Women still aren't taken seriously in construction with Kimberley Chut

Speaker A: I think being a woman and being, I would even say even just a person of color, you feel like people don't take you seriously or they, or sometimes they feel like you don't know what you're saying or they don't believe you and they always have to double check. And so it's become quite a big learning curve for me to sort of stand up for myself. I was at a moment where I wasn't sure what to do with my career. I was, uh, at a moment where I thought I should be a senior. I wasn't sure anymore. And I was told that it would be really good if I just put my stilettos on and join sales. And I just didn't know what to do. And especially coming from someone that's so high up, you're sort of afraid to say anything. Every job, you're either learning or you're earning. If you're not learning something and progressing your career or you're not earning good money and having a big passion for it, what are you doing?

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Speaker C: Hey, welcome to another episode space by Stancons. Today I've got Kimberly Chutt, EC1 build, head of Pre construction. Head of Pre construction at EC1 build. There we go. Go rounding around. Um, thank you, Kimberly, for coming in. I love talking to designers, I love talking to end clients, landlords. But there's something cool about pre construction. The nuts and bolts side of it.

Speaker A: I understand. I think I've always referred to precon as like the engine, the engine room of construction. Because your whole job is bringing everything in, making it work, prepping it up to support delivery.

Speaker C: Yeah. And then it hands all over. You're such like a middle cog as well.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: Like you got to pick it up and pass it on. Oh, it's like a relay.

Speaker A: Right. It's such a weird space because it really depends on the projects as well. Where I could be super hands on even into delivery, or I could be really hands off and sort of say, okay, here's everything. Run with it. And so it is a very weird middle ground.

Speaker C: How did you get into it?

Speaker A: I was an estimator for eight, nine years and I really fell into that. I had a random recruiter message me and was like, have you ever heard of fit out? I have no idea which one. And I got a job and I loved it. I absolutely fell in love. I actually studied civil engineering at uni, and so I was a big math and physics person. Really, really into it. But when I came out, I just didn't know what to do with my most. Do you finish uni? You're a bit lost. Um, and I fell into this and I've loved it ever since.

Speaker C: So you just came out of uni into estimating?

Speaker A: Pretty much. I had a small stint as a property manager for a bit because I thought, oh, I want to do property. Everyone thinks property is going to be so fun. I was so bored. I was so bored. I was doing it for about eight or nine months and I would spend half my day not doing anything. I was like, this isn't life. I was like, what am I doing myself? So I didn't know what I was doing still. I was 21. And then, yeah, I got picked up by a recruiter, fell into the world of fit out and I just stayed.

Speaker C: Your heritage is Thai land?

Speaker A: M. So my parents are from Thailand, which means I'm Thai. Um, but I was born here.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So very mixed culture.

Speaker C: Cool.

Speaker A: There's a word that they use, it's luk krung, which basically means like half child. And, uh, it's more for the people that are sort of both English or like Western and Asian. But I kind of fall into the category because I sort of don't belong to either fully.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So if I'm over there, I'm not considered fully Thai. And if I'm over here, I'm not considered fully English. I sit in a. In this in between space.

Speaker C: Yeah. I've heard a saying from lots of people that have come from overseas. Everywhere is home, but no one, nowhere's home.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly.

Speaker C: And if, you know, you know, that's a very, very deep saying.

Speaker A: I could go back to Thailand and then be there for two weeks and think, oh, I kind of miss England. And then exactly the same here. I'll be here and think, oh, I haven't been to Thailand in so long. And it's exactly the same. I love being in both. I don't feel like I fully belong in either.

Speaker C: Yeah, I can imagine yeah. And in construction as well. Male dominated, British kind of alpha men. What's the hardest thing about having a Thai heritage and being a female in the role?

Speaker A: I think the biggest thing is having your voice heard and being taken seriously. I think that's a really big thing for people. Also in my generation of ah, just having imposter syndrome massively. And I think being a woman and being, I would even say even just a person of color, you feel like people don't take you seriously or they, or sometimes they feel like, like you don't know what you're saying or they don't believe you and they always have to double check. And so it's become quite a big learning curve for me to sort of stand up for myself. I was always the little kid that hid behind my mum's legs and I never wanted to speak up and I was always really shy and actually having a lot of difficult conversations and lots of difficult experiences throughout my career as formed me into a person that's got quite a strong backbone now. I sort of, if you don't agree with me, um, it's quite easy for me to sort of stand up and say, okay, well that's your opinion. I'm going to move on and move and that's it. And I've had a lot of experiences in my career where I've had to do that and sort of say, I don't like the way I'm being treated so I'm just going to have to walk away.

