Why the Office isn't dead with Jacinta Ashby

It is really beneficial to have a intentional space that is there for people's well being. For me, like, I love finding my inspiration in nature, finding inspiration from being out and seeing how people function and come together. For me, like, that's what design is about. It's about people. At the end of the day, this is my opportunity to be like, nope, no pressures whatsoever. Just exist. Make space for my own peace. If you look at that, there are like millions of people within this frame right now. When you think of life like that, when you see life like that, you take a lot of pressure off of yourself and you allow yourself to just exist and appreciate the world around you. Three years after we've started this podcast, we thought it was time to make sure that those lessons and the takeaways from our amazing guests were actually actionable. Something you can really put into place. So we have launched Show Notes, a bi weekly email. Get into your inbox and that will give you the key headlines that is indexable, findable, actionable. We can really start to make a difference in creating healthy, happy workspaces. So the links below or you can head to stansons.co.uk space. Look forward to seeing you sign up. Hey, Jacinta, thank you so much for joining Space by Stansons. And we have Jacinta Ashby, senior designer from bw. What's the difference between bw, do you call it? BW Interiors? BW dmb. It used to be formerly BW Interiors, the whole company wide, and then it changed to BW Workplace Experts and then now it's Design and build. Like the part that I'm in. Yeah, cool. Amazing. So we are actually out at a coffee shop in Greenwich, Lovely Greenwich, on this fine summer's day. Fine summer's day at the weekend. Talk to me, have you been here before? Never. Do you always go to new places? I love new places. I think. Yeah. There's just so much to be inspired by and I'm such, in a way, a free spirit and just excited about, oh, where else can I find inspiration or where else can I go and explore? So that's why when we were just ideating, it was like, you know what, this would be cool. Let's just go somewhere and figure it out. Wicked. And what is your energy you pick up when you're here? Vibes. Yeah, this is positive vibes, I think as well. Like there's a lot of greenery here. It's like very like calming to the eye, like very. Just mellow. But you can see like people talking and like people Coming together, sitting at their tables and enjoying themselves. And I think that's what spaces are all about. Is that. Yeah. Is that important to you, seeing people, like, having them around? Yeah. I think we've all also had, like, the experience where you walk in somewhere, if there's no one there, you're like, this isn't a good place. Like, if there aren't other people here, why should I be here? And what do you look for in a place in terms of, like, sounds, like music, nature? Yeah. I think especially indoors, it needs to be considered in the right way. Noise or sound. I think everybody's had an experience where the acoustics haven't been necessarily great, and it can be quite overwhelming and overstimulating. Yeah. So I think finding that balance inside is really important. But then when you're outside, it's having that time and space to think. When we spend time outside, it's purposeful, it's intentional. So it's also being amongst nature and hearing the wind go through the leaves and all the rustling and the water flowing. I think having those as a contrast is really important for me. Okay, I want to pick up on that as well. But while we're here. Yes. What do you look for in a place that, when you're doing your work, when you're ideating or crashing through tasks, what sort of space? How does it change? Like, the spaces you pick? Yeah, I think it depends what it is. Like, if I am looking for inspiration and in a phase where I'm like, okay, I want to, like, be a sponge and soak things up, then places like this are perfect because. Because it's really about atmosphere and people coming together. And then you start to analyze how people differently use spaces. But more so to crack on with my task, like, focus. Spaces are so important for me. Like, and if I can't find that, then it's a case of putting my headphones in and putting on some music that is repetitive for me or, like, music that I know so my brain can just go into this really mellow state and just focus. What music do you listen to? Oh, my gosh. Everything. Jason Derulo is definitely in there. So much Jason Derulo. But, yeah, anything to, like, when I'm focusing. Like, just, like, chill house music even. Because, like, the. The melody is usually quite repetitive. But, yeah, it's a mix. And this is your, like, focus tasks, kind of getting your head down? