Warehouse Leadership Lessons from LesserEvil

Speaker A: The new Warehouse podcast, hosted by Kevin Lawton, is your source for insights and ideas from the distribution, transportation and logistics industry.

Speaker B: A new episode every Monday morning brings

Speaker A: you the latest from industry experts and thought leaders. And now here's Kevin. Hey, uh, it's Kevin with the new Warehouse podcast bringing you a new episode today. On today's episode, I have an operator joining us. He is joining us from Lesser Evil. His name is Alan Avery and he is the senior manager of warehouse operations. And we're going to learn a little bit about Lesser Evils operations also what they do, if you haven't heard of them before. But we're going to talk a little bit about those. And we're also going to talk a little bit about kind of the growth that they've been experiencing over the last few years and how they've been navigating that specifically on the people and human side of things. We're going to talk a little bit about how to make warehouses. Well, we say warehouses are sexy, but I think Alan's going to tell us how to make warehouses fun and positive and how to make sure we're keeping that employee morale. Morale amongst all of this high growth. But also in operations and warehouses, which unfortunately sometimes can get a bad view or a bad light shown on them. Right. So we're going to talk a little bit about that and how he does that with some of his team and his employees. M as well. So very happy to get Alan on the show today. So welcome in. How are you doing?

Speaker B: Great. Thank you so much for having me, Kevin. I'm doing great. How are you?

Speaker A: I'm doing well. Definitely happy to get you on here. I know you've been a, ah, listener for a little while, so to get you to the other side of the table, uh, here, definitely. So, so why don't you first tell us a little bit about Lesser Evil for people that are maybe not familiar with what the company does, and then tell us a little bit about what you got going on with the warehouse operations.

Speaker B: Sure, I'd love to. So Lesser Evil is a better for you snack company. Our primary product is popcorn. That's what kind of made us. That's what brought us to the dance, as they say. We're branching out into extruded products now. So we make a better for you cheese puff, A, uh, cheese doodle, a, uh, cheese ball. No more going to Walmart buying that big bag of neon orange cheese balls and then you have, uh, orange fingers the rest of the day. We make a much healthier version of that. And they're delicious too, so that helps. This iteration of the company is 14 years old. I've been here five years, which is exciting to say the very least. The growth that we have experienced in those five years that I've been here has been astronomical. So right now we have about 500,000 square feet of warehouse space.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Uh, unfortunately it is not in one location. It's spread out over four or five different warehouses. So with that comes a whole transportation team as well that is just to move raw materials to the factories and then finished product from the factory to the warehouse.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So we always have a truck on the road. We operate 24, six and then a few hours on Sunday as well. So if there's somebody in the factory, there's somebody in a truck, and there's somebody in a warehouse ready to receive product and ship it out right away.

Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really interesting because you said the growth. Right. And I imagine the growth is some of the reason that you, you point out there that like you're in multiple different buildings. Right. So tell us a little bit about, um, you know, going through this high growth. Right. And seeing this. You've been there for five years, so I'm guessing you've experienced a decent amount of this growth yourself personally.

Speaker B: Very much so.

Speaker A: So tell us a little bit about like from the warehouse operations as the business grows, like, obviously that means, you know, more shipping, more volume is moving through those facilities in those buildings. So, so how do you manage that and how do you kind of manage that to the level where you're maintaining still the customer service and making sure stuff is getting out on time, but also, you know, whether it's expanding to a bigger building, extra building, whatever the case is. Like, how do you navigate that as the leader of that?

Speaker B: Sure. So first, uh, and foremost, I have a phenomenal team that I work with both above me and directly reporting to me. So I report directly to a vice president, the vice president of operations, and then I have five managers that I manage and a host of supervisors, leads. You know, if we have a shift, we have a shift supervisor, a lead on that shift, maybe a receiving lead, maybe a shipping lead, maybe a floor lead, things like that. The only way we could grow the way that we do is because of the team that we have. We make sure we hire for attitude over skill. We don't want people that are going to come to work and be miserable every single day. We want people that are going to come to work ready to work hard but do so with a good attitude. And it's not always easy. You know, you have a bad morning, you come to work, you're kind of in a bad mood. You knock over a pallet, or you have to offload a truck that you just loaded. You know, it takes a little tlc, uh, sometimes to make sure that the team is ready to work hard and be happy.

Speaker A: M. Yeah.

Speaker B: With that comes a tremendous responsibility, though. Like, we have to make sure that we get to know our team. Does somebody have to put their kid on the bus every day?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And they're going to be five minutes late two or three days a week or whatever. We can work with them a little bit. It's not a hey, you're five minutes late three days in a row, we're gonna fire you type situation. You know, we try to lead with empathy and dignity and understand that people outside of work have really important lives.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's such a important thing. Right. And, uh, I think it's interesting you point that out because, you know, I think so often, especially in, like, large organizations, right. The warehouse is kind of like the last thought sometimes, even though it's. I mean, hey, maybe I'm biased, but I would say is, like, the most critical point if you're moving some kind of physical product. Right. But, you know, it is often, like, all right, well, those employees are kind of just like numbers in a sense. Right. And you kind of, you know, get very, like, strict with, you know, like you said, like, oh, five minutes late three times. Like, all right, that's it. Like, you're done. Right. But what is the reason behind that? Right. I think that's really interesting that you. You point that out. We'll talk about that a little bit. But I'm curious. You mentioned something in there about the. Right. And having a couple different or a few different managers and then shift supervisors, et cetera. So, you know, oftentimes I feel like there's a question of, like, when do we say, like, okay, we need, uh, another leader? Or when do we think maybe we have too many leaders in a sense. Right. So going through this high growth. Right. Like, how do you determine that? Like, how do you determine that, okay, I need to add another manager underneath yourself, or I need to add a additional shift lead? And, like, do you have, like, a ratio, in a sense of, like, people to leadership? I mean, what does that look like from your perspective?

Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. It's not a hard and fast ratio of, like, six to one. Like, hey, we just hired our sixth FORKLIFT OPERATOR we need another lead. It's more of a general feeling. Am I getting calls at, uh, midnight saying that, you know, hey, I don't have anybody on site and I need this question answered. If that happens more than a couple times, we need somebody that is on site during that time. The director of operations here, his name is Corey. He always says he needs responsible adults. And I think that's exactly what it is. He needs somebody that can just be on the front lines. And then if that means they're handling things on third shift and it's 2am and something happens and the phone rings, then great. At least I know that it's being handled already, as opposed to I have to jump in with both feet right away while I'm still trying to wake up. As far as everything else goes, again, it just comes down to can someone else handle it? And is there somebody on the team that's ready to step up? Is there somebody that is loading trucks but he's ready to be a lead? Is there somebody that's offloading trucks but she's ready to be a, uh, supervisor? We just kind of take a look at the org chart and determine what is the best strategy moving forward.

Speaker A: Interesting. And I'm curious, what are those traits where you say, like, okay, this person's unloading a truck, but they're, they're ready to be a leader, they're ready to be a supervisor. And I think, you know, obviously there's a lot of conversation I think around sometimes, you know, you look at a. I think this is the wrong approach. Right. You look at a top performer and you're like, oh, my top picker is they're going to be the lead. Right. But they don't necessarily have like the leadership traits. Like they're great performer, right. And then like, they don't perform as the lead you're expecting. So of course. So what are those traits or what are those signals to you or your team that are like, okay, this person is ready to take that step up?

Speaker B: Um, sure. First and foremost, are they bringing me problems or are they bringing me solutions? That's always my first question. Everybody gets to vent whenever they need to. That's what gets us through the day some days. But if you come to me every morning and vent that there's no space in the warehouse, but you're overlooking that you could combine a couple different pallets to make an extra space, or you could move this row over here and now you have a whole row that's open. Don't Just come with problems, come with solutions as well. Identify problems before they happen. You know, if you see something, hey, so and so is offloading a palette. But every time he does it, I see the palette is wobbling a little bit back and forth. Let me see if I can talk to Alan or some of the warehouse managers about maybe we shore up how we wrap them with plastic wrap. Maybe it's a different size pallet, maybe it's a different size product, something like that. If you're coming to me every day and you're saying, hey, I am helping prevent these problems from becoming problems, that is a huge step towards being a lead. Other than that, I mean, you know as well as I do, if you get a group of people together, there's natural leaders who are just ready to move forward and they identify themselves through their actions, through their words and through their values.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's such a great thing, especially in the warehouse operation. Like problem solvers. Right. M sure, you know, you're saying these things I'm getting like flashbacks of, of course, people that like, like you said, like every day is like, oh, uh, you know, I don't have this, or we don't have that or this is not thing. And then. But there's never like the solution. Right. So like, who's coming with with the solution or who's being proactive in a sense too, I think is a. Is a great sign as well, because those are people that are going to think a little differently. And then hopefully, you know, instill in other people to think about their work a little differently as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know, we have this great poster in the office here, and it's like the pyramid of bad employee on the bottom to on the top. And the very top is like, they've identified a problem before it becomes a problem. They instituted a solution and then they just let somebody know, like, hey, I saw this problem, I made this solution, it's no longer a problem and it never became a problem. And to me, that's the best case scenario.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So when we think about that, I mean, we talked a little bit about the leadership and you also mentioned, you know, hiring there from that perspective as well. So we take kind of a step back in the process there before they get to the leadership level. And you're hiring, you know, your traditional, traditional warehouse, um, operations person. Right. That's going to come in there and work. I mean, how do you look at that? Because you mentioned attitude kind of outweighs the skills a little Bit. So how do you assess that? And I'm particularly interested in, because, you know, I know where I'm at in New Jersey here, like it was like highly concentrated. So more often than not, uh, you have people applying that have worked in other warehouse operations, you know, whether it's good ones or bad ones. Right. And they come in with like a, just uh, a mindset about warehouse work in general already. So how do you feel out the attitude and the mindset and things like that to make sure that you're hiring the right people?

