From Cigarettes to Smoke-Free: What Real Transformation Actually Takes w/ Philip Morris International's Dr. Kaleen Love

And so having that in the back of my mind, always trying to assess. Where power sits, how people feel about it and what people do when they feel powerless has been a really interesting angle into understanding organizational dynamics and people in general. Welcome to Your Work Friends. I'm Francesca and I'm Mel.

And we are breaking down the now and next of work so you stay ahead. Mel, I am so stoked for this conversation. I am too. This was a good one.

Today, we're talking with a leader that is going through one of the most complex transformations out there, moving a traditional cigarette company to a completely smoke-free future. Who's that person? Well, that's Dr. Kaleen Love.

She is the chief people and culture officer at Philip Morris International, legacy cigarette company I enjoyed some of their products in my 20s. I was more of a candy cigarette girl, but- Philip Morris International, legacy cigarette company, it's publicly committed to going smoke-free by 2030, and that's not just a rebrand. That's literally a company trying to reinvent themselves while still operating, and this is typically the place where most transformations fall apart, but not Philip Morris.

No, no. I think that's what I loved most about the story that Kaleen shared with us is it's not a theoretical use case. This is something that's happening in real time, how you move an entire organization when the stakes are really, really high, when there's deep history and roots, right? People really align with what it is over here, but now you're trying to take it to something completely different, and that system doesn't magically reset because leadership just said "You need to do this."

In the conversation, we were getting into all of the behaviors that actually drive change within the organization, not just the strategy, the power behind some of those conversations, why resistance is often something else entirely that people need to pay attention to, and why you can't manage change at scale. You can only really lead it. I thought that was an interesting takeaway from her is you can't really manage change. You just have to lead through it and keep adjusting.

So if your strategy is changing and your organization hasn't, this one is for you. Here's Dr. Love. Alright, Kayleen, thank you for joining us.

Okay. I'm gonna dive in because your origin story to us is so interesting and we love social scientists. We love all the research, but so before you got into PMI. Your background is super interesting.

Having worked at NGOs, you also worked at McKinsey for a while, and that obviously must bring a very unique perspective to the work that you do. What's the most useful thing from social science that helps you leading people in culture today? That journey. Because I'm still a big nerd I prefer geek as a term.

I think I'm a super geek. I'll talk a little bit about anthropology as a discipline. Yeah. And then a little bit about political science, because both blended a bit in my social science background.

So from anthropology. I did a lot of ethnographic field work back in the day, like literally in villages, in government institutions, and all of this was about studying people really intently, really studying them and looking to understand people and people in structures. That's the sociology piece of it. And all of that was done, and I'm gonna use this like fancy social science word with this notion of reflexivity, which means I myself am part of the research and I have to be always conscious and aware that my identity and my perspective is also influencing my interpretation of events.

So this notion of everything I'm observing is also something I'm interpreting, which means I need to look at myself and scrutinize myself and then reexamine the situation. But I'm always part of the equation. And that's really important because I think as we, in the environment I'm in now in this particular role, leading hr, leading people, I need to be very conscious that I have my own biases, my own thoughts, and put myself into the way I study and learn the organization and study and learn.

I'm having my own reactions and I have to make sure that I'm constantly examining and taking up my own bias. And that's something I learned as an anthropologist and as this ethnographic, field researcher. On the other side, I mentioned political science. I learned a lot from political science about theories of power.

Who has it, who doesn't, what power looks like. Everything from a. Luke's versions of like levels of power. Is it just, I'm gonna boss you around and you're gonna have to do what I tell you to like setting the agenda, who sets the agenda?

Has power to getting people to believe a certain outcome. Is there a deep expression of power or things like, again, I promise this will have a point. James. Scott, a political science talking about, there's a book he wrote called Weapons of the Week, and he talked about this notion of.

The poorer classes, it's oh they're foot dragging. They're being slow to do a thing. They're responding slowly. And this notion of foot dragging is actually an act of resistance when you're powerless.

So a lot of times when these organizations are like, Ugh, why are these people not just doing what we want them to do? Why are they not just taking the action? We've been really clear, this is what you need to do, et cetera. And all of this can be interpreted often from the lens of who has power and who doesn't.

