Calling Your Team a "Family" is Hurting Your Mission

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to another episode of the Executive Navigator. And today Rich and I are going to talk about this theme, this idea that if you describe your ministry or, and your team as a family, it might be hurting the pursuit of your mission. Describing your organization and, or your team culture as a family might actually be hurting your mission. So, Rich, this came up for me. It comes up every now and then. It came up. I was at a client site last week and I was working with a team. We help ministries build the leaders they need for the future. And that often involves joining them on their team off sites and facilitating conversations and helping them pick clarity and get aligned around that clarity, uh, whether it's about culture or actual, you know, tasks that they're trying to complete. And we were out of this discussion and uh, we just kind of went around the room and asked everybody kind of what they were thinking about the discussion. One of the, one of the people there said, it finally feels like we're becoming a family. And I got a sinking feeling, uh, I got a sinking feeling when this person said that, because I was thinking for a whole host of reasons. Um, so when I pitched this topic, you jumped on it. And I'm guessing that there's some backstory for you around this idea of calling your ministry team a family.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, we've both heard it. It's clear and it's tough because there's so much that's positive about it. Right. I mean, who doesn't want to be part of a family? Uh, you know, of course every, every family seems normal to get to know them. Uh, you know, and, and okay, so we work with all these Christian organizations. They're faith driven nonprofits. They're um, at times churches. They're, they're businesses that, that have a mission that, you know, uh, has an eternal bottom line. And, and so it's, it's sort of natural to let your, your language that you use at church sort of bleed over who doesn't want to feel close to their co workers, who doesn't want to feel a sense of meaning, ah, at the workplace. In fact, you know, the, the research indicates that that's the, the one advantage that faith based nonprofits have is that they offer a sense of purpose and a sense of meaning. It's certainly not salaries. We know, we know that, uh, you know, people take that eye watering pay cut often when they come to work for a Christian nonprofit. So, so it almost seems like, well, we don't. What is it the apostle said silver and gold have a none. So what I have. I give unto thee, like we say, ah, uh, brother, come be part of my family. You know, and it's sort of sloppy agape from.

Speaker A: From there on out, man, you throw in King James and, you know, in Southern swapia, gapi. In one sentence, I was.

Speaker B: What can I say? What can I say?

Speaker A: Well, I mean, we are all a part of the family. I think that's part of it. Could be where it comes from. Although I. I mean, I know you have too. Like, sometimes business owners and entrepreneurs use the term family about their company or their organization. So it's not just a. A biblical thing. But what, what makes you cringe about that language?

Speaker B: Well, as I, you know, as I think about it, I think if you're calling me by if we're a family and you're in charge, that makes you the dad or the mom, as in my case, my mother and my wife. Run, run the show. Is this a. Is this a confessional? Chip is. I'm sorry, I, uh, don't know.

Speaker A: Uh, but it's all editable, so just remember, you can just, you know, it

Speaker B: puts you into this family space, and I'm just ready to get manipulated. Right. Like, I mean, I don't know about you, but I love my family. And family brings with it, you know, unquestioned loyalty. Uh, you know, if. If my brother gets on my nerves, God bless him. Doug, if you're listening, you know, then, hey, no big surprise. But I'm not going to fire him. Right. Like, it comes with it, this, this sense of loyalty that you kind of put up with craziness. That one crazy uncle at Thanksgiving, you know, you put up with less than. Than perfect performance. Right.

Speaker A: You know, Emily always brings those weird green beans every year.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, feed them to the dog under the table kind of thing.

