025 if it's too late. But 2026 account you can start to implement something that is in relation to the ESG reporting. So most of these policies also that are in place would soon come into effect because some of them would certainly be approved at national level. So if they are approved now, it's a matter of you know, a uh, law and you have to implement it. So the SOE commission also is, is asking the uh, the, the state owned enterprises to be IFRS compliant. So if you have not even started collecting the data and reporting that's changing policy would trap us. So, so for me you know we need to start disclosing voluntarily like you said, even if you don't do it at your published account, but your management account that you do publish, you can have it. So I mean I think as of last year I started doing something in our management account try to at least look at the number of um, staff, the staff composition, the male to the female ratio in different areas, try to give a comment about it. And then we also have our gender committee that is also ensuring that women are empowered, provide training, free screening for women. So those are all ESG metrics in terms of the social side of it. So we also try to look at what environmental impact do we have. So we developed some tools here and there to m measure the amount of carbon uh, that we can, we can emit from at least with a minimum from scope one. So, so, so once you start doing at a bare minimum, by the time the regulation comes into play voluntarily, if you do that voluntarily by the time the regulation comes into play, at least you have an experience in preparing the, the, the climate Related disclosures in your account. So for me is uh majority of the accountants, you know after studying, maybe it was not in the, in the books but they are there now. I think it's time for us to be more educated and then also uh, try to do a refresher programs in terms of climate change because it's here to stay and, and we have an opportunity as finance professional to be the drivers of this because that is what is happening in all over the place. Most of these ESG reporting, carbon accounting, sustainability issues are being driven by finance professionals. So this is where I see a lot of opportunity for us as well. It can be challenging at the beginning trying to uh, navigate through all different policies understanding them. But the good thing is you can start doing your voluntary disclosures and once you start doing that uh, that's a major step towards the adoption of a full blunt uh sustainability reporting.

Ebrima Sawaneh: Yeah, uh, I think you gave some metrics there that you started reporting uh upon. And uh, similarly that's how we started in the ARISE group. ARISE as a tool, uh two to three major verticals. The bigger one being our rsiip. They currently started publishing it uh every year uh, they publish their uh, their impacts. You can see them on their website. But our vertical support and logistics we started internally we trying to take some of those practices from our other part of RICE and bring it to our port side. So we get metrics done, we get independent assessment being done on our carbon uh emission and we looked at social metrics and we report on them to the board and then we discuss for example how do we ensure we have the right schemes. Because these changes uh, when you look at them for somebody who doesn't understand the effect of what our business is involved in, maybe thinking we are doing for the others. But when you look at deeper, deeper you are doing this for yourself. Imagine building people's skills, people's issues. You are not doing that for the employee, you are doing that so the organization get itself. Today we have uh, a AI AI. Uh everybody's talking about AI AI now if you don't build the people to understand AI other companies can be better than you. So these are part of the sustainability of your business. In fact some business are going to close down because there is a uh, AI coming in place with similar thing on the climate related matter. ESG is important companies uh, to make uh investment in, in that. Now let's, let's talk about careers in sustainability because I know most of the time when we hear sustainability, climate matters, people think about scientists you have to have a master's or Ph.D. in uh, climate matters. But as we discuss here today, we know that sustainability is not about climate matters alone. There are multiple things you can get on sustainability. But based on what you see, somebody who has expertise, skills and knowledge in finance, what are some of those career opportunities that exist in the area of sustainability?