And this notion of passive resistance, again, am I trying to demonstrate almost and embrace, like I still have autonomy, I still have agency, I still have ownership by foot, dragging by moving more slowly on a thing. And so having that in the back of my mind, always trying to assess. Where power sits, how people feel about it and what people do when they feel powerless has been a really interesting angle into understanding organizational dynamics and people in general. Yeah, power dynamics influence behavior all the time.

Especially leading through change. That's one of the biggest things. So with your social background and studying all of these things, one of the things that we were curious about, obviously this is a great superpower of yours, but does it also give you this kind of level, like you're not a psychic, but in some ways do you just start to see like the train wreck that might be coming right away or even the goodness, right? Are you just picking up these signals pretty easily along the way?

I think everyone has on some level these sort of spidey senses, right? This human intuition like that person's shady or great. Or, because again, we, you mentioned this is like energy management, right? Like we are as humans, hardwired to pick up on these energy, this vibe, right?

So I think everyone has that to some extent. I think. Perhaps the one thing my social science background has given me is the ability to navigate between what am I reading at the individual level and what can I understand about the system or the structure. That would give me an insight into the individual behavior.

This goes back to what I was just saying about like power. Who has it, who doesn't? If someone feels powerless, and I can see that in the system, all of a sudden they behave a certain way and you're like oh they're behaving that way because they're trying to reassert a sense of power or they're not. So there's this, when you can go between the parts and the whole, the parts being all the people and the whole being the system and the organization and the politics of the organization.

I do think it gives a little bit of insight into. Why people do the things they do and where things might go wrong right at the system level. So I'm not gonna pretend to be a, I'm definitely not a psychic. I have no crystal ball.

I'm probably not even a deep like empath intuitive like many people are. I am. I'm hardwired, I don't know the Myers-Briggs. I'm a T I'm a thinker.

Yeah. So I have to hypothesize on the feelings based on my understanding of the structure. So it, but it definitely gives some insight into why on earth would well-intentioned people that I believe can be good people behave in these kind. Odd ways sometimes, and it's, it often goes back to how we understand the system, the structure and where they fit in that, and the power they feel or don't feel in that environment.

Yeah. I wanna talk about this because you're at Philip Morris International. Obviously most of us know Philip Morris as a cigarette company, a tobacco company. I indulged in your products in my twenties and had a very good time.

Philip Morris International, PMI, has said they're going to have a smoke-free future by 2030. And that is such a big shift moving into things like zen, smoke-free things. What does that internal transformation look like? So I joined in 2021.

Yeah. When this was in flight. I would say three steps. And they're not really or linear per se.

But the number one thing I think has been. Getting so clear on the purpose, the mission, the vision and the amount of buy-in across the company from our group, CEO or us, CEO, all of our leaders down to every person you ask, there's a sense of we get the problem statement, we realize we may have been part of creating that problem statement and we're committed to a healthy outcome for the world. We are committed to actually, positively impacting public health by moving, right?

Providing scientifically substantiated better products for legal age smokers. And I think that's phenomenal. So I think the sense of a compelling why and really getting everyone bought in has been essential. The other two things that have happened over that decade or so, decade plus.

Is they had to, from a talent perspective, really open the company. So there was a new mix. We had to bring in a lot of external, and this was, I was on the tail end of more of that external hiring, but really injecting new talent with new perspectives from other companies, CPG, et cetera. And then I would say over the past, some y fewer years it's been, now we have a new mix and now we really have to make the mix work.

We've gotta make sure there's so much goodness and the legacy culture and drive and ambition and caring for people. And now how do we bring in the new thinking, the different perspectives and really put that together into a mix that works. So it starts with the purpose and the why from the top all the way down to the front line, and it's been very intentional from a talent mix perspective and then a ways of working perspective to bring it all together. Typically when you're merging the legacy folks that have always known it as this, right?

I have been at companies before where we're moving from a sports company to a digital company, for example, and everybody's oh my gosh, we're getting rid of sports, we're losing our sense of the sport ethos. And I'm curious about how you deal with that idea of, but this is who we used to be. As you're merging in new people, what are some of the ways that you've handled that? I'll speak more about the US context.

