What Keeps You Up at Night?

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: M. Welcome to the inaugural episode of the Executive navigator update. I'm Dr. Chip Roper.

Speaker A: And I'm Dr. Rich Kid.

Speaker B: And every month we're going to drill down into the dynamics and best practices for navigating talent management. It's finding people, it's equipping them to make an excellent contribution to the mission of your organization. And sometimes it means helping them on to their next assignment in the workforce in another organization. It's all those things. And uh, what we find is that these issues around people or talent are the kind of things that keep people up at night. They keep leaders up at night when they're making people decisions and they keep us at night when decisions are being made about us. Um, Rich, I think you relate to both those, you know, both sides of the desk of sort of the talent. I don't know if you call it a burden, but the talent challenge, absolutely.

Speaker A: You know, as managing partner of Mission Leadership, um, a faith based executive search firm, I'm talking to CEOs, board chairs, uh, all the time. And of course many of my friends are in those roles. And uh, it just takes a lot of time and a lot of effort to hire people. And ah, everywhere I go I ask a real simple question. Raise your hand if you've ever made a bad hire and you know, every honest hand goes up. Yeah, my first employee that I hired in the executive search business turn out so well that I don't put that on my resume. But hiring, uh, isn't easy. It takes a lot of time. And what we do helps leaders save time because, you know, we've done it once or 300 times and we, we have some disciplines that we do follow. Uh, and we've learned a thing or two over the years.

Speaker B: That's great. We'll get, and we'll get into some of the details of that in a few minutes. You know, for us at voca, what we do is we help executives develop their people. And um, sometimes it's purely aspirational like this is a great employee, we want to promote them, we want to release more of their capacity. And it's very, very, uh, it's kind of very positive. It's a positive investment. Other times it's a little bit more remedial. Like there's something, there was five things that were great about this person, that's why we hired them. But now two or three other things have sort of surfaced and we need to work on them and we need to make a decision like can this, can this, this team member be Upskilled and up leveled to the place where we need them to be or do we do or do we make a move? And I find that. And while we do coach some CEOs and some senior leaders, uh, the very top leader, we do a lot of, a lot of times it ends up we're advising them on what to do with some of their key people. And I, it's the same thing. It's like they're burning a lot of cycles about this because so many things are at stake when we make decisions about somebody's job. You know, we're talking about their livelihood, we're talking about team morale. Um, and maybe they're, you know, there's, there's so many things there and I just find that, um, and I think for the most part most of the senior leaders I know, uh, especially, you know, whether the ministry leaders or not, they care. They care, they care about people. They don't want to unnecessarily, um, bring, you know, hurt or unneeded change to people's lives. So I think that there's a, it's a big thing there. And on the organizational side, I just want one more. Like we, most of the, most of the people we're talking to are listening to this or reading this, uh, they probably spend m. The largest portion of their budget on people. Sure. You know, like that's, that's the big spend and so people are big. So hiring the wrong person, big cost, uh, not, not having each person in the right lane, functioning well, not developing your own leaders from within, all very expensive. But there's another side to this, this Executive Navigator content, uh, for us and that's a little bit more personal because sometimes we're on the other side of the desk and um, you know, we're looking for work or we're thinking we may look for work and you know, sometimes we volunteer. Like, uh, we make a choice that we want to move on or look for something else. Sometimes we don't. And I know you've, you've seen both and probably experienced that. What's, what's it. That's another keep you up at night kind of experience right when you're wondering what's next and what am I going to do?

Speaker A: Look, I hope that our updates are brutally honest. Jock. The job search just sucks. I mean, it's awful. And when you're out there in sort of the modern job search and you're, you know, fighting with automated tracking systems and you're trying to guess what keywords they're looking for and you keep, you know, putting your name out there and you don't hear anything. You just feel like you're screaming in a vacuum and you have no idea which way to go. And man, do I really empathize and feel that feeling. And I talk to people and they're like, well, I have no idea what happened to my resume. I don't know if I'm in process. A lot of times I'm that go between where I have a trusted relationship with, uh, the hiring organization and I can talk with them and obviously I don't reveal everything that's in the process, but I can keep them oriented to understand where their best, uh, options are. I can help direct their resume to places where, uh, we think it would be well received. And often it's just a phone call that makes the difference between, um, a very frustrating, um, fruitless job search and one that gets, ah, you into a position where your gifts, your talents, your experiences really are put to great use. And that's what we want. We all know that we've been made to matter, right? That our gifts and our experiences are created by God for a purpose. We just want to find that place where we gel with the team, we fit. We don't have an idiot for a boss, uh, a diminisher, a know it all, a micromanager. And we get to that place and man, it's just, it just is a, uh, whole different world. So I love, uh, what we do. I actually love what you do. And I'm so glad we have a partnership because you bring something to the table that we don't have. And I know I can refer people to a trusted source, both the organization, which as you know, I've done, and individuals, which, you know, I've done. So, uh, it's great to see that partnership bear fruit.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's why we put together this Executive Navigator update. I mean from personal experience in our own work, as people with jobs and as people who lead people, we know that talent questions are the things that keep people up at night, whether it's the talent you're managing or your own talent and figuring out where it should best be deployed and beyond that. So we know there's a lot at stake. There's a lot at stake for the organizations we lead and for our own lives. And beyond that, um, this is what we spend our days doing, helping people make their way through this. And so we have this. So we're producing. This is the inaugural episode. It's going to be a monthly update it's going to have some expert tips, it's going to have research findings on the current job market. It's going to have some job postings from y' all at mission, uh, leadership. And uh, so that's, that's, that's one of the pieces we're going to do. And then we have the professional disciplines and services that each of us offer as, as out there for people to pursue as, as they, they find them useful and interesting. I think that that's the way, that's the way this is going to work. Um, say a little bit more about mission leadership. Maybe, maybe you could share a little bit about first why you started like why you got into search. Like what about search was attractive to you? Executive search. And then say a little bit about the kind of work that you guys do.

Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Well, I'll start uh, backwards, which is nothing unusual. Uh, we are a faith based executive search firm that assists um, Christian ministries, uh, Christian higher education, churches and faith inspired businesses, or as they say today, faith driven businesses to find uh, people of character and competence. That is if they have an executive role that they're trying to fill. And that person also needs to be a person of faith with a particular skill set. That's our expertise. Um, and we've assisted uh, just about 300 organizations through Mission leadership and we just love seeing them grow and develop. Our favorite thing is to assist an organization to place a number of positions over the years so you can see the growth and the development and them reaching their strategic goals. Uh, we uh, have been doing that. I've been in search before this particular role as well, just about 13 years now.

Speaker B: And

Speaker A: uh, I wish I could say it was because I, I had a strategic career goal. I didn't even know there was such a thing as executive search. I probably thought like most people, uh, if you have an uncle who needs a job, you call a headhunter or whatever. Newsflash. That's not, that's not what we do. We find people for jobs, not jobs for people. And somebody introduced me to actually someone that turned out to be pretty famous, uh, uh, executive search recruiter. Uh, and he taught me the business and I have really enjoyed it. It has pulled together a lot of my background. I've worked in business, I've worked in uh, higher education and I've worked in ministry at a local church level. And um, sometimes I feel like I had an add vocational counselor somewhere along the line. But somehow it all makes sense, uh, because most of the searches I'm doing are for positions I've either held or, um, have hired for. So I have a team, about 14 of us, and we have varying expertise. This week I'm going to be helping find a head of school. Uh, I'll be helping a church. We help Christian businesses like we're doing in Texas right now, um, just all across the board. Ah, it's a lot of fun telling. Tell us about what your firm does.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, um, first of all, I just want to remind you what I, uh, think it was. I, ah, think it's a Lord of the Rings thing. All who wander are not lost.

Speaker A: Oh, man.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I have to actually, one day

Speaker A: I'll ask God those questions. What was that about?

Speaker B: Yeah, what was that about?

Speaker A: Now I still wonder.

Speaker B: Well, sometimes when I think about the whole world of talent, and that's a technical term, it's used more in business, I think, than in ministry settings. But it's. Talent's just, it's all about the people side of your work, uh, of the team that you build to deliver ministry impact. Like that's, that's what we mean by talent. And um, we think of it sometimes as a three, a three phase process that you have to find talent, you have to develop and deploy talent that's in the middle. And sometimes you have to off board talent. In fact, if you really think about it, every position is ultimately temporary because none of us live forever, none of us do the same job forever. And so the exit is always part of it. Um, and, and so you guys focus on the finding talent and you're experts on that. And you know, it. First of all, it so fits with who you are, Rich, because you know so many people and you love people and you love to be with people. Well, you love most people, not, you know, not quite everybody, but you know, you love, you love people.

