Evo Finance #61 - People, Culture & Risk - Building The Future Of HR In Banking

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the Evolution Exchange Podcast. A melting pot of ideas and inspiration shared by some of the most successful technical leaders in the world. The views expressed by the speakers on this podcast are their own and not necessarily representative of their organization.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Evolution Exchange podcast. As always, we have a fascinating conversation lined up today. Today's guest is Oana, who has spent over 24 years at Nordea. She's moved fluidly between customer relations, leadership, strategic hr, financial crime prevention and cultural transformation. Today she heads the people services for Sweden, while holding functional responsibilities for leadership support across Sweden. Six countries in Nordea operates in. But the most compelling part of her work right now is that she sits at, uh, a fascinating intersection. A new discipline she's helping to build from the ground up that refrains how organisations think about their people, not just to protect their employees, but to understand and manage the risk that they may unknowingly carry. This episode explores what modern HR leadership really looks like, how the threat landscape is reshaping people's strategy, and what it takes to build something genuinely new inside one of the most significant financial institutions into the Nordics.

Speaker C: Ioanna, over to you to do a bit of an introduction.

Speaker D: Hi, I'm Oyana. Uh, I've been in the finance, uh, industry for 25 years. Uh, close to, um, but I was not supposed to be here. Um, I was starting out more in the design area of things, but it was two little social activities part of that. So I started to go into the restaurant business. Um, but then life happened and I decided to kind of test the finance industry for a few years when the kids were small. But, um, here you go, 25 years later and I'm a grandma.

Speaker C: Lovely. I'm going to actually start with how you kind of built your career based on curiosity. So you've spent your entire career at um, the bank, but your path there was not linear, as he just said. So you've gone from customs, relationships, leadership, hr, financial crime, cultural transformations. What has driven those moves? And is there a, ah, thread that you can see running, really when you look back?

Speaker D: I think you, um, kind of answered it a little bit in the question with the curiosity. So curiosity is really, uh, ah, one factor and combining that with a wish to understand where I can create value. So, um, starting the bank on the customer side, very close to that, then moving in to leadership and hr, wanting to come back to the business interaction, um, and then kind of back into strategic HR and then where I'm now leading more core HR capabilities with a twist, I would say, um, but it is that to kind of understand that all the mechanism of a large corporate, we're 30,000 employees. So I think that it is truly important that wherever you are in a corporate like this, you need to be able to translate that into customer centricity. So why are we here? What's the purpose of the company and what is my role? To kind of create that customer experience. Because sometimes it can be hard as an HR professional to see that direct link. So I think that um, the reason why I have been moving around is to understand that animal ah, and to not see ourselves as working in silos with certain tasks but understand uh, the kind of full circle of things.

Speaker C: I think that's really interesting and I think it's definitely something that's really evident throughout what you've done. And I guess you've picked up loads of different skills and brought them into different roles and it's allowed you to kind of move fluidly throughout different changes. Um, one thing that we spoke about previously is to m. Move out leadership to go into hobble, they go back into the more customer sides, they go back into HR to then I guess go back into leadership along that journey. Um, what do you think you've like gained from, from doing that, that side stepping throughout your career?

Speaker D: Well it is reflected in a larger understanding uh, and kind of maybe a little bit different uh from the side of thinking as we referred to. Uh, but it's also to understand the different perspectives and the reason why different parts in my case of the bank, uh, in other cases the organization and why they make decisions and what is kind of the reason for it. So there's something about creating um, a humbleness if you like uh, to ah, the mechanisms of things. So why are things happening? So why is there, why do you do we always talk about value chain and understanding the full value chain and why is it so hard to do so? Because in large corporate life things are complex and when we try to make complex easy, that's when the real work is kind of coming to play. I think that that is the learning uh, that different perspectives are important and that sometimes you need to, to speak the language of the stakeholder you talk to. And if I then bring the customer centricity work sample from an HR person then ah, um, things happen, the conversation just take a new shift if you like.