And so in the US specifically, we have a smoke-free business and then we acquired again Swedish Match. And we've been working to integrate and come together as one company. I think that there's a lot to be said for how you honor legacy And lean into the future and if you're dismissive of it at all. If we are dismissive of the past and don't honor legacy, like it's really hard to move on from that because there's pride there and the world looked a certain way and the company performed a certain way.

And again, what Swedish Match did in North America has been phenomenal. And now how do we come together, acknowledge, legacy, honor it, and then say, what are we gonna do together to move forward? So I think that there's a lot to be said for, not dismissing, but instead really honoring the legacy and what's good from that. And then collectively saying, now how do we together build something new together versus you come be like us.

So there's no new, there's no the, if you think about a from two, the two is still under construction, the two is being built every day, and how do we just make sure that everyone feels part of that? Yeah. Yeah. I love that idea too, of paying homage to the legacy got us here, right?

And it's greatness to build the future with. It's fantastic. Yeah. I see a lot of we're moving here.

I. This is the full focus and not paying homage, I think is such a miss. So I love that you're doing that. I'm curious I heard that when the headhunter called you for this job, you initially were like, yeah, no.

So I'm curious why, and then what changed your mind? why was the Philip Morris International? I know what that comes with. and I was like, no, thanks.

And literally what they said was just they said, hear us out. Have a few conversations. And I said, fine, I'll have a few conversations. And what compelled me was in every single one of those conversations.

The absolute commitment and buy-in of every individual to the direction of travel of the company and what that meant. And so I mentioned earlier this notion of purpose and why and buy-in is so important. And that was what I heard. So I ended up saying yes to PMI and I moved over to Switzerland for a role.

It came down to three things thing. One was, I'm someone who has a background in change and the scope and scale of P i's transformation is audacious. It's pretty bold to say the least. And so I was like I wanna be part of that.

That sounds awesome. And the second is, again, I come from this more social science international development background. What. Better way to have an impact on the world than to help meaningfully change health outcomes for the billion smokers in the world.

There's still a billion smokers in the world. That's a lot of people. People, yeah. That absolutely sounds like a win.

I also think just the what you need for change and the idea that all of the groups were aligned on the vision, on the mission, on the purpose, and having that ability to just get your people strapped through that is so huge. It's so rare, honestly, to have that level of alignment as well, and then have it at such a huge scale. I can see why you would jump at it for sure. Well, We did a lot of research, obviously on this merger.

All of the things that have had to take place and you're leading it. So one of the things that we read that we loved by the way, is you said culture isn't a program. Couldn't agree more. It's how you codify who you are in your best days.

What were some of the things that you. Have done to help codify that culture knowing you're bringing these legacy groups and new people together all of the time, what have you worked? What's worked what can other people learn from? Let me talk first about the actual codification of it, because it was a really cool exercise.

I'm now here at PMI us leading people in culture for the US business. But my first role at PMI was in Switzerland leading global strategy, organizational strategy and. As part of that, I had the privilege of kicking off the first group to look at this question of culture. And they were like anthropologists.

They were basically cultural anthropologists. It was like, okay, these are my people. But what they did is they actually went across the organization and with these focus groups and surfaced what was authentically descriptive. PMI on its best days.

So it wasn't like an external, let's go have a framework or the orientation to some of that original codification was literally that. Let's really deeply listen to and understand. What it feels like and looks like on our best days at PMI. And from all of that was like the first, and then I moved on and this kind of research continued and was played back and tested and all of that was ultimately crystallized in what we call the P-M-I-D-N-A.

And the P-M-A-D-N-A has three values and then behaviors underneath each of those values. But it comes down to we care. We really deeply care about our people, and this is more about inclusive behaviors, self-awareness, empathy. I.

We're better together. And this is around collaboration, building trust, celebrating the successes of others. And then last, but definitely not least, we're game changers. This is a company that gets, I don't know if I'm allowed to curse, gets stuff done.

A lot of stuff. We're really game changers. And this is about. Again, resilience, agility, take, being willing to take risks, being willing to drive for impact, having courage to keep going.

And when this was quote rolled out, it didn't feel like some culture program that a bunch of consultants had heard People could see and hear and feel themselves in those words. So I think that's what's made it so sticky. I talk about this word about like culture and change programs will only be how to make 'em sticky. And in order to make them sticky, you really have to have them resonate with people because they're from people, they're from the people.

