The Next Rules of Work w/ Gary Bolles

1 - > one of the reasons that I end my book"The Next Rules of Work," 2 - > the final line in it is,"No human left behind. 3 - > And the reason I want people to understand that we all make 4 - > decisions, and we're making decisions that we often don't 5 - > think have ripple effects in society, but they do. 6 - > Welcome to"Your Work Friends," where we break down the now and 7 - > next of work. 8 - > I'm Mel Platt. 9 - > And I'm Francesca Raneri. 10 - > We're excited about this episode. 11 - > Every week, Francesca and I read another headline around how AI 12 - > is replacing jobs, changing careers, or just completely 13 - > reshaping the workplace, and honestly, it can be really hard 14 - > sometimes for us to separate what's real from what's just 15 - > hype. 16 - > I don't know if others are feeling that way too. 17 - > We certainly are, and that's why we wanted to talk to Gary 18 - > Bolles. 19 - > Gary is one of the world's leading voices on the future of 20 - > work. 21 - > He's the author of"The Next Rules of Work," and he has 22 - > taught more than 1.7 million, learners on LinkedIn Learning, 23 - > and he's also a global fellow at Singularity University, where he 24 - > helps leaders think about the future of work and 25 - > transformation. 26 - > Yeah. 27 - > In this conversation, we really wanted to know from him what are 28 - > the next rules of work. 29 - > We unpack what AI is actually changing, why young people may 30 - > be the most affected, what org... 31 - > What organizations need to rethink, and most importantly, 32 - > what all of us can do to build a career that's resilient, no 33 - > matter what happens next. 34 - > Because the God honest answer is none of us know. 35 - > So if you are like us and are trying to make sense of where 36 - > work is headed, this episode, and I'll tell you, this 37 - > conversation left me feeling a little less anxious and a little 38 - > bit more prepared. 39 - > And hopeful Gary's just awesome, so with that, here's Gary. 40 - > All right, Gary. 41 - > Everybody's talking about AI. 42 - > I don't think we can escape it. 43 - > It's in every headline, every text message, every conversation 44 - > at work, layoffs, skills, the end of jobs. 45 - > What's actually real versus what is super overhyped right now, in 46 - > your opinion? 47 - > Yeah, absolutely. 48 - > So a couple quick bullet points just to give people the red 49 - > threads. 50 - > If you work in a company that is already highly automated oh, I 51 - > don't know, tech companies, yes, you're gonna find there's a lot 52 - > of work that's impacted. 53 - > If you work in an organization that is very long-term utility 54 - > or government agency or something that's been around for 55 - > a long time and it's not very digital, doesn't have a lot of 56 - > technology in place, you're - it's really slow'cause most of 57 - > the change is about people. 58 - > So those are the endpoints. 59 - > And then what are the frictions? 60 - > That is, what slows things down in how people shift to use these 61 - > kinds of new technologies and what speeds it up? 62 - > So again, speeds it up if there's - if you're already 63 - > digital, it speeds it up. 64 - > If the laws of your country allow you to either fire people 65 - > or change the workforce really rapidly, and it slows things 66 - > down a lot if people have been doing the same kinds of work for 67 - > a long time, if, you're in a country like Germany where the 68 - > laws don't let you lay people off very easily. 69 - > And so you just gotta add all those things up and then decide, 70 - > okay, so given the kind of work that I'm doing or where I wanna 71 - > work, kind of company I wanna be in, either if it's a tech 72 - > company, which also unfortunately is proving a lot 73 - > more regularly that they don't care that much about their 74 - > employees, so they're willing to lay them off pretty quickly. 75 - > Meta did 8,000 workers in a week on one email. 76 - > Or you're in an organization really cares about humans and 77 - > really wants to keep people employed then, and wants to 78 - > train them to be able to do the new work and all those sorts of 79 - > things. 80 - > Then you can do the math yourself. 81 - > And then the thing that really drives people crazy, which is 82 - > perfectly understandable, is that it changes so fast. 83 - > I would say always it's sure the technology have a big impact 84 - > depending upon who you are and where, what kind of organization 85 - > you're in, but it's the pace and scale. 86 - > It's that it goes so fast. 87 - > It's you thought you were using the most recent version of one 88 - > tool and now there's another one or - and then it's affecting so 89 - > many people. 90 - > So it, it's being used in so many different organizations. 91 - > So I tell people, just take a deep breath- Yes, it's gonna 92 - > impact different kinds of work roles, and the more you can be 93 - > leveraging the tools yourself, understanding how they might be 94 - > applicable in your work, awesome. 95 - > The one population we can talk more about this that is the most 96 - > affected though, that doesn't have a lot of control is young 97 - > people. 98 - > That's the five alarm fire we have to be dealing with. 99 - > It's not just AI, it's just the ways that work systems work. 100 - > But they're the ones that are really having the most 101 - > challenges right now. 102 - > Yeah. 103 - > I - We're hearing that if an- anecdotally throughout 104 - > conversations in the day-to-day. 105 - > I have friends who have kids graduating from high school 106 - > right now who are choosing not to go to college because 107 - > they're, they don't see the path, so they're leaning into 108 - > trades, which is great. 109 - > We're also, we have a huge gap there that's needed to be 110 - > filled, right? 111 - > So I'm curious about that. 112 - > What's what might be one shift people are underestimating the 113 - > most right now? 114 - > Oh, good question. 115 - > So- the linchpin, like the part of just how work works where the 116 - > rubber meets the road the most has nothing to do with 117 - > technology, and it's the hiring manager. 118 - > I often use words like manager and supervisor and that sort of 119 - > thing. 120 - > But what most people don't really see in the data, which is 121 - > absolutely the biggest influence, is no matter what 122 - > tools your company uses, no matter what kinds of people you 123 - > traditionally hire, no matter whatever those processes are, 124 - > you have a job opening or you have the opportunity to promote 125 - > somebody inside the organization. 126 - > But you're the one who runs the team. 127 - > What are your incentives and disincentives, especially for 128 - > hiring young people? 129 - > But for any population that is gonna get disadvantaged 130 - > potentially by really rapid change, by a need in, for 131 - > developing new skills. 132 - > So just give an example. 133 - > Two years ago, McKinsey said they were gonna hire less young 134 - > people. 135 - > We don't need'em. 136 - > We can just do a lot of that stuff with tools. 137 - > And then two things happened. 138 - > First is their clients figured out that they were using 139 - > software instead of people, but still charging the same rates. 