Speaker C: No, I love answer. I feel like you've executed really clearly a challenge a lot of people have where they are trying to, they're butting heads I guess use the English phrase with a With a stakeholder, ah, who, um, and they can't, they can't figure out why they can't understand. And I think, yeah, it's that speaking that language and I guess from moving different areas you understand that people use different language, where if you've only ever stayed siloed, you only know that set of rules and that set of play. Um, I think that's a great answer. So thank you so much for that. Um, now, something that we get asked a lot, and it's a great question and I'd love to put on yourself as well, is when you step into a new role or take on a new area of responsibility, how do you go about making your mark? Like, what is your approach? In this early stages,

Speaker D: this is the hardest part, especially if you want to execute and if you want to deliver value, it's easier to translate that into space speed. But there's something about, um, going slow and going fast and being able to know when to do so. So some people say that you kind of need to sit on hands and you have these kind of your first 90 days. What are you going to do? What kind of impact do you want to create? I think that, uh, the listening part is the most essential. That's where you create the trust that you really want to learn. So this is where I really need to rely on my curiosity. So making sure I meet the right people to get the understanding of the asses and the asses is not only um, the output, it's also the culture and the understanding of why a culture is the way it is. Because if I want to, as you said, make a mark or make a difference, I need to understand the assets, have like a desirable to be and then walk together towards that. So initially, yes, sit on my hands or whatever we want to call it, but a little bit more, having an interest of spending on where the organization is.

Speaker C: You think that helps you with the people side as well? Because something that I think a lot of people struggle with is when they join a new team. Those people have pre existed that before you. And if you know, you see it only when someone goes into a team, makes a big change or a big move, and they kind of exhaust somebody's kind of emotional connection with someone, it makes it a bit harder to gain that trust. Do you find that strategy that you've executed to uh, help with that situation?

Speaker D: Absolutely. And I think that, uh, I mean I've been like a transformational leader, a change leader if you like. And I've been asked to step into teams to create a shift. So what happens if a person like me step into that kind of a role and you as an individual have really appreciated the leader before and you've uh, felt that trust and you know how to navigate. And then all of a sudden the headline or on my forehead they can read change. And any change that is imposed to you, you will dislike. Like it's an instinct. Because whatever change I want to see in my life, I want to be the director of that. I want to make my decisions. That's, I mean human. That's how we operate. So if you know that someone is coming in and doing a shift, then fear arise. And when fear arise, trust is low. And when trust is low, change is not happening. So I think it is to even more listen into what the fear is about and understand what the wish is in this case for the individual. But it could also be for a collective and I think super important to then be very clear when you have set a direction and guiding star on where to be, to be solid, to stand in that firmly, um, and you then create the trust that if we stand together, we will make this shift happen and it will be a positive experience.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So it's been a longer journey. Just saying we're doing this now. Here we go. It's making part of that decision making process.

Speaker D: Exactly. I mean they have these studies they've done on leaderships and pro filing with that kind of leadership if you like, or management maybe where you, you just tell people where to do and you kind of, you direct with a full hand and you said I don't care, this is the direction, follow me. And uh, that kind of leadership is more management by fear. And, and that can, that can work to some extent. But if you truly want to create a transformation and if you truly want to have high performing teams in that context, you need people to feel safe, you need people to thrive in what they do, to have fun, to create a flow. You don't do that by pointing, I believe.

Speaker C: No, I like it. Um, and I guess that kind of goes on to your role. And so you have functional responsibility in a leadership support across six different countries. So each of them have different labor laws, different employment cultures, and I guess it goes quite nicely into what you were just saying. But how do you build a team that can hold that uh, local expertise while still operating as one coherent function?

Speaker D: But it is important to um, not look at it as the only way is one way of doing things. It's coming back to the strong local expertise you refer to so uh, we need that, especially in this content. It's legislation, so we need to be compliant to a lot of things. What you can gather around is the why, the understanding and the how. And that will create a shared mindset that will increase our ability to prioritize what's important. So it's not a copy paste thing that we are actually after, but it is the um, feeling of being united with the same mission, making sure that the way we get there is to bring our local expertise to a whole and not have um, one way is the only way.

Speaker C: I like that. And I think it kind of, it supports other leaders, I guess, going through that complex, different people matters to have like many ways that unilaterally tied to one big one. Um, what do you think? What do you think the challenge of those leaders who may struggle in those situations? What would you advise them to help them get that unified way?

Speaker D: As a leader, I think it's important to um, be very easy to translate, um, trustworthy, um, clear in how you communicate and what you communicate. So there's something around a, uh, crispness, there's something around painting the picture. And not in isolation to a specific task, but to a greater good. To connect whatever we do to the customer experience, to the purpose of our company so that we feel that we have a purpose. And not purpose as an individual only, but purpose as a, uh, collective and as a corporate. And if that purpose is aligned with my own purpose, that's when magic happens, I think.