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which you're not doing here. No. Would you go to an office? Home. Yeah. Between the office and home, if it Was a cafe not like this. I think this is too overstimulating for me just to be on my laptop in focus or I'd be having to face the wall and put my headphones in. I do find it very interesting how spaces change, how people move and think and behave. What do you think the office can learn from the cafe? What could we take from here into the office? I definitely think acoustics is a big one. You know, cafes have so much going on and I think likewise, offices have so much going on. So it's kind of picking these push and pull points in your office where you want it to be quite vibrant and community focused versus if people do want to come and work from their laptop, have a little bit of background noise, but be intentionally focused and work. What does that look like? Yeah, definitely planting the background music and different kind of hierarchies in the space as well. I think we've all seen an open plan office where it's just Cs and rows of desking and it's to the eye like it does not feel great at all. So it's like, you know, in the cafe there's always going to be like what we're sitting at the moment. There's going to be a softer seating where you can kind of just relax into the furniture. But then you've got a bar traditionally, which is about 900, 1100 millimeters high. Yeah. So that creates some different datums in the space and hierarchies. So, yeah, it's kind of creating a visual language. Yeah. Amazing. And how do you design in hierarchy like that? What do you do to create those different visuals? What some ideas? Again, it's starting from the start and understanding the space and understanding the end user and who your client is. Like what is going to be happening in that space as well as the architecture. Like right now we've got beautiful natural light above us coming in from these skylights. So it would be a shame to put say like a meeting room here and like box everything off. So especially like in a working space, are your desks around the perimeter where natural light coming is coming in? Traditionally, yes. And then you want to break that up. So you might then start to put some hierarchy in between, like the breakout tables or the touchdown zones to create those different softer elements. And then your meeting rooms might sit closer to the core or where there's less natural light. However, it depends on your client and what your end users want. Maybe somebody wants a brilliant boardroom that overlooks a wonderful view. What's the Thing you're being asked for most in an office at the moment, those touch points, those like softer, like not meeting rooms. Not meeting rooms. Yeah. Obviously a functional office needs meeting rooms and that is usually a requirement. But collaborative areas is becoming more and more of people's focus, which is fantastic. I'm starting to see offices with meeting rooms, let's say with small sofas in them instead of like a table and chairs. I think you've got it at your space. Absolutely. Wicked. Wicked genius. And without a screen. Yeah. They're simple but great for chatting. But then it's kind of private too. Yeah. Because it's a meeting room. Yeah. Well, we spend so much of our time at work and a lot of those core key conversations happen when people have their boundaries down. So when you've got a sofa or softer seating, people feel a lot more relaxed. And you know, it might be a heated argument that would occur in a meeting room, but as soon as you put yourself in a living room like scenario, you kind of just feel relaxed and less defensive. I do think that's why like the office is never going to die because it's got all of those different spaces in one place. And whilst this is lovely, it doesn't have multiple spaces. Yeah, exactly. I agree. It's what people are needing really. Yeah. And I think so as we're moving into the future, a lot more people have struggles with attention span and really finding that like focus in like the same repetitive workflow. So it's like, okay, if we need differentiation and different scenarios, what does that look like and how can people access that easily? Yeah. How often do you come to a place like this? Is it planned or just reactive? Yeah, I would say more reactive. There's a coffee shop near my house which I'll go to at least once on a weekend, if not twice because that's my time and that's where like I just enjoy, like I mentioned before, like that coffee is a hug for me. So that's a really like cup filling moment. But especially with friends, I think it's really important to break up your week. This is very relaxing. Like this is just more so a flow state for me. I don't know if he can relate but I think it's important because we're so stressed and we're so like on the go, go, go all the time. It's really important for me anyway to break up my work day like this. Yeah. And how often would you go to an office, like to actually work in a, in your office? I go about Five days a week and I love it. Oh, you're full time? Yeah, I'm about. You can't do much more. Yeah, yeah. I think in the past I've been a very big lover of working from home and the flexibility and I still am. However, I love BW and I love the team and where we've got our new office as well. It's performing exactly what we're speaking about. It's got variety, it's got collaboration zones, it's got focus zones. So