Scaling Success Your Way with Denise Musselwhite (Ep167)

Speaker A: I'm starting to see the difference more clearly between the systems that keep my business running and me, like, trying to separate myself from what keeps the business running versus the things that only I can deliver. So that's starting to emerge now in year three, four. And where I'm headed now is to systematize and operationalize some of the deliverables that I don't have to touch myself so that I can be fully present and with my favorite clients and doing the work that only I can do.

Speaker B: Well. Hey there, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of the Consulting Matters podcast. I'm your host, Betsy Jordan, and we have a very special episode and a very new series that I'm just kicking off. And this series is all about, like, where are they now? So I've had a bunch of my clients on the podcast and they shared all these great stories about their brand messaging, their positioning, and how it helped them accelerate their profitability and their launch and all of that stuff. But you probably been wondering, like, well, where have they gone now? Like, where are they now? How's their business grown? So, um, I'm kicking off this series and I'm starting it with one of my favorite clients, who is Denise Musselwhite. You've heard me share her story over and over again. So if you're wondering about who Denise is, she's the one who is the. The woman who made it to the top of tech of as, uh, a cio, as a Latina woman, and how she realized that was her business and that's what she wanted. You've heard me tell her story over and over again. She's been on the show and she is the one I decided I want to kick off this brand new series with because I can't wait to catch up on where she's been in the last few years. So, without further ado, welcome, welcome, um, welcome, Denise.

Speaker A: Hi, Betsy. It's so good to see you. I'm so glad to be here to have another chance to come together with you on your podcast. The last time we did this, if I remember correctly, I didn't know we were going to be on video and my hair was like a hot mess, like in a Ben, I think. And if I was in like a dock office, because I thought it was all only going to be audio today, it's not that much better, but at least I'm more prepared.

Speaker B: I think it's so funny. It's like we all get, like, so precious about, like, in some ways, like, how we are on Camera. But it's like, people are totally used to things in a way that they weren't before. Like, I used to dress up more for, like, my podcast videos because I'm like, oh, it's like, it's a podcast. I have to be, like, more formal. And people are so used to us being in these environments. So it was. It was fine. And actually, it was. More importantly, the content was really good. Um, so I remember when we launched, when we had that conversation, I was still back in Denver and it was snowing where I was. So that was back in, what, 20, 23, when you launched your business. What I'd love for you to do is ground everybody and who you are. And the salient aspect of your story that I was just sharing is, like, uh, a little bit about your background and the big decisions that we made with your brand positioning, because that was a really important part. So if you can ground everybody in your background and then how long it took you while you were trying to figure out, like, what your business was about so that we can kind of pick up the story afterwards. But everybody needs to get grounded because not everybody has heard me tell your story thousands of times on the show. But for those who haven't heard it.

Speaker A: So, uh, my name is Denise Acosta Musclewhite. I, uh, was a former Chief Technology Officer, Chief Information Officer. Depending on, you know, what industry you're in, different titles apply there. And I also served, um, on a national board for about eight years as a, um, chair and other roles there as a board member. And, um, I did that work for, um, the CIO, work I did for most of my career, 25 years, mostly in education, and had great success there. It was amazing. I loved my career as a Chief Technology Officer. Um, what I realized when I went back in midlife to get my master's, um, I did my research on what holds women in STEM back. It also happened to be during the pandemic. While I was doing that work, which is so crazy when I think back on it, um, I realized that so much of the evidence that was learning about the research I was doing was pointing to a lot of the things that I had experienced as one of the only Latinas in the room, as a Chief Information officer that I had, um, really assimilated a lot to and adjusted myself a lot in order to fit into those spaces. And when I did that research, I couldn't unsee what I learned. I just couldn't unsee it. It kept coming back to me. And, um, I remember talking to my husband and saying, hey, I think I want to do something different. Not knowing really what I wanted to do yet, but knowing that I wanted to pivot in a new direction. Having really understood some of the cost of being um, at the top in technology leadership, um, in this identity that I had, um, he agreed and I got myself a coach. And that coach helped me to reidentify myself. And that work with her helped me to decide to take a sabbatical. And I took a sabbatical. And during that sabbatical, um, did some coursework and tried to define what I wanted to do next. And came to the decision that my purpose and passion for this next chapter of my career was going to be about coaching and giving back to the community in ways that were meaningful to me so that I could help other women, people of color, individuals who see themselves as the only at the table, um, move past those barriers easier than I did, um, and with more self awareness than I had at the time. I think an important part of the story that I think Bessie tells a lot is the fact that I am the daughter of a Puerto Rican dad and a Dominican mom and that I grew up in my parents repair shop alongside my dad, a mechanic. Um, I am the oldest girl in a Latino family with three kids. And it's really pretty rare for a girl to be like pulled into this male circle of mechanics. But my dad needed me to be there so I could translate some technologies that he had to diagnose cars when I was in middle school. And that really opened my eyes to my natural inclination towards technology and his encouragement of help of allowing me to translate those technologies to his mechanics and to him, um, for his clients even, uh, he wouldn't have called them clients, he would have called them customers. Um, and to be like front of the house explaining mechanical things to my parents customers when I was in middle school and high school really, really gave me a lot of confidence to talk about topics that girls don't talk about. And I didn't realize that I didn't have permission to do that until I entered the real work world. And it tried to put me back in my place. Well, uh, anybody who knows me knows that putting me back in my place is not possible. I don't get put back into places. I create.

Speaker B: Nobody puts Denise in the corner.