140 - > Oh, no, you don't get to do that Yeah. 141 - > Yeah. 142 - > We can use the tools too. 143 - > And the other thing they realized is, oh, you can make 144 - > these younger people so much more effective in their work, 145 - > and they can do a lot of stuff that it used to take us years to 146 - > train. 147 - > Oh okay, now we need more. 148 - > So that's what McKinsey just said. 149 - > No, we're gonna actually dramatically increase our hiring 150 - > of young people. 151 - > So lots of variance by industries, but the guarantee 152 - > that especially more advanced degrees or degrees from certain 153 - > types of colleges and so on gave you a big leg up, which was true 154 - > in the past, is no longer as true. 155 - > And so when you've got friends that are any listeners have - 156 - > are parents and have kids that are going through this 157 - > decision-making process, I always tell them you, you - 158 - > first off, I have tremendous concern for three populations: 159 - > young people, their parents, and their teachers, because they're 160 - > the ones that are being so dramatically affected. 161 - > I tell the parents,"Look, the rules you knew about encouraging 162 - > your kid to go to a college and get that degree and amortize it, 163 - > there's still plenty of places where you're gonna have 164 - > traditional jobs and that sort of thing, but it's not a 165 - > guarantee." Yeah. 166 - > So the more you can help your kid to be independent, to have 167 - > agency, to make new decisions, to... 168 - > and it's a logical hedge against uncertainty if what your kid 169 - > does is to do what I call a portfolio of work. 170 - > Yeah, they might get a day job, but then they're driving for 171 - > Uber at night and they're working on a startup with their 172 - > friends and so that, that's a hedge strategy, and it's 173 - > perfectly rational. 174 - > Even though parents ask me all the time,"Why won't my kid get a 175 - > real job?" I actually I think this is a healthy shift in a lot 176 - > of ways. 177 - > Something I've always thought even when I was 18 choosing to 178 - > go to college because I was told that was the path to do. 179 - > Yeah. 180 - > That's what success meant. 181 - > It also felt man, I'm too young to be making these big life 182 - > decisions about what I wanna do at 18. 183 - > Yeah. 184 - > I couldn't even choose a meal. 185 - > It was McDonald's number four, so it's interesting now. 186 - > It's like live life a little- Yeah experience a lot of things, 187 - > get really clear about what you want before you start choosing a 188 - > path is actually a little healthy. 189 - > Yeah. 190 - > It's absolutely, and I'll tell you what the rhetoric, the, what 191 - > was the mindset of parents in the past was that there is this 192 - > tiny little window- Yeah where if the kid doesn't go to 193 - > college, they've missed it. 194 - > Yeah. 195 - > That's it. 196 - > You're dead. 197 - > They're, you're- It's over. 198 - > They're Yeah. 199 - > So a friend of mine - And it varies a lot by culture, but 200 - > there's a good friend of mine from India, and he he went to 201 - > his mother when he's graduating high school. 202 - > He said,"Mommy, Mommy-" I don't wanna go to college. 203 - > And the way he tells the story is his mother just looked at him 204 - > and gave it a beat. 205 - > She said"My son, you have three options: engineer, doctor, 206 - > loser." Oh man, that's harsh. 207 - > Yeah, no pressure. 208 - > No pressure. 209 - > So that's the old rules of war. 210 - > He's"No, okay, I, I get..." He chose engineer, but those are 211 - > the old ru- It's what our parents know. 212 - > Yeah. 213 - > What, what is harder is to, to... 214 - > when they don't feel like they actually can give great advice 215 - > about how to navigate a world of work that, that is changing so 216 - > rapidly. 217 - > And so I just- Yeah I do suggest that, look the thing to really 218 - > be thinking about is how you develop agency in your kid, and 219 - > that doesn't mean making decisions for them. 220 - > It means helping them to make the best decisions. 221 - > But to focus on what's next, and I don't mean tomorrow. 222 - > What's the next step they need to take that will help them to 223 - > be able to launch into adulthood? 224 - > And that's a different question. 225 - > Yeah. 226 - > It's very different. 227 - > Yeah, as a first-gen college student myself, that was the 228 - > ans- They were like,"No, this is it, or you lose at life." And 229 - > I'm like,"Okay." Yeah. 230 - > No pressure there. 231 - > But I'm, it's- yeah so it's a healthy shift here happening 232 - > even though there's some uncertainty, it sounds. 233 - > As long as we give them the tool set. 234 - > Yeah. 235 - > So you wanna give them the mindset, agency, take actions. 236 - > They've gotta develop a skill set, and they've gotta have the 237 - > tool set. 238 - > You have to know how to be able to develop the skills that are 239 - > needed, find out, get the signals from the market, what 240 - > it's looking for. 241 - > Yes, have some North Star that pulls you forward, but also know 242 - > what the job market might be looking for or where there might 243 - > be opportunities. 244 - > And we have to help them early on to crack that code because if 245 - > we don't, then they could be making very tactical decisions 246 - > without necessarily realizing they're gonna have to do this 247 - > again and again. 248 - > There's gonna be a lot of career changes. 249 - > Yeah. 250 - > I said in the past we used to... 251 - > the metaphor we used was a jo- was a ladder, right? 252 - > Career ladder. 253 - > Go to one company and work your way up. 254 - > And then Tammy, who was the former CMO of Yahoo! years 10 255 - > years ago, she said"No, I think it's a jungle gym." You go up, 256 - > and you go down. 257 - > I said, the, what I, the image I show now is a trail network. 258 - > I said,"No, it's a trail network." It's a bunch of trails 259 - > that you could follow, and some of them are well blazed and 260 - > really deeply furrowed, and okay, that's the - what many 261 - > people have done before. 262 - > But you're gonna keep hit these constant intersections in your 263 - > own trail, and sometimes you might just blaze a new one. 264 - > And, if you ask people who've been working for any length of 265 - > time, 30, 20 years, the most common thing you're gonna get if 266 - > you say,"How did you get into this line of work?" The response 267 - > will be,"Oh mine was a very non-traditional path." So trail 268 - > network. 269 - > Yeah. 270 - > And so that's what you wanna encourage your kids, is like 271 - > you're either f- following trails or finding new trail or 272 - > blazing new trails. 273 - > But that's what's gonna happen, is that's the picture to have in 274 - > your mind, is that you're gonna have these range of options, and 275 - > what you wanna do is continually make the best choice you can for 276 - > any particular point in time. 277 - > Oh, I love that. 278 - > You're worried about three people, like the kiddos, the 279 - > parents, and the teachers. 280 - > And I think about in order to really like, traverse a trail, 281 - > you kinda need to know how. 282 - > And I'm curious about the connection between your concern 283 - > with teachers and navigating the trails. 284 - > Yeah. 285 - > So first off, education's not monolithic. 