Speaker C: What's the worst thing that's been said to you?

Speaker A: I've got two in my mind. Okay, I'm here for that. One of them was from a very senior person in a company. Said I was at a moment where I wasn't sure what to do with my career. I was at a moment where I thought I should be a senior. I wasn't sure anymore. Um, and I was told that it would be really good if I just put my stilettos on and join sales. And I just didn't know what to do. And especially coming from someone that's so high up you're sort of afraid to say anything.

Speaker C: Wow.

Speaker A: Yeah, the other one I'm not so sure about. Um, the other one's pretty bad still. But someone said to me, um, you should drink a cup of concrete and toughen up. And I just thought, would you say this to a man? If there was anyone else, would you have said this? Is it because I'm a woman? Is it because I'm a person of color? Especially with the stereotype of a lot of Asian women especially the stereotype is that we're very submissive, you know, we have no backbone and we could be walked over, uh, very easily. And so in those moments I was just like, okay, well, I'm not going to stand for this. Just going to walk away.

Speaker C: Good for you.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it makes such a big difference when you're in a company that you know appreciates you and know that they don't see you that way, but you don't realize it till you're gone. You know, you don't realize how hard it is to be in that situation when you're not appreciated until you've moved on.

Speaker C: You've never had anything different.

Speaker A: Exactly. Uh, I've met so many people in my lifetime now that aren't happy in their jobs because of abc and they don't realize that things could be better if things were different.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: And they think that what they've got is the best that they can have. And I think that's such a big stereotype of the past because everyone's always said you need to stay here for five, ten years. You don't. If you're not happy, you're not happy. You know, I have a big saying of every job, you're either learning or you're earning. Right. In every job, if you're not learning something to progress and progressing your career or you're not earning good money and having a big passion for it, what are you doing?

Speaker C: Yeah. Where do you get your work ethic from?

Speaker A: My mum, My mum, my mom, My mom, um, yeah, massively. My mom is one of 11 children.

Speaker C: Oh.

Speaker A: And she again, she, um, one of 11 children and grew up in a slum pretty much in Thailand and her and her sisters moved over here when she, my mum was about 40 years ago, so I think she was about 20 something. 20, 30. She knew no English, she went to English school here. She picked up two jobs at the same time. She was working her ass off all the time and she made it to become a really successful businesswoman. She had three kids, single mum, three kids, raising us all whilst becoming the entrepreneur she is. And I just, I look at her and I think, I don't have kids, I don't have a husband. If she can do that with all of that, why can't I? You know?

Speaker C: Never told her that.

Speaker A: All the time, all the time. And she goes, it's okay, Kim, you don't need to work so hard, baby. No, mom, I need to.

Speaker C: That's amazing. That's inspiring. That's really inspiring. Do you feel that, obviously it's been tough being a female woman, um, kind of Thai background, that that's presented challenges. What do you think are the benefits or how it might have helped you?

Speaker A: I've actually learned that people are so good at their jobs because they've come from different experiences and the variety of experiences that we have out there, it has built such characteristics for everyone that they're so good at their own individual items. And so the designers or estimators, you can meet five or ten of them, but based on their different experiences in life, they'll attack a job very differently. And there's all this saying of a type A or a type B person, I'm all of it combined. I'm absolutely all of it. But it's because of my work ethic and it's because of my experiences that I can be pulled pillar to post. I won't be happy, but I'll do it knowing that there will be an end goal, knowing that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. And I think I get that from my mum because she probably worked her ass off for five, 10 years before she saw something coming back. I think about her first business that she built. She lost 70 grand in seven months and she's got three young kids and it was panic, but she kept throwing, she kept going, she kept going and at the end of it, she was comfortable, she made her money, she became successful. And it's just one of those things where it builds resilience into you. And so I think my experiences of being not, maybe not always directly put down, but always felt like I was not heard has made me become very resilient. And me now, uh, having my own team, I think it's made me want to be a good manager for them. And I think I'm hoping my team would agree that the effort and attention I give to them and support I give to them makes them want to be better at their jobs as well. And it boosts the whole team as a whole.