Speaker A: You're on my list that I love

Speaker B: and you know, people and like making that connection and finding that right person for that right position. I think you just have, you have all the tools to do that personally and then you've learned them professionally to fill in that blank. So that's what you guys do. We at voca, we focus on, uh, the other two parts of that talent cycle and we focus on the development and deploy. Like how do you make sure each person's in the best role for them? How do you make sure your team is working well together? So it's usually a lot of leadership development, uh, either for rising stars or people that aren't. They're almost there, but they just Need a little bit of work. You know, a lot of people in ministry roles have not had formal leadership training. Uh, they've not had any kind of executive development. And we can bring all that and scale it to budgets and, and roles. And so we do quite a bit of that team training, team development, team off sites. How do we work better together answering that question? Um, by creating better habits. We're big on data and habit creation, not just inspiration. And then sometimes, and this is where another area where we kind of overlap sometimes, um, you know, somebody has run their. They've done their tenure at a given organization and it's time for them to move on to the next. And my experience, because I was in business, I was a pastor, and I'm doing what I'm doing now, which is kind of hybrid of business and ministry. Um, like when you, when you, when you know you need to go get a job, especially if you've been in a ministry job, it can. I feel like it's very overwhelming. And, um, you know, sometimes in some cases organizations are like, they understand that too. Boards understand that too. And they will, they'll pay for an outplacement program for their outgoing senior executive or major senior player. Sometimes it even trickles down to people a little bit further down in the organization. And the idea is that we want to help this person get back in touch with who God's made them to be and then go find that next opportunity like the way you described, where the. Who they really are matches what's needed in the world. And, um, so that's called outplacement, and that's on the back end of the talent cycle. And so we do those two primary things. We help help leaders and teams develop, and we help people find their next. So we work for the individual on that side. Usually not helping an organization find somebody. We help a person find the next thing.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, my experience is that nonprofit leaders, uh, hate firing people. They just, they put it off. They may get them some discipline or some learning or something, but, man, they just, they can't stand it. But when you can come along, and I, uh, know this because we have partnered to serve organizations and individuals and give them an off ramp. That makes sense that that gives that person some tools and helps them onto the next phase. It makes all the difference. And so the leaders I know that have used your services love it because, uh, it really gives them another tool in their tool belt. Plus they don't have to deal with it. They sort of delegate that, which, honestly, let's Be honest. Many of leaders biggest headaches are people problems, right? And so they get to delegate the hiring piece to us. They get to delegate that talent development piece to you or uh, talent deployment somewhere else. Uh, yeah, uh, I think it's awesome.

Speaker B: I want to double click on that for a second because, um, when I was um, starting out as a ministry executive, um, first of all, we're always thinking about how you can save money and you just, you just get into DIY mode. Do it yourself. You do everything yourself because that saves money. And um, and some people will just say, well, that's straight up scarcity mindset. It's also an entrepreneurial mindset. You know, I, I was a, I turned around a very small church that grew into the hundreds in attendance. So like it was small, you know, in, in early days. Um, so we were in this moment where we were searching for a family ministry pastor. So like basically in a number two, I was the lead pastor, this is the number two pastor. And um, and this is, this is back in ancient times when you published ads and magazines and things like that. So you remember that? Um, I remember magazines, yeah, I remember magazines and classified ads. And so we did all that. And um, I think we got, we received about 400 bad resumes. And you know, it takes a lot of time to sift through 400 bad resumes. And uh, in the midst of that, a recruiter called me and he just happened, he said, so how's your search for blah, blah, blah going? And I said, well, back to your it sucks comments like that sucked too, because it was like, or drowning in unqualified profiles here. And he said, well, I, I do, I do pastoral search. And um, and I, you know, we checked him out, we did all this stuff and we hired him. And just like you, like you just, I just to your point about outsourcing, it's like, man, it was so much easier. We still made the decision. You know, it wasn't his job to make the decision. It was his job to find us qualified candidates. And like you guys, like there's a guarantee. Uh, so you, you are incentivized to find a great fit like you, you're not just trying to throw a warm body at this position because, you know, like, uh, you guarantee they're going to be there for a certain amount of time. And, and so the way I came to think about it was whenever you have an open position, you're going to be paying somebody to fill it. You're either going to be paying your operational staff and Yourself probably taking your attention away from other things that you could be doing that would actually be, you know, directly advancing your mission or you can pay somebody who, that's what their expertise in calling is, you know, and it's, it's the. So I'm a fan, like I'm a believer in, in what you guys do and um, and learn that early. Even though I think sometimes in, I think in business it's much more customary to use executive search than, than in the ministry land. You know, it's, it's hit or miss. Uh, I don't know what you guys find, but that's. So that's my endorsement. I think it's, it's great. And just like you said, people that work with you guys, they just, they love the network, they love the people. The fact that you really know lots and lots of people and, and you're able to, to work that web of relationships and find great, great prospects for them.