Mamoudou Esfati: In terms of the whole sustainability spectrum you have a lot of things happening. You may not be the, how do you call the all, the all rounder person for everything, but you look for different people. But because as finance professional, particularly accountants, we've been reporting for the longest time and we are comfortable with data, this is where we have a lot of opportunity to grab here. So in terms of all of these things, the sustainability from collection of data, that is the primary role. So uh, if you are uh, accounts payable officer, for example, you have a career in this because when invoice comes into play, for example Scope one will tell us all activities that may relate to the direct emission of carbon. So if you are an accounts payable officer, you can start build your career from this level and from here. Once invoice comes in, try to make an assessment. Am I paying um, um, an air ticket for an executive who will be traveling to Abu Dhabi for example. So most of the time the etiquette will have an amount of carbon that will be emitted for the travel duration. So you can start to collect that data. In fact some systems are built in such a way that the accounting system incorporates the um, um, climate related uh, information when you are recording the accounts payable information. So at that level if you have an air ticket to purchase, you may have the amount of carbon that will be emitted for that particular travel. So if you also purchase a petroleum product, you can take a record of that because you can calculate each of the carbon disclosures based on the cost or in fact the direct method. So as an accounts payable officer at that level you have an opportunity to build your career in sustainability and esg because it begins with data collection. Once you understand that data ABC is needed for a disclosure is a good thing for you. So the second level is once you are processing those invoice also you can take track of, you know, what percentage of these invoices are directed towards, you know, investing in our people, investing in our staff, they call it uh, corporate social responsibilities. So you try to look at what percentage of the budget is being directed towards the corporate social responsibility because it's also a metrics in the sustainability spectrum. So all of this you can Start to build your skills from the accounts payable level where you are processing invoices. Start at your own, at that level. Try to export, you know, uh, export data. Extract data of your accounts payable listing and try to see what is the industry of each and every supplier. You can do that grouping using Excel, for example. Once you know the category of each of your suppliers, you can try to analyze, oh, what is each and every supplier doing? What is the impact of each and every supplier on the business we are doing? Because that is going to give you that level. So if you are also a, uh, uh, finance professional, you are a branch manager, for example, or a marketer, you can look at your customer base. So once you look at your customer base, you can, you can export that information and look at the composition of your customer base into agriculture. So try to think of this way, if we have 20 customers, or this is my agricultural customer base segment. Agricultural segment is about 20% of my customer base. What if we contribute to the decarbonization of these customers? How would this impact my sustainability goals? So those are kind of things, you know, sometimes we think it's more scientific, but, but it's not. It's about how you try to align with the metrics that are set. A, uh, simple example of a customer segment can help you. You segregate each of your customers. And anybody can do this. It's just a matter of how do you record, how do you analyze that data and how do you ensure that those data also meet the climate objectives? Because at the end of the day, whatever ESG metric we set as a corporate, uh, uh, as a body, it all comes into support the NDCs. In fact, I once read a report said even before the ESG comes into practice, the UN has already published a report on who Cares Wins. So this was even before the concept of ESG comes into play. And what that thing was doing is, you know, is trying to guide us in terms of uh, our investment. So what do you do to make sure that, you know, you uh, care about the environment? So that level, when they set up the climate targets, countries said, okay, these are uh, NDCs. And it's from those NDCs that the companies also set their targets to align it to the corporate target of the United Nations. And we used to reduce the greenhouse gas emission to at least 1.5 degrees Celsius. So it's not so scientific. It's just about how do you try to understand the source of each of this data and how do you play with it? Thank you.

Ebrima Sawaneh: Thank you very much. And uh, uh, it's good to talk about some of the, the international platforms like the UN and I know there is uh, I think COP30 coming up. I think uh, by next month COP30 should be coming up. I think November if I, if I get the time very well. Now one of the things sometimes I personally tend to argue or debate about the sustainability spectrum. Uh, if we simplify it, we have the environment which is the, the E. You ah, have the social and uh, the governance. So before I give my, my view there, I wanted to know which one do you think, uh, among these three, if we are to prioritize Africa should be giving more priority to ecde, A CDS or a cdg? Because I had a debate on this. I remember last year when I attended the course, uh, I did a course with. I uh, think it was um, said business school. So. But no, what was your view? Which one of these three you think, uh, Africa, we should be giving more emphasis. I know it's very conflicting sometimes.