286 - > We - there's very different phases of it, from very early on 287 - > like pre-K. 288 - > But there are still things that, that pre-K - e-even in a pre-K 289 - > world you can do to help prepare kids for the future. 290 - > Sure. 291 - > I'm happy to talk about some of those. 292 - > But then you got this K-12 thing, which is again, it's a 293 - > sort of arbitrary box we put around it. 294 - > But those teachers are supposed to be helping you to learn new 295 - > things and helping you to develop skills and get along 296 - > with each other and that sort of thing. 297 - > And their job increasingly has to be focused or that, that has 298 - > this underpinning, this foundation layer of social and 299 - > emotional learning. 300 - > And if what the teachers keep on doing is inde-heavily indexing 301 - > on the bodies of knowledge that they're trying to s-stuff into 302 - > their kids' heads then unfortunately we're missing the 303 - > narrative. 304 - > That's not the key deliverable. 305 - > Key deliverable is to help them to learn how to learn how to 306 - > manage their own emotions, learn how to get along with others, 307 - > learn how to follow some kind of passion in their lives. 308 - > That's really the key deliverable. 309 - > Unfortunately, a lot of our school systems are not designed 310 - > for that. 311 - > And then in what I call the young adult launchpad, the 312 - > college system, the more that the people that are helping you 313 - > to navigate that the trail, they kinda have to know how it works. 314 - > And unfortunately, there's a lot of people that have been in the 315 - > ivory tower for a long time that haven't worked in the real world 316 - > for a long time. 317 - > They don't... 318 - > they actually are able to help with that kind of advice. 319 - > We're pushing with my c-small consulting company, Chamonix Red 320 - > this sort of mindset of what we call switching from being just a 321 - > college or... 322 - > Not just a college, but being college or higher education, to 323 - > being more of a life center. 324 - > Like how do you help them to actually think of this as a 325 - > launchpad? 326 - > And what are the things you would need to do walking in the 327 - > door? 328 - > Yeah, you would touch the career center as you're walking out the 329 - > door. 330 - > "Oh, by the way, I need a job." Yeah. 331 - > Our mindset we wanna encourage for educators, especially in 332 - > higher education, is now walking in the door. 333 - > You wanna make sure that you are equipping these young people, 334 - > this mindset and toolset for life change. 335 - > And then the skill set, like the skills that you're teaching them 336 - > are going to be durable. 337 - > They're gonna be usable again and again for the rest of their 338 - > lives. 339 - > Yeah. 340 - > So funny. 341 - > My think about tenure and all these systems we have- have been 342 - > in place for a very long time, and they need to rapidly shift 343 - > not only academia and K through 12, and it's oh my god, these 344 - > things need to shift in the next two to three years. 345 - > Yeah. 346 - > That's probably not gonna happen in order to meet the moment. 347 - > Yeah. 348 - > I'm also thinking about orgs and how they need to shift too, you 349 - > talk a lot about moving from like things like from jobs to 350 - > skills to tasks. 351 - > What are most organizations gonna be structured like in the 352 - > next few years? 353 - > We've heard anything from it's the biggest organization's gonna 354 - > be 50 people to nothing's gonna change. 355 - > I don't know if I buy either of those. 356 - > Your thoughts? 357 - > So it's all the above. 358 - > So think of it this way. 359 - > So you've got these endpoints in terms of or how organizations 360 - > are structured, and you're right. 361 - > In the same way that our educational institutions were 362 - > shaped, especially in the West, by the industrial era, so one 363 - > teacher, 30 students listening to mind-numbing lectures for the 364 - > entire time that's a production model. 365 - > That's a factory production model. 366 - > And it's the same thing with our organizations is we've got these 367 - > things called hierarchy, which go all the way back to the time 368 - > of Alexander the Great. 369 - > We've got these things called org charts, which were 370 - > originally pioneered by this little company called IBM. 371 - > And what we've done is over and over again, we've got these 372 - > industrial era processes that sort of shove people into these 373 - > slots. 374 - > And now if you were to take any organization in any industry or 375 - > nonprofits, N- NGOs, government agencies, and you were to wipe 376 - > the slate clean and say from start to deliver the same value 377 - > we do for our customers or our constituents How many people 378 - > would we need? 379 - > How much technology would we use? 380 - > And so that's a high-class question that startups can ask 381 - > because they're just starting out. 382 - > So that's how you get a 50-person company that can do a 383 - > tremendous amount. 384 - > They can automate from scratch. 385 - > They can do - They, they could basically decide, make a lot of 386 - > those decisions. 387 - > But Walmart is the largest employer in the United States. 388 - > They don't make decisions like that. 389 - > They don't make a clean slate decision how, how could we run 390 - > our stores with zero people? 391 - > And so that's what you get, is you get these end cases. 392 - > And so the, the - When I show - I, I talk a lot about to help 393 - > people understand is the industry you choose, the 394 - > business you choose, or if you're a nonprofit or NGO, or... 395 - > There's a business model. 396 - > The reason it exists, it provides value to somebody, and 397 - > that then drives ultimately an operating model. 398 - > How many people do you need? 399 - > Where do they go? 400 - > And there's always a history if they've been around, company's 401 - > been around for a long time. 402 - > What you find is that when you get these big resets, like the 403 - > AI tsunami, is there's some organizations treat it as an 404 - > opportunity to go through this complete rethink, complete 405 - > transformation. 406 - > And so yes, you will get some smaller organizations out of 407 - > that. 408 - > But as with a McKinsey, no, we need more people-'cause you're 409 - > gonna find you can create even more value if you give these 410 - > same tools to others. 411 - > And then if you want - some people find it inspirational, 412 - > and some people find it creepy, but there was a company profiled 413 - > in New York Times a couple weeks ago called Medv. 414 - > And it's two people, and they use AI agents to sell GLP-1s fat 415 - > reduction and weight reduction. 416 - > And it's just two guys brothers, and$1.8 billion run rate. 417 - > Now, the agents make up customers. 418 - > They lie about the fact that they're saying it sell, it makes 419 - > its own products, which it doesn't. 420 - > It's all about just selling and it makes up all these social 421 - > media stories and... 422 - > But it's all agents. 423 - > It's all software doing it, and it's two people with an in- 424 - > incredible run rate. 425 - > So that is the dream of a venture capitalist, is to have 426 - > that quote unquote"capital efficient" company. 427 - > But that's not the future I want. 428 - > I want - I don't want a future with millions of one-person 429 - > companies because I don't think that's actually how you create a 430 - > lot of value. 