Speaker B: I find it simply fascinating how physical space can totally change how we think, feel and, um, behave. Meaning it can pause distractions, it can connect us, it can mean we do our very best work. And that's where Stanson's steps in. This show is created by Stansons, who design, make and install curtains and acoustics to create the perfect environment for people to flourish and do their very best work. You've got a project on, um, we know how it feels. Reach out and we'll start to talk.

Speaker C: I'm not saying to tell someone to drink concrete is ever right under any circumstances whatsoever. But I do know from my own experiences, which are very different, of course, but it's the times when someone's actually been really rude or really unfair or something like that that is actually built a constitution in you. It's built like something solid, like giving you a backbone that you're almost grateful to them afterwards.

Speaker A: Almost.

Speaker C: Actually. Thanks for showing me how not to do it. Now I know how to do it.

Speaker A: You'd be surprised how many people, how much I've learned of what not to do in this industry. I have had some really incredible managers and also some managers that I would never want to talk to ever again specifically for us. But at the same time, I have learned so much from each and every experience I've had again of what to and not to do.

Speaker C: What's the biggest difference between being an estimator or being a pre con and then having a team to manage?

Speaker A: I always refer to estimating as being like the dungeon monster, which I don't want to say is a bad thing at all. I think it's a great thing sometimes I think estimators are always seen as the weird people of, of the industry and, and it's not. It's just you, you like what you like, you're good at what you do. And sometimes you have those days where you're just going to bury yourself away from everyone, put your headphones in and just get on with it. Pre con is a bit more, I don't want to say salesy, but you're taking into account it's more of leading a client down a road.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker A: Leading them through the whole process, hand holding all through the process of design of everything like that and managing that process. The world of traditional and versus D and B are so different. But I can see more and more now how much they intermerge with each other. That especially with EC1, we're very hybrid, we do a bit of everything. And so developing those skills in all those areas have become very important. And now managing a team and trying to understand people's characteristics and understand what they like doing has posed a bit of a challenge of workload almost of trying to understand, okay, well, you're better at the traditional things, let's give you the traditional things. You're better at at design, you're better at D and B, let's give you these things. And so finding that balance has been interesting. I didn't realize becoming A manager would be so much of managing people's expectations and emotions and everything other than their skill set, you know, because I know certain people will prefer a certain job and certain people won't like other jobs. And so trying to keep people happy at the same time, it's a big thing of it, which I didn't expect.

Speaker C: Great. What's the most common, like, mistake that, uh, cost a client a lot of money?

Speaker A: Not actually understanding the cost of installation, which seems really obvious. But, for example, if a client says, oh, I found this amazing tile. It's beautiful, and it's only 30, 40 pounds a square meter, they're thinking, oh, uh, they're only paying 30 or 40 pounds square meter. And most people don't think about, oh, actually, you also need the grout. You also need trims. You also need the labor for it. You also need the delivery cost for it. All of these extra things that people don't think about. And it's a common thing with architects as well. No shade to some architects, but some of them don't think about it. And so when I'm there, uh, saying, oh, that whole floor is going to cost you 20 grand. They're like, why is it 20 grand? The tiles are only eight. I was like, well, because of all these other things that you haven't thought about. And so it's one of those things where the price always creeps up because they're not considering all these extra things that are really important. Trims is a very important one that people always forget because they're just like, oh, uh, yeah, you're tiled and tiled and you're done. It's not like that. Um, there's so many little, little items that people forget.

Speaker C: I was only laughing because that person's me. You know what?

Speaker A: It's me, too.

Speaker C: I am, like, looking at this and I'm just like, oh, that's not that much money. Oh, what about the. I can totally. Everything is, you know, drew me in that. That's perfect. It was hilarious. If a client, what's the easiest way for them to save 100 grand?

