How to Break Free from Relying on Referrals to Get Consulting or Coaching Clients with Cori Crawford Van Oss (Ep172)

Speaker A: So are, uh, you a consultant or coach? And you are growing your business, and so far it's been great because you've gotten a ton of referrals. But you're kind of wondering, I don't know if this is going to be what I can do over the long term. Well, find out what to do about that on today's episode of the Consulting Matters podcast. And welcome to the Consulting Matters podcast. This is the show for purpose driven consultants and coaches. Coaches who are ready to own the power of what they do, position themselves for greater impact and income. I'm your host, Betsy Jordan, and today I'm super excited to bring on the show my client and very good friend, Corey Crawford Von Oss. And Corey and I knew each other, like, decades ago, and we reconnected when I went to or actually, I was presenting at an ICF event. I thought she was coming because I had a stellar topic. Um, but she was coming to reconnect with me, which is awesome. Um, and we've been working together. Things can be true. Well, we have been working together on elevating and clarifying her unique brand positioning and messaging. And believe me, Corey has a very unique brand and positioning compared to other consultants and coaches. And so we've been working on it for the last few months. And so she's finally got her website relaunched, and I wanted to bring her on the show to talk about her journey of not just, like, getting to initial clarity, but refining it, but doing it in such a way with an eye towards how do I grow my business and attract clients without relying on the referrals all the time. So, without further ado, welcome to the show, Corey. Super excited to have you here. Thank you, gc. Thank you.

Speaker B: You know, I know that you probably have some wonderful plans, but I want to, um, comment on something, um, because a couple months ago, you were having your mentors on your podcast. Do you remember that? And I just want your viewers to know that when I met you, Betsy, it was around 2008 or so, and I had had some upheaval in life that was not really as I had wished. I had been living in Europe. I loved the work I had to do there, but there was some challenges, and I ended up coming home, and my dad was in a health thing. But in that time frame, you walked me through probably your initial work of how do you connect your history, a person's history, with what we're made to do in this world? And, um, you definitely set me on a trajectory where I just want you to know I do that with people on a regular basis. You know, it was kind of my first, first time to be with a coach or therapist or whatever you want to call it. You were coaching me at that point. But, you know, many types of professions need to have this role where we say, okay, who are you? And what does that say about what you're made to do on this earth? And a lot of my work with people is helping them steward the story that is written in their life. But really, you introduced me to that. And, um, anyway, just been a wonderful journey to say, okay, we are made, we are wired together. We don't make ourselves, but we're wired together. And there are specific times and needs in the world that we are here to be a solution for the world. And anyway, hats off to you, Betsy, and thank you for doing that with me.

Speaker A: Thank you for the reminder that you were probably my very first brand messaging and positioning client back in the day, before I even had words for it. And what I think is really interesting is I love that work that we did. Like, when we started doing the work now, I went back and got into all my files, I'm like, that was some pretty good work, but I love that work. But then in this in between place, I wound up starting a consulting business. And so it took me a while to even go back to, you know, what I felt like I was made to do. So I went on that, you know, like, I don't know, the desert kind of wandering, you know, and it's not that I didn't like my consulting business I did, but it's kind of interesting. So thank you for sharing that because it kind of brings us full circle and, and brings us back here.

Speaker B: And I love when you and I met, it was really about. I was seeking out what is my calling in life. Right. And, um, I wonder how many times your listeners need to be reminded that this idea of brand is really about the design that's inside of a person. And I just want to say to anybody who's listening that's been thinking, should I engage Betsy? Um, you should. And, um, one of the things that Betsy will do is help you get better in touch with what's in you. And like, if you're a prospective client and you're like, I've been afraid to say I want to do something. Well, she will probably suss that out of you. Like, and that might be an uncomfortable moment, but it's actually a very safe and a very treasured set of circumstances. So anyway, just don't be Hesitating. Get on Betsy's calendar, at least for a consultation, you at least deserve to hear what she's saying.

Speaker A: Here's all the money that I paid you to sell those night. Just kidding. Checks in the mail for the. For the recommendation. Awesome.

Speaker B: Well, I know it sounds like that, and it's generally. Generally genuinely from my heart.

Speaker A: Oh, well, I am really excited to have you on the show to talk about, like, your story, because it is interesting, you know, that we have this long history because there were a lot of seeds of what you're doing now that were there, and I think that that's an interesting thing. So we're like, I don't know how many years, uh, in the, you know, from the past, but the seeds of what you wanted to do, it's not, like, all that different of where you led, where you landed now. So for those who don't know you, can you share just, like, briefly, like, what you do and why you were at that crossroads and what. What led to this other crossroads where we reconnected last year?

Speaker B: Yeah, I would love to do that, and that's a privilege. So most of my working life has been engaged in what I call mission. And for your listeners to understand, I, uh, am a, um, Christian mission person, but I would love it if they would set aside ideas of religion for the moment, especially if that's not their cup of tea. Because the heart of what I do and the heart of what I help people do is to bring about change in the world based on, like, we know, okay, something is needed. People need help, people need a service, people need, um, an intervention, whatever. And so people in my world are looking at, how do we do that in a way that brings people along? So before I met Betsy, uh, we actually worked at the world's largest agency for this. Um, I was there at that agency for around three decades. And, um, I very much was in an environment where we were stimulated to be the best we could be and dream the best that we could bring into the world. And, um, there are many things that happened right around the time that I met Betsy, but what I'd been hoping for, you know, it's one of those things.

Speaker A: Wait, Betsy 1.0 or Betsy 2.0?

Speaker B: Like the Betsy 1.0.

Speaker A: Okay, the 2008 version.