431 - > I think you, you create a lot more value by humans working 432 - > with humans. 433 - > Yeah. 434 - > I think I'm struck with What is the purpose of organizations 435 - > anymore? 436 - > Because i'm looking at one of the fastest growing jobs right 437 - > now is training AI how to do your job at this point. 438 - > And I'm not trying to be super negative about it, but- No, 439 - > yeah. 440 - > Oh, go ahead. 441 - > We don't - Yeah. 442 - > Let me just go into my... 443 - > We don't have a lot of regulation in this country 444 - > around layoffs. 445 - > It feels like we are in a almost brutal capitalist type of 446 - > philosophy around- Yeah get as much profit, get as much rev as 447 - > you can out of this thing, get as much productive - 448 - > productivity and efficiency out of this thing as you can. 449 - > And I'm wondering if that changes in the future or if it 450 - > gets more- Yeah pronounced. 451 - > It's a good question. 452 - > So you have to go back to the fundamentals is what's different 453 - > at the macroeconomic- picture. 454 - > So what is happening with the global economy. 455 - > And so in a downturn in the United States during - I don't 456 - > know if any of your listeners remember the - there, there was 457 - > a global pandemic, but during the, this global pandemic, What? 458 - > What was that? 459 - > the US went from three point seven percent to eleven point 460 - > two percent unemployment in three weeks- Oops in April of 461 - > twenty twenty. 462 - > And so that's an example of a macroeconomic condition that had 463 - > nothing to do with AI. 464 - > ChatGPT had not been released in early twenty twenty. 465 - > ChatGPT three point five had not been released. 466 - > And and it - but it had to do with macroeconomic conditions 467 - > which created mass unemployment. 468 - > But in, in Germany, they went from five point two to five 469 - > point six percent unemployment because there's a series of laws 470 - > that say it's - you can't l- just lay people off, and you've 471 - > got to train them if you tell them they gotta go find another 472 - > job. 473 - > And so there's these macro conditions, and that has a lot 474 - > of either - it's either an accelerant or it's a decelerant. 475 - > And so in the United States, we don't have an employment system. 476 - > We have an unemployment system. 477 - > You don't get benefits unless you get fired, unless you're out 478 - > of work. 479 - > And whereas what we should have is a lot more resources to keep 480 - > us trained, so we're always having work. 481 - > So then you d- drill down into the organization level and if 482 - > you're working for a tech company, which- is already 483 - > highly digitized and may not care that much about its 484 - > employees, then yeah, you're probably gonna find that you're 485 - > you're one of the fir- you're, you - If you're last in, you're 486 - > probably first out. 487 - > That is, you'll, you're very likely to find there's less 488 - > guarantee that you're gonna be kept employed. 489 - > And so this is why we need to go back to this whole thing about 490 - > agency, is we really do need to encourage people to to have a 491 - > lot of agency and to be continually thinking about the 492 - > next step. 493 - > If you look at the studies with, about young people today if you 494 - > look at the waves, I don't use phrases like Gen Z and Gen Y 495 - > 'cause I always say I don't think this is a new generation. 496 - > I think this is a new species. 497 - > I think this is the next - Young people are the next form of 498 - > humans. 499 - > But but if you look at the waves, the most recent wave of 500 - > young people in work, two-thirds when asked the question,"Are you 501 - > already looking for another job?" Answer,"Yes." And it gets 502 - > a lot less as you move up in age. 503 - > And so this is what we call the era of optionality, is it's more 504 - > and more young people especially, and not just, not 505 - > all young people, and not just young people, but more and more 506 - > young people are looking at their digital distraction 507 - > devices continually watching for market signals. 508 - > Are my friends working on a new startup? 509 - > Does some- does a friend down the street in another job have a 510 - > better boss than I do? 511 - > Or so and their - and that means that their loyalty and the 512 - > belief that they would stay working up the career ladder is 513 - > much, much lower. 514 - > Why do you think the younger generation is a different 515 - > species? 516 - > I gotta know that. 517 - > So evolution, I, it's a little bit tongue in cheek, but it's 518 - > not too much. 519 - > It's because- yeah. 520 - > I got a seven-year-old, I understand this. 521 - > Okay. 522 - > Okay, you got... 523 - > Okay, great. 524 - > Then you got it. 525 - > I'm like, please- All right. 526 - > So- please confirm my beliefs. 527 - > Sorry. 528 - > Oh, yeah, absolutely. 529 - > Absolutely. 530 - > Look, at any point in time, ev- so one of the wonderful things 531 - > about evolution whether you're a massive fan of Charles Darwin or 532 - > you just think of it as a metaphor, is that it's continual 533 - > incremental innovation. 534 - > It's constantly trying out new things. 535 - > And that's true of our genome, that's true of us in societies, 536 - > is we're doing this little steps to test out new inno- and then 537 - > they become waves of innovation when lots more people do them. 538 - > And so when you get a really big shift in behaviors, in 539 - > motivation, in societal context, in a lot of the things that we 540 - > used to think were kinda guaranteed, like why you work 541 - > and, and- when all those things go through really big resets, I 542 - > think you get just a completely new set of motivations, 543 - > characteristics societal constructs, just completely new 544 - > ways of doing things. 545 - > I'd love to talk about this whole AI and human kind of 546 - > capacity value- Yeah piece, because the headlines are so 547 - > mixed. 548 - > Francesca and I are reading the headlines every week. 549 - > It's like people are getting 20% to 30% more efficiency, and then 550 - > the next week it's, no, people are doing double the work 551 - > because the agents are toddlers, and they're not y- there yet. 552 - > Yeah. 553 - > And and then, also companies are seeing real value, and then 554 - > actually CFOs haven't seen any ROI from this with their P&L. 555 - > So there's, like, all of these conflicting stories out there. 556 - > Yeah. 557 - > I imagine there's obviously some real wins happening and some 558 - > real losses happening. 559 - > Where do you see this value? 560 - > W- what's the- Yeah story here? 561 - > 'Cause all this mixed messaging around the value happening here. 562 - > All right, so I'm just gonna give you some quick bullet 563 - > points because it's a broad landscape, but I just want to, 564 - > again, help people to see some of the threads that I've seen. 565 - > So the first is there is no such thing as AI. 566 - > Yeah. 567 - > There's no such thing as artificial intelligence. 568 - > It's a marketing label and it's I'm a child of Silicon Valley. 569 - > I spent more than 50 years of my life in Silicon Valley, so I can 570 - > gently criticize my brethren and sistren. 571 - > But it's a marketing label. 