Speaker C: And with that, do you set that purpose? How does that come about for you?

Speaker D: I think that every, um, company should have a purpose because it is a little bit describing the why and you can put different words in it, but it's something to gather around. So if you have a clear purpose of the company, you can then translate that into the dialogues in your team. And as a leader you can describe, this is where I find myself in our purpose. And not only me as an individual, but us as a team and us as part of this organization. Our purpose is this. And then if you lead a larger organization, the conversations should be held in all the teams as well. So we make sure that every single one can connect that purpose to my purpose. Because I think that we spend so many hours at work, work. So if, if, if there's like a disconnect between the purpose I see for myself in life and the company I work with, I'm in the wrong place and life's too short. I think that the connectivity that I'm looking for, uh, is to have the conversation around. It starts with me, with me as an individual. I'm part of creating the culture we want in a company and then we need that guiding star. So it's both a top down and a bottom up kind of exercise to connect the two.

Speaker C: I think that's again it's a really great way of explaining how it's kind of like in my visual mind I've seen it like a solar system of like you have that one thing that's tying everybody in but then everybody's got around it. But you can almost drawbacks that were needed to help people understand the change or the direction or the kind of feedback that's been given. I like that. And then another area that I wanted to touch on here. So you've spent years facilitating m cultural transformations within senior leadership. Um, and that's included working with over 300 different leaders. What has that learned? Sorry, what have you learned? I'm trying to get my words out, um, about what actually shifts culture within a large organization.

Speaker D: Well in short, behavior. Um, I'm also trained in cognitive behavior therapy. And in that uh, there's this, this kind of thinking of make um, a movement and things will happen. So if you want to move in a positive direction, take the first step and see what comes with that. And with positivity you create more positivity when it comes to creating a ah, culture you want to see. And especially if you talk about large corporate life, it needs to be connected to the purpose but also the business, the business understanding there's in business not an interest of creating a nice and pleasant culture just for the sake of it. We're here for a reason. We're here to deliver to our customer experience and with the products and services and all that. So how is then the culture supporting that? And if you have a culture that is disconnected from the wished culture, start with the first step. So it's about any um, slogans or slides. It's walk the talk, it's do the work, make the friction happen in the organization when it gets a little bit heated. That's where you should be curious and explore. Ask the questions, why are we here? Do we want to be here or do we want to shift something? It's not happening overnight. It takes time. So be there and nourish that positive step towards the direction you want to see. Because everyone wants to uh, be in the space where we are in a common culture. And let's make that, that is a positive one.

Speaker C: And it really goes nicely into my next question. So I Feel like you've set that up.

Speaker B: Me?

Speaker C: Thank you. Um, but in our previous call, you described a shift in how you helped organizations realize that they need to think about their people moving from purely protecting their employees to also understanding the risk that they might carry off them without knowing it. Um, how do you hold both of these responsibilities at the same time without losing the trust or of the workforce?

Speaker D: I think you are alluding a little bit to, uh, um, the risk side of people. Right. And the risk side, or the threat environment we operate in right now is that there's new modus operandi from the bad guys, if you like. Um, so there's an insider threat that we have not seen before in the same extent as we do today in corporate life. So it is about understanding the employee and the employee's vulnerability and also reliability and then loyalty. So when we talk about that and these three words, because they are important, uh, it is to kind of safeguard the people and the company in combination. Um, because unfortunately we see that recruitment of insiders is happening when people are already working in the companies. So the latest data point I saw, it was 80% of the recruitment of insiders were when they were already working. So, so we need to have some kind of, um, system in place, um, to, um, predict, prevent, but also detect when we see deviations. Um, and you could actually look at it the same role as we have in the finance industry when it comes to financial crime prevention. When we started to work with that, we asked our customers a lot of questions on, uh, where's your money from? And, uh, so on. We did a lot of due diligence, and it was hard for the customer initially because they said, you have nothing to do with it, and so on. It's my integrity. But we were given that role in society to make sure that we safeguard the economic system. But the resistance we had back then is similar to what we, we risk of having now, because it is integrity. And we have legislations that are supporting the individual. So it's to balance that and to understand that I, uh, am not pointing a finger at you. We are safeguarding, in my case, the

Speaker B: bank,

Speaker D: um, from these forces. So therefore, it is to create an environment where you feel safe, where you can speak up if something is shifting. And if you have, for any reason an increased vulnerability, ability, we want you to feel psychological, safe to raise that, whatever that might be that has shifted, because then we can support you and you will not have a risk of kind of shifting your loyalty from the bank to the dark side.