Speaker B: Okay, the 2008 version. Right. And so all of a sudden, I was not in the part of the world that I loved to live. I had come back to the US And I had to figure out what's up. And I actually, at that Time contemplated doing what I'm doing now, which is on my own, doing the work I want to do with people outside of an organization. Um, so before I'm talking too long, Betsy, how am I doing at answering your question? You want to redirect me?

Speaker A: No, no, no. You're doing great. So basically, in essence, you worked for an organization that tries to do good in the world. So you were part of that big organization. You were there for three decades, you were living somewhere else, and now you're kind of at this place. Like, I'm not living there anymore. My role is changing. What do I do next? And so when we were doing our initial conversation, it was around like, what's next? And you had the seeds that you might want to become, you know, more of a leadership in ministry, a leadership coach and a ministry consultant in the future. But at that point in time, you know, you didn't go down that path or you did go down that path.

Speaker B: Well, actually, at that time, you helped me carve out a space within our very large organization where I was given room to do that.

Speaker A: Oh, so you became an entrepreneur immediately.

Speaker B: Yes, exactly. So we brought coaching and consulting into one of the major divisions of our mission. Um, and I actually was on a global team that was helping several continents worth of people do better at coaching, consulting in order to understand local needs, in order to better. To bring better services. Um, so I did do that for a period of time. Um, and then I don't know what to say about all the inner veening times, but about three years ago, I made another jump where I really stepped out of trying to do that under the umbrella of an organization believing that God, um, and myself were ready to just be with people and figure out what they need and help them move into that.

Speaker A: So you decided to take the leap and do it on your own. So when we reconnected in, in Betsy 2.0 time period last year, you had been in business for a couple of years at that point in time for yourself.

Speaker B: Right, right. I had been my own boss for a couple of years. And, um, I do that in the nonprofit world. I'm not, um, you know, I have a board that I keep myself accountable to. But, um, you know, our. My way of doing things for many years was to work through the relational network that I have. And I have, thankfully, a very broad network. But right before you and I reconnected, um, I had been really hitting the limits of what I could do through my own referral base. And I was very aware and I'd had people that were like, advisor, mentor people tell me along the way, like, what you're doing needs to be published in some fashion. It needs to be public in some fashion. Because someone who needs what I might bring to them, if they can read a book, an article, whatever, um, you know, that is going to accelerate their solution. Um, so that's where I was with those words in my head. Those words had been in my head, um, for more than a decade, with me making very little progress in that direction.

Speaker A: And I think the situation you found yourself in is where a lot of people do, like, it's almost like, like a year or two into business, people start to realize that I need to do something more. Like, you maybe had the seeds for longer, but the prevailing advice is always like, well, just work your network. You know, just, you know, keep being consistent with your network. And it sounds like for you, it's like, no, there, uh, even if I have my network, I still need to be able to manifest my ideas in a way that other people can access, which might not. Not just like, get you clients outside of your network, but actually deepen the relationship with potential clients who do come through your network.

Speaker B: Definitely, definitely. I have already seen that as I give more attention to writing, communicating, people get a better understanding of what I can do with them and for them. And, um, you know, especially as a coach or consultant, like when I'm on the clock with a client, it's their time, it's their goals, right? So there's not so much time to download the things I've been learning or researching. That's gotta be in a different space.

Speaker A: So what was it about the process of, like, okay, so I need to start creating content, but you kind of, you had a website out there, you know, you had some messaging. Why is it that in order for us to work on building your content marketing strategy, we needed to back up and work on your brand positioning and start over? Like, what was what, what wasn't working with your current messaging that we needed to refine it?

Speaker B: Oh, there were many things. There were many things, I would say, um, at the base, there was a certain level of fear. And, um, I think for many of us who want to bring something into the world, uh, for me, I would talk about it a bit abstractly because there is a fear in me of getting too personal and too close or revealing too much, especially to a stranger. Right. So if somebody's going to look at my website, does the content on my website, does that come straight from my heart or does a marketing person help me write it in a way that, like, generates SEOs. So in my case, I'm speaking in extremes because I had a wonderful marketing person who really captured my mind and my thoughts. But I was happy to be distant. Whereas the work that I'm doing is really an extension of who I am. And so I need to get a little more courageous, a little more personal, a little more close in. Um, I would say that's one of my biggest things. Um, it's a little. Because I believe that I can help people who are leading change in this world, and I want to work directly with those visionary, those idealistic people who are bringing that change. It's scary to say that, because the pool of people who do that, it's a small pool. And for any of us, that thing we can specially do, it, uh, may be a small pool of people. So it's like, okay, do I knock off all the opportunity for anyone that might be similar? Yes. But that's all that getting personal and getting small takes courage.

Speaker A: And I think that that's a myth that there's not that many people in that area. I think when you get small, specific, you know, it's not like you're saying, I want to work with visionary leaders of mission organizations who have red hair and have blue eyes and, you know, and like, and like to watch, you know, a TV show that you like to watch. Like, we're not getting that specific, you know, but there are a lot of. If you just even look in Orlando, you know, where we are, like, there's. You can't even shake a stick at, like, like, there's like. Like there's like, mission organizations left and right. You know, there's, uh, like, nonprofit organizations. Like, when you start really seeing it, like, then it's like, oh, my gosh. But I think it's like the. The perception of scarcity is. Is that part. And I think that there's this whole idea of clarity around, like, it's not even just who I help, but I think where you were really, uh, working on is like, what is the problem that I solve? And getting explicit about the problem, you know, because you could say, oh, I help, like, visionaries. You could say, I could help visionary mission leaders, like, create explosive growth, you know, but that's not the part. And I think what a big part of our work together, you are. You're also getting a doctorate and you're in a doctoral program, and you're working on your thesis at the same time. Like, we were talking about your thesis topic. And how that relates. And a lot of your passion is about, you know, about toxic, you know, not. You don't want to create toxic. You want to help people heal from toxic environments. So it was like, we also had to find a home for what you really were going to be talking about, which begs the problem that you solve is that you're. You're solving the problem about creating growth without burning people out, without creating the toxicity to sidestep this, the toxicity that you found yourself in in these organizations that grow too fast or grow too aggressively, you know, and kind of like tap out the people who are doing the work. And you wanted to avoid all of that. And I think that that is something that could resonate, but I think that was another part. Can you, can you speak to that?