572 - > So the more we say an AI coworker, I used an AI today 573 - > nobody says,"Oh, I used the internet today." It just, it 574 - > becomes part of the woodwork. 575 - > And so we're at this inflection point where it benefits tech 576 - > companies a lot for us to keep on using these labels and to 577 - > make it sound like these are some of the most incredible 578 - > tools that have ever been on the planet. 579 - > In many ways, they are some of the most incredible tools that 580 - > have ever been on the planet, but they are flawed. 581 - > They've got deep flaws. 582 - > They can do incredible things, but they also can do incredibly 583 - > stupid things and in- ineffective things. 584 - > So here are some of the things that happen inevitably, is first 585 - > off, CEOs love this stuff because it gives them back a 586 - > couple hours in a day to automate a whole bunch of stuff 587 - > that they thought they had to do themselves. 588 - > And so they then think,"Oh great. 589 - > Everybody can get the same benefits." And it doesn't work 590 - > like that. 591 - > It turns out that there's a lot of different kinds of work that 592 - > it's r- You can use a lot of these tools to automate a lot of 593 - > repetitive tasks, and that is awesome, and you can change 594 - > workflows. 595 - > But people don't change very rapidly. 596 - > They don't have a lot of incentives to change rapidly, 597 - > especially if the company isn't telling them why they're 598 - > training this software. 599 - > Is it to replace? 600 - > Are you really, or is it to make me more productive? 601 - > So what you find is that there's some use cases where it's very - 602 - > it's automatically really useful. 603 - > Call support. 604 - > So when you call nowadays for any kind of support, the tools 605 - > are gonna likely be answering more and more, and it just 606 - > allows humans to be able to do the more complicated stuff. 607 - > But it also means you often need fewer humans on call desks. 608 - > So that's - There's a couple different applications, but then 609 - > there's a variety of uses, such as with programmers, where good 610 - > news, you can knock out a ton more code than you did before. 611 - > Bad news, you didn't do it. 612 - > You have no idea what's in that code, and you have to go bug 613 - > hunt it, search through a lot more, and you might be spending 614 - > more time- doing the bug hunts than you did before because you 615 - > didn't write the code. 616 - > So it's this sort of technology giveth and technology taketh 617 - > away, and we've seen this in wave after wave of technology. 618 - > And what ends up happening then is several things. 619 - > There's some people get tremendous advantages very 620 - > quickly and they get - And especially startups, you're 621 - > gonna find just are gonna have fewer people. 622 - > That's just gonna happen because they can automate a lot of 623 - > stuff. 624 - > Whether it's really good or not, they're still gonna automate a 625 - > lot of stuff with the tools. 626 - > Bigger companies, they're gonna find some parts of the companies 627 - > that can really leverage the tools really well. 628 - > But again, people change fairly slowly. 629 - > The tools have some flaws. 630 - > There's... 631 - > You can make a lot of mistakes with them, such as opening up 632 - > the, your company's private information to the world. 633 - > So you've gotta actually have a bunch of controls. 634 - > You have to have governance around these things, and that 635 - > slows stuff down. 636 - > So what I urge people to do is don't read the headlines. 637 - > Any article that begins with either,"I asked ChatGPT..." or, 638 - > "Sam Altman says..." Don't read those articles. 639 - > Yeah. 640 - > Just don't read those articles because it's gonna be something 641 - > that's gonna trigger you if you're worried that the 642 - > technology is gonna have, is gonna suddenly be able to do 643 - > everything a human can or we won't need humans at all. 644 - > Don't read those. 645 - > Instead, look for the articles that talk about where people 646 - > have been able to use the technologies to do really 647 - > amazing things in something that you care about, that you're 648 - > fascinated by. 649 - > Those are the ones that you should be looking at because 650 - > that's where you're gonna be able to create value. 651 - > And that's - And for young people especially, I'm not 652 - > telling you have to go become an expert in the tools. 653 - > As a matter of fact, I'm not telling you have to use the 654 - > tools. 655 - > What you're gonna find is that there are going to be certain 656 - > kinds of work roles where people are using the tools a lot and 657 - > then you're gonna be encouraged to be able to use those tools 658 - > yourself because you'll be able to do as much work as others 659 - > can. 660 - > A-a-again, only in specific jobs. 661 - > Yeah. 662 - > I'd love to actually - So we are not anti-technology at all here. 663 - > I think we're more- Yeah cautious adopters of what are 664 - > the things to think through. 665 - > And just to your good point where do you see this actually 666 - > elevating human work right now? 667 - > There's just so many great arenas. 668 - > And a lot of it just depends upon sort of the sniff test or 669 - > the bar you're setting. 670 - > Yeah. 671 - > So if we could wave a magic wand and every human on the planet 672 - > had access to tools or to, to the kinds of advice and 673 - > capabilities that allowed them to be able to find or create 674 - > meaningful, well-paid work, that allowed them to have great 675 - > medical advice, that allowed them to be able to get input on 676 - > how to parent better, that allowed them to become better 677 - > teachers, better - if everybody in the world had access to all 678 - > of the kinds of tools we would like to make sure and access to 679 - > the work itself that we would like to make sure everybody's 680 - > able to use then great. 681 - > We don't need as many of the tools because if you have people 682 - > helping you to do that would be awesome. 683 - > That's not the way it works. 684 - > There's tons of populations that do not have good access to 685 - > medical advice, that do not have good access to, to learning. 686 - > And so there's tons of great examples where people have been 687 - > able to use the tools to do something that they just 688 - > literally could not have done before or that helped them to be 689 - > able to do something, achieve something they wanted, start new 690 - > businesses, learn new skills, connect with people that they 691 - > would never have connected with otherwise be able to do things 692 - > that used to take them hours to do and now they can do in 693 - > minutes that allow them to do other really cool things. 694 - > There's tons of great use cases. 695 - > Unfortunately, in the yin and yang of any technology, there's 696 - > a lot of cases where the technologies can be used for 697 - > ill, where they can be used to hack your brain, where they can 698 - > be used to to violate cybersecurity. 699 - > There's all sorts of negative things that the tools can do 700 - > already. 701 - > And because a lot of the tech companies don't take 702 - > responsibility for trying to mitigate against those ills oh, 703 - > I don't know, social media- it's just a little - it's a lot more 704 - > easy for people to do bad things with the software. 