Speaker C: And it does make sense, doesn't it? If you think about it, if you've got, you know, um, I would have seen nothing to hide, meaning it very loosely, but if you, you know, there's nothing kind of there. Ah, but you'd want to make sure that, you know, the people who have your bank details who are paying you each month also have nothing to hide and they're not forwarding that somebody at somewhere else. So I guess it is, seen it from that point of view of if you know that you're surrounded by good people who have your best intentions, you feel a bit more safe to give the answers to those questions. And I guess it's providing that reason, like we said earlier. M. Do you find. Because obviously you work with different geographic, geographical reasons and we know that the geographical picture at the moment has significantly changed, uh, with different organized crimes, different inside embellishment. Do you find that those external shifts changing, do they change the conversation you have of the strategy that you have within organizational risk?

Speaker D: Yes, absolutely. Um, we do, because we need, from a threat perspective translate to what are then the risks from that threat against the, the bank and how do we then meet that risk with different security, um, capabilities. So we do see. And I think that they are coming back again to the geopolitical environment with the war in Ukraine. And I think that that has in Europe, uh, really shook us up, uh, in the dialogue, um, me navigating in the Nordics. Um, we are a, uh, Finnish based company. They have the longest border to Russia. It's evident for them on how close they are to Moscow. So what would that then mean for us? We need to understand that and we need to be aware so that we're not naive. Um, but of course it is a challenge, uh, because we're all human beings. We just need to make sure that we create that safety for people to feel that they can come as they are, but also that we safeguard the bank. So it's a balance.

Speaker C: I say no, definitely. And again, there's so many different things taking place. You need to almost preempt the next one. Don't need to make sure that it's already on, the lights have gone off to make sure it's already on the picture before the next disaster takes place. Um, so I guess it's good to have those conversations early and make people aware the bank's investment into that area before, um, anything takes place. Um, now a few more last questions before we go. Um, and more focused kind of on you and what you've done. So you're in the building phase right now, I think of something that's genuinely new and exciting and it is hopefully going to be a function of framework that doesn't have an established playbook because it is so new. Um, what do you find most energizing about doing something like that? And what is the hardest part?

Speaker D: Well, when there's no clear playbook, there's a lot of uncertainty. So it's to uh, um, then again listen in to the system and okay, where are we, uh, to understand where we want to be? Um, that want to be part is very energizing because then we are in the middle of creating what good looks like. Um, and that is very aspirational. Uh, and of course you want to, to kind of aspire and be in a place and then understand where we are and what are the gaps we need to fill. So in one way it's a very structured way of taking it kind of piece by piece through a journey. Uh, so as we have done a lot of things already, uh, but it's still a lot of things to do. So it's also to kind of line the ducks up if you like, so that we can kind of go, go together in one direction. So it's, it's super exciting times.

Speaker C: No, I love that. And yeah, I get what you mean. Like when you, you're creating kind of the framework, you've got so many nice ideas go around as well and you're really able to bond with people. I want to say in terms of it can't just be one person's idea. It's like the best idea that wins. Then people feel more creative and they feel more passionate about what they're working with. So I imagine it's a lovely working environment to be in when the stress isn't too high.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. And it's also there's something about being patient. I was talking a little bit around that in the culture part that it takes time. But it's also when it comes to this kind of work and doing, exploring something new or different, at least it requires patience, um, resilience. So it's again that ability to kind of stand strong in that we're in it together, we're making this movement than anything else.

Speaker C: No, definitely. Um, and then you have, you are a certified values facilitator. Um, to word that correctly and obviously within that. Again, in our previous conversation you were talking to me about how you believe organizational functions are better when leaders build value driven cultures. Now I think from our conversation today that's come across and it's clearly something you're very passionate about, which is amazing. How do you apply that belief practically within your. Your own team still? What do you do?