Speaker B: Am I right?

Speaker A: Uh, is that correct or am I framing it properly?

Speaker B: And you, you were right on, and you said it so well. I'm like, what is there left to say? Um, you want me to speak to this dynamic of, um, how people be resistant?

Speaker A: I think it was like, the dynamic about, like, how do you deal? I think this is like finding a home for. For, like, the problem that you solve. And I think that it's an inaccurate thing as somebody who's really good with SEO is like, somebody who's good with SEO. Like, really, this magic of SEO is the long tail, keywords is what they call it is like, it's not like somebody, like, why am I so tired? You know, like, lots of people are searching it for it for something like that, but, like, why am I so tired at midlife? Or something that's more specific, like now less people. And so what you want to be able to do is like, go out and put something out there that lots of people are searching for, but not a lot of competition. And I think that you are moving into a space where there's not a lot of competition. That. So that's just, uh, that's a little sidebar on SEO and the misunderstanding, but also like, trying to bring in for you the balance between, like, okay, this is the problem. This seems like a smart SEO kind of stuff. And this emerging passion for what I want to study in school and do a research paper on, this brand has to find a home for this new idea. So, uh, it's like, my brand has to be relevant to what I'm trying to birth at a research project as well.

Speaker B: Sure, sure. And I think the heart of what you're talking about, um, is how people function in a state of constant growth and, um, you know, in the world around us, we have a lot of drive to grow profits, to grow personnel, to get more out of the people who work for us. Right? And um, growth is deeply positive. We all need to be transforming and growing and our individual growth will actually result in output growth in most situations. Um, in a setting where we're serving people or a ministry or a school or a medical situation, um, when growth is only met, you know, is only brought to us by pressure. Pressure, do more, do more. Then we stretch too far and we break, um, or burn out or become disillusioned. And m. I believe that the more important space to find is to find that space where we can, where our internal growth generates our external growth. Um, so personally if I'm transforming and growing and adding my skills or adding perspective, that organically creates even more outward growth. And that is um, a perception that we like that. But it's hard to believe that and be there. So many of us, especially people in service or ministry situations, there is something of a pressure on us to bring pressure to other people. And so we create the opposite dynamic from where people can grow. We create um, a situation that drains people if we're not wise. Right. Any of us can create safety and create dynamics for growth, but we have to really choose on that. And sometimes that means like in leadership we carry the burden of the pressure or we find a way to share the pressure in a way that people can carry. Right. So those are, I think those are some of the funky dynamics. Because of course. Does someone in a ministry want to grow like someone in a business wants to grow? Yes, we want to serve more people, but we need to be healthy as we do that. I think that's, I think that's like where you and I wrestled with ideas and approaches and things like that or even how to describe that. And I love your words. You would say it's an inside out growth.

Speaker A: I feel like that you're hitting us something even bigger though. I wanna, I wanna thought experiment with you on this for a minute. Is that um, you know, we want that you open up this conversation with like understanding our design, you know, and aligning our life to our design. And I've been thinking a lot about this whole idea, like pressure to do more. Like, you know, everybody knows like I have um, you know, um, Claude and AI. Claude and I are, you know, we're having some challenges. We're in marriage counseling right now. Um, but you know, um, you know, but there's this like, there's some of it is Is I think that like, I'm, ah, you know, maybe it's like the phase of my life. It's like, just because you can produce more, does that mean we should? Because our bodies are designed for a certain rate of change, you know, a certain pace of change. And, and I wonder how much of, uh, the problem that we're having is like, inside out and growth is good, but can we even grow faster than our human design is even designed to do it? Like, just because you can get an, uh, answer faster, you can get this done quicker, is that really the, the outcome, you know, that we really want and what are we missing in terms of like, the, like, what is real growth?

Speaker B: Like?

Speaker A: Sometimes, like, I think with like, with writing, for example, you know, like the process of writing and really clarifying your ideas is you wrestling with the concepts. Like, every draft you do, it's about you. Like, if you just get to the answer so quickly, you know, your ideas aren't going to be good. You're not going to have anything break. You know, like, it's, it's that part there. And so when you're dealing with your clients, you know, who are actually putting on themselves these, these goals that are so aggressive, you know, and pressuring themselves to grow. Like, how do you, how do you help them balance it with like, well, you're, as a human, you know, God designed you to manage this level, not this level. Does that make sense? Does my question make sense?

Speaker B: It does. Um, I hope what's coming to my mind in response is meaningful. So, um, being in the Christian world, we talk about multiplication of people. Now, that's taking people out of a personal realm. Um, and it could be, but, you know, it's like, go and make disciples. So what I've learned from God or from you, Betsy, I take that to someone else, I share it. And then this way we multiply the values that we have through people. Right.

Speaker A: Okay. So you're talking about like, um, what Katie Anderson might say as a chain of learning is I take something, I learn it, I pass it on.