Speaker B: Right, exactly. And so, you know, I mean, I think. I think that, uh, at the bottom of it, you know, uh, if we were going theological on it, work is a set of contractual obligations where you are describing exactly where the boundaries lie in that loyalty. I don't owe blind loyalty to an employer, nor do they own blind loyalty to me. And Virginia, where I live is, ah, at will employment state, and many are. And that recognizes the fact that that relationship, as chummy as it can be, can come. Can come to a, you know, screeching halt when certain conditions are met. That's why you have a contract. So I think it takes you out of contractual language and puts you in covenantal language, because covenantal language, you know, between a husband and Wife or between, uh, you know, parents and children says, I am pledging myself to you and it really doesn't depend on you. Yes, there are a few very small exceptions that might abrogate a covenant, but in a covenant, it's about loyalty for the long haul. And that's just, that's just different from work.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, yeah, we, I think what we're part of. One of the messages, I think work were endeavoring to share through this, this ongoing conversation is that when you're leaving a ministry, it is, it is, it fits more neatly into the category of work. And you know, you have an outcome that your ministry is fitted to produce and, and that may be covenantal for you and God. Between you and God. That's good. It should be. But, um, you have an obligation actually as part of that calling as a leader of a ministry organization to put the best people in the right roles, ah, for the given season that you're in as a ministry. And when we use familial language, it kind of blurs those lines about what is our main responsibility. You use the term loyalty. Um, and I think that's like you start being more loyal to the individuals and keeping and being together by almost being together. Being together eclipses the mission that we're called. Called to pursue. And um, there's a lot of things that this is not. And we can, we'll get into that, I'm sure, as we continue to talk about it. But like, it's just the wrong lens to look at this through. I, I would. You know, it's hard, it's hard to parse all this out because even in a local church congregation, I think, um, and I served as a pastor at one season in my life when somebody left my church to go to another church, they weren't leaving the family of God. You know, they were, they were transitioning themselves. You know, in almost all cases, uh, they, they did it on their own. They decided they would rather go, uh, you know, interface with the family of God and a different expression like that was there. That's the way we do it. There's things about it that are probably not good because we're very consumer oriented in the United States. But the bottom line is even as just a congregate in a church, um, that's not your family forever necessarily. It's an expression of it. And I think parsing that difference is really, really important.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I was thinking about it and I'm a word guy, so I, uh, I started thinking about, well, okay, Jesus clearly says, you know, my brothers and, and sisters are the ones who do my will. Right. So he, he helps us with this language of the family of God. We've been adopted as children of God. We can sort of blame him for giving us this set of language of a heavenly family. But then does he use that when he's talking about employment? And, and, and instead he uses a word from which we get our word economy. Right? An oikinamos, a, a manager, a steward. Right. And so he talks about this work word and it was a fascinating role. I mean it could be, uh, a slave or freed person on an estate. And often the ownership was, you know, it was venture capital group that own some, some working vineyard or, you know, they raise grapes or olives or whatever. And so they had to have the on site manager there to run the books, to make sure that supply was running, to make sure that the man, you know, that the employees were kept in line. And that's the oikinamos, that's the manager. And he uses that word when he talks about the talents and the gifts that we've been having in the parable of the talents uses that word to talk about, um, you know, the, what we call the unjust steward, you know, the manager who is doing that. And then it's even the word that's used for church leadership in the book of Titus, that when it's giving the quality characteristics of their character, right. That he talks about the manager, the overseer, the person who's managing the church. Now he sets up an analogy. They should be able to manage the church like they manage their household. But it's an analogy. It's not an exact match. So if Jesus can use corporate language to talk about us and our mission, I kind of think we could too.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was really good. I want to throw like I had five, but I knew, and some of the things that we talked about before we started, I have a six now I have six reasons why this is problematic.

Speaker B: Come on, lay it on me.

Speaker A: You can, you can stop me wherever you want. Um, and we'll, we'll talk more about them. But I think, I think number one is you create expectations you cannot meet. Um, and, and you, you know, you can't fire your sister, I mean from being your sister, like she's always going to be your sister. Um, and um, um, so when you hire somebody and you incorporate them into a family, uh, you're, you, you're, you're high risk of creating expectations, um, that you can't actually live up to as the boss. Like, because you're gonna have to hold them performance accountable for the performance and their conduct. And um, you know, I, I learned this the hard way. And I used to have this speech that I would give people, uh, from my church that wanted to work on our staff and I would tell them like, we would post a position and they would come in and I would say, I want you to, I want you to take at least 24 hours to think and pray about whether you really even want to keep your, your resume in the pile. Because immediately you're putting on to the use the term okonomia that the household manager. You're actually going to be changing my role in your life and I'm going to evaluate your resume as a boss. I didn't say like boss. I didn't said as boss, but I

Speaker B: think of you like a boss, Jeff. That's just the way you roll.