Mamoudou Esfati: Yeah, absolutely is, um, it's conflicting but you know, with all the climate change issues, it's more of, you know, adaptive. We said is either you adopt, you mitigate. So, so you have to look at what impact do you have on the climate. So for Africa are ah, we more of. Do we have a severe impact in terms of the climate rating? Because if you look at the CO2 that has been emitted by the whole of Africa is even less than, you know, maybe 20% of what is emitted by China alone, for example. So, so in that case, are we supposed to be doing more of mitigation or adoption? So in my view it should be more of adoption because, you know, what technologies do we have in place? Do we even have the money to, to be able to um, mitigate? No, we don't. We, what we can do is to adapt. So that being said, I think uh, the S is more important for, for us than the E and the G because the S is where the people's life are concerned. Because you know, climate change is a whole lot of issues and once it happens, it does not know whether your country is poor or rich. It happens. The heat level coming today and as I am talking to you, my AC is not on, but I'm already sweating. So we are experiencing that October is the hottest month of the year. So if October being the hottest month of the year, well, we can link it to the global warming. I mean, is uh, it my cause? Is it my doing? I'm not emitting much as as compared to what other countries are doing. But I'm suffering more. So that's why I think, you know, my, my interest should be protected. So taking myself as an example, I'm sweating. So I think the S should be protecting me more, you know, that I have more than the G and the

Ebrima Sawaneh: E. Yeah, no, I agree. And that's my, uh, view as well. S is very important for uh, Africa, like you clearly mentioned or articulated, is that, uh, we contribute very, very, very small level, uh, of carbon emission compared to other countries. In fact, if that's what some school of thought are saying, if there will be any, the other continents will be compensating, uh, Africa for it. If you want to have a justice in this whole transition ideology, uh, we can adopt, but the social issues we are dealing with. We have over, uh, some said over 600 million people, uh, in Africa who doesn't have electricity, they don't have access to electricity. So when I look at those situations, how do you convince, in fact, I remember that particular debate I had, uh, in that class. Then I told them, you know, was back then when I was a young boy, we used to go to the booth and cut some trees and use them to do cooking. We use that to cook. We do everything. We have to go and cut trees. I mean, at that time, how does somebody convince me to say, you know what, you don't have electricity, you want to cook and you don't have any gas, don't cut the tree. Of course I'm um, contributing at that time to deforestation. But the idea is because we don't have any other access. So it means for us in Africa, we have to improve the level of earnings for other people so that they can even adopt this technology. Even a gas to buy even a gas is expensive. If you don't have any money at all, you won't be able to buy a gas to be able to refill it. So it means that we have bigger problem is us. And um, there is nothing we can do if we don't bring the elements like you mentioned earlier, the inclusion, supporting people to invest in them. They go to school, then the poverty rate reduce. We know China has done it. Uh, we were able to change the country in less than 40 years. So it's something that is also possible for Africa. And I know we follow environmental matters which are very key. They are going to impact us more than any other continent. But part of that adaptation will not be able to happen if we don't, uh, increase people's level of earning for them to be able to join that. Now, before we start conclusion, what will your view? How do we create more awareness and about the climate in the country and more especially for adaptation for people to be able to adopt because the effects are ah, there as you gave some examples before, how do you create more awareness for the others to be able to adopt to the effect of climate change?

Mamoudou Esfati: So for me it's more of incorporating it in our education. I think as early as the secondary school level they need to have at least climate change. I remember m once I was um, studying in Korea and that was this career day between us and the secondary school students where they came into our class and they had to do this mentor mentee relationship. So we had that relationship with the class and then they peer us with a, uh, with a, with a high school student and particularly if, I mean it was only for the foreign student by the way. So they try to understand what we learn in the energy policy, for example. We also try to explain to them what sort of energy mix do we have in Africa, what sort of policies do we have in place? And they were so interested and um, whilst I was interacting with them I said well these people will have a global understanding of the entire climate change. So, so that is going to give them an edge. They have not been to Africa but they have interacted with Africans at this level. So that is going to give them more awareness, in fact more education better than going to the school because the school will give you some notebooks, some textbook about how Africa works. But, but you work with someone who directly work for an energy company in Africa. And I'm telling you this is the energy mix there and this is how you know, these are the few policies we have in place to tackle climate change. So for me, you know the curriculum level at secondary school should start to at least introduce a course on climate change. So at the university level it should also be mandatory as a GR course for everybody to at least do climate change. So we can also try to divert our resources more into adoption and we equally have a lot of opportunities when it comes to climate adoption in the country because all these policies are coming into place for a potential carbon offset. So we should be prepared to understand it more. And then because we don't emit more and we have a lot of projects that we can implement in the Gambia, a lot of biodiversity projects we can implement that can give us potential market for carbon offset.