Speaker A: Yeah, I don't get put back into places. I create new spaces and new places where everyone can succeed. So that's what I've been doing and now I do it as an, a professional, certified coach and team. Effectiveness consultant. And I created a company called Tech and Thrive. And I deliver data informed coaching to clients, um, all over the world. And it's been amazing since I worked with you, Betsy, to figure all that out. I didn't know what I was going to do, and I would not have figured that out without you.

Speaker B: Thank you. Um, but I think what's interesting hearing this story is it was all right there.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker B: as I think about this crossroads you were at, you were trying to decide, do I leverage my expertise as a technology leader and do I go help other organizations or other schools with technology, or do I go down this other path? And it was interesting, is even as you were telling the story, this other path was already presenting itself. What was it in the work that we did that gave you the ability to let go of, like, even though I built my career on this other one, I could really trust it because that was the. That was the watershed moment. Like, that was it. Like, once we got clear, like, this is the direction, like, everything just, like, went into place. Like, everything. You know, we got your. Your Thrive, um, framework together. You know, we got. We got clarity on your. Once we got that direction, we got clarity on your ideal client. We got clarity on the problem you solve. We got clarity on the framework. We got clarity on, you know, kind of like the.

Speaker A: The.

Speaker B: The, um, offers that you were going to do, all of that came. But what was it about that moment that allowed you what, like, what allowed you to trust that it is not even just you? You had this other passion from your school. You were mentoring people on the side. You are part of the Florida Executive Women Council. Like, you were always mentoring people. What was it? So does my question make sense? As it was all right there? What was it allowed you to trust that what was emerging was the right direction for you?

Speaker A: You know, I think that it was a culmination of things that allowed me to trust. Um, I really remember, um, a conversation that I had with my husband at the time, right, where I, you know, was expressing enthusiasm and also fear. Um, and I know that I did that with you often. Um, and I remember him asking me, like, when have you ever failed at something that you put your mind to? And I was like, huh, huh. Similarly to, like, nobody puts Denise in her place. It's like, if I. When I set my mind to something, I'm gonna turn it into something and it's going to succeed, even if it doesn't look exactly the way that I thought. Right? Like, right. It's gonna get there, right? So he's like, I don't really know anyone who's as disciplined or motivated or intense and focused as you. So why is it that this is scaring you? And I was like, oh, you know, so it's like he held up a mirror, maybe, and you did that to me, too. Um, yeah. So I think that's the. The moment is when you realize if I am, um, the daughter of immigrants who, by all accounts, probably should not have succeeded, but did. Right. My parents were able to create a path forward for us in a way that was incredibly remarkable. I was successful as a woman, as one of the only people at the table, as a cto, cio, and I became a board chair of a national association. Like, if I can do all those things, why is this scaring me? Right? So that, uh, kind of realization, when I started to pay attention to the evidence that I had created in the past and through some of the work that you and I did together, really helped to kind of unlock, um, the fear, um, or. And also push me towards. The fear is the thing that you have to feel in order to get to the next place. So I think realizing that the fear was not really fear was just. I hadn't done this before, but I was going to figure it out.

Speaker B: I think that what you're talking about here that is really powerful is that you reminded yourself of your, you know, your. Your character traits. Like, it's not even like you're gifting. It was just like, this is my character. This is who I am. You know, if I'm going to go down this path, I'm going to know. I'm going to figure it out. So, like, I could tap in to that part. Like, I can make anything work. And I think that there's this other side, too, that in the conversations that we had, is like, I've been doing this all along. I just haven't been paid for it. And I think for a lot of people, why they get a coaching certification is, is that I have this formal expertise that I have gotten paid for. It was part of my, uh, my previous education. I've gotten rewarded for this. But now I've got this other thing that I've been building, and it's been organic, and it's not necessarily recognized. So it's like I get a coaching certification to kind of recognize it. But Even that wasn't 100% enough. It was to recognize, like, I built an expertise. And for yourself is, I know how to get to the C suite. As a Latina woman, I know how to be the only person in the room, and I know how to develop other people to achieve the same thing, because I've been doing that for free, you know, or, you know, in this volunteer capacity for years. And I think that was the other part. One is your character, and one is I actually been doing this, and I've actually been getting results. I just haven't been formally recognized for these results. Yeah.

Speaker A: So, absolutely, Betsy, you nailed it there. Um, and what's so interesting about what you just said, um, so much of that realization that I had, um, is part of the reason why I selected transparent assessment or transparent leadership as the T in Thrive, right. In the Thrive operating system is because that first step of really getting close to understanding who you. Who you are at your core, the things that are just like, you can't separate yourself from them, um, are so important to you, redefining whatever that is that you want to attract next. Um, so, yes, you help to, uh, you help me uncover that through our work together. And I continue to uncover that with clients and myself every single day, like, because it's still a work in progress.

Speaker B: But it was all there. Like, the other part, too, I think that unleashed for you too, is like, what's so fascinating is you reminding me of the, uh, of what you were studying when you were in school around, like, women in STEM and all of that kind of stuff. Like, that's been there. And. And it's like I saw your affect in terms of your energy. Like, okay, so we went down the path, like, we tried on the future of doing consulting. You know, like, we. And it's like, you know, we talked about. It was all at this head level, then we went to this other level, and it's like, well, clearly you've had this passion. Like, you were. You're really motivated. And even now, like, everything you talk about is like, but they have to be at the table. Like, tech needs more diverse talent at the table. Like, you can get into this. And then you went and got, um, you know, more. More exposure to enhancing your thought leadership. And it all comes back down to what you were doing in 2020 on the side. That was like emerging from your own story. So it was all there.

Speaker A: It was all there. And, um, knowing that I had that time with you to work through it put, um, brought it into focus, right? Yes. Yeah.