705 - > So here's what we need. 706 - > We need people to be good consumers of the software, use 707 - > tools because they've researched the companies and they know 708 - > who's trying to do this all with benefits to society. 709 - > And you - we really do need to be able to especially help 710 - > parents to navigate the decisions about when kids have 711 - > access to these tools and when they don't because there's a lot 712 - > of other societal negatives such as cognitive offload, having the 713 - > technology make a lot of decisions for you that will have 714 - > some really negative consequences downstream if we're 715 - > not helping especially younger kids to be able to understand 716 - > when technologies are most useful and when they're not 717 - > Yeah. 718 - > I recently saw the latest report on the top uses for AI in 719 - > everyday life, and one of the things that really struck me 720 - > were the outsourcing your thinking piece, which I've seen 721 - > in real time with some younger folks I work with, where I'll 722 - > ask a question- Huh and they'll ask ChatGPT while we're in the 723 - > conversation, and I'm like, "Okay, what do you think before 724 - > you get that answer back, I wanna hear what you think 725 - > first." Yeah. 726 - > Which is interesting. 727 - > And the other was around therapy, which I'm torn on, just 728 - > because in terms of mental health systems in this country, 729 - > there's an access problem. 730 - > And so this is an area where it's really challenging because 731 - > you have those populations without access, like you were 732 - > saying. 733 - > That's a great way to elevate access to people who don't have 734 - > it. 735 - > But it's also now we're potentially outsourcing 736 - > community for people through- Yeah'cause they're going to 737 - > their tech first versus an actual human. 738 - > So we thought COVID was bad when people came out of COVID with 739 - > social skills. 740 - > Yeah. 741 - > So what does the social fabric look like in five years if that 742 - > continues? 743 - > That's top of mind for me. 744 - > What I try to urge people to be thinking about in their own 745 - > lives personally, just for each of us as individuals- is what is 746 - > the level of social cohesion in our lives? 747 - > Yeah. 748 - > How many friends do you - are you active with? 749 - > How many people do you talk to on a regular basis? 750 - > How much do you get out interacting directly with 751 - > humans? 752 - > I would be classified as an introvert, and I know I need to 753 - > work a little harder to go out and do those things. 754 - > And I'm lucky because I get invited to do, lots of talks and 755 - > consulting around the world. 756 - > So that kind of pulls me to do those things. 757 - > But in the age of AI, we have to do more. 758 - > We have to first focus in our own lives how much social 759 - > cohesion we have, and we have to understand that a lot of the 760 - > ways we used to have social interactions in the past, the 761 - > technology can insulate us from. 762 - > We've got - in the US, we have, deep trends towards having fewer 763 - > kids towards less membership in institutions like churches, 764 - > towards less in-person interactions lot of online 765 - > learning. 766 - > And each time we do that, it's really important to think of 767 - > this as a balance in our lives. 768 - > Because with more social cohesion, with more interaction 769 - > with humans, especially in the communities like where we live, 770 - > then the greater society, the greater strength societies have. 771 - > And the more we are individuals and we are less involved in 772 - > interacting with others, and the more we use the tools, 773 - > especially to interpolate our interactions with others or to 774 - > make decisions related to others, then that, that reduces 775 - > social cohesion. 776 - > And so that's just the picture I want people to have is, look, we 777 - > want - we all want countries, societies where we've got these 778 - > strong connections to each other. 779 - > And then in our own lives, just look, we have to look at how 780 - > much time are we spending on that screen? 781 - > And maybe just a little less and, but not just less screen 782 - > time. 783 - > That's what I tell parents all the time. 784 - > It's not about telling the kid less screen time. 785 - > It's I want you to do more going out and being hopefully a 786 - > free-range kid or at least, interacting with others and 787 - > playing games with others and that sort of thing. 788 - > So and you, so you get hooked- Yeah on how fun that is. 789 - > And it's the same thing for adults. 790 - > Yeah. 791 - > Yeah. 792 - > Just getting outside and touching grass as we like to 793 - > say. 794 - > Yeah. 795 - > Or, or- What about- Or humans, yeah. 796 - > Yeah. 797 - > Just be a human. 798 - > Inappropriate, only inappropriate ways. 799 - > Yeah think about this a lot because my son plays soccer, and 800 - > he has a coach that's from Brazil. 801 - > And when you look at soccer and you look at the, how different 802 - > countries play and their ethos towards soccer, right? 803 - > Now Brazilians are so good because they just... 804 - > It's not organized play, it's just organic play. 805 - > They go out and they play all the time. 806 - > They're playing in the backyard, they're playing in parking lots, 807 - > and it becomes like a musical composition where the United 808 - > States it's all organized play and it's about strength and what 809 - > I'm finding is there's this very interesting movement, especially 810 - > in high school on down of it's organized, but it's encouraging 811 - > people to get into organized free play. 812 - > Yeah. 813 - > I'm seeing huge upticks in things like run clubs, dance 814 - > clubs cell phone-less schools. 815 - > A lot of... 816 - > I, my son has structured soccer practice, but he also has two 817 - > unstructured soccer practices, which is just, there's no 818 - > coaching, it's just go. 819 - > And so I think people are starting to understand the value 820 - > of that unstructuredness and learning just the joy of play or 821 - > the joy of being together, the joy of being human. 822 - > I feel like I'm seeing that rise a lot, and there's something 823 - > that's really magical about it. 824 - > I don't think you can substitute anything in the flesh in real 825 - > life. 826 - > I don't, and I don't know exactly what that magic is. 827 - > I like to think it's a little woo. 828 - > But I am also feeling like we're starting to see some rise in 829 - > that as well. 830 - > I certainly hope so. 831 - > So I just finished a lecture tour in Brazil. 832 - > Oh, hi. 833 - > All right. 834 - > There you go. 835 - > This is my fifth time flying into São Paulo in just the past 836 - > year. 837 - > Okay. 838 - > So I'm a very big fan of the culture. 839 - > And so here are some of the things that are just wonderful 840 - > to have. 841 - > It's wonderful to have multi-generational families- 842 - > living under the same roof. 843 - > Not everybody can do that. 844 - > It's wonderful to have some kind of play activities that you're 845 - > encouraged to do from very young. 846 - > Brazil has, is one a- one approach. 847 - > The educa- the the learning system in Finland the s- schools 848 - > all are play-based for the first three to four years that a kid 849 - > goes to school. 