Speaker B: Right, Right.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So there's a multiplication effect. This is relating to growth. So, um, you know, in my world, in Christian mission, we think about the locations we can be at. We think about the people who can carry the work that's done in different places, et cetera. So there was a season a couple of decades ago when someone I really respect wrote a book about rapid growth. And it was as if some of the growth could be accelerated. And there was a debate that rose over that. And the way I know to respond to that, because that was a topic for us, and we would have to be like, okay, you don't go faster. You don't pressure yourself necessarily to do more. But if you think of like a woman who's pregnant and a baby starts with literally two cells, and then those cells multiply and the cells multiply and the cells multiply. Now, by and large, it's easy for us to understand that every cell is going to have a steady rate of multiplication. The difference, the point when the baby becomes visible in the mother's stomach and when the baby gets to where it needs to exit the mother and come to life itself is because the number of cells that multiply make it so large. And it kind of feels like a lot of times in the first five months, you might not even notice that a woman's pregnant. But then there comes a point where, no, you notice. You notice.

Speaker A: And you're tiny.

Speaker B: You notice.

Speaker A: All kinds of parts of your body notice. They all tell you there's lots of parts of you. I'm talking about other people looking in,

Speaker B: you know, and, um. But, you know, it seems as if it accelerates. It seems as if growth accelerates because when more cells are multiplying and duplicating, you know, the acceleration, it's like inflation. It looks like it jumps up when really, in some ways it's growing at a steady rate. So this is part of what I think people need to grasp is that we growing a person growing a value takes thought, takes time organically, we want to nurture that. But, you know, where it seems like it accelerates is when more and more people understand and go with something. Right? So I don't know how, if that helps address what you asked me is what comes to my mind. I just think in terms of that growth response.

Speaker A: I think sometimes we just put like, these aggressive goals and it's not helpful. Like, using the pregnancy example, it's nine months. It is what it is. Like, you, you know, you're. You can't exercise your way to make the baby grow faster, you know, And I think that there's a certain thing that there's certain rules of. Like, this is how human nature is. Like, when I think about, like, my biggest growth accelerators, like, there's all these hacks that I would try to do. Like, I was like, you know, I'm a super spiritual seeker kind of person. Not even just like the Christians or like, whatever, you know, like, I did a bunch of things, you know, it's like, so I'm gonna go, like, to this weekend intensive, and it's like, I'm gonna walk away healed. You know, they're gonna cut the cords or do all kinds of things. And it's like, ah, you know, like, it's get like maybe like a momentary thing. Like, really the biggest healing accelerator I've ever done is when I went on my sabatical, you know, when I, like, I literally did nothing for like seven months, you know, or I, you know, and I did the silent retreat. Like, it's like sometimes in doing nothing because, like, growth is happening. And I think that when we're trying to help people, like, so looking at your, your purpose and what you're doing with your branding is like, I want to, I want to grow. I want to help people grow without, you know, inside out. But it's also respecting the authentic pace of growth, you know, and. Yeah, and it feels like, it feels like we needed to get some of these messaging down because I think that that's where a lot of the toxicity that you were researching for your research project is. Like, it's this artificial rate of growth. And we. How to bring it into the brand positioning so that when you write your content, which is where you're now at the part of the process where it's like, now you're going to start exponentially writing more content. All of the ecosystem had to make sense. And, And I think that's, and, and we needed to bring in that part too. It's like, you know, if, like the inside out doesn't mean that you can make yourself grow faster. So now I have a hack to get you out here. It's like, we need to respect it. Right? I think this is why I always say, like, go slow to go fast. You know, it's like, because you just have to kind of like, respect the process. And I think that that's why it took us a little bit too even to work through your brand positioning.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I love the way you say that. And the go slow to go fast, like, fast is just. You have more momentum. You know, I think about the work I do with my clients in the realm of resilience and burnout, you know, you don't. Someone who's burned out doesn't change everything in their world in one day. You take one step, and as a coach, then I want to help cultivate their habit in that one step. And one step of health breeds another step of health breeds another step of health. And so momentum comes by maintaining that edge of moving into the one Step. And maybe we take a second and a third, but you pace it. You pace it so it becomes habitual rather than, oh, my God, you know, I'm so stressed out by all these changes I have to make.

Speaker A: See, now I'm torn on where to take this episode, because I want to go down this path, but I made the promise that this is about, like, how do you get your brand situated so you can, like, actually start attracting clients outside of referrals? So, because I think that this is such a deep, rich topic. Like, I think this is so important for, uh, consultants and coaches because I feel like we set our own pace, we set our own calendars, and we are trying to grow so fast where it's like. But I can just take, like, you were using that example, like, take the one stop. Like, we can't eat the elephant all at once, and we could take the one step. I think this is such an important topic. I might have to bring you on for a separate episode around, like, the. You know, how do you. How do you. How do you. Right. Pace your growth, you know, and how to do that? But so. So there's, like, a couple of things that were going on for you. So there's. There. You had a seed many, many years ago about, like, you really want to do, you know, leadership coaching and. Or, you know, admission consulting, and you wanted to do this a while ago. It really came into fruition. At the same time, maybe some of those experiences of dealing with some of the toxic work environment, you know, you needed to have a little bit more pain underneath your belt, you know, in order for you to have, like, a really, good, you know, authentic brand story, you know, and so now you're at this other part where it's like, okay, I'm going to get this doctoral program. My branding needs to, you know, kind of accommodate that. So we use that as part of the, uh, context for your help. We had another big breakthrough with your brand positioning that I think also sets you apart, which is really tapping into your gifts around wisdom and tapping into the fact that you're not really a. Like, you're co. You do coaching, but your essence of how you show up with your client is a lot more of, like, a trusted advisor. Can you talk about, like, that moment of that? Aha. Uh-huh. Like, I might be someone who does coaching, but I'm not a coach. I really am this person who's more of a trusted advisor. Can you talk a little bit about that moment?