Speaker B: But then you became a powerhouse. So let's. Let's pick up the story after.

Speaker A: So always there a bit.

Speaker B: You.

Speaker A: The powerhouse part was always there. It was just. Now it's different.

Speaker B: I Know, it's going in a totally different direction, but it's, uh, it's the logical next step. One of the things I talk about now when I talk to my clients about, like, what direction you should take is what represents a promotion. You know, like, what would represent the what's next? Well, obviously that would make sense is if you were going to get a promotion beyond a cio, well, what would you do? You would create more conditions for more talent to be at the table. So it does make sense. It's. There's congruence. It's not like. It's not like you just all of a sudden decided, like, you know, I'm really into technology, but now I have this midlife, and I think I want to become an artist and open an art studio. Like, it wasn't like, I didn't go that far. Yeah, yeah, it was organic.

Speaker A: Yes, it was. It was definitely in the same direction. I was just, uh, focused in, in a very, very specific area.

Speaker B: So we had our conversation in 2023, where you officially launched. After that, let's talk about all the things that you did after that. So after that, you codified the Thrive model, you turned it into an assessment, you created a course, you launched group coaching programs. Then, um, I think then you continued on to work on your keynote speaking. Um, and so bring us up to date of all the things that you've done with this clarity that you've gotten on. This is what I meant to do in this phase of my career.

Speaker A: I mean, it's yes to all of that. And, you know, every single month I kind of reflect on the previous month to see where I spent my time. And now, three years into this, I spend, um, a good bulk of my time one on one with clients in my executive coaching container. Um, and that is the predominance of my work is one on one with my VIP clients. And then I also do group UM and team development through retreats, group cohorts, where we might also add on one on one coaching um. And I am still speaking. I actually just last week spoke to, um, a group of women in tech as part of a UM employee UM group at a large tech company. They invited me to come speak to their women. Um, and that was really, um, incredible. Uh, I was in Georgia a couple of weeks ago delivering an AI UM ready workshop, which is part of my teams that Thrive offerings. So I've been doing a lot of that same work. I think what's changed is my clarity around who my ideal, most favorite clients are and who I want to work with. So I'm at that place now where I don't have to work with everybody. I get to. I actually, from the beginning, I really got to curate, uh, a beautiful list of clients because I think I was intentionally speaking to my ideal client and they were coming toward me. And then I end up with a wonderful list of people that I absolutely love working with because I am asking the universe to please find them and bring them to me somehow so that my message is clear that this is what I do. And then they find me. And it's typically a great match as soon as we get together because we're speaking the same language. And I really, really do think that a lot of that clarity came from the work that you and I have done together. Um, reminding myself who my favorite clients are, what's the work I love to do, and being really clear about that so that when I am speaking or, um, in an, in a space where I get to share what I do with people, I'm like really clear on who I, who works with me. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it works.

Speaker B: I help on the problem I solve,

Speaker A: who I help and the problem that I solve. That, to me, it has been incredible. And you know, there's been a lot of milestones since we worked together. You know, um, getting fully booked one on one and realizing now I have to like offer group. Right. Because I'm too full. I cannot take any more one on one clients. That's like a, a great problem to solve. So that problem is, is solved. Getting solved. Right. Shifting more towards group work, um, changing how much I chart. You know, there's just like a lot of things that you have to do in order to scale. And I'm doing that right. Realizing that, oh, I'm running out of one on one time. I'm going to have to either I have to charge more for my one on one time. What am I going to do about this? You know, asking all of those questions to myself, um, so that I can get to this next place without burning myself out, which is really important to me.

Speaker B: That's what I was gonna ask you. I was gonna ask you that next. That was my next question. Because that was one of the things that you said was really important to you because of, you know, that part of why you wanted to go on your own was to have that work life balance.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so that is a big. So you haven't lost sight of that?

Speaker A: I haven't lost sight of that. It's actually one of my KPIs every single month, I reflect against how did I feel delivering all of this work? Where was I on, where was I off? Um, what do I need to adjust? Did I get to go to all of my son's basketball games? Was I home? Um, how much away from home time was there? All of these things are part of my KPIs that I monitor in addition to how much money am I making? Um, of course. And they all make for the business that I am delivering to my clients. And I also think that I can't be great for my clients if I'm not also practicing some of what I coach them through, which is burnout a lot. Like that is a persistent theme. Um, so if I can't figure that out, how can I help them?

Speaker B: So a big part of, a big part of Burden of Resilience, I think, is what you talked about, um, a second ago about being really explicit about who you help on the problem you solve, is when you work with the right clients, they don't take away energy from you. They give you energy. You know, you look forward to working with them. Like, you have, like, these great moments, these breakthroughs, and then, you know, then that gives you the sum of the fuel. The wrong clients, they definitely drain you. I don't know if you're experienced. It's like, for me, it's like, oh, my God, like, this person's on my calendar. Like, this isn't, this is, I know it's going to take a lot of energy, so I have to really, like, I have to go for a walk or I have to, like, I have to do something to build up my resilience because I know this is going to be a difficult coaching session.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that does happen. I, I, I have fantastic clients. And, um, and because they're high performers, all of them are high performers. They, they show up into those sessions with really, really challenging problems. And as a coach, I really need to be able to remove myself from, um, the stress that they have so that I can be fully present and listening and with them. So that is really, really important to the work that I do. So I have to be sure that I'm present and in the moment for them or they're not going to get what they need. And that is so different than the kind of work that I used to do.