Ebrima Sawaneh: Yeah. And talking about the schools, last uh, week I was in a school, uh, here in Dubai through The courtesy of Arise foundation where we went to schools at uh this we are grade 11 students and we had a, almost a two hour session with them. We were just talking about climate change, uh, uh, impact where we talk about the impact on human lives, the impacts possibly on the future. And we spoke about uh adoption and it was very exciting when we saw students themselves were giving ideas as simple as oh we have to reduce the level of using papers that could help us. The students themselves now were understanding that because they consume more energy, that energy in their houses is also contributing towards the carbon emission. They are saying oh we should be switching off aces. So I think when we start that as you propose trying to bring it into our secondary school, maybe we have uh, some uh climate or impact uh clubs in schools and those ideas they can educate among themselves. Because sometimes the kids as we know can be using resources that are consuming more than uh, what we would want them to do. But we look at it from an economic point of view. If your child leave AC on the fan, only say oh you're going to finish all my car power. Now you're not looking at the emission. But when you think them about the importance of buying the car power is now is going to produce more power and as they produce more power they're going to emit more carbon and that will have uh, effect on both possibly today and the future. They could understand their role in contributing uh towards adoption of the, the climate change within the, the community.

Mamoudou Esfati: I think I just like to give you, even before we move forward just an example. I think this year Narek organized um, the water awareness program for a couple of you know, high schools. That was a sort of a competition, you know it was the water conservation program and they have given uh yes. So Nusrat participated, uh, Farafeni participated and I think Nasir participated. Amitage participated. In fact I think the third best schools were Amitage, Nusrat and uh me is Thereabar. So a couple of schools participated. So last week we've received a letter that you know we've received um, an acknowledgement that for example Amitage school which has participated and they won a prize. They have used the money to you know, buy materials uh, that will help conserve water. So that was a welcoming idea. So I said, you know, so the little things you do and, and, and, and believe in me, those high schools students had fantastic projects. Some of them were thinking of how can they even make the water cycle to, to, to harvest water. That was a project for some people. And if you harvest Water, you reduce navex demand in water production. Because we know sooner or later Gambia, we, we don't have issues with water pollution for now, but very soon this is coming. You know we've seen in certain areas like Bansang, Gundur areas, once you dig the bowl couple of years it has iron. So we know the salt is also moving towards the crr. If that happens our rice fields are in danger. So it will all become a salty water and that could have an impact on agriculture. So try to educate more and more people because the more we continue to use those waters the more the salt water also push towards the southern part of the Gambia. I mean the north towards the northern part of the Gambia. So you know those programs goes in a long way. And now we started to put this in our annual budget now as a water conservation program. So this gives opportunity to students. And just last week we were discussing that if we implement some of these projects, I mean the ideas they come in, we should not stop at organizing a quiz or a debate competition. But the ideas they come in, we should also make sure that we implement those ideas at least as a pilot project. So I think starting at that level can go a long way.

Ebrima Sawaneh: I like the idea of the rainwater harvesting and this is something. So I'll give you one example and one idea from a Gambia point of view. One example again, uh, talking about uh, where we work in our special economic zone in uh Rwanda, uh through our arise iip. What happens there? We have developed a system when the rainwater comes in it goes to one place and that rainwater is what we use to water all the flowers within the economic zones. So we don't necessarily have to use the water that's coming from the national water supplier. So that means it save us money at first place and second time reduce our level of consumption of water that is being uh, generated or produced by the national water supplier. Now I was one time chatting with somebody I said I imagine because usually in that challenging uh, juice one where the, the fire uh offices a lot of water there during the rainy season. One time I was passing by, I said I could imagine if we have a technology system where we build sort of kind of reservoir for the fire service themselves. All that water, everything will come and got captured in that reservoir and later we can process it, send it somewhere or fire service can keep that water as their reservoir in case there is fire. That's what they will pick it. They don't have to use narrative water today. I don't know where they get Their water from, from. But I could see that that water goes to, one can say wastage. You can take that water after you take a tank, you send it to the garden woman in Sukuta in Birikama, without necessarily digging a more big hole there. So I think this is just one of the many ideas that we can adopt, uh, in Indigambia.