Speaker B: Sure, yeah. It's a multi phase approach, first and foremost. During the interview we just get a general vibe. What are they like, are they smiling? Are they laughing? Look, interviews don't have to be these very uptight, buttoned up, don't make a joke, don't crack a joke, don't smile. You're there to sell yourself. It doesn't have to be like that. Show me what your personality is. And then we listen to what they say too. If we ask them why they left their last job and it's a litany of, you know, here's everything I hated from the forklifts to the boss to the owner, that person is going to be miserable wherever they are and they're not going to fit in at Lesser Equal. Yeah, but if they say, you know, hey, I learned a lot, that's forward thinking, that's ready to grow. With that desire for growth comes an attitude of hard work and a willingness to help out whenever they can. M. Then we, we also ask them about their forklift experience. Again, just be honest because as soon as we tell them like, or ask them, you know, hey, Kevin, how long have you been on a forklift? When was the last time you were on one? And you lie to me and say, oh, I've been on one for 15 years every day. And then I put you on a forklift. You don't know how to turn it on. Like, obviously you have not been on a forklift every day.

Speaker A: I've seen that.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, uh, yeah, we've seen that too. So we just bring people out into the warehouse and we put them on a forklift and say like, hey, this is what you're going to be driving. Pick this pallet up and put it down over there. We have a dedicated area to do that. But our biggest perk, uh, our biggest tool in our arsenal is in the warehouse. You can see how much fun people are having at work at Lesser Evil. It's not people screaming at each other that, hey, you took My forklift. Hey, you took the pallet I was going to use. That's my truck. It's collaborative. It's people working together. You see people, you know, laughing, telling a quick joke as they pass by each other. And once people see that during an interview, you can see the light bulb go off. You can see them buy in, like, oh, this is a different place. This is not the dark, dingy warehouse I left where someone threatened violence because I took their forklift. It's not like that. We don't allow yelling at the lesser evil warehouse unless you're yelling for help. You know, there's, there's no need to scream. There's no need to get that worked up about anything. And in interviews, that's how we sell the company, because we are trying to sell the company to the people that we want to buy in. Mhm.

Speaker A: I see. And you know, you touched on something there. Kind of the dark, you know, dingy reputation warehouse of course has.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And, and so how do you. Because obviously like you got to sell that a little bit to, to some, some hires, I imagine, or some people you're interviewing in a sense, because as I mentioned, like, they've probably worked at other warehouse operations and they've probably been maybe dark and, and dingy and you know. Yeah. Kind of environments in a sense. So.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So how do you, at the, like the foundational core as like the leader of these operations? I mean, how do you build that culture from the beginning and like, how do you make it fun? Like, what are some of the things that you're doing to make sure that that is, you know, permeating throughout the culture and the employees there that like, okay, like we're going to, we're going to get our job done, but we're also going to like, have fun while we're doing it.

Speaker B: I mean, right, uh, away you can see over my shoulder, you see a little guru. That's our, our logo. His name's Homer. He's on all of our packaging. We have different gurus. It's hard to be in a bad mood when you see like little stylized cartoons everywhere. It just makes it bright right off the bat. And uh, you know, something as simple as the lighting in the warehouse, we have very bright LED lights, so there are no dark dingy corners to hide in. That kind of lighting just puts you in a better mood because everything's so bright. You're not squinting trying to read a box label. You're not squinting trying to read something on your forklift or anything like that, other than that, our culture, like for instance, we have two big parties every year. And when I say big parties, I mean we shut the warehouse down, we shut the company down, we shut the factories down. The sales team flies in. There's no work for a team a few hours or for the rest of the day. And I mean, we do big themes. Like last year we turned our warehouse into like Monte Carlo. We had a local company come in and they had pretend gambling tables and like craft tables and things like that. People dressed up. We did like a, ah, 1920s bootleg prohibition theme. And like, you know, I wore a suit and somebody dressed up like a bootlegger. It was so much fun. We do one in the summer, we're playing one in a couple weeks where it's Hawaiian themed. So, you know, we have like a local company that's going to come make a giant sandcastle for us and we're doing a pig roast. And again, we can talk about these things during the interview. And you can see people buy in or they're like, yeah, okay, sure. You do pizza once a month and everybody's happy. No, our monthly birthday lunch, we call it, where we celebrate everybody's birthday for the entire year. That's the only thing you need. If you had a birthday this year or you're going to have a birthday this year, you're invited to birthday lunch.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: Again, we stop shipping for a couple hours and we have it like catered with an actual chef, not just a couple pizzas. And like, all right, guys, eat a piece of pizza and go back to work. No, we, we want people to be happy and healthy. And when the leaders feel that way and when they manage that way, it just permeates down to everybody. Like, you don't want to be the guy that's in a bad mood when everybody else around you is in a good mood, you just look like a jerk.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker B: That's what it comes down to.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I, I love that. I think that's fantastic. And I think too, you know, it's such a important thing there. You mentioned like the, it's kind of like this company wide event, but the warehouse is involved too. And it's not like, all right, the warehouse can, you know, pop in and out like you. So you shut down the operation. Right, to be able to make sure that they are a true part. Because, uh, I mean, I've worked at companies before where, you know, not all the warehouse workers have email. Right. But some of like the leads or supervisors and you know, somebody sends out this like, company wide email that's like, okay, we're doing this and this for like Valentine's Day or something, but the warehouse is like, not included in that. Right. But then some of the, yeah, the, the leads, supervisor, like, well, what's going on here? Like, how come we're not, you know, taking care of the people? So I love that it's like an all inclusive type of thing because, you know, they are truly like a critical part of the, the business. So to include them in those types of activities I think is a fantastic thing as well. So now, obviously, sometimes people come in, right, and they seem like maybe they're a culture fit, but then over time, maybe they're not such a. Within that culture, or maybe they're that grumpy person around, uh, a bunch of people that are having fun. Right. Like, that's not necessarily like a measurable performance type of thing. Right. I mean, that's not like units picked per hour. It's not like, you know, pallets, uh, unloaded or anything like that that you can measure. So how do you navigate that from a leadership perspective and like, how do you either like, address that, uh, with a person or be able to kind of, you know, suss that person out to be like, all right, well, this is not good for the culture. Like, how do we turn this around? Or how do we move in a different direction?