They describe it as oh, that's it. That's spot on. This is us at our best day. And so that's, I think one of the most important things to do in a quote unquote culture is it can't just be aspirational.

It can't just be let's sit around and say, we'd like our culture to look like X, Y, and Z. It actually has to describe you today on your best day. Yeah. And in a way that goes, people goes yeah, We can do that.

That's us. Maybe not us on a grumpy day. Maybe not us on a tired day, but that can be us. That is our best self, so let's go do that.

I think that's one of the most powerful ways you can make sure. That culture becomes sticky and really helps to continue to guide and shape behaviors. Yeah. People seeing themselves in it for sure.

And then also it feels honest, like this is who we really are. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

People reach out to us all the time to talk about their work stuff, and we've seen that, that pop up over and over again, just like these star players who stay, even though they're really impacting the organization in a negative way long term. And leaders have to be bold and brave to deal with it. It's not easy. It's, every organization has these, like who other people who are more protected than others.

And that just, that's gonna create a space. And organizations keep delivering. People keep working. But if you really wanna take it seriously, even if you really wanna address it, and you really wanna create that more.

Fair, inclusive, and frankly, long-term successful culture, you have to deal with it. Can I go off on a tangent for a hot second? I was just having this conversation. I feel like a lot of organizations are getting rid of their renegades.

Like they're getting rid of the people that are like chirping up a little bit, or people that are a bit more bold. And I am not saying that these people are perfect by any means, but I feel like sometimes what gets left, especially in big layoffs, are people that are more like, they're great. Like status quo. Yes.

Yeah. Compliant. Compliant. Yeah.

And when I'm looking at where we need to be from a human capability perspective. No bueno. Yeah. Your thoughts.

Uncertainty is a breeding ground for anxiety. Yeah. So when people are anxious. We tend to focus in on what's safe and what's known, and so I think what you might see, what we do see happening in today's world, and this is the whole Maslow's hierarchy of needs, safety, and security are foundational to the kind of pyramid of human needs.

It's really nice and good to be like we're all gonna go self-actualize and do yoga and become our higher selves. But it's scary. It feels uncertain. The landscape, the employment landscape, like all of these things.

So in that broader context, I think of social and economic unease. The safer thing to do is to take the safe choice. And I think organizations that. Are led by individuals who are willing to face their fears and be a bit braver and maybe take the hard call or allow the louder voice.

I think it takes some courage. Again, I'm not gonna say PMI us has it perfect or we have it perfect, but I will say, I think that there's an element of kind of courage that in our leadership where. We don't always go with a safe option with, from a talent perspective. And we, I often say this I'll have my team might get mad at, we're trying to roll out this change and let's, so and so is really resistant.

Oh, okay. Annoying. And I'm like, actually the person who's the most resistant person in that moment. Oftentimes it could just be a jerk.

Or oftentimes there's people who really deeply care. They actually care about the outcome, and as a result of caring so much about the outcome, they think your idea is dumb, so you better listen to them. And so I have to coach my own team through anyone who disagrees with me is resisting me to no. Oftentimes those people who are the most resistant are the ones to your point, or Jessica, who.

Want the good outcome and are just challenging how we get there. So it, it has to happen at all levels in the organization. It takes a level of openness and courage to take the risk. I think there's risk taking involved with that.

Yeah. It's that boldness and courage I think is so key. I keep hearing that. Mel and I keep talking about this.

What's the profile of the new C-suite? The new board, right? The new leader. As we're moving through such rapid change and bold and courageous, keep coming up for us because it's not easy.

I don't wanna act like it is. And it takes that ability to lean into the disagreement, lean into the resistance, and, check yourself, what's your location on it? Why are they coming from this place? I think these are all great things that we all need to do.

It's almost go slow to go fast on people's feelings. Yeah. People are going through a lot right now. When you're going through these big transformations, how do you prevent burnout?

How do you prevent people from feeling oh my God, this is another change. So thing one is you can't fully prevent it. You can role model it and create space for it. Yeah.