I'm not feeling like, oh, I can't get my work done today because the office is tech too chaotic. I can actually go into work, say hi to everyone, but then remove myself and do what I need to do. Yeah, yeah. Are you finding that more. That's happening a lot more in terms of people getting to the office full time. It's been like a slow move over, isn't it? But yeah, I think it's been a slow burn in the best way possible because it's given people a chance to properly understand what they want and how they want their employees to show up. And as an employee, how you best focused and most productive. I'm speaking to a lot of clients now who are like, we're trying to make that shift and return back to the office. They're trying to make the shift. They're trying to make the shift back. Yeah. Rather than the working from home. Yes. Still have it. As in a policy of some shape or one another. I think flexibility in the modern day is just. Is priceless, but I think people are valuing workspaces a lot more than they used to. Yeah. No, that's interesting. What's one thing that's like not going into the office like, it used to go in sleep pods. Did that actually ever happen? Yeah. Did it actually Law offices? Yeah. Is that not a bit disgusting? It is a bit disgusting, yeah. Oh, here's our coffee. For me, I think that's encouraging a more negative working style. If you are coming to work for a 9 to 5 and you're having to put sleep pods in, then what does that say about the company's culture and expectation. Right. Of its employees? And hygiene's obviously a thing. Oh, yeah, that. That silly thing. Hygiene. No, But I would say on the contrast, what is going to continue to come into spaces is wellness rooms and wellness spaces. Yeah. They are that sort of thing. Or. Yeah. But sometimes you just need to take a step back. Right. And I think when the pressures get on you, it is really beneficial to have a intentional Space that is there for people's well being just where they can take a step back, no questions asked. You're starting to see those go in more. Yeah. And how do you design those differently to the rest of the office? Good question. I think it depends on your client especially because you wouldn't probably go put bin bags and cutesy little chairs in say like a professional lawyer's office. But Google's are a good, good example. Like they've got really fun spaces which are also quite well being focused. But I think in some spaces have been really cool because you can put headphones on and there can be like a shift in the lighting. You know, if you kind of per se, someone might be having an anxiety attack or a panic attack and being removed and being put in a space where they can just go into like a meditative state is really beneficial. Which sound and potentially visual can benefit with. However, it might just be a simple task as well as like designing the acoustics really well and bringing in some nature. I think cortisol levels go down instantly when we're out in nature around beautiful planting. Like I mentioned earlier, like the sounds. So that can be something really intentionally done in a wellbeing space just to remove any stimulation and just calm people's nervous systems. Yeah, I want to get out into nature. I think it's really important to you, isn't it? It is, yeah. We're in Greenwich so we can quite easily get to Greenwich Park. Yeah, that would be wonderful. I love Greenwich Park. Yeah, I think it's beautiful. I love any parks really. I think for me, like I love finding my inspiration in nature. Yeah. And like I said before, like finding inspiration from being out and seeing how people function and come together. For me like that's what design is about. It's about people. At the end of the day, I find it simply fascinating how physical space can totally change how we think, feel and behave. Meaning it can pause distractions, it can connect us, it can mean we do our very best work. And that's where Stanson's steps in. This show is created by Stansons who design, make and install curtains and acoustics to create the perfect environment for people to flourish and do their very best work. You've got a project on. We know how it feels. Reach out and we'll start to talk. So Jacinta, you have mentioned a couple of times that you love nature and that sort of thing. So here we are. This is Greenwich Park. I love it. Is this your like go to buddy space? Absolutely. Yeah. It's near my house, but it's just so open and so peaceful. Like, it makes my heart so happy. Yeah, yeah. Do you get inspiration here? I do, and I think it just allows me a bit of breathing time and just that breakaway that I need, especially when I want to restore my cup or just take some time to think things through. It's that weight off my shoulders in a way that allows inspiration or space for inspiration. Yeah, for me. Yeah. Like a bit of zening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And are you a sort of person that goes here on your own or with other people? Bit of both. I'm not. Nobody can come to my park. No, no, no. Yeah. Like, some friends I'll catch up with here and hopefully do some more