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. So first and foremost, we empower our leads and our supervisors to have those conversations without us present. You know, I manage a manager of the warehouse. He manages the supervisors and the leads. He empowers those that report to him to pull someone aside and be like, hey, Kevin, look, dude, you're kind of in a bad mood today. What's going on? Is there anything we can help with. With if we try to be empathetic, we try to treat people with dignity. Sometimes it just comes out like, hey, their kid is sick and their dog is sick and their car had a flat tire this morning and they have a host of problems. Those things we can help work on. You know, sometimes they just woke up on the wrong side of the bed. I get it happens. You didn't sleep well last night. You just come in and somebody, you know, break checked you on the highway and you sat in traffic. Those days are terrible. They're awful. How can we try to make their day a little better? There's easier orders we can give them. You know, we ship a lot to Costco. Costco trucks are super easy. We load them in like 15, 20 minutes. They're not mindless, per se, but, you know, it's 60 pallets of the same product. So just on the truck, on the truck, on the truck. It makes the day go by a little quicker. So if we can funnel some of those orders to somebody who's having a little bit of a rough day so they don't have to worry about work. So it's one less thing on their plate that's being empathetic, that's treating them with dignity, which I think is something that's missing from warehouses a lot Spot. If that doesn't work, if our leads and our supervisors talk to them and they keep saying, like, hey, Kevin, look, man, you're just always in a bad mood when you come to work. Then they come to us, they come to me. They come to the warehouse manager and say, hey, I'm really having some trouble with this guy. I just can't get through to him. Can we talk to him? We'll go out to lunch. There's a diner right down the street from our warehouse in Brewster. There's a phenomenal deli down, you know, a little bit further down the street. We'll just go get lunch and talk to them, you know, hey, Kevin, tell me what's going on, man? What's happening? And why are you in a bad mood today? Why? It's. It's been a few days of this. You've made some mistakes. What's happening? How can we help if all of those things don't work, but this person is still showing up to work every day, still getting their job done? We encourage them to apply for our. What we call our big board positions. Every Wednesday, we send out an email, and we post it in the break room of every facility, both in English and Spanish. What positions are open in the company? And we encourage them to apply elsewhere. Hey, this guy, he's a really good worker. He just works better by himself. For instance, we'll try to find a position for him that he can work better by himself. He can be a team of one instead of on a team of 170 people.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or whatever else is right now that has the potential to turn a challenge into a strength, which is all we're trying to do every single day.

Speaker A: M. Yeah. And I love that approach. I think that's. That's fantastic. And, you know, taking them to. Taking them to lunch is much different than, oh, you got to come into the conference room. Right.

Speaker B: That's always like, Exactly.

Speaker A: It's always like, oh, no, I don't want to do.

Speaker B: It's scary. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's terrifying. Nobody wants to walk into a conference room and be ambushed by their boss and their boss's boss sitting there. You're defensive immediately, and nothing's going to be accomplished.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I. I think that's such a great approach to managing because it is such a difference in, like, the language that you use. Right. But then, like, also the setting, too. Right. Like, oh, go to lunch. Right. Like you said, like, conference room versus, you know, diner down the street is like, all right, well, guard is down a little bit more. Like, I feel like I can be a little more comfortable, maybe a little more open about something that's going on with me if I'm having some difficulties or something like that. So I love that you're investing in the employee in that. That way to not only just figure out, like, hey, like, what's up? But also, like, you know, how do we help make this better for you? And like you said, like, is there a different position that makes more sense for you to thrive, especially if you're. You're performing well? Right. But it's just not the culture necessarily that you're fitting into. So you mentioned kind of going through this. This high growth. Right. We talked about earlier, like, and you're talking about having fun and doing these events and all these things. Like, when you're going through high growth. I mean, oftentimes, like, there is like some. Some high pressure or some. Some stressful times. Right. Whether it's like, all right, the sales has gotten a new account or you mentioned Costco, like, Costco wants to. To ramp up, up the. The amount that. Oh, sure they do, or something like that. Right. Or, you know, getting into. Well, it's like a promotional or something like that. How do you maintain that morale and that, uh, that fun aspects for the employees when, you know, they may be working some extra hours, or it may be like, high pressure, crunch time. Like, we got to hit these deadlines and get these shipments out and, you know, the volume is higher than a normal day. Like. Like, how do you make sure you're maintaining through those periods? Periods as well?