Speaker D: Well, it's quite interesting. So yesterday, uh, we had a retirement partner, one of my employees. And as part of that, because I had stored her present, uh, in a place in the office. And just beside, uh, the present, I had all my value cards that I used to work with a lot. Um, and I just picked them up and then I was taking, uh, a moment and just to think of her and then just pick the cards, the value cards. So it's cards with the value on it. So it could be everything from, um, engagement, um, uh, love, you name it. All these cards. So I just took them and I took about five cards, uh, with me. Ah, and, um, I had a written speech to her, but I started out instead with kind of looking at these cards and I spoke to the cards. Ah, and I shared that. I reflected on you as an individual and what you've meant to me and the team, and then I spoke to the cards. Um, it's just a way to involve value conversations in everyday life. Another way that I do with teams then, especially in the beginning. So if you have a room of people who don't know each other that well, ah, and you wanted to create a trust, um, environment, uh, what I did was that I, uh, put all the cards on the table and you can take your own card. And if you don't find the value you want that is precious to you, you can write a value of your own. And then you get to people to talk about their value and how they interpret kind of the meaning of that value and why it is important. And if you've not tried that before, I recommend you to do it because it's really, um, afterwards, a feeling of shoulders down.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker D: People speak of their passion, and they also speak of why they are passionate about that value. So values are, um, truly important. When you know your value, you can create your purpose. And this, I mean, like in large life, um, and when you have that, that can be your guiding star to make sure that you find the environment where you can strip in. And when that is connected to corporate life and that is aligned with the corporate purpose, then magic happens. So I think that that is why it is important. And I think I've said it before, it starts with me is also a very, um, grounded way of saying, if it starts with me, then I need to understand who I am and what I can do. Um, so that's where the connection comes from, like a corporate purpose, values to myself, my values and purpose and how that is translated.

Speaker C: I really like that. And I think I want to steal that and do that with my team. Um, I do a lot on different people and different personalities. And how do you kind of make someone understand and give feedback in a way that they're going to, you know, it's going to work with them, not just work with me. Um, I don't know if you've heard that we use the phrase of like, you don't treat people how you want to be treated, you treat people the way they want to be treated. And you've um, got to think about that. And I actually think I have some quite different personalities in the team I lead and it actually really interesting team to hear about the value. So I'm 100% going to steal that from um, from, from this and go and implement it in my team. So thank you for sharing.

Speaker D: My pleasure.

Speaker C: Amazing. And then we're on to our final question today. And it is one that I like to ask everyone. Um, but you have been in this industry for more than 24 years, um, working in different organizations, very complex situations. And what is the best piece of advice you have ever received?

Speaker D: It's so funny. I have this as part of um, when I facilitate sessions, we usually start with a check in. Uh, and uh, uh, the check in is three questions you need to answer so you kind of gathering people in the room. And the first one is what am I feeling? And it's not how, but what am I feeling right now? Uh, and the second question is, uh, is there anything preventing me for being fully present today? And the third question is optional. And I usually use this question as that optional question because it's like again making you reflect on what is important to you and it's also sharing a little bit on me and who I am. So I kind of had my idea of things, but then I said I'll just actually do a rethink on this question. And for different reasons. This of course changed over time. Um, we were experiencing new things. And the one that I sit with right now, where I am in life is actually a quote, um, um, part of a quote. But this will pass. So this will pass. And then I added keep your eyes on the horizon because the, there's something there, both in the good and in the bad, that puts perspective to things. So uh, in difficult moments it can comfort and you can feel that I'm here right now. But the sun will shine tomorrow. But it will also keep you alert when there's good times. Feeling, uh, appreciation for what life is giving us. So I think that, um, that is kind of putting me in the now, uh, to, uh, in a way, uh, be present here but not stuck. Yeah, defined by the now, but, but still feeling the now and then kind of be directional. Um, so, so yeah, there's something around that I can't put any more specific words on it.

Speaker C: I really like that. I think, um, again, I'm a visual person and you can visualize what that looks like and what that means. Um, so, yeah, brilliant piece of advice and I hope everyone listening can also relate to it and go to their next meeting thinking whether it's going to be a stressful meeting where something's not going to go well, or a project, um, meeting, or whether it be a positive meeting that you've got to think about. Be in the now, but also be aware of what's coming next and be ready for it. I like it.

Speaker B: Tafa.

Speaker C: Well, thank you so much for your time today. I have asked you loads of questions, so I do really appreciate it and you have given loads of golden nuggets, so thank you so much. Um, if anybody would like to reach out to you and take this conversation Further, is your LinkedIn the best place for them to catch you?

Speaker D: Absolutely.

Speaker C: Perfect. Well, now, thank you so much for being a guest today. I've had a great time and hopefully we can do another one of these really soon.