picnics in the summer. Yeah. But, yeah, some days I just want to be by myself in my own bubble, you know? Totally. How often would you come to a space like this? Oh, I have to be in nature at least once a week, otherwise I will go insane. Wicked. Like purposeful nature. Yeah, yeah. So you actively plan in. Yeah, at least once a week to be somewhere like this. Yeah. Like, it's like I've got an addiction and if I don't have it, I start to get the shakes. I was going to say, what happens if you don't go? I can't show up as my most authentic, compassionate self if I don't spend time in nature, like, period. Nice. And what do you look for when you're here? Just no thoughts. Do you think things through actively? What are you kind of doing? I think it's a good moment to give myself grace. I think I spend a lot of time putting pressure on myself. Yeah. In, like, so many different scenarios of my life. Yeah. This is my opportunity to be like, nope, no pressures whatsoever. Just exist. Yeah. You know, make space for my own peace. And like I said before, inspiration. Right. So we got this view. Wow. It's. Yeah. This is literally Greenwich park if you've not been before. Just a massive expanse of green tree walking up through these trees. It's so beautiful, isn't it? And by the time you get to the top, you're just like. You've left all your worries, problems, stresses at the gates. Like, it's just. It clears the mind. How do you capture that and put it in an office, as in that feeling? Yeah. That's a really great question. I think for me, it's understanding why. How. How that journey we've just been on has been allowed to happen and what's allowed for that. Purposely been allowed for that. So natural, like, elements, things like greenery, natural light, soft textures, materials. Especially if you've got a vast space, how do you create enclosures and different elements of pressure and release in the actual interior architecture? Because it's that journey. And I think people really thrive when they're understood. Yeah, there is something, isn't there, that just to be said for human connection to nature, that kind of all together kind of natural materials. It's just. It's so Zen, isn't it? It's so Zen. And I think what makes my heart really happy is coming from Australia. Like, there are so many different landmarks in my eyesight right now where I'm like, pinch me moment. Like, I cannot believe I'm here. Like, you can see St. Paul's you can see the gherkin, you can see the shard, you can see the O2. Like, for me, I think it's also a really grinding moment of eyeballing these things and being able to step back. And it also reminds me, like, we are just specks of dust on a floating rock. Like, if you look at that, there are like millions of people within this frame right now. And when you think of life like that, when you see life like that, you take a lot of pressure off of yourself and you allow yourself to just exist and appreciate the world around you. Such a good. Such a good thing to say. Like, so you see this, you move. When. When did you move over again? 20, 23. What was the thing that you least expected to, like, find that you did find? Myself. Okay. You didn't expect to find yourself in the move? No, I didn't expect to find the version of me that I've grown into. And I've said this to people before, like, the person that I am now, there's no way I could be this person in Australia. Like, there's so many elements of why not? And I think I'm just continuously proud of myself. And it's really important that people are proud of themselves because likewise, I'm sure you've been places and been through stuff that you never expected to have to go through. And I think being really proud of yourself for going through that and standing here today. Yeah. Like, I always love that saying, a diamond is just a piece of charcoal under extreme pressure for a long period of time. I love that. We're diamonds, guy. We're diamonds. We're all diamonds. We're diamonds. We're all diamonds. And it just moving, whether you see it or not, as pressure was pressure. And it forms something in you that you can't be formed any other way. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's special. So. Yeah, this is like almost like a celebratory moment. It is, isn't it? Of what's been achieved. Yeah. Like, I did that. You know me, I'm such a big believer of people's well, being and being your own main character and giving yourself appreciation for everything you've gone through. And I think this just sums it up. Like, yeah, it's just beautiful. And I think the more you see life like that, being a beautiful thing and being a beautiful experience rather than a destination, like, I think that comes with a lot of peace. And likewise, when I'm designing workplaces or I'm in general designing places for people to exist. Anywhere. Yeah, anywhere. Yeah. The most important thing for me as a designer is that people feel something in that space. That people feel that they can be themselves, be authentic, have conversations come together. It might be a sense of place, it might be some smell that brings them back to