Speaker B: Sure. So right away, the first thing we do is we're honest with them. We tell them, guys, actually this month, this June is our biggest month ever by a significant margin, by like 30 larger than we've ever done before. We're shipping more pallets than we ever shipped before, more trucks than we've ever shipped before, and we're maintaining our same truck Load speeds and times, which is all I can ask for on busy days. We were honest, and we told them in April and May, this is what's coming. This is what's going to happen in June. Let's be ready. People started throwing out ideas right away. Hey, all the Costco today is going to be a thousand pallets. Can we pull all thousand pallets off the racks and stage them so that they are ready to go on the truck right away? Love it. That's a great idea. That takes a bad day to a good day. Last week or the week before, we had our busiest day ever. We were just shy of a goal, but it was a much more significantly, it was a significantly busier day that done any day we'd done previously. That night, I sent out an email to the entire company. The sales team, the executive team, people at the mother company were actually lesser evils owned by Hershey. So people at the Hershey team and I called out some of the team members by name. So now the CEO is responding and saying, like, hey, you guys did a great job. Vice presidents are responding. Salespeople are saying, keep it up, guys. Keep it up. It's hard to be in a bad mood when people that you don't see every day are cheering you up on. Yeah, you know, it's. It really helps keep the morale when people are honest and effusive in their praise. We're not going to sit here and talk about everything that went wrong. We're going to talk about the things that went right, and we're going to learn from the things that went wrong. We're not going to harp on the mistakes. We're not going to harp that, you know, hey, today took us 45 minutes to load every truck instead of the 25 minutes we're used to. Hey, look what we still did. We still had a great day, and we were so successful, and we kept our, Our, our positivity amongst us, even though we had to work a little harder today. Once people see that's the expectation and that's the culture and that's the examples that the leads are showing. Everybody just kind of does it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think it's really, really interesting because, like you said, there's something, like, very key in there that you mentioned is that, you know, when you gave them kind of the, the message in April and May, that, like, you know, June's gonna be a little crazy, like a little, little heavy. Right? Like, and, uh, obviously was if you said you just had, like, your, your busiest day Last, last week. Right. So. So it's great time, great timing that we're talking.

Speaker B: Yeah, it was definitely. Yeah.

Speaker A: And kudos to your, to your team for, for getting it. Thank you as well. But you know, you said something interesting there where, you know, right away, like, people were throwing out ideas, right. And that kind of leans into this, this concept of, like, psychological safety in a sense, right. Like, they felt like, okay, like, how can we navigate this? Like, how can we help? How can we jump in? So how do for that? And like, how do you encourage, you know, people at all different levels to be able to feel like, you know, it's okay that I can give ideas out. Right. Because, because a lot of times, you know, I think people feel like no one's going to care. Like, I have an idea, but no one's going to care what I say or like, you know, I've given ideas before and nobody listened to me. So, like, I'm not giving ideas anymore. Right. Like, I mean, that's pretty, pretty common. Like, so how do you create that atmosphere of, like, they feel comfortable that they can right away come out with those ideas on how we can navigate this, how can we get through this easier as a team? How do you create that atmosphere?

Speaker B: It starts in the interview. We tell people right away, you know, hey, while you're here, the expectation is if you have an idea, you bring it to the team. Nobody steals ideas. You know, I'm the first one to say, hey, so and so, you know, such and such. Forklift driver David had a really good idea and this is what we're going to try today. And if it doesn't work, cool, then we refine it. Maybe that idea starts somebody else's idea. Maybe it creates the spark of a new process that works out well if people know, you know, hey, Alan is not going to be the kind of guy that will stand up and say, well, this is what I thought we should do and this is what we did. If they know I'm not going to steal anybody's ideas, they're very forthcoming with them. Not all of them are good ideas, of course. You know, some of them are just not safe or not possible.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: And we can use that as a teaching moment. You know, there's nothing wrong with that. Every moment can be a teaching moment, especially if something goes wrong. Other than that, we just reassure everybody all the time. Time, hey, come up with an idea. The worst thing that's going to happen is we're going to say no, because we've tried it already. You Know, with so many people coming new to the team and our growth of the team just happening exponentially, a lot of people in June don't know what we tried in January. So again, teaching moment. Hey, we tried this already. Here's why it didn't work. Let that marinate, see if you can come up with anything else. See if you can, uh, change your idea, make it a little better, and we'll give it a shot. That, and then when it does work, we tell everybody, hey, this was David's idea. David came up with this idea, and it changed the day. We call a quick meeting, tell everybody, hey, this is what happens when you come up with good ideas. And that just helps foster that culture of collaboration and creativity.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's fantastic. And I think to get to that level, that, uh, kind of psychological safety level, I think is such an unlock, especially for. For warehouse operation, because things are changing, moving all the time, especially when you're going through high growth to be able to do that. But I think there's a, uh, leadership lesson in there. You mentioned, you know, not every idea is necessarily a good idea. Right. So.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: How do you approach, I guess, you know, quote unquote, a bad idea? Right. But how do you convey that it's a bad idea to someone without them feeling, like, discouraged to bring another idea