Speaker A: Well, I agree. You're going to pay somebody to do it, whether it's yourself and your staff or someone external. Um, and wouldn't it be nice to pay someone who has an expertise in it and gives you a guarantee? Right. Um, we're all motivated to do our job for something. And for me the motivation is really clear. Uh, I love seeing organizations accomplish their mission and so just faith based nonprofit people are my people. I just, I just, I love seeing people with a passion to accomplish something, whether that's clean water in Burundi. You know, we, we did a placement in Burundi, a French speaker. Uh, and uh, this organization had this passion to bring clean water to the country, uh, of Burundi. But they weren't able to accomplish what they were called to do because they didn't have the right people. They had to fly someone from Texas all the way over. They said if we just had this right person. And so we found that person, which is amazing. And what I've discovered is that uh, we are in the business of providing leaders as exceptional and is the missions of the organizations we serve. I mean there are some exceptional leaders, but they have a mission that is just, I believe, God given. And so uh, the, the only reason some of them aren't getting there is they don't have the right people to accomplish it. The bandwidth of their talent is not sufficient to accomplish the dream that's in their heart. And there's nothing wrong with the people that are there necessarily, but they just that they didn't draw from a big enough pool, uh, people with the special, you know, specialized abilities and experiences that are a perfect fit to accomplish their mission. Man, that just get, that gets me up in the morning because I think if I can help them find that right person, then the world will be a different place.

Speaker B: I love that. And I think what we do dovetails and sinks with that. So. Well, because what I would, the way I'd say it, just using the language you just, you were just using is. And we help them be the right person. You know, it's like they've got a great mission, but if the way your team accomplishes that mission is broken or toxic, uh, it's not sustainable. It doesn't really honor God. And you're not going to feel good about your legacy afterwards. You're not. And I, and one of the hardest things, hardest lessons I had to learn, uh, as a leader, it, uh, took me a long time to listen to the feedback that I was not an effective manager and I was good at certain things, but I was not good at leading my team.

Speaker A: That hurts.

Speaker B: Right? And that's what, that, that's what attracted me to coaching to figure out why. And that's how, that's why I, that's why. Part of the things that we bake into everything we do include data. Like let's get some real facts about how a person's wired and how they're showing up and habit forming. Like we all, we need to grow like, like being inspired, going to conferences, it's a great thing. But we need to form better habits. It's our habits that really come out in the day to day with the way we interface with our team. So it's like, yes, it can be better. Same idea, it can be better. And why shouldn't we expect people to thrive when they're working for faith based organizations?

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker B: Where does it come? Why we just say, well yeah, it's ministry, it's going to be hard. Well yeah, that's true. But why does the culture have to be hard? It shouldn't be that way. And it can be better. And yeah, it's born out of our, my own journey and my passion is born out of my own journey and the pain, some of the pain I've caused others and the pain I've experienced along the way. Um, so it's really interesting and it's a real privilege to walk alongside other leaders and say, well there's wisdom, there's real wisdom out there that you can apply and you can do it differently.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, one of the reasons why I love referring to you and we've done this on a number of occasions is that the people that I send your way get real practical tools, that the assessments, the, you know, the battery of assessments, you're going to give them, uh, the tools that are going to help them in their leadership. They, they come away better leaders. And, and I love it because it's, it's completely selfish. All the people that I've sent to you come back better. And so when they hire me again, you know, to look for people, they're easier to work with, they have more insight, they have more wisdom. I, I sound like a marketing brochure, but it really is true. The insights that your expert team bring them, uh, are practical, they're data driven, and you give them those tools that they can continue to help themselves. As an Aristotelian, it's great to hear you speak about the power of habit. I know that these days, uh, we think we invented atomic habits, but that goes back as far as Aristotle. And in fact, I think Jesus had some things to say about healthy habits. So, uh, I love referring people to you. They get better.

Speaker B: That's awesome. And that's what we're going to do. And every month we're going to bring practical insights. Maybe even like an example of a topic we would cover is how do you know it's time to fire somebody and how do you do it? Well, like, that's real practical, a real practical challenge. And we can drill into something like that, surface out some best practices and help everybody who's listening or reading become more confident in, in their leadership, more effective. So there'll be this monthly update, the Executive Navigator. Um, we're encouraging everybody stay tuned for that. Check that out, give us feedback, respond, um, uh, to it and tell us what's working, what you'd like to hear more of. And then obviously, um, we're both professional consultants and um, we talk to people all the time about their needs and how we might be able to help them. And so what's the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Speaker A: Well, our website has all of our active searches. That's www.missionleadership.org, no space, all lowercase. Um, my email is usually the best way to catch me. Just richmissionleadership.org and um, man, I have conversations every week with leaders who just need somebody to come alongside of them. Sometimes give them some insight, but other times go shoulder to shoulder. And uh, I've hired entire departments for folks as they're building out the vision that they have for their organization. And it's just wonderful to see them grow and develop and accomplish more. Uh, we'd love to hear from you.

Speaker B: Great. Yeah. And we're at vocacenter.org v o c a center.org I think it's important for listeners or readers to understand that. I mean, we offer, we both offer complimentary consults, like, if you're curious, we just want to talk to you and, um, see what's happening, offer some suggestions about ways to help. And sometimes there really are. Those are quick conversations. You pick up the nugget you need and you move on. And other times, you engage us in a more formal way. So thanks for listening or reading to this first episode of the Executive Navigator, and we'll see you next month. Thanks so much.