Good call. Because I still believe in human agency and autonomy and but. Role modeling in space is super important. For better or for worse, I sign off virtually every single one of my people in culture team meetings with first thanking the team and then saying, remember, take care of yourselves and take care of each other.

Full stop. That's my sign off. And recently brought together some of the people and culture leadership at an offsite, and we ended the offsite with the CEO of not EAP, not employee assistance program but a wellbeing platform that we're looking to bring on for our employees and really having a serious talk about, I don't wanna call it self-care. It's about putting on your own oxygen mask first and.

Unless we as leaders are very clear on how we ourselves create. I don't even, I don't even boundaries. It's just energy. You talk about energy, like how do I make sure that I, Kayleen can show up every day, not just for my team at work, but I gotta be able to come home into my kids.

I have to be able to come home to my kids and not bite their heads off when they're being super annoying about something because I'm stressed about something at work. I have to manage my energy across all of these domains, and so does every single one of our employees. And so I think it goes back to, we mentioned the very beginning of this conversation, the future is gonna look even more human than ever as machines begin to take up some of the intellectual labor. And if the future's gonna look more human than ever, as machines, again, support the processing of information and data, then I think we've gotta learn as humans to manage the whole system of what makes us human, which includes our bodies, our energy, our brain, our hearts, our souls, our minds, all of those things.

And that's just, that's not some. Highfalutin, whatever, like that's like science, that's neuroscience. It's physiology. It is the science of humans.

And so that's a very long-winded way of coming back to how do I show up calm with my own energy managed. And hope to give space to my team to also take care of their families themselves and their team members as we go through so much change and so much work all the time. Yeah. Man, I really love, can I just say I'm having this moment.

If we asked you this question like 10 years ago, it'd be like it's about work life balance. It's about getting some yoga in and now I love that the conversation is this connection, this network of energy management, of really thinking about what do you personally need in order to show up. Calm across the board in life is it's just refreshing. And frankly, if I just sometimes joke, I'm a recovering workaholic, right?

Yeah. But the reality is if I was just like chilling at home, I don't know, eating bon bons and watching tv, I would be a hot mess. I wouldn't be my best self because I want to feel productive. I wanna feel connected to people.

And so it's not work-life balance, go sit home and then go to work. To your point, it's really about. Managing energy and it's, again, it's not about just what you do, but it's about how you show up. Yeah.

And ultimately we can only control ourselves, right? We, there's a lot out there in the world that we cannot control. But if we can show up as our best selves, both professionally and personally, because we've been thoughtful about how we manage our energy and how we integrate our thinking and our embodiment, all of that good stuff. That's gonna work.

And by the way, just side note, I'll go on my little tangent. So I wake up every morning at 4:15 AM Oh, when I'm in town, when I'm not traveling. Okay. So then I can go to CrossFit.

So I go to CrossFit at 5:00 AM during the week when I'm here in Connecticut and everyone's oh, Kaylee, and so disciplined, blah, blah, blah. I'm like no. You don't understand. This is essential to my mental health.

I need to get up, and for me, this is my way. I need to do something that's high intensity so that everything else feels easier the rest of the day. I was like, I already went through pain and suffering at five in the morning, and so now when I'm in that meeting later in the day, I'm like I'm calm, I'm cool. I've worked the energy outta my body and I can show up as the self I need to be.

That's how I manage some of my energy. Now not everyone needs to like grunt and lift weights and torture themselves at five in the morning, but whatever it is like that has been, that's instrumental for my mental health and my overall energy management during the day to make sure that like I, I start my day that way. Yeah, so it's, again, it's very intentional. I'm getting you the, this vision of you like flipping 80 pound tires down the street.

It's just like everybody else is easy after that. You're like, I just finished five wads. Great. Alright.

I wanted you, you did briefly touch on that the work is gonna become more human. Which I genuinely hope that happens and that there's still work. I am on the fence about this. I get ner, Mel knows this.

I get super nervous around are we all gonna become farmers and plebs, or is this gonna be really cool? I'm not quite sure. I am curious, though, around this touch point now, like at least in the next 18 months when we think about where I, where AI belongs in people decisions or not. And what's your stance on that?

Where do you fall on that? In the near term for sure, if you think about AI enabling personnel, I think that's what you're talking about. Like people decisions in the workplace. Human still has to be in the loop.