Speaker B: in the future right away? Uh, first thing I do when someone brings something to me is I say, thank you for bringing this to me. You know, and the managers I manage, they do the same thing, you know, hey, thank you so much for taking the time to come talk to me today. It's an open door. I'm glad to see you walk through here. I always love chatting with people that I don't get to talk to on a daily basis. Here's why. Your idea might present some challenges, but I want you to go back and I would like you to think about these challenges and how can we turn them into a strength. You said X in the past. We've tried it. It didn't quite work. Work. How do we get to Y? How do we get to Z? How do we keep going? And a lot of times if it's not just a straight out, you know, hey, no, that was a terrible idea. People are willing to do a little bit of extra work because they know they'll get the credit for it. And they know that the next time they come up with an idea, they'll be listened to as well. So it's just you always have to think about the next play the next Game the next day, the next month. How can we keep the team going? And the answers never be negative. The answer is never, like, put them down, call them dumb. Like, like, that's just not things we can do and expect the culture to be the way it is.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's such a, um, such an important thing. And I love that you said, like, think about the next play. Right. Like, it's kind of like, I mean, it's like, you know, sports in a sense. Right. Like, if I do this, then, like, what is the other team going to do or what is the reaction going to be? Right. And then what is the, the long term impact of that on the, like the overall game in a sense. Right. I think it's. That's a really kind of, of important takeaway, I think, for any, any leaders or potential leaders out there too, as well. It's just like, you know, always think about, you know, what I say as a leader, how does that stick in someone's head, whether it's a positive or a negative? And like, how are they going to come back the next time? Or will they even come back the next time? Right. And exactly too. Right. So I'm very curious. I mean, where did you kind of learn all this from? Is this like just over the years you've kind of figured this out? Did you have a good kind of foundation or.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've worked for a lot of bad bosses over the years, as we all have.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So when I started at Lester Evil, my first or second day, I was my boss at the time. His. He was a general manager. His name's Corey. He's still here.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: He pulled me aside, we went out to lunch, and he was just like, look, you have to change the culture of the warehouse. You have to build the culture. We want to be positive. We don't want it to be a typical warehouse. Be the boss you've never had, but you always wanted. And it was like a nuclear explosion of a spark going off in my mind right away. In that instant, I knew everything I would never do. And I would. I remembered the way every bad boss ever made me feel. And I swore up and down I would never make anybody feel that way. And I have been so encouraged at Lesser Evil to put together leadership summits. We're planning one in August where the next generation of leaders, we're ready to coach them up a little bit. We read, read leadership books. Like, I'm a huge Simon Sinek guy. Last year or the year before we read Setting the Table by Danny Meyer, the guy who started Shake Shack. Okay. So it was a really good excuse to go down to the Shake Shack, buy a bunch of burgers and hot dogs and fries and shakes and talk about what we learned in this book. And there are some things in that book that I still put into practice every single day. Simon Sinek, he had this one part in one of his books where he said, there's something that's so enjoyable about being the person behind the scenes that you've helped mentor and watch them succeed. And that's so true. Like, I love that I was mentored by Corey, and I'm trying to pay it forward and mentor other people, and it just. It makes the job enjoyable every single day.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I think that's amazing. And I love that the lesson that you take away from those. Right. Is like, what I don't want to do when I'm in that position. Right. Like, when I'm the leader. Like, well, I don't want to do that because I remember how, like, that made me feel. Right. Like you said, like, I don't want to make anybody feel like, the way that I felt in. In those situations in the past. Right. To be able to. To do that. So. So I love that you're kind of embracing that and, you know, expanding upon that and bringing kind of that positivity into it, and it helps that the organization is wanting to fuel that as well. I'm curious, you know, now we talked about kind of how you hire, how, like, you identify potential leaders within the organization and kind of the morale and things. I'm curious, like, what are you seeing and how are you navigating the new generation of the workforce coming in? Because, uh, I teach some of them as an adjunct professor, and I see their views and perspectives on work is kind of quite different from when I was in school. So I'm curious, how are you approaching, you know, like, the. The Gen Z's that are now coming into the workforce and things like that? Is there anything, like, different that you're doing when you interview them, when you onboard them, when you bring them in? Like, what is. What does that look like?

Speaker B: Sure. Uh, again, just going back to my own experience. You know, I'm a millennial, and when I got into the workforce, it was baby Boomers and maybe a couple Gen Xers. I'm in. Sure. I forget what they call them. M. Elder Millennial, so don't necessarily love that term. But, you know, uh, when I got into the workforce, it was all all, it was all, uh, baby boomers. Everything was, what did I do wrong? You know, I'm dumb because I'm a dumb kid. I'm not smart enough to do X, Y and Z yet. Uh, and again, I will never say that to anybody. I don't want them to feel bad about themselves. I want them to be happy when they go home at the end of the day. So when we interview somebody, we show them our big board where we can tell them, look, come to work, learn the job, and you will set yourself up to move up in the company. And every single week, there's additional openings. We're adding more leadership positions. We're adding more supervisory positions. You don't even have to apply for just a, uh, warehouse, uh, position. We've had people that went from the warehouse to the factory to the office, to the manufacturing team. We've had people that have come from the factory and fit in really well at the warehouse. What I'm noticing about Gen Z is they want very clearly defined career ladders. And while that's hard for me to tell somebody at 25, 26 years old, like, hey, here's what you're going to do in the next 40 years. Yeah. I can tell them how they can try to set themselves up by not repeating mistakes that other generations have made. You know, rather than holding them down and telling them, oh, yeah, you're going to be the grunt for the next five years. Nope, you're on the team. You don't need to prove yourself. You're a member of the team now. You're expected to contribute, but everybody else will contribute at the same level. Level. So that means, you know, if I grab a broom to start sweeping up, it's to show everybody that anybody can sweep up. The expectation is, if there's a mess, you clean it up. Not just, hey, go find the newest person in the warehouse and make them clean it up. That only builds resentment, and that's just not how Gen Z operates. And I applaud them for that. They know what their value is, and I couldn't be happier that they know that right away.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I see the, the same, definitely. It's no more, uh, like, oh, you're the, you're the rookie, so you go get the coffees or whatever.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And you know, you the dirty job just because of that. Like, I think it is very interesting and I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I think I would, I guess I would be considered an elder millennial. And I came into the workforce and kind of the same thing as well. I remember my first leadership role coming in as like a supervisor of QA department inside of a distribution center. And I think the lowest tenured person that was on my team that I inherited had been the company like nine years. So like they're looking at this, you know, 25 year old kid like, like,