Speaker B: Yeah, I don't. And I'll say I'm. I might miss the moment, but let me talk about that dynamic. So, um, I want to give the background that, uh, m. When I started into the coaching realm, I had been doing one on one leadership development with people probably for a decade. So, and some of what I do in terms of saying no to pressure to expand and right. Sizing growth is because I had to do that. Where we were, I lived in Albania, I lived in Eastern Europe. And um, I wasn't very popular sometimes with leadership because I would be like, no, you can't do that. Because I was like, unless we grow these people with these amount, these levels of capacities, we're going to, you know, we're going to burn ourselves out. So I was doing that for many years. Um, when I became a coach, um, in my experience of learning to be a coach, it was that trusted space because my training in coaching was very much about what does this other person want? What's keeping them from that and how do you unleash them to their desired outcome? Um, you know, here we are 15 years after I got certified as a coach. And I'd say in reality, most of the coaches that we might find on the Internet, they've got five steps to whatever and they're shoving a program down our throats now that, forgive me, coaches that are not like that because that's not everyone. Um, but then all of a sudden someone who's leading a mission has another boss instead of someone that's coming alongside of them. So that was one thing that I had to, um, accept and adjust my thinking on. But the trusted advisor part is so essential because, um, we're talking about growth from the inside out. The only way a human being can grow from the inside out is to be in a space where they have trust, where they have emotional, psychological and spiritual safety. Um, if you happen to be a person who likes the Bible and likes God, you see this in Eden. Eden means delight. Like shalom is a word that we use a lot to, that God gave to us to understand there's a, there's a peace, there's a safety. And in that safety, growth can happen.

Speaker A: And um, and if you don't like God, because you just said like, if you like God. So if you don't like God, what's, you know, what's, what's the answer? And so if you're God lover, you might like Eden and the shalom, you know, but if you're a God hater, you might well just allow my metaphor

Speaker B: is what I want to say.

Speaker A: And If. And if you hate God, what's the worst? If you hate God, he loves you. How's that? I don't know. I'm trying to be sensitive to many, many diverse outlooks. I. Anyway, I don't know, Betsy, what do you want? So we're not saying if, you know, if you're a good person who loves God, you're going to like this. And if you're a bad person, I think what you're really trying to say. In my. In my spiritual tradition, there's a perspective around Eden, and Eden reflects shal. And so in the context of shalom, you can create the psychological safety that somebody can grow in. So I got your point. I just wanted to make fun of you just for a minute, because it's funny. Thank you. You're welcome.

Speaker B: And, you know, take it that further. Um, neuroscience completely proves scientifically that these principles are true.

Speaker A: Good save.

Speaker B: Good.

Speaker A: And neuroscience, all the other people who don't have a Christian traditions are like, oh, she could talk my language, science.

Speaker B: In fact, I'll say, outside of religious spaces, the concept of psychological safety was much better documented.

Speaker A: That's true.

Speaker B: And anyway, so, um, trusted advisor brings a space of safety, and safety is needed for transformation. That's the point of what I'm trying to say. Um, and so whatever it takes to help someone who wants to bring change into the world to experience a safe, trusted space for them to work out their ideas, work out the steps, that's what is needed so that there are more people bringing into the world the change that they're supposed to bring.

Speaker A: I think also there was another element that was excellent. Excellent. Good job. Snaps to you. Uh, and thanks for making fun of me. Oh, you're welcome. Yeah, I got more where that comes from. You know, let's bring it. We're good friends. We could pull that one off. But I think there's also the advisor piece. Like, sometimes I think, like, coaches are too rigid with coaching, or it's like I just ask questions, and sometimes they're like, people just say, could you just, like, give me your perspective, you know, or could you help me think differently? You know, And I think that the advisor, you know, having that word of wisdom for the particular moment, you know, where you can bring that forward without feeling like I'm violating my entire, like, ICF certification. You know, I think it's an important permission because I think that there's, like, a coaching business. Like, to me, there's a B2C coaching business, a business to consumer coaching business, where we work with individuals in a private kind of practice. And there's some people who might be called coaches who aren't like doing coaching as ICF might describe it. Like they're, you know, a five step process is fine, but just like people don't know what else you're doing with the one on one. Like, I'm very particular. I have a coaching business, but I don't, I'm not a coach, you know, and I think that there's moments where you might slip into coaching. You know, like you might choose. Not slip in, you might choose to show up as a coach, but as an advisor. Means I've been, I have, I have experience that you can draw from. And I'm not going to hold back my experience from all of those years that I was in a similar place that you are. And I think that that was like a big aha is like because of my years of experience and my years of study, I'm, um, It's okay that I could step into the advisory role and give somebody timely advice for their complex situation, which is huge benefit and huge value. So we sometimes call you a trusted advisor and sometimes we call you a coach. Sometimes it's a coaching program, sometimes it's a trusted advisor program. And they're not necessarily one of the same. It could be a trusted coaching program and a trusted advisor program, but they're, they're a little different.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And that's important because, um, there are plenty of people who, um, get with me. I had one client who just said so candidly, I need you to be the eyes I don't have.

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker B: He's like, you know, my job and you know what's happening here. I need your eyes, you know, and in that invitation, that's exactly what I brought forward. Because many of us who are bringing something forward, we know what we want, but we need extra eyes and we need someone who's got our six. Looking at the dynamics, seeing the dynamics around us that we're talking about with a different set of eyes. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So thanks for articulating that.