Speaker B: What I think is interesting. So. Okay, sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt. Go ahead, finish your thoughts. Okay, you're good. No, no, no, no. I want to hear the rest. I want to hear the rest.

Speaker A: Sorry, I, it it took me a long time to notice how important it was for me to be fully there with them without also taking on their stress.

Speaker B: Yeah. So like, good boundaries from that standpoint is. So it's like, it sounds like there's a lot of, like, habits that you have to protect your energy and to make sure you're doing your best. So it sounds like you have like one habit is making sure that you're on point with who your ideal client is and you're speaking to them so you're talk the right people. Like that sounds to be like one big thing for you. The second is what you just mentioned is keeping your energy, staying present with them, not taking on too much, keeping those boundaries. And then the third is you've mentioned a couple times, it seems like you have these continuous loops of reflection every month. Here's my KPIs. How did I feel? And it feels like the habits that you had during your sabbatical and the habits that you developed even in our work together, around reflection and moving forward, it sounds like that' more like a daily part of your life is. Or daily. Every month like this seems like a monthly habit you have.

Speaker A: Yeah, I have routines in order to maintain momentum. And we happen to be recording this on like the first day of the month, which I'm just going to notice that it's like the first day of the month and it happens to be on a Monday too, which is like a magic thing, you know, for me. I love that. But at the end of the month or first of the month, I really look back at the previous month and ahead at the month that's coming, and I plan that into my schedule. Um, that helps me to refine and reflect against what worked and what didn't. Not just for me personally, but for my clients as well. Who's getting results, who's not getting results, what do I need to do? Um, that has been incredible, um, from the perspective of moving from. So when I started the business, I felt like I was in it, like, hand, you know, rolling my sleeves up. I'm in it with them now I'm more of like air, uh, traffic control or more CEO. Like in my third year, where I feel like I have systems and operations that are moving and I'm using them to move to the next step. Right. Which is like what I did before, but now I'm doing it in a different place.

Speaker B: I feel like I. I don't want to lose what you just started talking about with your monthly reflections. Because I think a lot of People would be curious and leaning in and say, could you tell me a little bit more before. Before you. I. Cause I definitely want to talk about your CEO mindset of where you are at year three, but before we leave that, can you share in a way that other people can sort of follow? What you do is what. How did you identify the KPIs that were really important outside of obviously money? Um, and then, like, what are your habits of, like, how you reflect on it and how do you use the data? Like, could you describe a little bit more in a way, kind of like, be a coach to my audience and say, yeah, here's what I do that could work for you.

Speaker A: At the end of every single week, I reflect on the week and I reflect into, uh, a spreadsheet, which is my preferred tool. And it has specific columns that measure what I need to measure. As an example, how many coaching hours did I deliver? How many? Um, uh, my coach. I have a coach who, um, calls them PBJ meetings, peanut butter and jelly meetings, which is like meetings that you have that are just relational in order to develop business or make new connections. How many of those did I have? Um, did I get to the gym? Because that's one of my KPIs. Did I walk all of the steps that I was going to walk? Did I, um, listen to my favorite podcasts? Did I cook all of the meals that I wanted to cook? Did I get to spend time with my husband and son? Like, these are the things that I measure how much money came in and how much money went out. Every single week. Every single week. And. And then at the end of the month, hold on. I do a whole roll up.

Speaker B: Hold on, hold on. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta double check on this one. Okay, so it sounds like when you have your KPIs, like, I think most people would not be thinking about my gym, how much time I spent, and like, they're like some of these other things, like, they might think about how many leads that I nurture. You have everything in there that makes you feel like you. Like, these are the things. It's almost like you did an evaluation a long time ago saying, here's the things I need to have in my life so I could be in my best self. And this is in your spreadsheet. And to be the best self and my best business owner. All of it's in the spreadsheet.

Speaker A: Yeah. Because I'm not my best business owner if my self parts aren't optimized.

Speaker B: So it sounds like from an action item then is it sounds like people need to take a beat and evaluate, uh, like, what do I need to have in my life to be my best self and to be the best business owner? So there's clearly, you have stuff in there, coaching hours, revenue in, revenue out, the PB&J meetings that is going to nurture future business. There's all of those pieces and then there's the pieces as it relates to your health and your own well being, which relates to your steps. You're going to the gym, spending time with your husband, spending time with your son. And it sounds like for you, um, cooking. It sounds like for you, these are equally important. Like, it doesn't sound like you are prioritizing one over the other. These are equally important to you.

Speaker A: I. Yes. I mean, I think the investment that I make in my own self care is what makes all the other stuff happen.

Speaker B: Right. So.

Speaker A: Yes. Yes, Betsy, it's true. Yeah. And I'm not. I don't want anybody who's listening.

Speaker B: This is amazing. You need to write this down. This is so good.

Speaker A: Because this is.

Speaker B: Because this is a really important thing I think for business owners is we can do this. And this is what you started out to do, is you wanted to have this balance and you did it, and now you're okay. So every week you evaluate in your spreadsheet. How did I do? And then is it. And then what do you do at the end of the month or at the beginning of the month?

Speaker A: At the end of the month, I roll up the weeklies into a monthly and it's a. It's like a different spreadsheet. And now I have the whole year lookout. And because now I have my, um, I'm on my third year, I can look back at last year to say, oh, how is it different than last year? And I do that about quarterly. I do the reflect back quarterly because I have enough data now. Um, and I notice what's on or what's off monthly. So, um, I'll notice if I didn't one of the. I. I'll tell you what, the biggest thing that's off because this is kind of funny, is because of who I am, I forget to take days off. Like, I don't. When you're your own business, you don't like, plan pto. Like, you're not like, yeah, oh, I'm gonna take Thursday off. So I figured that out. And now I actually plan pto. Like, I, I plan time off ahead so that I have space to go have lunch with People who are not in business with me, um, to do things that I enjoy. Not.