Speaker B: what do you know?

Speaker A: Yeah, what do you know? So it's interesting to kind of navigate that because I do see that like in Gen Z that they're like, I'm not taking that like anymore. Yeah. Like, you know, I'm m, I'm a person just like you and like I'm gonna, you know, do, do what's my, my worth, my value? And, and I see a lot of them too where they're like, you know, if I don't feel like that, like I'm, I'm out of here. Like, I'll just figure it out. Right. Um, and so I think that's very interesting. So now, you know, talking about kind of the, the new generation of the workforce and also how the workforce is kind of evolving and warehouse operations are evolving as well in themselves too. We've talked a lot about the kind of the human worker in essence, but I'm curious, like how are you navigating that balance of the human worker alongside some of the technology and the newer technology especially that are coming within warehouse operations that's around AI, uh, whether it's robotics, automation. What does that look like for you and how are you approaching that?

Speaker B: We actually use Conduit, which I learned about on uh, this very podcast. So excited to begin using that. We've been using it for like eight months now and it's been a tremendous time saver. Previously before that we had to schedule everything via email. So you, the broker would contact me and say, alan, I want to pick up order 1, 2, 3, 4 on Friday at 10:00am I'd write back and say, no, Friday, 10:00am does work and you do 11. You'd write back, say no, but I could do 1, blah, blah, blah. It ended up being like every appointment was like six or seven emails just to get it set. Yeah, now we can use Conduit. We can use the AI feature in Conduit to have the broker schedule their own appointments. That has allowed us to free up the logistics team to do other things. So with that success, and I mean it is a grand slam him, it could not have gone any smoother. It couldn't be a better product. So shout out Conduit. Absolutely. Love those guys.

Speaker A: Yes. Good friends we have.

Speaker B: Yes, definitely. We have that streak. Right now we can say, guys, remember when we started using Conduit and how well that worked? Let's check out this new product. Let's check out this automation. It's not every day that we get to experiment with some automation. But as things come up, the team is at least willing to listen. You know, they're not sitting here saying, nope, I'm not going to do that. Like you said, some of the guys have been here a few years. We used to do it one way, now we do it a different way. But nobody is stuck in the mud and saying, I'm never going to do that. People are willing to listen and it's because again, we're open and honest with them. We communicate, we treat them like everybody's equal. We're all member of the same team. It's not Alan, the boss isn't a member of the team, it's Alan is the leader of the team and then the team is the team. And we all work together to accomplish our goals. So if I come in and say, I'd really like to try this new automation process, I'd really like to try whatever it is. More often than not, the team is willing to listen and they give it an honest shot. It's not just lip service where they're like, yeah, sure, I'll try it. They throw the scanner or whatever away and tell me later it didn't work. They, they actually are honest with their feedback and they give it an honest shot. And that's all I can ask for.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a such a great thing and I think you get a great example. There is like, all right, well we had a win, right, on one technology that, that we tried, right? So you can kind of reference that to be like, oh well, remember the before and then, and then the after now the better life we're living now, right? And like, let's take that mindset into the next thing that we want to try, right? The next thing we want to try and solve for. So when you're looking at that from that perspective, like, are you leaning, I guess now like where you're at, I mean, are you leaning more in, towards like different, uh, kind of software, so lens solutions, like Conduit. Are you looking at like, you know, physical automation and robotics type solutions? Like where is your head at in terms of that?

Speaker B: We haven't looked into robotics in the warehouse too much yet. Okay. Uh, we're still fairly Young in terms of our journey to robotics. However, at the factory we are always trying different things. If somebody comes out with a better way to pop popcorn, a better way to get popcorn into a bag or get that bag into a case, or get that case onto a pallet, we're going to try it it out. We can't not try it out just because of this absurd growth path that we're on. You know, double digit growth year after year after year. We can't not try. You know, our CEO is very forward thinking. You know, he wants to know what is the newest automation out there, how can we leverage it, what does AI do? How can we use AI in everything? So certainly nobody is shying away from it. I'm excited to see what we can try in the warehouse. It's just a matter of, of which applications work best. You know, maybe robotics isn't quite for us yet just because of the volume. However, something else might work better.

Speaker A: M Interesting. Yeah. And I think, well, if there's any popcorn popping experts out there, it sounds like, you know, there might be some opportunity there, but, uh, to improve that.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: But you know, from the AI perspective, I'm curious because you mentioned like your CEO, the leadership is like saying like we want to put AI in everything. How are you, you looking at that from the warehouse operations perspective? Like, do you see AI as a potential tool for like leadership only, or do you see it as something that you can also get like the on the floor worker involved into everything we do?