Speaker A: You roll like a boss. You roll like a boss. Um, and right away that's going to change our relationship. It's going to add a different category to, to our interaction that we haven't had before because I was your pastor and I care for you and your family and I teach on Sunday to do that. So, so, and I would tell them, you really need to think about whether to do that. And it just assuming that all goes swimmingly well. And I hire, we hire you. Uh, there could, I'm going to give you performance reviews every year and there could come a point when we decide this isn't going to work out. So I, I tried to nip a lot of that in the bud. I found it was really hard to do. I found it was actually easier just to hire as a pastor. It was easier to hire people from outside our church. Uh, to work in the office is much better. It's much more professional than hiring people inside. But the bottom line is this idea that when you use the term family, you create expectations. Your family love too.

Speaker B: No, I, I, I agree completely. I, I've been thinking of some examples and if I could be so bold, I think that the younger workers that I, that I deal with get this a little bit better than, than the older. And, and so when I came up, I sort of, you know, the message to me was suck it up for Jesus. If I could say it that way, that is to say, you kind of do whatever it takes, you know, if you have to go extra above, you know, go the extra mile, brother. You know, usually, you know, somebody's telling me that I needed to do More. And you know, my experience in ministry is that there's no such thing as part time ministry, just part time pay. And uh, you know, they were usually asking you something to do something that was beyond the bounds. And so they're sort of drawing on this loyalty to the mission. And you know, I heard it just, just uh, within the last week where somebody was saying, well, we don't really pay our people up to market because that they're not really in it for the money. And so they really care about the mission. To which I replied, well, if you really cared about the mission, you would pay people to make results that advance the mission all the more. Right. And so I see that people expect people to suffer because they're in the family.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Because these are just tough times. You know, dad lost his job, we're going to have to suffer together. And that's the message I'm getting. And look, all you have to do is read a, uh, paper about a church or organization that's abusing its people. We as Christians should be the last to abuse our people. We should prioritize and value our people because they're made in the image of God and are working for eternal, eternal fruit. So all the more.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm just going to say it and move on to number three. But number two, I was just thinking it's like when we use familial language, it becomes an excuse for tolerating bad behavior. And I was thinking like I have to, you're, you work for me. But you know, we're all family, so I tolerate your bad behavior because I can't kick you out. Family and all that loyalty thing that we were talking about earlier, but the example you just, you just shared, it actually goes the other way around too. I tolerate my own bad behavior of not paying you well, um, because you know, well, we're all a family and we all kind of have to grind it out, so suffer together. A third, a third, I said that's toleration. Like so. One is that we create expectations we can't eat. Another is we tolerate things we shouldn't of ourselves and other people on our team. The third idea I think is that in a family, uh, sometimes I, I think we, we tell people personal things that we actually really shouldn't, you know. And um, or, and I found this like, as relationships, best relationships start as a professional relationship. Whether it's been in the work we do at VOCA and our team or uh, the church. But whether it start as a personal relations, a professional relationship, and then sometimes they become friends too. Like it's professional first. It's always worked better for me. But I, but I find in general, sometimes as you start to get more comfortable or you start thinking in terms of like we're a family, people start sharing personal things about their lives. And um, one of the challenges of that when you're the leader is it's really hard not to consider some of those things that they tell you as you assess them and their potential. And if they knew that you were assessing their potential when they were going to tell you about, you know, their emotional problems or their, their difficulties in their marriage or whatever it is, you know, or oh no, like they have a sick relative they're going to have to take care of and you're thinking, I don't know about their capacity. Well, when you're the leader you do think about that all the time. Right? You think about how can I put the best team on the field so we can accomplish the mission. And it's, I don't know, I just think that it becomes a sort of an open door for oversharing.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I, I, I, I think you're right. It's about family. Language blurs boundaries, I think is the bottom line. It, it, it blurs boundaries. And, and you, you, you can tend to overshare, uh, or, or over expect. Right. And, and so I, I think it's problematic.

Speaker A: And another thing I know, I think we're on four now. Um, you, you, I'm not sure actually. It might just been in the, your notes, but for this, that you share with me in advance. But I think it, now you started to say at the beginning it's like families are often dysfunctional. Right. In fact maybe every family is somewhat dysfunctional. Um, so it's actually not even a great, it's not like if we're a family and I'm the dad, well then that's, then I'm bringing my dad dysfunctions to this ministry that I'm supposed to lead and people are giving, providing us funding to produce a result. And you know, ah, like, like we're weighing, we're way drifting really far away is what we're really supposed to be about. And um, it, it's, it's so, it's really interesting how, how distracting it can be. It's, it's well intended, I'm sure, you know, like, it's well intended that people use it, but it's just, it's not helpful. Um, is there anything else you can think of that's Just like, as a reason why this is not a good idea.