Speaker B: Not PPJ people.

Speaker A: Yes. The non work things.

Speaker B: The popcorn.

Speaker A: Because the, the non work related stuff. I think one of the things that I think is really important for me to name here is I didn't know. And Betsy, I wish you had told me because you know this, that when you are owning your own business, that thing doesn't ever sleep.

Speaker B: Nope.

Speaker A: Unlike, uh, my W2 job that was still very intense and busy, I was able to put it to sleep right. Because like, it belonged to someone else. And at the end of the day, someone else was on the hook. If I didn't do my job right, if this thing doesn't work, I'm on the hook. Me. It's hard to put that thing to bed in my mind. So I have to like, plan. I'm not going to look at my laptop. I'm, um, putting it away, like really intentionally shut off the business machine that is my brain.

Speaker B: Yeah. That's the hardest thing of all. Like, I'm in the middle of trying to codify my, my process. You know, I'm working on my scalable system so that I can serve more clients. And so I've been working really hard to create, uh, you know, a more COD program and workbook and all of that. The problem is, is that I go to sleep and I design things in my head and then it's like I wake up. It's like at 3 o' clock in the morning and it's like I'm designing things in my head and it's like, for God's sake, stop. Like, I, I'm, I'm done. It's like it's nighttime. I'm sleeping. Shh.

Speaker A: Shh.

Speaker B: I don't need to figure this out right now.

Speaker A: I, I didn't know that until I knew it. Right. Yeah. So that is something that is really interesting that I'm getting used to because it's all the time thinking about it. It's. I, I feel like it's having like a, a young baby where you're always thinking about it. Right. Um, so that's interesting. But my KPIs help me to put it where it belongs because then I have data that helps me kind of release it. Yeah.

Speaker B: I think that this, it's a good thing though. Like, uh, to me, it's a good sign because like, when I was in the consulting business and I knew I wanted to get out of it and I, it was taking me so long, I wasn't like up at night thinking about my clients because I really was just getting so sick of it. Like, you know, like, but at this point, you know, I'm, I might be up at night because I'm like, I really want to crack the code because I want to help my clients. Like, if I can make this part of the process simpler and get people over the hump, I want to do it. And I think that there's like, I think that you're bringing the right countermeasures to it, because I wouldn't want to take that away, you know, because, uh, I love it so much. You're doing this because you want to stop doing it. Yeah, but you have the countermeasures. Like, this is my day off, so I'm going to deliberately do things to turn my brain off. And maybe it's like I'm listening to my favorite podcast or maybe I'm listening to my favorite music. But what I love about what you have is you're creating these habits of sustainability. Like this is going to be what will sustain your success, is being on point with who you want to help, the problems you want to solve, and keeping that on point, making sure that you are serving clients in the best way possible. That maximizes your time and your income. That's the second part. And then the third part of like making sure that you've got your full, complete KPIs that you are constantly using to uh, evaluate and never losing sight of them. It would be very easy for someone to, at year one or year two to dip out on time at the gym time with, you know, like, I can miss this thing because I'm growing a business. But you put it right there, right at the beginning and you keep evaluating it and you are able to now get the year to year trends. Yeah, that's brilliant.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's been great. It's been.

Speaker B: You should be an executive coach or something because these are like really good tips, you know, I wonder, I wonder if you went in the right direction, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah, I wonder, I wonder if that's my, my, my best fit. I feel totally in purpose.

Speaker B: It's so awesome. Okay, so they, so we have your habits and so now you're at this place in year three where you're looking at yourself as the CEO of your enterprise. What would you say is the difference between somebody who's a, you know, just starting a consulting business to really getting the mindset of a business owner? Like, I'm owning my business, I'm owning my brand. To the CEO of your business. Is there a difference? Like I, you know, like uh, it like seeing somebody like I'm just a freelancer, I'm just, I'm a consultant. I just do the work. I'm a business owner and I'm my own brand and now I'm the CEO. What do you see as the difference in those things? Or do you see the difference maybe? Are they all one and the same?

Speaker A: Uh, I, I'm starting to see the difference more clearly between the systems that keep my business running and me like trying to separate myself from what keeps the business running versus the things that only I can deliver. So that's starting to emerge now in year three, four. And where I'm headed now is to systematize and operationalize some of the deliverables that I don't have to touch myself so that I can be fully present with my favorite clients and doing the work that only I can do, the business development work that uh, I do, the speaking that I do. Like what are the things that no one other than Denise can deliver? So really trying to be clear on that and then trying to find support for the other parts that other people can deliver without me so that I can do more of the revenue generating work. Right. Because when you're in it on your own, you're going to tap out because you run out of time so you can't like make up more time. So you have to systematize things in order to create more revenue. And that's where I am now. I'm scaling. I'm um, like minor scale. Not you know, scale that is defined by me. Yes. Right.

Speaker B: I love that. That's a really important part because I think a lot of people have a view of what I think scale should look like. And scale does not look like the same thing for everybody. Like not everybody wants to have like people would say all the time, like, oh, you should really like get, you know, get like a bunch of other people to deliver your methodology and scale up like. Well, for two reasons. No. 1, I hate leadership, like from that or management. Like, uh, like I like leadership. I obviously I lead all the time. I'm a horrible manager. I'm like managing people underneath me. Like that would just be a recipe for disaster. And second is the magic is not in my process. There's other things that I could do. Like I have my team who does all of the visual branding and uh, the website design and all of that kind of stuff that was part of my scale, but not me doing it this way. I love the direction you're going here is you are scaling up for you. I love this. I love this whole conversation. This is all about like I'm going to customize like tech and thrive for me. Denise, you know what makes sense for me. So the CEO is scaling up for you?