I think the concept is, back in the day if you think about kind of productive cognition or basically any organizations. Ability to take what its people think and convert it into value. So that's like how people think productive cognition. So back in the day, it was basically how, what you knew.

And then could you collaborate well and reduce friction and produce an outcome. But then you've got AI showing up. And what AI does is it removes all the constraints on information and intelligence, frankly. So that's great, but now it's gonna become.

The productive cognition. And this comes from Prasad Shetty, who was the original kind of VP people analytics at Google. So I'm quoting him to be clear, I wanna give him credit for this. It's now about your judgment, your ability to decide well, to judge, multiplied by, the intelligence and information you're getting.

And then plus whatever AI will do, just deliver independently, all of that to say you have to have judgment. You have to have human judgment and judgment is simply the ability to decide. When the decision isn't clear the answer isn't clear. The stakes are real, and you own the outcome.

You own the outcome. So if you are in an organization and you own the outcome of, I need to make sure that I've got the right people in place with the right structure and skills so that we can go deliver, you can't. Give that up and outsource that to ai. Humans have to be in the loop and they have to ultimately be accountable and they, at the end of the day, AI can't be held accountable for decisions we can.

Yeah. Super fair. Yeah, I'm it is fascinating. Just side note, the speed in which, like HR tech just in general has increased, like we just came back from Unleash and just the AI native.

Startups that have come onto this scene as fascinating. Some of them, I'm like, do you guys have a lawyer? Is this actually legal? And then others.

I'm like, all right, this is pretty cool. Where the hell was this when I was in hr? It's it's an interesting time. It's such an interesting time.

Let me tell you my, our chief or our lead employment council, she's the best. And yes, these are very much questions that HR has to tackle. Minimum with legal because there carries a lot of risks. You're like, if the machine made a hiring decision, how, who now is accountable to the organization if they made the wrong decision or if they made a biased decision?

Yeah, it's clear when it's a human in the loop. So it's a very tricky problem and we gotta make sure that we're not only following the law, but like really thinking ahead to where the law is going on these topics and how, how as an organization can you remain ethical and compliant. It's tricky. It is.

Yeah. We were looking at some companies, that's a tangent. Nevermind. I'm sorry.

Yeah it's, it is fascinating. I love your tangents. And then this guy over here. Yes.

You're like, this is the weirdest interview I've ever been in. Okay. We're gonna end with some hot takes in some moves, especially around org transformation. So I'm gonna ask you some questions and you provide your answer.

That'd be lovely. All right, here we go. What's one behavior most leadership teams say they don't want, but are guilty of rewarding or ignoring every single day? So if I can flip it, I'll say one of behavior that leadership teams say they do want, and then what happens.

I think what you hear a lot about, I want to empower, like so I'm a big fan of Dilbert comics. If you remember the Dilbert comics of the day, one of my favorite all time Dilbert comics was when. This employee is being given a badge by the boss, and the boss says, we are this, and the employee's I don't wanna, and the employee, the employer says, you have to. And the last you know, screen is the employee wearing a badge that says, I am empowered and.

Look, we all know and acknowledge that empowering our people and really making sure you have an organization when you're harnessing the discretionary energy of everyone, but everyone is bringing that and you've got good thinking and pushing, thinking, and it's not just this top down mandate. We all know that. But get success. We all know this is, go back to the very first conversation.

We, the very beginning of this conversation where, no one of us is smarter than all of us, right? And so we know that, but we also talked about how we live in this era of heightened anxiety and stress. And again the stats prove that out. Stress has existed throughout history, but it's real stressful right now.

It's real uncertain. There's a high level of anxiety. And so what happens in those times is people revert back to control. What can I control?

What can I manage? And so I think that there's this tension between I want empowerment, and I know that's good. On the flip side, it's scary to let go and or feel like I'm letting go in all of these variables. And I've seen that sometimes in my view and it's something to be aware of, I think for all leaders.

Yeah, it's, yes. Isn't this an age old issue too? I remember doing manager, managers don't delegate, right? It's like this, like it starts there and then it just extrapolates up.

The higher you go in leadership, it's a fascinating, it tale. As old as time. All right. What's the biggest myth around organizational transformation?