Speaker B: Yeah. For me, the root of it is covenant versus, uh, contract. Maybe that's because I'm a reformed guy. Right. Like, I tend to think in terms of covenant. And, um, you know, I, once upon a time was a pastor. And so people come in for marriage counseling and we talk at the beginning about contractual mindset versus covenant mindset. And a contract says, if you do this, then I'm going to do this. You know, if you don't do this, then I'm, I, I'm going to, I'm going to stop having a relationship with you. And that's what work is. We're, we, we're coming together for a period of time and sometimes for decades. Right. Some. I, I love seeing resumes. I see hundreds of resumes and seeing someone who's been with an organization for 10, 20, you know, we're going to be celebrating someone here, uh, in an organization who's been for 40 years with this, with the same organization. And. Wonderful. But there are people who can't see the organization apart from this person. They're saying, oh, you've been so faithful. Just stay in, Stay in. Well, this person has a life. They're not a sister, uh, of the people on staff. They're a coworker and they have their own life. They need to retire. Their husband's retiring, their, you know, they have grandkids, they have a new puppy. You know, these are the things that they should be free to pursue should God lead them to that place, not be guilted into another couple of years because somebody called her sister.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know what I mean? It's just, it's not, I don't think that it's respectful. I think that it's not an adult type relationship where we ask people to search their hearts and follow God's will for their life. And then we work together with your mission as a community or. You know, I think every church even is, is a community and a corporation and a cause. I think it's all those things. You remember, Jim Detmer used to say that back in the day.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That's one of the things that, that makes it confusing. But I, I don't think it's helpful.

Speaker A: I'm thinking about how do we implement change and what's it look like if you've been using family language and then you decide this isn't healthy and because often we don't do that very well. So I think the first thing that we have to have clarity in our in our own minds as leaders and that have to articulate that clarity. Right? Like it's, um. And some of us need to process it out loud. Um, probably don't. If you've used familial language about your team, probably don't process it out loud with them. As you're thinking about, um, you know, uh, given all the baggage many of us have with broken homes and everything. I'm serious. Like, you need to, you need to carefully, um, wind this back in. And the first thing I would, I would urge you to do is to think of it as we're a, We're a community on a mission versus a family. And as a community on a mission, as a Jesus defined community, we love each other, we respect each other, we speak truth to each other. Um, we respect each other's dignity and agency. And like all those things, like, it's, it's not. Saying we're not a family is not. It's not an excuse to be abusive or harshly, uh, transactional in the way you treat the people that work in your organization at all. You know, we still treat them with Christian dignity and respect. I think that's important. Um, but you, you have to, you have to first, in your own mind, get that clarity. Um, and I, and I wish I had a prison, a safe space organization example. But Reed Hastings is the co. CEO of Netflix, and he often says we are not family. Um, and that's, you know, that's just a company that's in the world that make money. But, um, um, but the bottom line is you have to say it. And after you've kind of worked through it and talked about it and in safe. Safer. Excuse me. And safer. And wider circles started to socialize. Hey, I've been using familial language, but it's really not. I don't think it's helpful anymore. Um, I think there's a place to just say I was wrong. And, uh, it's not that I don't care about each of you, but this is really not helpful for what we're specifically tasked to do. And so there's a clarity of thinking and a dialing it back that I think ah, is probably called for if we've been using that.

Speaker B: I agree with that. And you know, you can get carried away, um, on any new kick. I always used to cringe when my CEO would come in. You just read a new book and Suddenly we're pursuing 100 miles an hour. A new set of ideas that were totally opposite from the ones we had. The day before. We want people to feel connected. There are better ways of doing that than, than using familiar familial terms. We want them to feel deeply honored. We want them to feel respected and like they're making a difference. Right? Um, and, you know, we are all in a family. Um, but I've been thinking freshly about God placing Adam in the garden and this, you know, this perfect divine placement, you know, and I believe God has these places for us. What my whole profession is about is helping people to find their divine placement.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: And, and for Adam, it happened to be a garden and it was perfectly designed to be fruitful. And I do believe God places people in, uh, workplaces and, and they're most satisfied when God is most glorified.

Speaker A: They're.