Speaker A: Yeah. It's my business and I get to choose how much it goes and how far it goes and how big it is. Right. So I think a lot of the noise that I experience is people coming at me saying, and you know, just for your audience, I bootstrapped, meaning I don't have any investors. M. I created my business with my own resources and my own resources keep my business going. Right. So right now I'm totally debt free and it matters to me to have a debt free business at this point. But as you scale, you have to decide whether you're going to invite other people to invest, are you going to take others money? Like all of these decisions have to be made. And that's a part that my former role didn't prepare me for. Right. This is new territory for me. This is the part where I'm stretching into a place where I was like, oh, this is new. I never had to do that before. And being really discerning about what am I doing about this. Right. That's really important to me to make sure that I understand how much of the business I own versus if I ever decide to take investors. What does that mean for me? Because I do have investors coming at me because they love my brand. Right. They love that tech and thrive brand. They love that brand and they come to me and they want to invest. But that means that I am giving up. I'm now working for something different than what I said I was going to work for. And I'm not ready yet to do that.

Speaker B: I would have tons of caution on that.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: I've had a. I've had a situation. I had a situation with someone who was doing something like that and that was the worst business decision I have ever made.

Speaker A: Uh, I'm very cautious about that because it looks really shiny to someone who may not know what they're doing. But that's not why I did this.

Speaker B: Also that when it's like your personality and your brand, you're the one who has to deliver. Like that's. And it's like, uh, you can't have somebody take a part like your ip, your personnel. Uh, that's another conversation for another day. We can have that one. I have tons of concerns on that one. But that's Another thing. But you're bringing up an important, but you're bringing up an important part about scale. And I think where a lot of my audience is probably going to struggle is the idea that you have to invest in people in a team. Like you might have to have resources. And how do I make these strategic choices on like, where do I invest? And some people like, I don't need to invest. I got AI now. AI could do my graphic design. I don't need this. AI can do this. And you know, like, where do I, where people? I think m most of my clients would be fine. Like people listening and it's like, yeah, I'll pay for an accountant, you know, and somebody do my taxes, like that's fine. But other things va, you know, or an assistant or, you know, you have a coach. Like, do I still need a coach? Like some people are like, I already launched, why do I need any additional support? So like how, what would you tell them about like the ongoing investments you need to make in your business, you know, from the start. Most people are not going to start with seed money. So a lot of people aren't going to be more wondering about like, how do I make strategic smart decisions about who to bring in and how to invest M invest in my ongoing business? Like how do you think about that?

Speaker A: Well, um, I think about it. I, I do a lot of um, I love the profit first model. Um, people who are listening could go look that up. But I paid uh, attention to where I had friction, you know, and where I was spending a lot of time that wasn't creating revenue. As an example, you know, if I am the one writing, like if I'm the one spending time going on LinkedIn to schedule my LinkedIn posts, then that's time that I'm not out building relationships or delivering coaching. Right? Someone else can do that for me easily. That's not a high dollar skill, you know. So I outsource that I'm not the one pressing the buttons on uh, what gets posted on LinkedIn, because in my mind that's like a, um, a low skill, deliverable, right? So I match the work that I do to what I, what my natural, like what my top dollar skills are to me. And then I outsource the skills that aren't the ones that are producing the top revenue for me as much as I can affordably. And that has been an evolution. I could do a little bit of it, uh, at the beginning I have been, and I will be very transparent about this, I've invested in Marketing since day one. I invested in Betsy to support me. Marketing is the place where I do not mess around. It doesn't have to be a lot of money, but it is consistent. And it is consistent. Yeah. Because I do not have a marketing background. And I would. I was boiling the ocean. I will boil the ocean 10 times to try to develop marketing strategy. That's not my skill set. So I. I do not try to be the chief marketing officer of my business. Period.

Speaker B: The end.

Speaker A: I.

Speaker B: But what's smart about you is you could have gotten away with networking as your primary because you're so extroverted and you have speaking opportunities. You could have gotten away with it. Uh, you didn't have to invest, but you chose to continue to do that anyway. And I think that's what I think. I wonder if that's the mindset of a CEO, is that I understand all these functions report to me and either I'm going to outsource it and have somebody else do it, or I'm going to do it, but I'm not going to let one of these functions go. You literally could have gotten away with the, uh, networking because you're highly connected, extremely extroverted, great speaker. You could have gotten away with this. But you didn't.

Speaker A: I didn't. And so what people don't know is when you speak or when you're out networking, somebody has to, like, tell the story about what you did if you want to be a thought leader and keep getting invited back because. And that story needs to be told. For me, I tell that story on LinkedIn. And that's fine. That's the only place I tell it. It's fine. You know, and with. With whoever I'm in community with. But imagine, uh, me spending three days on the road to deliver, talking, like speaking engagements at conferences, which I do.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And then having to, while I'm there thinking about what I'm going to be posting on LinkedIn about this and how about all these pictures? Like, that was blowing my mind. I cannot handle that too. You know what I mean? So I have someone who helps me with that who I love and her name is Christine and she's amazing. So I love Yazine, but she helps me with.

Speaker B: But Christine is not taking clients, so we shouldn't. Because, uh. No, no.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I know. She's not.

Speaker B: She's.

Speaker A: She's done.