That you can manage it. I often, we talk about change management and I always just start by saying, let me stop you right there. There's no such thing as change management. You cannot effectively manage change at scale.

You can manage it at micro level. I can convince my daughter that she's got a, I don't know, brush her teeth a certain way, but to really work towards big picture health, it's, it can't be managed in that way. And I think this is the shift in change management to. Change leadership, change role modeling and knowing that there's never gonna be a from to, there's no end state and there's no plan that gets you from here to there in this perfect way, man.

Yeah. Like a sub theme here, which is like giving up control. Yes, ma'am. Okay, got it.

Courage and boldness. Yeah. Listen, Seinfeld. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm getting a little woo on the pod and I like it. All right. Okay.

What's one belief about work that you've changed your mind on in the last three years? Kind. This goes back to what we were just saying earlier. Yeah.

That it's less around work-life balance and what you just do. I just, I deliver, and if I deliver, I'm gonna be successful. And it's more about how you show up and the energy that you are able to bring over time, particularly as a leader. I'm not saying at every level in the organization, a factory worker or frontline but there is a lot to be said for how you show up and how you build relationship and how you manage your energy.

To continue to show up in the right way over time. Again, in that human-centric human plus machine world is gonna be more important than ever. Yeah. What about for employees?

If you're an employee is, if you, what would be your advice to an employee navigating a change in their org, which I think is probably 99.3% of employees right now? What would you say their lens needs to be? Should be might, you might suggest, I don't wanna control, sorry.

Lemme do, I'll go back to the word control we used earlier yeah. I quote this, and it is not meant to be any religious context, but I often quote this the sort of serenity prayer. Which is, and I'll de religious fify it, whatever but how do I be, get real clear on what. I can't control what I can control and how do I know the difference?

And if I can control it, I need to have the courage to change it, to take action. It's usually that's what can I do on myself? If I can't control it, then I need to find a way to reconcile and make peace with it. And I need to be wise enough to know the difference between those things.

This is, the courage to change the things I can. the peace to accept the things I cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference. Yeah. And honestly, that's maybe as simplistic, but it's incredibly important.

We can't control things, so we have to find a way to make peace, to change ourselves. A lot of times people love change, but it's, you change. It's no. For things to change first I must change and that sort of note, what will, what I control is what I can change and how I show up.

Otherwise, I have to find a way to make peace with some of the things around me and be both courageous and wise and calm and accepting the things I can't control. Yeah, it's such sage advice. It's funny how like these, like I know it's a prayer. I don't know when it came.

Let's say it was in the 17 hundreds. Isn't it Irish? I have no idea. Somewhere around there.

But it's sage advice. Yes. Some shit doesn't change. Do you know what I'm saying?

It's really, but it's hard to do and I think it's very hard to look at yourself and realize that you're a part of this equation that needs to change. I think that's one of the hardest things in life. Didn't really realize that until I was about 37, by the way. It takes some time.

Quickly on that one is, yeah. We tend to not realize it's that we are the problem like everyone else is the problem. Again, I became a mother and all of a sudden when my 9-year-old is looking back at me and I'm like, wait a minute. I think she's being me right now.

And I'm like annoyed with her. I'm like, oh. When you talk about, sometimes you need to have hold the mirror up to really understand that you might be part of the problem or you have an opportunity to yourself change, kids will help you with that. So there is a notion of like growth wisdom that comes with time and realizing no, I have opportunity.

And it's not just about everyone else. Around me needs to change. What is my opportunity to change, to show up differently and to help others along the way and just how I show up. Yeah.

Yeah. You talked about having a mission and a vision and a purpose an organizational level. I honestly think if you can do that for yourself as well and lean into the way that you wanna show up, agreed. Good takeaways for everybody that are going through change right now.

I wanna just add one last thought for folks. I was listening to a podcast this week, just building on this last conversation, just thinking about the things that are within your control. I love the Serenity Prayer is somebody who grew up around. Folks through anonymous stuff.

I think it's just a really healthy way to be. But for any other fellow anxiety folks who are going through change this audio book I'm listening to said, anytime one of those feelings pops in your mind, just start keeping a running list and designate 15 minutes a day. And at that 15 minutes that you've designated, that's your only time to worry about those things and go through each item and just say. What's in my control here?