Speaker A: There's a saying of, uh, slashing, burning. I hate the saying. I absolutely hate it. Slashing and burning. So you've priced everything. Let's say I've priced everything and we're sat at 3 million. They're like, I need to save 100 grand. You have two options. You either v a bunch of things. Ve is a whole process in itself. Where you're looking at. My favorite one is different tiles. Love a different Tile or just different paint finishes or one I'm looking at most recently is swapping out joinery partitions for really heavyweight curtains. Massive saving. Save them about 70, 80 grand. M I know. But there are certain projects where you have already ve as much as possible and at that point you're gonna have to slash and burn to get your cost. And I hate doing it because you end up losing the essence of what the job is. I think the big problem is that people don't understand the cost of things. And so we get to this point of full designs ready. The clients already put in a lot of money on architects and services designs and we get to the point of okay, well this is how much the job is going to cost you. And they're like, oh, uh, with 2, 300 grand in the budget and the idea of slashing Bernie is painful because the clients have already fallen in love with their big feature pieces. Their big feature pieces might be 10% of the job though. That's the problem. I think having a budget upfront is always the way to go. And being very upfront of this is the maximum we can spend. And designing to a cost.

Speaker C: Mhm. And what's the most important money that they can spend? If there's one thing that you just don't ve like, what must you keep? Right.

Speaker A: I don't think people understand that the lights are not just plonked anywhere. There's a whole lighting design that has to happen. There's whole lux levels that need to be measured. The same as all the mechanical. All the levels need to be to a certain standard. It's very difficult to down spec mechanical and electrical. And so what uh, I've ended up doing quite recently is when when clients are feeling like they need to save money, I will tell them what their base level costs. Uh, are without anything architectural. I'll tell them your mechanical, your electrical, your builder's work is going to cost you this much to just get you an open space and then you only have this much to play with for anything architecturally. And so it's very difficult to bring any cost down on mechanical electrical unless you're looking at different manufacturers. And even then m, it's quite difficult

Speaker C: important to keep the lighting right 100%.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker C: I like. Thanks for, thank you for pointing that one out. Because it's easy, isn't it? It's easy to spend the money on the pretty little fluffy bit. But some of that base level is actually people's health and wellbeing.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly that.

Speaker C: So yeah, no that's great. Oh, amazing. And when you've been doing projects, you learn from your mistakes. What's the biggest mistake you made?

Speaker A: Oh, there's so many.

Speaker C: We're humans, aren't we?

Speaker A: But you definitely learn from your mistakes. I think it's not my mistake. I'm going to call out someone else because I can't actually think of why you put me on the spot. I once had an old manager. We walked around site and the project manager said, guys, can I just show you something? Okay. We walked around site. He said, oh, you see? Do you see this? This shaft? And we were like, yeah. Uh, he was like, so a lift is meant to go in here. We were like, oh, where is it? I don't know. You didn't price it? I think there was three lifts on the job, and this manager, my old manager, didn't price one of them. And it was like four floors. And I was like, oh, my God. And it's one of those things that, uh, I will never forget. Always check the list now. And so I was, like, panicking all the time. Um, actually, I can tell you what one I've forgotten. It was awful. On, uh, all the dry lining, there's something called letterboxing, and it's where the services will run through the dry lining, through the partitions, obviously. I, um, completely forgot it. And that was like. I think that was like 30, 40 grand.

Speaker C: What? To cut all the dry lining.

Speaker A: Holes in the dry lining so that the services could run through it. You know what it is? I just was not thinking. You just feel you make a room. And I'm like, oh, yeah, all the services will just, you know, sit there.

Speaker C: I know, but be kind to yourself. And I say this to everyone, actually, in pre Connie, because, like, pre Connie, that's a new word. Um, because that you talked to me about, like, the tiles and you haven't. Think about the grout and think about the trims and think about the cuts and think about the labor. Think about the wastage. I'm like, oh, uh, there's so much to it suddenly. And that's just the titles.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then when you're doing a whole building, floors, potentially all on plan, it might not even be there to sit. And I'm like, yeah, how. How do you price that? Like, how I used to.

Speaker A: I used to have one manager that would say, you win jobs by forgetting things, but you also make enemies with your project managers, and you do not want to make enemies with your project managers. So 100%, it's very difficult to keep everything in mind.

Speaker C: I wonder if a project can ever be priced perfectly.