Mamoudou Esfati: Absolutely. You know, it rains here yesterday. So today I was driving and there is uh, water all over the place. So that could help, you know, the amount of water we waste. Just take an example of a cow was sometime get so guilty, you know, taking my car to the cars. I try to, you know, was it myself. You know, sustainability can be expensive as well. If I take my car to the car, I mean, I don't even know the amount of water that is being wasted.

Ebrima Sawaneh: Yeah.

Mamoudou Esfati: And um, and because water is so cheap in the country, you know, let's just be fair. It's cheap, naive water is cheap, you know, compared to other countries. So, so the fact that water is cheap, a lot of people abuse it. So you know, you go to these car wash, uh, facilities and, and you know, if you have to account for the amount of water they use, it could be probably about six, seven liters. I mean seven sometimes, sorry, about 300, 400 liters. Because the tires alone, particularly when there is mud around it this rainy season, each of the tires can take about 20 liters. So by the time they are done, they must have exhausted at least close to 200 liters. So you alone has consumed more than 200 liters. And, and on average every person shouldn't consume more than, you know, in the United States will be around 75 liters. So in the Gambia it's estimated to be around 40, 50 liters. Shouldn't consume. So if you are consuming, you know, at least 200 liters in a day, just think of the impact your car is causing on the environment because that water we use will be required to use energy to supply the water. So you are not just contributing to water waste, but you're also contributing to wasting energy. And in fact, if you are taking more from the thermal sources, you also contribute to more in carbon emissions. So sometimes we just don't connect the two. But if you are able to connect how your, your small activity can have an impact on the climate, I think that can change uh, our behavioral pattern. But it's very difficult to change our behavior towards sustainability. It can be expensive and I understand. But again, you know, if you try to deal with it in the Long term, it becomes steep for you.

Ebrima Sawaneh: I very much agree, uh, with you, Mr. Fati. It requires a lot of behavioral changes and that will require more uh, awareness because some people don't even understand the effect. Because when we hear climate, for some people the climate is just the heat wave. That's what all they know about the climate. They don't even link it to the drought that, uh, may be happening. We, uh, see that it's still raining in the Gambia. In those days, by September, rain has already stopped. So it means something is, uh, shifting. And even the drought level as well. There are a lot of proofs you can hear from the scientists around the world is really changing, is changing. And this change comes with, uh, negative impact for many people, uh, millions of millions of people. So we are not exempted as a country because where we are standing as a nation, we are hardly going to be affected by any form of, uh, uh, uh, drought. Yeah. So, Mr. Fatih, thank you very much. It's been a very good conversation, uh, having, uh, talking to you about sustainability and leadership. But, uh, before we end, uh, this podcast today, I think it will be important. I always, uh, say that the platform is here for our young people. So that's why we call it feature ca because we are trying to advise the leaders of tomorrow. Uh, it could be cfo, it could be a business owner or any other profession. What are some of the advice you have for young people? I know in your, uh, part time life you do lectures in the schools, you do a lot of awareness on personal finance, you write. So beyond sustainability, you, you work a lot with young people. But what advice do you have for young people, especially those who are uh, in the gambling?