another point in time. Yeah. But what's important is that people feel. And I think it's about memories and experiences rather than things necessarily. Yeah. Like an Instagram moment's great. Like, you know, a logo is great. But I think if people can walk away from work each day or once a week at least, and be like, that thing that happened or that thing that someone said to me in that room or like the sofa at bw, like, those standout memories are going to last with people forever. And I think that's a really beautiful takeaway from environments we design. Yeah. Can you design in or how do you design in movement? So we just moved and I think that's really healthy. Like, obviously physically healthy, but mentally healthy. So how can we design in more movement without just people trekking across the office? We're going for a run. I think, like I said earlier, like, it's being intentional about how you design the space. And I think we live in a world as well where convenience, like, it's just around us. Deliveroo, Uber Eats, not sponsored, but, you know, like, everything is at the touch of our fingertips. So I think really making people, not forcing them, encouraging people to get out of their desk and want to go to the breakout or want to go to the meeting room on the other side of the office because it has a really beautiful furniture arrangement and beautiful paneling on the walls and acoustics are really designed well. Like, I think encouragement's a good word. Like encourage people to want to leave their desk and not feel constrained. No, I Do agree. And I also think like how the space, how easy it is to navigate. Not necessarily just that it's nice, but like maybe the signage or the lighting or just even just the flow. Yeah. Can maybe pick people up and lead people there which might not have otherwise found themselves there. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I wrote an article for BW recently about designing workspaces and the, the experience for employees. And I related it to almost a hotel. You know, everyone can design, right. At the end of the day we can all pick something nice, colors or relate a brand back to materials or whatever, but it's that experience. And what sets a Marriott apart from a Hyatt is the user journey. It's about who do they see when they first get to the hotel, how are they greeted, what does it smell like as they're going through the corridors, what is that experience? What are the touch points, what does their key look like? So I think when we can embed those elements into workplace design, how people do experience and use the space, like again, I think that's encouraging people to want to show up every day and almost find something special in that whole like experience that you're saying. Do you get a lot of outdoor spaces that you get to design? I used to, I would say not so much in workplace terraces. Yes. But my previous background was collaborating with landscape architects as well. And a lot of the work that I was doing was bringing the outside in, which I'm so passionate about. Like that's why we're in a park. Yeah, yeah. Bringing that outside is so important for people's health and wellbeing. And I think where I'm not, I guess having opportunity to design outside spaces, I'm thinking, okay, how can I bring that outside in? Regardless of workplace or restaurant? Yeah. Whatever it is, people talk about biophilia and they quite quickly think plants and then kind of stop thinking. So I think it's so much deeper than that. Like biophilia and it's whole. What are other things that you would encourage people to consider other than just plants? Some of the things I've mentioned already I would say sounds natural light, the fluidity of movement. There's no white walls in nature. Like apart from the architecture, there are no white walls. So it's bringing in these textures and these tactility of the outdoors and bringing that in. And that's what biophilic design is about. It's about wellness and well being and nature and it's that symbiosis of the two. Like you've got a real deep love of nature. Do you find that it's anything to do with your childhood and how you've been, like, raised? Absolutely, yeah. My Omega and Opa, that's grandparents in German and Hungarian, they live in the mountains in a beautiful place called Pakenham Upper. And, like, that is where I spent a lot of my childhood and learning about fruits and different flowers, different plants, and playing under the oak tree, like, exploring, like, the berries and the orchard that they had set up. So I think my sense of belonging, my sense of place in this world is without a doubt, in nature. That. Yeah, it's embedded in me almost. Yeah. Right from childhood. Yeah. And that's Australia. Yeah. And just purely due to the climate, I'm guessing it's more outside living. Yeah, I would say so. I mean, if you compare it to Dubai, a lot of people are inside living. Right. Like, and interiors are just off the charts there because that's where a lot of people spend their time. True. Whereas in Australia, it is more accessible to be outside. And. Yeah, I guess we're quite lucky or