Speaker A: And I think a lot of times, like who were called to help or who were meant to help or the clients meant for us, or you know, whatever phraseology you choose to use in this moment. I, I'm flexible. You know, I have a lot of different backgrounds. You know, I can, I can speak to all of them, but it's really usually, uh, an earlier version, like who your ideal client typically is, is an earlier version of you. And a lot of the Reasons why we want to help that person is we want them to, you know, it's succeed in ways that, that we. What we might have succeeded in but without all the hassles and the pain and the struggles that we had along the way. You know, like a lot of times we heal ourselves by helping others in the same ways that we have been wounded. And so because of that is our ideal client. We have life wisdom. So holding back on that doesn't help. Like, I'll. I feel very animated with my clients. Like where I, I'm. I could be lukewarm on my best practices, but I am super animated on my worst practices. You know, like things that, things that have cost me time and money. I'll be like, uh, you know, you can make your own mistakes, but just like for the love of, you know, of all things holy, please do not make my mistakes. You know, and wouldn't I be remiss if I didn't share it? You know, like I'm very, I'm very bullish on making sure that you have your business name be your personal name. I have a thousand reasons for it. And a lot of it is, is because Accelerate Consulting Group is still on albatross around my neck, you know, that it was the worst decision I made and it's cost me money and I still have to pay for the stupid URL that I don't use anymore because it's all connected to my, you know, my podcast and this and that, you know, and so there's a reason why. And I feel like the advisor and allowing yourself to have a trusted advisor program gave permission and, and almost like a, A uh, greater credibility is like, yeah, I can provide all that leadership coaching and all of that leadership development. I have all that expertise. But what's unique about me and why you should work with me is I've been where you are, not in general specifically. And I think that's where it's specializing it down. It opens more opportunities, but deepens your credibility.

Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah, yeah. When it deepens our connection. Because if I'm working with someone and I happen to say to them, is that really what you want? Because I realize they may be appeasing, um, a stakeholder or appeasing someone who's applying pressure and they want to get out of the pressure, but doing that might give up something that actually is at the core of their value structure. Like I can ask that question, is that really what you want to do? You know, and I think any of us that are helping a younger version of ourselves, a person who's on the journey that we were on, um, we can see and articulate, and sometimes we articulate that because we didn't have the courage at that age to articulate it then. You know, we needed. How many of us did what we did in the world alone without a great, you know, system of guidance and counseling? And we worked it out. Good. We worked it out. But why? Why do it alone?

Speaker A: You know, that's perfectly sad. I can, I cannot add anything else. That was fantastic. Um, okay, so let's do it alone. Yeah, I know why. Well, I grow it alone when you don't have to. Okay. Yeah. Part of good content is you have to connect with your, your words, you know, you have to act them out. But I think that was a little over dramatic. Um, okay, so speaking of content, so you are now getting ready to really get into content marketing. So you have gone through. So you're part of my content marketing accelerator, or content from conversion content accelerator group right now. And you really resonated with what we talked about in the first, on our first week where we talked about the different stages of the buyer's journey. You know, like, how does having this deepened level of ideal client clarity help you? How do you, how do you think it's helping you with this content marketing strategy that you are in the, in the process of putting a bow on, you know, and understanding the different touch points?

Speaker B: Well, one, because I don't live in the world of let's use some air quotes marketing, um, and I could be put off by quote marketing ideas. One of the things you did with us in talking about the buyer's journey was actually zero in on the experience. Like, hey, somebody has a problem. They don't even, they haven't even named the problem. Right. And so one step in the process is actually, this is a problem.

Speaker A: Do you see how much this is

Speaker B: eating your lunch or how much this is costing you? Like, identifying the problem is one thing, and then you helped us see the natural progression. Once you realize it's a problem, you have to decide, is it worth solving it? Can it be solved? Is it important to have someone come alongside of me? And so, um, maybe it's because I am a natural problem solver that all of a sudden I realize, oh, yeah, there's a lot that, um, I touch with my clients where, you know, it needs to be said, do we even realize this is a problem? Let's name this as a problem. Um, anyway, that unleashed me like, so, for instance, right now I'm Working on the topic of why does a mission leader need a trusted advisor? Well, the problem is a mission leader is always going to bring change. Right? That's what we want. We want a better world. Better world requires change. The human body, and this is part of my studies, the human body is designed to resist change in every way possible. We do that physically. We do that with our relational systems. We do that on a thousand levels. And so someone who wants to bring change in the world needs to not be alone. They need an advisor that helps them marshal, um, it through. Right. So I hope I'm answering your question, but um, somehow getting in that reality of what's the problem, Helping my clients name the problem and name the importance of the solution. Yeah, it kind of unleashed me to be able to articulate realities that we face.

Speaker A: So, um, we're actually. Do you mind if I speak into like where this fits in with your strategy?

Speaker B: Tell me.