850 - > So the more we're helping kids to be kids early on, and 851 - > learning the skills of interacting with each other, 852 - > not... 853 - > We don't always get along with each other. 854 - > I know that's, for the parent of a seven-year-old that's probably 855 - > a new memo. 856 - > But we d- we have these frictions with humans get in 857 - > interacting with each other, and we're to learn. 858 - > Yeah. 859 - > And that's what all that social emotional learning stuff is 860 - > about. 861 - > What I would hope then is, yes, more and more because we thrive 862 - > on social signals. 863 - > We thrive on recognition, we thrive on conne- authentic 864 - > connection with other people, and we have to also thrive where 865 - > there are frictions. 866 - > We have to - The more we can make those heterogeneous 867 - > gatherings, not just homogenous ones where everybody looks like 868 - > me, but they it's comes from different perspectives or 869 - > different backgrounds and then that's what we want as societies 870 - > because we really want that kind of interaction, and then we want 871 - > to always over-index on what connects us. 872 - > Yeah. 873 - > That's very fair. 874 - > Yeah. 875 - > I wanna flip to like what that means in an organization you've 876 - > talked about moving from rigid hierarchies more towards access 877 - > to talent, and I'm curious about what that actually looks like in 878 - > practice. 879 - > So there's a couple of things that if we could wave a magic 880 - > wand and we could have organizations be very 881 - > human-centric. 882 - > That is to structure work and the interactions between people 883 - > in work in ways that really work for the majority of humans, is 884 - > there's a couple of things that you would want. 885 - > And there's organizations all around the world that are doing 886 - > different parts of this playbook. 887 - > So first thing is that the organization's heavily indexed 888 - > on what I call a degree of membership. 889 - > So how much of a connection do people feel to the purpose of 890 - > the organization, what they're doing, to each other? 891 - > And so that degree of membership is you might feel 1% membership 892 - > with your organization, which means you're just about ready to 893 - > walk out the door. 894 - > You might feel 100%, 110%, I'm all in. 895 - > This is where I need to be. 896 - > And what we need is the mindset within organizations that we 897 - > want to try to increase this. 898 - > Second is that depending upon whose statistics you look at, 899 - > either the number one or number two reason that people leave 900 - > jobs is because of their... 901 - > I don't use the word manager or supervisor. 902 - > I call that a team guide, but the person who leads your team. 903 - > Yeah. 904 - > And if there's frictions there and it's not great then that's a 905 - > really high reason for you to be looking for new work. 906 - > So the organizations that heavily index on the training 907 - > for that person to help them to know how to lead and to helping 908 - > people within a team to know how to lead as well, all the, that 909 - > investment is really important, or else you don't get a flexible 910 - > organization because then you s- people stay locked in a 911 - > hierarchy. 912 - > Third, you have to have this mindset that you're trying to 913 - > help people develop as humans. 914 - > And so how do they know their own skills? 915 - > How do they know what they're good at, what they love doing, 916 - > kinds of problems they like to solve? 917 - > And then how can you continually try to make the kind of 918 - > framework inside the organization so they can be 919 - > doing that kind of work? 920 - > So that, what ends up happening then is some organizations 921 - > become what are called increasingly skills-based 922 - > organizations, so they know they've got databases to 923 - > understand people's skills. 924 - > They often put in project marketplaces- Yeah so that when 925 - > a person who leads a team needs somebody, they can find the 926 - > skills in- inside the organization or outside the 927 - > organization. 928 - > ChatGPT just announced a a, OpenAI just announced a 929 - > partnership with Upwork the gig work platform, where you can 930 - > literally go into ChatGPT and describe a project And then the 931 - > software will look on Upwork's database and give you the team 932 - > of tomorrow, like the perfect skill set for something. 933 - > So now think of that in every organization. 934 - > And think of the same thing from the ind- individual side, where 935 - > they would be able to see those opportunities, especially in 936 - > larger organizations. 937 - > That's what the future may hold, is that more organizations 938 - > become more fluid like that, and they become... 939 - > They - What they need is a flow of human talent, people that can 940 - > continually solve new problems. 941 - > And what individuals need is to continually have optionality, is 942 - > to understand more about their own skills and then be able to 943 - > solve the kinds of problems that they most like to. 944 - > And and so a lot of organizations already are 945 - > starting to experiment with these types of things. 946 - > And the opportunity is to create more flexible organizations 947 - > where you just are able to continually bring in, especially 948 - > young people. 949 - > We need to make sure that this really works for young people 950 - > through apprenticeships and mentorships. 951 - > But where they're able to do more project-based work, and 952 - > they're able to be focusing on generating output so they can 953 - > point to the things that they've accomplished and developing new 954 - > skills as rapidly as possible. 955 - > Who do you think is doing this really well? 956 - > Because I've been in this space for my entire career. 957 - > We've been talking about things like job marketplaces since 958 - > 2019. 959 - > Yeah. 960 - > The needing manager development and having great managers and 961 - > coaches is something every organization is always working 962 - > on, and I'm curious about who you think is doing this really 963 - > well. 964 - > Yeah. 965 - > So there's a couple facets to it, and I'll just point to some 966 - > of the different kinds of structures. 967 - > So as I think I was saying, so that you've got this business 968 - > model that sort of defines what the organization does, and the 969 - > operating model is: how do you organize humans? 970 - > How do you leverage technology? 971 - > Yeah. 972 - > How do you leverage the assets of the organization? 973 - > And there... 974 - > So when it comes to focusing on being a learning culture and 975 - > changing the role of the traditional manager, I'd have to 976 - > point to Novartis the pharma company, and I think it's 80,000 977 - > employees now. 978 - > And they have two practices that I always point to. 979 - > The first is they strongly encourage everybody throughout 980 - > the organization to talk about the latest course that they 981 - > took. 982 - > It's all about what are you learning. 983 - > And then once a year, they have what's called Curiosity Month, 984 - > and they teach courses to each other. 985 - > Might be in cooking, might be in something related to chemistry. 