fortunate that we can pick and choose because we've got air conditioning and the right thermal climates indoors, but outdoors, like, you just. You want to be outdoors, you want to explore. And the animals kind of have their own identity in Australia. But it's fascinating. Like, you want to go out there and see a snake and be like, whoa, what's that? The whole kind of, like, adventure, like, kind of adrenaline is the word I'm looking for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's true. And so coming over to uk, was that a struggle because of the climate being different? No, because I think it's quite similar. I think just when you grow up in a place, you forget about what is around you. Like Greenwich Park. This right here, this is one of many parks in London. Right. And I think you just have to be intentional about spending your time in nature, because London has some of the most incredible green spaces. Like, people are just so quick to judge on the weather and based their soul, identity or, you know, emotion or how they're feeling one day because the weather was gray. Yeah. And also just getting. Would you still go out in the bad weather? Yeah, yeah. I met you this morning and it was pouring with rain. And here we are. The universe has opened up for us. Yeah, yeah. And we wouldn't have had this experience if we had just gone, oh, we're not meeting up today. Yeah. Because the weather's rubbish. The weather is rubbish. Let's do it again another day. Don't wait. Like, in life, don't wait for anything. Just get out. Just get out. Don't rely on others. Like, just have that internal ambition to be like, you know what? I'm going to show up for me today. And the worst thing that's happened is you'll get wet, but big deal. Bring an umbrella. Always come for bed. Yeah, wicked. Oh, thanks so much, Jacinta. It's been really, really great episode to be. Start off surrounded by people and then finish off surrounded by trees. I mean, what more what else could you ask for in life? And coffee. And coffee. And coffee. I think it's been the trifecta. And yeah, it's been such a pleasure in my space and outlook on life with you and all you guys watching and listening and. Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. It's been wonderful. You're very welcome. And obviously, guys tuning in. Thanks very much. We're always so grateful to our guests. Amazing insights. And also all of our supporters and subscribers and you know who you are, always cheering on and sending in the dm. So thank you. Do the whole follow thing if you're not and the rating thing, because the algorithm likes that. And with that, we will cut off. So thank you, Jacinda. Thank you so much, Guy. Thank you, guys. I think for me, it's understanding why how that journey we've just been on has been allowed to happen and what's purposely been allowed for that. So greenery, natural light, soft textures, materials. Especially if you've got a vast space, how do you create enclosures and different elements of pressure and release in the actual interior architecture? Because it's that journey. And I think people really thrive when they're understood. And I think what makes my heart really happy is coming from Australia. There are so many different landmarks in my eyesight right now where I'm like, pinch me moment. Like, I cannot believe I'm here. Like, you can see St. Paul's you can see the Gherkin, you can see the Shard, you can see the O2. Like, for me, I think it's also a really grounding moment. It also reminds me, like, we are just specks of dust on a floating rock. If you look at that, there are like millions of people within this frame right now. When you think of life like that, when you see life like that, you take a lot of pressure off of yourself and you allow yourself to just exist and appreciate the world around you. The more you see life like that being a beautiful thing and being a beautiful experience rather than a destination. Like, I think that comes with a lot of peace. And likewise, when I'm designing workplaces or I'm in general designing places for people to exist. Anywhere. Yeah, anywhere. Yeah. The most important thing for me as a designer is that people feel something in that space. Yeah. That people feel that they can be themselves, be authentic, have conversations come together. It might be a sense of place, it might be smell that brings them back to another point in time. But what's important is that people feel. It is really beneficial to have a intentional space that is there for people's well being. For me, like, I love finding my inspiration in nature, finding inspiration from being out and seeing how people function and come together. For me, like, that's what design is about. It's about people at the end of the day, day, this is my opportunity to be like, nope, no pressures whatsoever. Just exist, make space for my own peace. If you look at that, there are like millions of people within this frame right now. When you think of life like that, when you see life like that, you take a lot of pressure off of yourself and you allow yourself to just exist and appreciate the world around you.