Speaker B: We want the on the floor worker working as well.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: You know, nobody knows more about loading the trucks than the guys loading the trucks, you know, So I certainly am not going to go out there and say, okay, we're going to do it this way today, today. And everybody looks at me like I sprouted a second head out of my shoulder because they've been doing it for months or they've already tried it and they know it won't work or it's just such a crazy idea that there's absolutely no way it'll ever be successful. So we want them involved, we want them to go home and if they have an idea, run it through ChatGPT or Claude or whatever AI they want to use. See what that spits out. Maybe again, maybe it's the spark of idea. Maybe they were 99 there and this one little bit was just escaping them. If they could use AI to get to where they need to be, great. And I also encourage the team, anytime you have a job interview or you have to Write an email or something like that that it's going to senior leadership. Run it through AI. Let's get it cleaned up. Present yourself as knowledgeable about everything that you're working on, even if it's going through AI It's a tool to help us be more successful.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's great because even, like, the examples you're given, you're giving there, like, I think it's very clear that you want to elevate your employees as much as possible. Right. And, like, help them elevate themselves too. Right. And, you know, increase their Persona within the company and get them more visibility and things of that nature. And I think that's just, like, fantastic. Right. It's not, it's not easy to always find that in, uh, in a leader that's thinking about everybody and like, how can I lift everybody up to, to be able to do that right now? I think this is pretty, pretty evident in our conversation today. So you've kind of given us a ton of leadership lessons, I think, in the conversation today. But as we kind of close this out, maybe you want to give us your final, maybe like your number one warehouse operations leadership tip. What, what would that be if you had to pick one thing?

Speaker B: If I had to pick one thing, it would be listen with an open mind. Whatever somebody comes to talk to you about, listen, if they are taking the time to talk to you about it, they've put some thought into it. The least you can do for them is just put the phone down, turn away from the computer, and listen with an open mind. Figure out exactly what they're trying to say and communicate with them as you would want somebody to communicate with you. Don't belittle them. Don't put them down, even if it's the worst idea you've ever heard. Give them some honest feedback. Critical feedback is okay. Critical feedback helps as well. Just make sure it's honest. And if you treat people honestly and you communicate honestly and you treat people with empathy and dignity, they're going to do great things for you.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. 100% agree with you. Because as we mentioned earlier, like, you think about how someone has talked to you in the past and how that made you feel, like if it didn't feel good, like you don't want to make somebody feel else feel like that. Right. And I think, like, listening with that open mind, like you said, whether it's the craziest, like, worst idea like, you've ever heard.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Still giving them, uh, that voice and the attention and the reception, like, that's going to make them feel like, okay, even though this idea is not going to work because X, Y and Z, like, I'm still going to come back with another idea, like, or I'm still going to feel like I can come back and talk to you about whatever it is. Right. And I think that's such a, such an important thing to establish, especially in like a, um, fast paced, you know, warehouse operation. Something that's constantly evolving, constantly changing and, you know, constantly has the opportunity to, to have new things evolve and new solutions and, and problems resolved too, as well. So, so really great to, to kind of learn from you here today, Alan, and hear about, like, how you approach this culture and your operations and also like how you're maintaining and doing that throughout the, uh, this high growth that you all are experiencing. Experiencing here. So, uh, so if people listen to this and they're like, oh, um, man, like Lesser Evil sounds like so much fun to, to work there. Like, what's the, what's the best way to maybe learn about, like, jobs you have or, or get in touch with you to, to be able to do that?

Speaker B: Yeah. So, uh, jobs are listed on our website. We use. Indeed mostly. You can always email your resume to the email address on the back of a bag of popcorn. Popcorn. And it will get to the right place. A lot of our hires come through referrals. People come in and they say, man, this is a great place to work. My friend Joe needs a job. Joe comes in. And Joe's a great worker too. Get us your resume any way, shape or form you can, and we'll give it an honest consideration.

Speaker A: All right, awesome. And if people want to find those bags of popcorn you mentioned Costco, but where else can they find them?

Speaker B: We are in 35,000 stores nationwide, so. So Costco, PJs, Sam's CVS, your local grocery store. You know, in the greater Danbury area where we are, I think we're in every local grocery store we are all over the country. So if you look for it, it's probably there. And it's not just popcorn, like we said, it's the extruded snacks as well. They're all delicious. Try them all.

Speaker A: All right, fantastic. And we'll definitely be trying some here at the new warehouse as well. So, Alan, we appreciate you, uh, not only being a listener, but now being a guest on the podcast too as well.

Speaker B: Awesome. Thank you so much.

Speaker A: Great conversation. And we'll definitely put more information about Lesser Evil and how to get in touch@thenewwarehouse.com as well as in the Show Notes. So thank you once again for your time on the show. You've been listening to the New Warehouse Podcast with Kevin Lawton. Subscribe and check us out online@thenewwarehouse.com. Enjoyed this episode. Make sure you are subscribed to the podcast and for more content from the New Warehouse, Find us on LinkedIn and YouTube. Links to subscribe can be found in the Show Notes. And for everything the New warehouse, head to thenewwarehouse.com.