Speaker A: So this is a late stage article. Like this would be something like that would be much farther down the journey of like now they've already discovered that they had a problem. They've discovered it's worth solving. Getting someone else is better than nothing, you know, then doing it on their own. Now they're evaluating their options. That's where your trusted advisor article, you know, why you should have an advisor, you know, like to complete the, the picture, you know, when you're working on your content is you want to have stuff all along the way. 5 reasons why your growth is stalled out, you know, and you know, what's, what's your stalled out growth costing you? You know, um, then it's like, what's the business case of change? Or you know, like that kind of thing. And then you might do an article around, you know, five, you know, five ways that five types of people that you can get to help you, you know, so one could be on like you could get a traditional leadership coach, you can join a program, you could do this, you could do that. And then this article comes in later on with the trusted advisor, you know, and almost like the trusted advisor advantage. And if you have all of those other articles in place, you can actually link your articles. You could link all those previous articles to this particular article and kind of like it's like it becomes a cluster, if you will. So like this one's a good late stage one, but you might want to link it. And then you can link all of these together because somebody's not sitting up at night immediately, you know, like this would be somewhere. They're like they're, they're, they might be in the process of, like, hanging out on your website and reading your blog and following your newsletter and, you know, doing all that stuff. And it's like, oh, I never thought about a trusted advisor, but if you could hook it to those other problems, you know, and that's where I think, like, having all the clarity the ideal client is, what would it. There's a million decisions before they decide I need to have a trusted advisor.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: But if you didn't have the refinement on your ideal client, you know, I don't know, would you have been able to map out this journey to even begin with, you know, or you might. Uh, because, like, I think a lot of times as consultants and coaches, like, we write content to, like, the end of the client's journey. 5 Ways to Trust yourself. Like, okay, trust myself with what? Like, that's a thousand, you know, like, that's so far removed from where I'm at. Like, is later on. Like, how does having, you know, the understanding of, like, they're trying to grow and they're struggling because they're burning people. They're. They're lose, you know, they donors and this and that, like, dealing, like, how did that, uh, help. How is that helping you when you're strategizing kind of like, what, what. How you want to show up as a content market. Content marketer. Here, I'll do the air quotes, but. Or, you know, but really it's a content. You know, I take out the air quotes. It's a, It's a, It's a server of humans that you haven't met yet, using the power of content. That's probably a better way to say it. I'm sure it is, but I've lost your question now. How does helping. How does deep. Having that time where you've deepened your understanding and your empathy for your ideal client, how do you imagine it's gonna. It is helping you as you're putting a bow on your content marketing strategy?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, just, um, there's a lot more awareness of, oh, yes, we are facing this problem. Oh, yes, we're facing this problem. You know, um, that's all I know to say. I'm probably even too far out and continuing to zero in. But there's, um, there's just clarity. I don't know. You tell me I'm not finding better words for this.

Speaker A: Well, I mean, I feel like even coming up with the topics, you know, it's, you know, like, that even begins because you can see the world from the client's perspective. Like, I really feel like that the. At the end of the day, brand messaging marketing is all hinges. Your effectiveness in it all hinges on empathy. Like, the biggest challenge I think we all have when it, uh, when. Whenever we have, like, fuzzy messaging or we have ineffective marketing, it's like, it's usually because we're all stuck on our own head and we can't. We don't see the world from the perspective of the person that we want to serve. And if we could, like, flip the spotlight from ourselves onto the ideal client, it changes our ability to craft the right words, create the right content, but it also gets us out of worrying about it so much. Like you were saying, like, at the beginning, you know, about the visibility, the vulnerability and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, I, uh, I'm wondering, is like, going through the process of really creating with deeper empathy to your ideal client? Is it. How's that affecting your confidence and your competence in the content marketing that you're planning to do that? Without it, you wouldn't have had what you needed.

Speaker B: Yeah, I definitely think it's there. I think as you're posing the question, my mind is going in a slightly different direction. What was I doing when I was in my client's shoes? Uh, I was putting my hand over the dashboard and not looking at problems. I was not admitting to myself that people were resisting and creating tension. I was trying to band aid differences between people, then get to the problem. Right. And so in that way, where we do the things that also save ourselves, like, it's like, okay, being at this space, I, um, am faster to name the problem. I'm faster to take my hand away from blocking the view of the dashboard. You know, I think, um, that's how I know to say it, because it's like getting back into the moment, which is empathy. Although I'm. I'm a more thinking person than a feeling person, so I'm. I'm aware of my thought processes. Right. But it is empathy because I am walking in the shoes of the other person and I'm allowing myself, even my memories, to go back and be more clear about the shoes that I was walking in. Because sometimes we want to deny that we're walking through the mud.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: So, um, maybe just for me, I'm like. I'm just aware of healthier doses of reality.

Speaker A: I think that is a great tip, though, to remember if you can't like to. If you want to get out of your head, get in your clients a Lot of times is just to remind yourself of when you were in those shoes. It's almost like it would be great to pull up a picture of yourself from a time period that reflects who you want to, who you want to work with and like put it on your computer. And when you're trying to brainstorm content, you know, it's like, well, what would you know, 40 year old Corey want to know, you know, what, what was she struggling with? What was she dealing with? And then you could really write good content, you know, for that person, you know, and, and speak more clearly. Um, so content is one. So, so if your objective was, is like I want to get out of just relying on referrals. Content is your ticket out. Like that became clear to you and you needed to work on your brand positioning, your messaging, your website and all those things to get that, to get that ticket out. Are there other things that you're visualizing now that you've gone through this process that's going to help you get more clients outside of referrals or uh, relying on referrals? It's not like referrals are bad, it's just outside of just relying on referrals.

Speaker B: M. Of course. And you know, there are people that have, I've already been helping that it's like what are new tools to help them? So being in the space of creating content also like there are times when being just a coach and being aware of here's what the person is asking me to do for them meant I didn't pre think what's the process of a certain type of growth? Like you know, sometimes I'm training supervisors how to be a supervisor. Well, is there a process to giving people an idea of what their job is and then how do they evaluate the person with their job and how do you keep building them up? Uh, there's actually a process there. So I do think the content is also causing me to, and helping me articulate the processes that the people in my field are facing so that we can go, okay, there is a process. One, two, three, right? That's if you at least have a mental map of that. Um, sometimes you have the edge up on what needs to happen. So that's one thing I um, think I'm aware of ways that I can do, um, webinars or messaging or even longer content spaces. That's really going to help people. Do you know what we talk about with leading mission? So I say there's more bubbling up.