Mamoudou Esfati: I think, um, one advice would be mentorship. So, you know, I, I would take you as one example. So in those days when I was going to Nusrat, I used to come to your house for accounting. So that was this topic called, uh, control account. It can be a little bit tricky. And then also another topic called issue of shares usually is the last, is the last topic, uh, you do in high school accounting. So the first call, second call, allotment account and things like that. So I remember, you know, I came to your house and then you put me through. So the next day when I went to class, you know, I told the guys, well, I know how to deal with this. So I had to take them through and I was bluffing. So a lot of them came to me. So I do a lot of those things because it helps me, because I try to go to you. You know, we, we learn topics well before we even cover in the class. So by the time I'm in the class, I've already mastered those things. So that helps me mold. So when I finished secondary school, you know, I got an admission at the school of nursing because of, uh, you know, my guardianship. She wanted me to go into the nursing. So I got an admission, but that was not my passion. So I would have been in the medical field today. But, but all of those things have changed because of mentorship. I've had mentors, even these career progressions. You know, I remember a couple of times when I want to change my job, I would seek advice from you. You know, if there are areas that you cannot advise, you will refer me to people like Seneca, for example. You know, when I wanted to take the World bank, uh, project job, you advise on those things. When I wanted to sift to Narek, again, you advise on those things. So I had to seek those advice. And um, because this really helped me the career progression. For you to grow in your career, you just need to have people that have passed through. You know, they have had a lot of experience, they have success experience and they had failures. So if you put all of this together, it can help you really grow. So most, uh, of us, you know, uh, sometimes this is what we lack. We lack um, mentorship at the area, early, early, early stage of our careers. And if you lack that, it, it makes it very difficult for you. Even in the prophets, they had mentors, there are people that they go to when they don't, uh, when they don't understand issues or even if revelations came to them, they will have to seek mentorship. So Prophet was a perfect example. When he received the revolution, he rose to the wife who was a mentor, so, so to, to assist him and the wife also took him to the uncle. So all of these things were as a result of mentorship, just to put comfort to you and also to guide you along your career progression. So if you like, for me, I think the most important thing is it's about mentorship. It doesn't matter. Whatever you do, you know, there is never a useless career and there is never a useless study. So whatever you study is very, very useful. So the only thing that makes you different from others is about being determined and being able to learn continuously. As you would always say, personal development is a personal responsibility. And majority of this development do not come from the books. It comes from how you learn from people's mistake and how they put you through. So sometimes, you know, at work I have a lot of challenge. You know, you, you are in that leadership role, meeting with the government, you know, at that high level meeting with international partners, your counterparts, some of them who could even be your uh, grandparents at, I mean at some platforms. But you're able, you are only able to navigate through some of these things because of what you have learned from others and, and because they have experience, they had experience in those areas, they can be able to give you better advices. So for me, for one to grow, you know, uh, you need to be consistent and also need to have mentors around you throughout. And there's never a time that you can say, well I think I've grown to this level and I should stop being having mentors. You always need to have mentors in different areas. It can be a mentor into your own area. I have mentors into public speaking. So I remember um, when I was in Mega bank, my supervisor, I said this United assessed me after the six months she told me, I have to be honest with you, Fatih, your report writing is weak, your English language is weak, your spoken language is weak. I was not happy that day. But then I took it upon myself, started reading and that, that was even what got me into article writing, another article publication. So I hadn't been, you know, I did not have that honest conversation with my supervisor about, you know, how I perform at work. It would be a problem, but I didn't mean, I also did not accept and willing to learn from others. I started, you know, talking to people that are in the public speaking uh, arena just to learn from them and they can give me how they're able to uh, uh, navigate through. So mentorship is key.

Ebrima Sawaneh: All right, thank you very much Mr. Fadi. I think it has been a very good uh, conversation about finance leaders roles in uh, climate change, including uh, awareness adoptions. We spoke about how finance can take a role through the project assessments we are doing where we ensure climate factors are uh, considered and not just only looking at just the climate, but there are other aspects around uh, social issues as well as their governance which if we do we give an example about banking will improve maybe our impairment. And even as a company it can potentially improve your return because it overall it gives you a cost. But at our personal levels we talk about how best we can contribute to the environment by reducing our consumptions of things like water in the case of the Gambia, and even things like electricity. So and in conclusion, we spoke about the, one of the best and the most important thing is mentorship, which I fully, uh, much agree with you. But thank you once again and, um, we hope to see you back in this, uh, podcast, the Future CFO Podcast. Thank you. This podcast is brought to you by futurecfo.info, your go to platform for practical

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