What isn't? If there's nothing you can do about it, let it go. If it keeps coming back, keep adding it to your list, but try not to give it more than 15 minutes a day of your time. I love that.

It's like when I'm trying to get my twins to sleep and I put a timer on Alexa for two minutes for them to run around screaming like hooligans and so they can let the energy outta get out. Same concept. Yeah. Get out, have it, give it air, give it breath, and then move on.

We love to rapid round. Couple of quick questions just to get you to know you a little, be better as a person are you game go for it. All right. It's 2030, not far away what's work going to look like faster?

More fluid and a lot more augmented. So a few things. You're definitely gonna see human and machine and every human will have their machine, their copilot thing. One thing too I've been saying a lot this, a lot jobs are gonna be bundled differently.

Jobs are work bundles, and those bundles are gonna have to be reconstituted as work itself is either automated or augmented. And I think that's gonna mean thing three, that employment itself is more fluid. And talking to my team about fractional work and how we actually build a pool of talent and a talent pipeline that's willing to consider fractional gigs in a slightly different way. So I think overall, this notion of fluidity and motion with human plus machine, which on the other end of that is gonna be more human than ever.

You're gonna have to have more of a human heart to things. And that sense the importance of belonging and identity at the heart of all of it. Yeah. I love that to hear the human side of things being pulled through.

What's one thing about corporate culture? You just wanna see die off already. Can I say big meetings? Is that allowed?

Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Meeting culture. Cut the meetings.

Yeah. The back to back busyness there. What's the greatest opportunity you think most organizations are missing out on right now? I think there's still an opportunity to tap more into our higher selves, into things like joy and gratitude and purpose even more meaningfully.

If work is gonna become more human-centric with machines coming to sit alongside us in org charts, then we need to bring and embrace, I think some of those more positive attributes in a world that just seems crazier and scarier than ever. Yeah. Amen to that. What music are you listening to right now?

Anything that works well for a kitchen dance party. So we blast our sono speakers. My twin girls were nine. My mom, my partner, all the pets, cats, dogs.

We have kitchen dance parties. So it just has to have a beat. And a good like through, through melody. Okay.

What are you reading? Audio books count by the way. Fantastic. I'm a fiction reader, so I'm not gonna pretend that I'm super fancy and give you my latest business book.

I tend to read a lot of science fiction and fantasy, but right now I'm leading reading a series of books by Lisa Gardner. She writes about this character called Frankie Elkin, who is this just middle aged lady who goes around trying to help find missing people. And it's these really interesting character driven mysteries that I'm finding myself really enthralled by. Lighthearted or are they like both?

They really span the gamut. So the most recent one, it was both the US exit from Afghanistan and immigrant communities in Tucson, Arizona. But then there were reptiles and Petya, the iguana in the mix. And so it's like all over the place with some really heavy topics, but a lot of brevity as well.

Super fun reads. Ooh. All right. I like it.

Sounds really interesting. Good recommendation. There you go. Yeah.

I like a good fiction book recommendation, by the way. So thank you for sharing that. Who do you really admire? My mother, the Reverend Fran love.

So she is phenomenal. And I think we'll talk a bit later about this notion of resilience with agility. And my mom is strong, like bamboo is strong. She can bend and flow.

And, but she's underneath that super steel, but underneath and then flexible on the outside. And she seeks beauty in her life in a way that's taught me how to also source my own soul from beauty. I love that. It's really beautiful.

What's a piece of advice you'd like to give everyone? Advice. I tell this to my team a lot. I say, you will always find what you go looking for.

If you go looking for the world is dark and scary and full of terrors and people don't accept me and I'm not doing a great job, you will find that if you go looking for the world has pockets of beauty and I'm doing some good stuff and I'm finding my path, and I have people who like me, you'll also find that, and I believe that we as people can actively go looking to feed our inner selves in a way that my dad used to call the attitude of gratitude. Can you have an attitude of gratitude?

Can you find and go looking for joy? Can you find and go looking for goodness? And you can change your attitude and you can change your mindset if you're really intentional about it. ​If you haven't been listening for a while or you're catching up, or you're new here, we launched a newsletter, if you want one.

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