Speaker A: So in some ways it's like becoming consciously competent over, you know, really what is it that you're doing with other people and codifying in a way to create more value. So potentially it's not even about getting new clients. It's about extending the value with existing clients. And so there's like, that one path, and then the other path is. Is like, if I can become more consciously competent and I can start manifesting things, I could use it and rejig it in different ways. Like, I could put it into a webinar. Like, you know, it. You can start speaking because now you have content. Now you can go out and get more speaking engagements. You can continue to engage people. You could be more effective on social media. Just sounds like. Sounds like the con, the process. So this goes back to our conversation about growth. The process of really uncovering your ideas and letting them unfold will pay off huge benefits. But if you just, like, throw a piece of content into, like, chat and just get the outcome really fast, you won't be able to go through that wrestling process that would create all this extra value. So. So there I. We. We looped it all together somehow. There you go. We did what some might call the weave. We actually did do the weave. Awesome. Awesome. So, um. Okay, well, we talked about so many different things. Is there anything else that you would want to share about? Really? Just, um, you know, what you're discovering your purpose, living your purpose, and then using that information to. To really connect with the people that you really are meant to work with and how to use content to break you free from relying on referrals and I'm just not asking you the right question.

Speaker B: Well, you've done a stellar job of asking me the right questions. And, um, you know, if there was. If there was anything that's crossed my mind that I might like to add, I, um, think, Betsy, you've heard me refer to this movie, and I'm probably going to mess up all the names, but, um, my husband is a fan of Guardian of the Galaxy, so we've watched all the movies, and all of them run into my mind. And, you know, there's the raccoon character who, in one of the very last movies, we start to understand his superpower. And his superpower came from the pain that he experienced at a young age. So I'm going to leave out stuff so that if somebody wants to watch it. Right.

Speaker A: His name is Rocket. It's the best show. You will fall in love with Rocket so much. I didn't know I knew Brian and I had stuff in common.

Speaker B: If there's Anything to add to what we've already said?

Speaker A: It is.

Speaker B: You know, for Rocket, it was so scary to embrace the things that, for him, in his mind, he cursed. Those were the worst parts of his life, and those were his superpowers. And I, um, think that's actually a human dynamic that our superpowers come from. The things that really were the most wounding, the most painful. Painful. And of course, hurt people can hurt people. So we walk with care, and we make sure we get healed. But I think one of the, um, points of bravery in life is to go, okay, maybe this thing that I count as so horrible is actually the way to bring great gold to people in this world. Right. Like, opening up to that is just such an important step. And we haven't really said that as we've talked, but I think that's kind of an underlying reality for me. Right. We all. We all are Rocket in some way.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And our superpower needs to be unveiled, and it takes, um, being scared to let that thing be seen. For many of us, I think that's

Speaker A: the hardest part of all of it. You know, like, if you want to be on purpose, you know, like, part of being on purpose is I'm according to my design. And if you want to be on purpose, it's also making meaning out of your story. You know, like, that's the purpose within the things that have happened to you. Both positive and challenging, but particularly challenging because, like, there's deeper wisdom that you're going to get from suffering. And none of us like the suffering. But, you know, it's. It is the seeds of what will and what. What actually brings credibility, and it brings connection. It's in that vulnerability that we bond. So that's a great ad.

Speaker B: The smoking plants, the seeds of our superpowers. And we've got to find a way to embrace that.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's a hard journey, but that's, um, a critical one. Thank you for bringing that up. And you model that.

Speaker B: You model that well, Betsy, and I think you pull that out of people very well. I hope more listeners will get on your calendar because they have superpowers to unveil.

Speaker A: Yes. But I am much more sensitive about, uh, coming to later realization about how vulnerable some of my process is. So I promise I will create psychological safety. You know, for those who don't love God, it'll be psychological safety. For those who do, it'll be Shalom. It'll be Eden. You know, I will work really hard on that. So, um, Corey, what's your, um, what's your website address? For people who want to learn more about you and connect with you, especially if they know nonprofit leaders, um, in ministry and beyond that, you would be a perfect fit for. What's your email? I mean, um, not your email. Your web address. No, your web address, my website.

Speaker B: It's all the same. It's my name. So. Corey Crawford Vanoss C o r I crawfordvanoss.com so, um, and my email address is coreyoricawfordvanass.com so I think if you can get Corey Crawford Van, the rest will probably fill in in your search. Um, and I would love, um, there's opportunities there to communicate with me and I'd love to interact if, if this has stimulated a thought, that would be a real treasure.

Speaker A: Uh, awesome. And Also you're on LinkedIn. People can find you there as well.

Speaker B: I'm on LinkedIn and I'm on Facebook.

Speaker A: Yeah. So Corey is a perfect fit especially for, for people who are dealing with a lot of complexity or even people who are just like brand new to leadership. And it's like I was a great technical, um, expert. Now I'm like suddenly in charge and now what do I do? Like, so she can help leaders, but it's like, it's. But more specifically people who understand people are in the middle of the pressures that are unique to the nonprofit space and the missional space and people who have to deal with volunteers and a lot of other complexities that others don't have. So Corey is definitely a person there, so definitely highly recommend her. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I would love to have you on the show again where we could just talk about like what's the, what's the right pace for growth, you know, that matches our human design. So we might save that for another day. Um, for everyone who's listening, um, I'd love to work with you if you do want to get connected to your purpose. Obviously that is something that I'm super passionate about and I promise I won't make fun of you unless I know you for over 10 years like I've known Corey. So I will only make fun of you and that scenario, but you can make fun of me back. It's a two way banter street so you get to do that. Um, if you enjoyed the show, please hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any future episodes. I would love it if you could rate and review it so more people can find the show. And until next time, thank you, thank you all so much. For listening.