Speaker A: No, I think this is a big thing with quantity. Uh, surveyors and estimators. I think a lot of people in each job think that they could do the others. It's very difficult to, to go from estimating to qsing and vice versa because you come from such different mindsets. I will not look at the exact detail of every single thing because you can't. You're. You're running three or four jobs at a time, precon side, whereas a QS is dedicated to one job. And so the level of detail you both go into, you could never do each other. Well, I wouldn't say never, but it's very difficult to interchange because your attention detail is completely different.

Speaker C: What's the best thing you've ever been told?

Speaker A: The best thing. I was going to say it's not your fault.

Speaker C: That's a good one. I like that.

Speaker A: The best thing. Oh, it's a very sweet one. But, um, When I joined EC1, there was a big thing of you're such a breath of fresh air. And I thought that was the nicest thing. Um, and it came at such a pivotal moment in my life where I had a few previous managers tell me that a really good skill that I have, they would say a soft skill is I have good people skills. And that's something that I never thought I could have or did have. I was always thought I was really shy and awkward. So to be told I have good skills talking to people is actually very sweet. When I joined EC1 and I had that thought in my mind, I was like, oh, maybe I do have good people skills. And then to be told you're a breath of fresh air is I think was so, so nice and so comforting. After being in, in a few situations previously I wasn't so happy with.

Speaker C: I think that's the. Just to put it in a nutshell, like we were talking before about the challenges of Thai and woman of color and female. I think that's the beauty of having people from different cultures is the breath of fresh air is how we think differently. How, uh, you might just approach something completely different way around to somebody else. And neither is wrong. It's actually brilliant when you've got both.

Speaker A: Well, this is exactly what I mean about people are so good at what they do when they come from different experiences and they come from, and they've learned from their own, their own experiences. And we can all come to the table and attack it from different points of views and it's, it works so well.

Speaker C: What was one thing you would say to your like, self 10 years ago?

Speaker A: To not be afraid. People talk about the Sunday scaries. I have been in situations where I've cried on a Sunday because I was like, I don't want to go in. That's how bad it's been. And I'm sorry.

Speaker C: No, that's not great. It shouldn't be happening.

Speaker A: It's not at all. And I just thought, you know, if I could tell her it doesn't have to be this way. You can go and be so happy somewhere where you're celebrated and you're supported and loved. Don't be afraid.

Speaker C: It's such a beautiful answer. Um, I'm really glad I asked that. That's a really, really. That's a really. I think that's an encourage everybo and be encouraged by that.

Speaker A: At Clarkmill, you guys had the blind boxes and I sat there and I was like, I know I'm going to get an overthinker because that's who I am. And I said, I don't want an overthinker. I want something else. I want something else. And I got the overthinker. And I was like, the world knows. The world knows I'm an overthinker.

Speaker C: Maybe he's just there because he's come out of you and it's now in a model form but not within you anymore.

Speaker A: He sat on my little computer thinking and I look at him and I'm like, I'm not going to be you.

Speaker C: It's actually probably the best one to get. Just a reminder. No, no, that's cool. And what do you, what do you say to yourself like in 10 years time, where do you want to be

Speaker A: in 10 years time? I would love to be a pre construction director and I would love to help my team grow even more. I'm so big on development of, of someone. I have a thing where if you join my team, I will go through a plan of how we're going to get you to the next to your promotion. And I, and I do that for everyone because I know if I'm invested in, if they know they're invested in and I'm investing in them as well, then they want to do better and we can help the team grow. And so I would love to be a pre con director, uh, and just watch my team flourish. Honestly, it's such a big part of it because the jobs will come and go. The jobs are on a conveyor belt in and out, in and out, in and out. But my team are here and physical people that I. I just want a boost.

Speaker C: Such a great attitude. I love your ethic. I love. You are a breath of fresh air. You are.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker C: You really are. That's cool.

Speaker A: Can I make you blush?

Speaker C: Are you a dog or cat person?

Speaker A: I'm a dog person.

Speaker C: Are you a tea or coffee?

Speaker A: A tea. I don't like caffeine. Not that it doesn't agree with me, I just. It does nothing for me. I could take a pre workout shot and go to sleep. Um, Yeah, I don't know what's up with me. Say you're a T. I'm a T person. But I also just. It's more of a coziness, not a flavor thing. I don't really care about tea or coffee. I'm a water person. Which I think is so boring.