986 - > But it's - the whole idea is to build this fabric of connection 987 - > between people and to learn from each other. 988 - > And then they also have a practice called unbossing. 989 - > And even senior managers within the organization, when they walk 990 - > into a meeting, they often will begin by saying: How can we 991 - > unboss this meeting? 992 - > And what that means is, how can I not be the person who comes up 993 - > with all the decisions? 994 - > You come up with the decisions. 995 - > You solve the problems, and then I'm here to support you. 996 - > I'm here to find you the resources. 997 - > I'm here to remove roadblocks if you need other parts of the 998 - > organization to help you. 999 - > But you have to change the calculus by which humans are 1000 - > working together and embrace this much more flexible 1001 - > approach. 1002 - > And then the mindset that is behind more project-based work 1003 - > is is typically to think of the ev- every skill within the 1004 - > organization as being an enterprise resource. 1005 - > Companies like Google actually don't hire in certain work 1006 - > roles, a specific, for a specific job. 1007 - > So if you're hired as a programmer at Google, for 1008 - > instance, you go through the same training program that every 1009 - > other programmer goes through. 1010 - > And whether you went to a code camp or Carnegie Mellon, you're 1011 - > gonna go through the same training. 1012 - > And then when you come out of that, you date around. 1013 - > You go to different groups to find the c- where the 1014 - > connections are. 1015 - > And and it's a, that is a mutual decision. 1016 - > Do I think it's, it is, it's very much like dating. 1017 - > Do you, do I think you're a good match? 1018 - > Do you think I'm a good match? 1019 - > And so you think of these as practices that can be done at 1020 - > scale inside organizations, it's harder because you've got to 1021 - > train that team guide. 1022 - > You've got to train the former manager or supervisor to deal 1023 - > with ambiguity, to be able to understand that they've got to 1024 - > continually be developing skill sets, to be thinking more like a 1025 - > coach than somebody who is in command and control. 1026 - > And so that's a, that's an investment. 1027 - > Yeah but I'm encouraged to see more organizations that are s- 1028 - > starting to embrace more of this mindset. 1029 - > For sure. 1030 - > Awesome. 1031 - > Thank you. 1032 - > Thank you. 1033 - > I only have two questions for you. 1034 - > Okay. 1035 - > What responsibility, Francesca and I are constantly talking 1036 - > about this with the changes that are coming about with AI 1037 - > layoffs, and we see them k- you know- Yeah when we think about 1038 - > the responsibility organizations have in society right now. 1039 - > What responsibility- Yeah do you think companies have right now 1040 - > in this moment? 1041 - > So first off, again, just the AI layoffs it's very difficult to 1042 - > tease this out of the market data because it's a lot of tech 1043 - > companies are the ones that are citing the use of the tools, but 1044 - > they're also marketing tools to - that kind of sounds more 1045 - > like layoffs are marketing. 1046 - > Is that how it works? 1047 - > Buy my products'cause it'll save money? 1048 - > So it's hard to tease out of the data. 1049 - > What you do find is more of this sort of initial baselining of 1050 - > companies decided they don't need as many young people, or 1051 - > they don't need as many people in entry-level work because they 1052 - > feel like they can replicate a lot of the work with the tools. 1053 - > So when you say responsibility I would say organizations that are 1054 - > very shareholder-driven, the understandable pressure that a 1055 - > CEO feels is to reduce headcount. 1056 - > And what I urge people who lead in, especially large 1057 - > organizations, but any shareholder-driven company, it 1058 - > takes courage to say,"Look, what has happened over and over again 1059 - > is companies have gotten these new technologies, they laid off 1060 - > a whole bunch of people, everybody, including their 1061 - > competitors, has access to all the same technologies, and 1062 - > within three or four years, everybody's got access to the 1063 - > internet, everybody's got web servers, everybody, all wave 1064 - > after wave of te- everybody's got cloud computing, and then 1065 - > now everybody's got the AI tool set." You are going to regret 1066 - > that you got rid of some people who really understood your 1067 - > customers or really understood the processes in your 1068 - > organization, and now the tools give this baseline, lifts all 1069 - > boats. 1070 - > And so that's what I encourage from a responsibility 1071 - > standpoint. 1072 - > Say, look, it takes courage to go back to your board, to go 1073 - > back to your shareholders and say,"Look, we are making this 1074 - > investment because we know we can be more competitive, or we 1075 - > know that we can provide more value to our customers, and we 1076 - > are going to dedicate ourselves to doing that in the most 1077 - > effective way we possibly can." What are you most hopeful for? 1078 - > I call myself a cautious optimist. 1079 - > So I've been accused of believing that people will 1080 - > continue to make human-centric decisions. 1081 - > But one of the reasons that I end my book"The Next Rules of 1082 - > Work," the final line in it is, "No human left behind." And the 1083 - > reason I end that way is I want people to understand that we all 1084 - > make decisions, and we're making decisions that we often don't 1085 - > think have ripple effects in society, but they do. 1086 - > They do. 1087 - > We're very responsible. 1088 - > And and so the more that I see examples of people all around 1089 - > the world who are saying wait a minute. 1090 - > No, we actually can make better, more human-centric dec- 1091 - > decisions. 1092 - > We actually can give people the tool set so they can solve new 1093 - > problems and create new value." I'm just encouraged by more and 1094 - > more of those stories and signs. 1095 - > And then I'm also encouraged because I'm starting to see 1096 - > educational institutions that are starting to get the memo, 1097 - > that this is a time and opportunity to be able to 1098 - > jettison those industrial era processes, and instead to 1099 - > empower lifelong learning and lifelong work with this unique 1100 - > tool set, but continually by reinforcing interactions with 1101 - > humans. 1102 - > And I see there's plenty of great examples around the world 1103 - > where educational institutions are transforming themselves as 1104 - > well. 1105 - > Awesome. 1106 - > Thank you. 1107 - > I appreciate you, Gary. 1108 - > All right. 1109 - > Always great to talk to you two. 1110 - >

Speaker 6: Thanks for joining us today. 1111 - > Music was by Pink Zebra. 1112 - > This episode was produced, recorded, and edited by yours 1113 - > truly, Francesca and I of"Your Work Friends." And we're an 1114 - > indie pod, folks. 1115 - > We drop new episodes each week on Tuesday, so please 1116 - >

Speaker 7: come back to check them out. 1117 - > Subscribe on the platform of your choice, and if you want one 1118 - > big meaty insight about work every single month, subscribe to 1119 - > our newsletter on yourworkfriends.com. 1120 - > Bye, friends. 1121 - >

Speaker 6: Bye, 1122 - >

Speaker 7: friends.