Speaker B: So she's full. I know. Like, that's the part I'm like, don't tell me that anymore. Because I reached out to Christine. That is an empty spot for me is like, I know I need to do more of that because like, I do so much with my, my podcast and all that kind of stuff. But I think also like, when it comes to outsourcing things, it's like, where's the gap in your marketing? It's like making sure I understand all of these things report to me and I have to do something with it. And then recognizing your own skill sets. Like, I had a VA for a while and they were doing all my graphics and I realized like, like even just doing a PowerPoint, like, to me it was like getting rid of that was not good for me because it was sort of like my meditative break for, uh. Because I like doing graphics. Like, it was fun for me. And it was like I was missing out on that one because it was like. Because some. Because sometimes like, I need a balance in my work, you know, And I think that that's partially where we need to pay attention to, is not to say all of this is lower level. If you love. Like, I just talked to someone on my podcast who loves posting on LinkedIn. They should never outsource that. They love that. That's so much fun for them. It's. It's a way to connect with people. So why would you do that? But for you, it didn't work out like you because you're doing all this other stuff and ah, that's why I love this conversation is like Denise Inc. Like, this is what is very customized to you. Your gift and your strengths and taking responsibility for it.

Speaker A: Yes. And like for me, because you said you're deep, decompressed, so the fun place for you might be graphics or the visual things. For me, like, AI is like my, my drug of choice these days. I love everything about AI and I can get lost. I want to get lost there forever. I love it because there's such a creative space for me because I'm a former techie, so we're opposite.

Speaker B: I feel like it takes away creativity.

Speaker A: I'm not outsourcing the AI stuff because I love that stuff space. So it's tailored to my passions. How can I use AI to. To leverage and, and create better outcomes for my clients, better outcomes for my business? I'm totally there. Right.

Speaker B: That is so funny because, like, I really can't stand AI and I feel like it's robbing me of my creativity and all of my writing skills. So it's like everybody's different and I think that. And it's. It's like, I think that's really, the message here is really, at the end of the day, I don't use AI that's right.

Speaker A: I use it to solve like, complex problems.

Speaker B: But like, the, the point isn't around, like, is a good or bad in this conversation. We could have another one where you and I could duke it out. But the, um, but the real issue here is not really about that, is that if you are going to create a sustainably profitable business, it really needs to be custom design to your strengths. What you love to do, who you're motivated to help, what's important to you, and making sure that you are just vigilant and vigilant about it. Like, you're really intentional and you're vigilant about it. And it's like, I'm going to make this business work for me on my terms. Like, if you're going to have success on your own terms and you really got to take yourself seriously and make it on your terms.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Like, why would I create a business

Speaker B: where I work with people who I

Speaker A: don't enjoy working with? That sounds, uh, terrible.

Speaker B: And, and doing things that you don't enjoy doing, like things that don't light

Speaker A: you up and they don't like to do. Yeah, I mean, I do plenty of things that I. There's plenty of chugga chugga things that have to happen in a business that I do. And I'm not going to discount that. There are certain things that you have to do. You just have to do it, especially when you're at the beginning. But as you gain momentum, there are some things that you can outsource. And if it's something that you hate, like, maybe start there.

Speaker B: But the. I think that this is like the, the whole thing is like the. And it's always a fascinating, a fascinating experience that I have when I get. Take people through the whole listen to your life thing. And it's like, I feel like I'm on this wrestling match where I'm like, okay, you can make money off of what you love and you can really, like, focus on who you love. And it's like, no, we can't really do that. I'm like, why will we go through this effort? Like, I literally don't understand why somebody would like, leave a corporate job with a high profile role where you're having like, these perks and the status, and then you're gonna go and do like a, uh, a career that like, you're gonna recreate your career in your business, the one that you long outgrew. And you're gonna be making a fraction of the money with tons of hustle and without like that, that clarity, because you have to go through what you said initially is you have to deal with a little bit of that fear of the unknown. You know, you have to kind of address that fear of the unknown. So you can have all these perks and bunnies, but you won't really, you won't get it unless you really are thoughtful and intentional about like who you are and what you want. And that is what you did.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean understanding who you are and what you want is like step one. Yes.

Speaker B: And you might not know instantly everything.

Speaker A: No, no. I'm m still learning about myself. It's, it's a journey and I know that the journey is the destination now. So it's less uh, fear filled. Right. Because the journey is the thing. Like this is the way toward the goal. Right. And yeah, it's, it's been amazing.

Speaker B: Do you have um, documented somewhere like on your blog or something that we can link to around your monthly and quarterly evaluation process?

Speaker A: I talk to my clients a lot about the 515, which is the tool that I use and I give them as a resource and it's the weekly check in. Um, so I may have talked about that on the blog, but that's a good idea. And maybe I'll take some uh, dig. Dig into that routine of the discipline of reflection which is what we're talking about here. The, the discipline of reflection. But the 515 tool is something that I can share with you, Betsy, that you can share with your audience if they, they're interested in using it, that would be fantastic.

Speaker B: So maybe if like you can get um, either provided or if it's on your website, you know, then that would be a way that also gets my listeners to go visit your website as well. You know, like a check. Yeah.

Speaker A: And yeah, that sounds fun. I'll pull together for you.

Speaker B: So is there anything else that you want to share about what it, what your success has been like post launch or the branding process that got you clarity or what your secrets to sustainable success and I'm just not asking you the right question.