Speaker C: But so good for you.

Speaker A: It's so good for you.

Speaker C: Are you a night owl or early bird?

Speaker A: I'm an early bird. Gym before work.

Speaker C: Um, weight training or cardio?

Speaker A: Both. I hate cardio. Absolutely hate it. But I have to do it. Um, but I'm up at 5:30, I'm at the gym. Biceps. I'll do weights and then I'll do like half an hour of cardio afterwards. And then I'm showered and off to work.

Speaker C: Massive. Do you track your calories?

Speaker A: I track it all. My new thing is I know the world is all weird about AI right now, but with Claude. Track my calories. I track my weight. I track every single thing. My sleep. And I send it to Claude every day and it creates a whole list of what I have to do to like, as if it's a game. And I'll say, okay, this is my goal. And I'll be like, okay, well you had really good sleep last night. Maybe you can do a few more steps today and it will tell. It's like my personal trainer and nutritionist all in one.

Speaker C: Whoa. So how do you track your sleep?

Speaker A: I don't have it on today, but like a, uh, smartwatch. M. Yeah.

Speaker C: So you just put that data into.

Speaker A: I literally every morning I screenshot it all because it's all on my phone anyway. And I send it to Claude and I'm like, do your thing.

Speaker C: My next question was going to be, what's your favorite app? Don't tell me. Claude.

Speaker A: It's not. It's not. This is a really rogue one. Reddit.

Speaker C: No, you're not the only one.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love Reddit. I think it's just so interesting. It's just, like, people talking very openly and anonymously, um, about all their experiences. And it's so good to get feedback from. Yeah, I like that.

Speaker C: What's in your handbag? What's two things that are always in your handbag?

Speaker A: Oh, it's not in there right now, but it's always a tape measure. It's a disto. Oh, it's awful. We're really big nerds at EC1, but when we, uh. We're massive nerds, because if we go for a night out, uh, me and the PMs. How high do you think the ceiling is?

Speaker C: Oh, you're joking.

Speaker A: Oh, no. We're such nerds.

Speaker C: Honestly,

Speaker A: it's really fun, though.

Speaker C: I bet it is.

Speaker A: I think when you work in construction for long enough, you get to the point of knowing sort of how long things are, how big things are. And all the men that didn't have distos on site will do their big, long strides and be like, yeah, that's six meters. Because they know how long their steps are. I've got little legs, so I don't know. But I've discovered from on me, from here to my. From here is a meter. You learn the weirdest things. And that's six inches, and that's one centimeter. I don't know why I would need to know any of this.

Speaker C: I have no idea why you need to know, but that's great.

Speaker A: But it's one of those things where, um, people think you're such a weirdo, but it's just, you know. Of course, I do things you pick up.

Speaker C: Oh, dear. You do have to be weird, though, don't you?

Speaker A: You do.

Speaker C: To get through. You have to be weird to be in construction.

Speaker A: You have to be a bit strange,

Speaker C: and you have to have a sense humor 100%.

Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. I was talking to Emma, one of our designers, and she is just moved over from Australia recently, and she was telling me how different the humor here is here compared to Australia. And I think we were just saying it's because English people like to talk a lot. We love to talk, and we love to just, like, gaff a little bit. And we just have to make jokes. It's usually at our own expense. But that's the best thing, isn't it? We love to make fun of ourselves.

Speaker C: Yeah. I think quite sarcastic.

Speaker A: Yeah, super sarcastic. I actually love British humor.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: It's just. It makes. That also makes me feel like I'm at home. Thai humor is very similar. It's very um, it's sarcastic, but it's also very blunt, but in a cutesy way. So I love it. It's. It's so fun.

Speaker C: Favorite food?

Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. This is really specific. In Thailand, on the beach. Sticky rice, Kayang, which is like some chicken, and som tam, which is a spicy papaya salad. I'm done.

Speaker C: It needs to be on the beach.

Speaker A: It needs to be on the beach. Yeah.

Speaker C: I'm with you.

Speaker A: You know, like the sea salt in the air.

Speaker C: And what are you drinking with it?