Speaker B: Their gifts are being used and they're in the right spot. And so Adam was both a son of God, he was a family member, but God in the garden to work. That's why he was there. It's in Genesis, chapter two. He was there to work. And so it's almost like, well, we are family members, and we are family members in the body of Christ, but we're put in a place to work. And I hear that from old, from older leaders. I want to hire these people. Are they here to work? I mean, they, they, you know, they always want all these breaks. They want all this work, life balance. They don't want to come to the office. Aren't they here to work? You know, at some level, we have even more reason to get stuff done for kingdom purposes in these organizations than, than, you know, just, just making a profit. So we, we gotta, we gotta work. And that's different than being in family, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's really good. Um, you know, so I just want to make really clear first, we're not s. Adjusting. Like, you just walk into the office tomorrow and say, oh, we're not a family anymore. If you've been using that language, I think that you, you socialize it with people who are safe and trust like that. You really trust that, you know, that can handle, like, working through something that's complex like that. And you, you practice, you think about messaging, you do it carefully. Um, so that's part of it. And eventually you got to tell everybody. And if it's a small team, you're saying, I was using this language, it's because I care about everybody and I care about what we do, but I don't think it's helpful. I'm not going to use it anymore. And There needs to be a public statement that everybody hears. So it's kind of build to that. Um, the other thing I think is that there's probably some people on your team, uh, who this will impact more than others. And there's probably some that you can feel like, oh my gosh, we've totally fallen into like, you know, like family dynamics. Like, it feels like family dynamics. Like, this is my sister I never got along with, or, you know, this is my work style. Somewhere in a bad marriage, you know, whatever it is, you know, like, we just sort of get into that. Whenever, whenever executives make sort of sweeping statements, there's usually one or two people that are actually thinking of when I do it. And I'm, um, suggesting a third step beyond the initial, like socialization, careful message, crafting the public statement. I think there's probably some one on ones you need to have after all that as a CEO and you just need to sit some people down to, hey, you know, I'm ready to change the way we describe our culture. And um, because I think it's important about expectations. How's that landing on you?

Speaker B: You.

Speaker A: And you just do some listening with some of those folks that you, you think might be mostly affected, or some of those folks where you feel like it's kind of gotten sideways and um, you know, and, and you don't sit them down and say, hey, we're no longer a family, so, you know, your performance isn't up to speed. You know, like, you don't do that clean breath, like, you let it play out over time. You do this in steps. So let you let your team digest the change. And I think that's, that's part of honoring their dignity and, and, and the fact that you still are brothers and sisters, even though you're not brothers and sisters because you work at this organization. Yeah. And something you said there sparked a second kind of practice area that relates to this to me, and that's that, first of all, there's this. There's always a concept. The concept is just recognizing that, uh, like you, like God has placed you in this place to work for now. Like, there's that important preposition, prepositional phrase at the end of it. For now, it's nothing's permanent, um, on this side. And so even your role, if you're the CEO, that's not forever. Like, it's just because you're not forever on this planet. Like that. That's just a fundamental reality, I think that helps us come to terms with some of this. And, um, you know, if you sold people on this family loyalty kind of idea like that this is like almost forever, like a forever position kind of thing. Um, that's ah, an important, you know, change your language. That's a, that's a way to sort of dial that back. I think a second, second thing is to also start to be, um, be really wise about your own future and open handed about your own future and have a really good succession plan. You know, if something happens, it's going to happen to you that you weren't planning on and expecting, you know, some kind of emergency thing. Uh, but also be thinking about how you're going to hand the baton over. Um, and I, you know, some leaders are very forward thinking about this and are, you know, about this and some, it's like, you know, they don't have that if I get hit by a bus plan and they don't have any plan and they don't have a long term plan. And that's sort of, that's sort of saying, you know, that for me as the senior leader this is a permanent thing, but it's actually not. And that's, that's where that you know, in, in a business setting, um, or I mean it's, this happens to be kind of the end that we're getting close to the end of the NFL season when we're recording this, the coaches are being fired. They're being, they're being told that there isn't permanent and we're no longer, you're no longer. Don't say in this family use that language. But you know what I'm saying. It's just like if you model this as a leader, that you're open handed about your role, that you're not, you're not, you're not counting on sort of this unquestioned permanent loyalty, then I think that's, that's, that makes a uh, a more authentic case as you start to dial back some of these family expectations that you might have created way.