Speaker A: You know, I think that inevitably when you align yourself with people who are experts at what they do and you put yourself into, in community with people who um, are wise in ways that you're not yet wise, success is greater. It's when you're not asking for help and you're trying to do everything on your own, that overwhelm comes And I knew that from the start that I needed to create my personal board of directors. I talk about this a lot with my clients. It's part of my operating system. Like, who is. Who are your personal board of directors that you need alongside you so that you can succeed? Right. And if you don't have that, it's going to be a lonely road.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Even if you're not an extrovert, you still need those people who are expert in the way that you're not. And if you're the person out there who's an expert at everything, then, you

Speaker B: know, go do it.

Speaker A: And you, you know, I wish you great success, but I haven't met a lot of those.

Speaker B: You know, I haven't met any. I don't think. I don't think the universe is designed that way. I think we're designed with our own unique gifts, because I think we're supposed to partner with one another. I think we're supposed to be interdependent.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that interdependence, I think, is what has made me successful up to this point, is that I do pull in people who I respect, who have expertise, who can help me get to the next place, and I'm willing to pay for it if it requires an investment. Um, I think that, uh, I get a lot of requests for, oh, I'd like to pick your brain. I was like, okay, I'm happy to mentor people, but I am also totally honest about, Like, I didn't do this by myself. I had a whole bunch of people who helped me. Betsy helped me. Christine helped me. Pam is helping me. Like, there are people who are helping me here. It's like a cheerleading squad back here. Right. And I'd be a fool to say I did this all by myself, because I didn't. I deliver what I say I'm going to deliver. But there's a whole bunch of people back here who are helping me do it.

Speaker B: And I think that we are mistaken if we think that even in our previous career, you know, we got to that point. Like, one of the things that was important for me coming out of sabbatical was to honor a lot of the people who were really important influences that helped me, not even from the business standpoint, but helped me become the consultant I became. You know, like, there's, like, there's a. There's a whole string of people that we've always had. And I think when we get on our own, we have this. I should already know how to do this myth where we don't think that I should surround myself with the same kind of surrounding that you had when you were in corporate. There's this really weird myth. You were never alone in corporate. In your other job, you had so much support, you don't even realize. And then we get on our own and we think we should be these mavericks, you know, like, and I should know everything. I'm like, well, why should you know everything? You know, why should you know? Have you, have you run built your own brand before? You know, have you done this marketing? You haven't. So why would you waste time trying to figure it out on your own? Uh, if it's not your thing? Like, that doesn't even. It's not logical. But there. But it is safe. You know, it's safer in a way where if I. Because otherwise you have to face the I should already know how to do this myth.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, and, and you do have to have financial sustainability and security to do this. So, you know, if you don't have a, uh, cushion to help you feel comfortable while you transition into this new place, it's gonna be difficult, like unnecessary. Like, really, really hard. So you've got to protect, like, get your financial house in order. If you are really serious about this.

Speaker B: Because I'll tell you though, like, with my story, it's just where it's like I. Sometimes I kind of wonder about it. I started my business in 2010. I had just come off of a divorce. I had no money in the bank. Like, I. That divorce like just decimated me. And I had like $200 in the bank, but my grandmother had passed inside a little bit of an inheritance. And I could either like feed the babies for a couple months or I could put it into my business. And I chose to put it into m. My business. And I got paid back like, like immediately. And then some, like, everything was off to the races. I feel like if you are going down a path that you're meant to go down, the universe will conspire to support you. You know, and if you are, you know, and if you're paying plank small, then that's what you're going to get rewarded with. You're going to. If you were going to, let's say you were at this in between place and you decided, I think I want to open a heart dog cart. You wouldn't think, you know what, I'm just going to get a few hot dogs and stand on a street corner and just start selling them. Like you would pay for a hot dog cart. You would pay for the whole kit and caboodle, you would do what you need to do. But the return on investment on a hot dog car is nothing compared to the return on investment for a business like ours. You know, it's like we are business owners. So I would go back to like the whole CEO mindset. You have to spend money to make money. That is the nature of a business. And that is the rule of money. That is the rule of the universe.

Speaker A: You have to spend money to make money. So if you don't have like, you got to figure that out, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. And I would say put it on a credit card if you need to. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, in my first year I made, I, I created the money I needed for my business. Like literally worked for it and it, it happened.

Speaker B: You have so much wisdom. Um, this has been such a great conversation. I wish we can continue going on and on and on, um, with that. Um, but I feel like the bottom line is also going back to what we said at the beginning part is like trusting yourself and trusting your skill sets. Like if you are a high achiever before, you're a high achiever now, and you need to apply that mindset to your business. You know that you can't all sudden like leave a corporate job and be a chief executive and then like walk out into a business and not act like a chief executive. Like you still have to, you still have to act. You still have to just be you. And that is a big part of it. Mhm.

Speaker A: Yep. Absolutely.

Speaker B: Such a great conversation. I don't even know where. I don't even know how to end this because I don't want to end it. But if, um, for those who are listening, please check out Denise's website. Please provide the URL. Is it techandthrive.com or is it.

Speaker A: Yes, techandthrive.com is they Denise Muscle White dot com. We do it that way.

Speaker B: I talk to you, get there however you want.

Speaker A: But uh, and I'll share with Betsy's, uh, audience, my 5:15, um, so that you all have access to that. I'll pull that together and get it to Betsy for the podcast. Awesome.

Speaker B: Ah, thank you. And please, um, definitely, if you want to hear more awesome. Like where are they now? Stories like from Denise with other clients that I work with. Please hit subscribe now so you get to continue on with the series and of course, if you enjoyed the show. Um, also I would love for you to rate and review it so more people will find the show. And until next time, thank you. All so much for listening, and thank you, Denise. This is an amazing conversation.

Speaker A: It's always fun to talk to you, Betsy.