Speaker A: A Thai iced tea. A Thai. Have you ever heard Thai? It's bright orange. I don't know how to explain it. It's bright orange. It's got condensed milk in it.

Speaker C: Thick.

Speaker A: No, sweet. It's sweet, yeah. Uh, it's very sweet.

Speaker C: Fruity.

Speaker A: No, it's very creamy. It's like. It is a tea, but it's very condensed milk. Creamy. I don't know how to explain it. I'll bring you one.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I've been introduced to Tim tams from Australia.

Speaker A: They're great.

Speaker C: Um, I'm all about different cultures.

Speaker A: I feel really sad, but I think they're better than penguins.

Speaker C: Oh, a million times better than penguins.

Speaker A: I feel really bad saying that because I grew up with penguins, but they're much better.

Speaker C: Penguins. That was my first thing. As soon as I ate one, I was like, nah, the penguins are out.

Speaker A: I actually can't have penguin anymore.

Speaker C: No. And have you done the Tim Tam slam?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker C: We're talking Australia here. You bite off each corner and then you suck your teeth through. It has to be a tea because it's thinner than a coffee. And you suck your tea through it like it's a straw peach corner. And then you eat the Tim Tam and it's all, like, warm and melted in the middle and just beautiful. Yeah. But that's. My Australian, um, podcast guest told me that, and we did it, and so that was very cool.

Speaker A: Yeah, I have to try that. I'll try that.

Speaker C: But I'm all about foods from different countries. It's amazing. What's your favorite color?

Speaker A: Actually? A burnt orange.

Speaker C: That's cool.

Speaker A: I was going to say, um, I didn't realize that I loved a burnt orange until I had a friend do her bridesmaids dresses in burnt orange. And I was like, they look amazing. But I would say it changes quite a lot. I feel like people always stick to their favorite color. Mine changes. I'm a seasonal person.

Speaker C: Oh.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I think it's got. And even trends.

Speaker A: Oh. Massively.

Speaker C: Stuff suddenly becomes Acceptable.

Speaker A: When all the millennials are doing all, everything in, like, the forest green. I was all for it. I'm a millennial. I was all for it. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm a millennial. Oh, that's cool. And how would, um, your colleagues describe you? Emily, the designer, how would she describe you?

Speaker A: Emma. Um, Emma, she says, I'm really bubbly, which is nice. Um, she made this one comment at Clerkenwell is, um, my hair is very red, and I have really, like, curly hair, and I'm quite short. And I would run around and be like, are you guys okay? Do you want to do this? Do you want that? And she was just like, I'm just like a little fireball. And I actually think most of my friends as well would say the same thing. I'm always just running around, trying to be there for everyone. Do you need that? Do you need this? And that's. Yeah, I mean, my m. Thing, just very punchy. Which, again, I think if you ever speak to some of my old colleagues, some of them would say, that's not who Kim is. But it's because you couldn't. I couldn't be myself in certain environments. But when you get to an environment where you can flourish and you can be bouncy, you can be flexible yourself, it makes a world of difference.

Speaker C: You know, you are, uh, able to flourish, but then the other side of it is you have flourished.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So you have developed. You have got that backbone, you have got that confidence in yourself and able to be yourself. So that's great, too.

Speaker A: Exactly that.

Speaker C: You've got to celebrate that.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly that.

Speaker C: So that's it. That's amazing. That's really good. And last question. What do you listen to when you need to, like, focus? Pressure's on.

Speaker A: So when I was. When I was at uni, I used to listen to, um, that lo fi Girl on YouTube. You know the one that she's just nodding all the time. All the time. But I actually can't anymore. I just. I can't listen to music. It's gonna be awful. I actually watch things in the background on my phone in the corner is Netflix on something like a murder mystery or whatever it is. And I'll work towards the. Like, I'll work during that. I can't actually listen to songs because I want to sing, but if I'm watching someone talking about a murder mystery, I'll be fine and I'll lock in and get my work done.

Speaker C: Amazing, amazing answer. Kim, thank you so much for coming on, sharing all that about your heritage, your personal career, the role, and then just loads of random questions that I just thought up on the spot. But, um, yeah, really insightful, really enjoyable. Thank you.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me.

Speaker C: And please like and follow the show. Help us get more great guests like Kimberly on and we will see you next time.