Speaker B: No, I, I think that's, I think that's well said. You know, uh, maybe, maybe in conclusion, I would say family language speaks to identity. Right? And, and I, I don't know about you, but I already have enough problem, you know, taking my identity from my work. Right? Like I, I am what I do, you know. And so when, when somebody says your role here is as a brother, as a son, as a, you know, a family member, ah, that hits something really deep. It's my identity. But your productivity is not your identity. We're born to flourish. And I think that is a positive aspect of work culture. And we bring gifts and talents and experiences and competencies to the roles that we're in. But that's not our identity. Right. I mean, even Adam got canned, right? Like, he had. He got shown the door, and, and he didn't stop being a son because he got shown the door. God still had a plan for him, and he still, you know, he was very productive after he got canned from his. His dream job. And. And so that's the hard thing is that we're. We're not required, you know, giving people their identity. They have to give. Get their identity from the Lord and from the. The, you know, the family of God, not. Not their workplace.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. Um, I had one more, like, tip, I think, and it's so something that fits into the category of, um, some of this is deeply spiritual and how you look at yourself and the people that you work with and, and not under or over sort of overselling who they are, who you are. Like, we are God's children, and we work together, but working together is not the same as being part of the family of God. So, like, they're. They're bumping into each other in a Christian organization, but they're not the same thing.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's good. Well, I, I think principles are always important and, and stressing principles like respect and, and making statements that, you know, as a Christian organization, we're the last who want to abuse or take advantage of our employees. Right. Like, we honor you, we respect you, and, you know, the principle of humility. I think anytime as leaders, if we really believe in servant leadership, you can first say to that trusted colleague and then to a leadership team and then to the whole team, which. That cascading communication that you're talking about is. I was thinking about this, and I may be in error on something. Give me your feedback on this. And you're giving imessages. Right. You're saying, I may have been looking at this wrong. What do you think? Right. And so you're modeling openness, you're modeling humility. And I think that accomplishes more than just some fiat of saying, all right, from here on out, you know, we do. We do it this way because I said so.

Speaker A: That, that.

Speaker B: That's the way it worked in my family growing up.

Speaker A: I don't. I don't know about you, but there you go again. Some of the unhelpful, unhelpful things about this part of the, uh. Well, Rich, you know, and the work that you and I do with, with different Christian ministries and their leaders, we can help them reset some of these cultural expectations so that they can keep the main thing. The main thing, and treat each other well along the way. And so I'm sure that when you guys at Mission Leadership are doing executive searches, when there's a vacancy, that's always a chance, uh, to shift a culture. It's not just about skill sets, about culture. And I know we have a lot of those conversations with our clients who are saying we want to be more effective at what we're doing. And we help them build the leaders, not just individually, but as they interact together, help them build the leaders they need for more missional impact. Yeah.

Speaker B: And if I could just put in a plug, uh, for boards, healthy boards can help CEOs do this probably better than anyone else. Boards that come alongside CEOs, perhaps that have more, uh, corporate experience than a nonprofit CEO can talk about ways that they handle personnel, um, and give ideas and give suggestions to that CEO. And I have watched organizations have a renewal in the organization and actually started in the board where they recruited intentionally healthier and more experienced board members. And I do this for free as my volunteer experience in the board. I'm on where you're looking for people whose experience, experience can help a CEO to, uh, set these kinds of expectations and corporate culture in corporate practice. And it's just awesome to listen to the sharing of experience and ideas. And so that can be one place where you're learning and you're growing and you're experimenting and then you can put things into action in the organization. Just a thought.

Speaker A: That's really good. I, uh, mean, a healthy board is going to be. And wise. And this is, this is. These are, these are pretty tips for those of you board members out there. But this is a great question to ask your executive director or CEO. How often do you refer to this organization as a family and how. And if they say somewhat frequently, then it's like, how's that working for you? You know, don't, don't just leave it. Dig into. Because words matter and expectations matter and part of the board's role. Imagine that senior leaders helping them, um, get everybody pulling in the same direction and not getting expectations he, he or she can't deliver on.

Speaker B: Um, that's excellent, Rick.

Speaker A: Always good to talk to you. So much to explore and learn as we all navigate, uh, the leaders of, uh, Christian Ministries and, um, you guys, mission leadership, us, um, our team here at voca, we're honored and excited to walk alongside so many of you out there. So until next time.

Speaker B: Well, thanks, brother. I appreciate it.