What it Really Means To Be On-Purpose with Kevin McCarthy (Ep166)

Speaker A: Well, hey there, and welcome, everyone, to this week's Consulting Matters podcast episode. I am your host, Betsy Jordan, and today we are getting into a very important topic that is near and dear to my heart, and I know your heart, which is all about purpose. And what does it mean to be on purpose or purpose driven or aligned with purpose? We're going to unpack all of what that means with my guest, Kevin McCarthy, who actually is the author on the topic. He's the one who first initially wrote about On Purpose, so I brought him on the show to help us get clarity on, um, what does it mean to live out our purpose at work or in our lives? And how do we really organize our businesses around our purpose and experience the joy of being on purpose in our lives and our careers? Without further ado, welcome to the show, Kevin.

Speaker B: Well, it's great to be with you because I know you're quite the expert yourself in the whole area of purpose, so it's sort of fun to be with a kindred spirit.

Speaker A: Well, I didn't realize that you actually influenced a lot of my understanding about purpose. So you and I actually ran into each other, so we're in similar circles. So we're both in Orlando. We're both part of the Greater Orlando Organization Development Network. And I was, like, thinking about, like, oh, uh, maybe I'll do something on. On purpose. And you and I. I was chatting with you, and you're like, oh, I wrote the book on that. I'm like, that is so interesting. So go into my computer and I go through all my annals of things. I'm like, hey, back, like, in 2007, you know, when I was thinking about starting my business, I. I think I actually worked with your company on uncovering that, and I think that's where I. You actually dropped the seed of what on purpose was in my brain accidentally. So, like, this is a lovely full circle moment where I get to bring you on the show and acknowledge the role that you've had in my life accidentally, from afar. So, yay. I'm so glad you're here.

Speaker B: Thank you. It's just sort of the, uh, the ripple effects, if you will, of that was Mary Tomlinson, that probably that worked with you. And Mary's a former Disney executive, and we've been together now since about 20, I think about 2000, actually. Mary and I first connected up and have been partners ever since. Business partners, I should say. We're both happily married to different people in today's world. You have to clarify those things.

Speaker A: That's True. You do. What. What I love about the phrase on purpose and why I resonate with it and I like using it is I like the double entendre about it. It's. It means, like, I'm on purpose, like, meaning I'm in alignment with my purpose and I am, um, doing this on purpose, like with intentionality. And I think I use that phraseology a lot with my clients because I think a lot of consultants and coaches, like, we just sort of like, accidentally fall into businesses and we're not really intentional, and we don't organize our businesses around our purpose. We just sort of like, recreate our career in our business. I don't know if that's when you came up with the on purpose. Do you share that definition or is that like, is that just the way I saw it as a double entendrex?

Speaker B: No, I mean, the reason, um, when we write out on purpose, I always have a hyphen between on and purpose. Some of our websites, we don't. Uh, and the reason being is that hyphen is to show the alignment. So it is first saying, do you know your purpose? And then are you choosing to be in. Aligned with it? So that has that intentionality to it. Now, when I started off in the late 80s talking about purpose and being on purpose, back then most people used it in the negative, if you will. It would be, uh, I spilled my milk and I didn't do it on purpose or I ran into your car. I'm sorry, I didn't do it on purpose. It was always sort of as an excuse or a rationale where I looked at it and said, well, what if we were to turn that around and say, what if I'm actually by design working to know my purpose and to give it expression and to be on my purpose? Uh, so that was really the core messaging of it. And then the intentionality and all the other things that come along with it are also, uh, more naturally attributed because that's the way people typically use it in the common day language.

Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't really think about the negative, but it's almost like the way people say, it's like, it's not on purpose. Oh, my bad. You know, like, my bad. Instead of like, no, my good. I'm doing this on purpose. Like, this is my intention. Okay, so if you talk to two consultants, you're going to get, you know, three definitions around what purpose is, you know, like, and if I add coaches into the mix, I'll probably get like 10 definitions of what a, uh, purpose Means So from your perspective, like what is purpose? You know, and how did you become interested in studying purpose as a field? Like, so how did you become an expert in this? And what is your definition of purpose, the word not on purpose that we just described, but the essence of the word purpose?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, the way I got interested in it, let me answer that first, is, um, in the mid-80s I went through a really severe business divorce. And um, with a business partner that I had. And um, through the process of that, I then launched another new business as a real estate advisor. Um, and in the course of working with business owners, primarily mid to small business owners, on their real estate needs, I began to recognize that they had to do their real estate needs. I needed to understand their business. Many of them didn't have business planning and the reason they didn't have business planning because they didn't do life planning. Um, and so as I started to migrate more deeply into how do I best serve my clients? One of the things I noticed was there was in the 80s a lot of people were talking about mission statements, but mission statements didn't hit it. Um, and so uh, I began to dig deeper into it. I noticed that what I thought was missing was purpose. Uh, it was just sort of as I'm a strategy guy by design is really the way I tend to think of things strategically. And so uh, in looking at it, I looked at the words purpose, vision, mission and values way back then and I said, you know, each one of these is different. They're all related, but they're different. And so um, I began to then and I saw that as a major source of deep confusion in businesses. And if we could get clarity around purpose, vision, mission and values, then we could move forward. So that's part of it now. Purpose. Uh, I'll sort of COVID purpose, vision, mission and values because I think it's really important. Um, purpose is a matter of the heart. It's answering this question, why do I exist? Vision is in the mind's eye. If you close your mind and you imagine where you're going to be, it's future oriented. Missions are the hands and feet and um, it's the day to day activity that we're about. So if you're a lawyer, you're lawyering, but your vision may be to be a judge or a senator or that may be a professional vision that you have. Where, um, your missions are, you're doing your job on a day to day basis and then values are in our throat and in our gut. So that when we violate our values, and they are what govern our behaviors. So when we violate our values, we feel it in our gut. Um, we have this sense of, uh, we talk about a gut feel for something, or my instinct is telling me this is wrong. That's your body giving you really indications that something's wrong. Or if somebody asks you to do something that you find distasteful, um, you have a gag response. It's like, uh, geez, I'm not going to take that in. So the ability to tie purpose to the heart, vision to the head, missions to the hands and feet and values to the throat and gut, um, it's actually something that I can take second graders through, um, and they can get it. And I can also try to take CEOs through it. And sometimes they get it because they have their own worldview of what that is, their own sort of definitions of that. So in many cases, this alignment of your heart, your head and your hands within your values is what it means to be on purpose. So, uh, it's a high standard because it demands that you have taken a little bit of time to articulate those things. Not a lot of time necessarily, but a little bit of time to articulate those things and then say, that's the nature of the alignment that I'm attempting to do from a strategic point of view and then give it expression is how you live it out in your

Speaker A: missions, you know, so you could also look at. So first of all, I love what. I love your analogy of like the human body, you know, and aligning it like, sort of like with the chakra systems as well. Like, there's a lot of deep spirituality that you just mentioned. Many bodies, one part or the chakra system, you know, whichever. Whichever religious spiritual tradition you follow, you could probably resonate. But what you're talking also is also you could just say, like, you know, where are we going? You know, know is vision, you know, how are we going to get there? Might be mission, but the. The purpose feels like it's really, um, bringing into focus, like the why are we doing it? You know, and to the what end? You know, like, why is. Why are we going down this path and to what end? Is this going to make some sort of, like, impact or transformation in the world? Like, that's the way I'm hearing it. Does that sound accurate?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so what we have. I created this little guy many years ago called the On Purpose Pal. And you know, it's so that, again, like I said, I can explain this to Second graders. And that has been, uh, uh, that is something I developed, I don't know, 30 years ago. And there are more people that I have shown that to who are business people or strategists that look at it and go, you know what? That makes as much sense as anything I've ever seen because of the simplicity of it. And so, yes, the purpose is answering this question, why am I here? Ah, where am I going? How will I get there? Is the missions. And then values are what's important. Uh, what really matters, if you will, in the course of doing these things, in terms of conduct, how will I conduct myself?

Speaker A: So it's like your ethics, your personal code of ethics is the values.

Speaker B: Correct. And the interesting thing about that is, um, we can also apply the same thing to a corporation or to a team. So a team has a purpose, vision, mission and values. An individual has purpose, vision, mission and values. And when there's congruency or alignment between them, that's where the high energy is. That's the on purpose principle of the purpose of the person aligned with the purpose of the organization. Uh, but again, it asks people to be thoughtful or intentional about, uh, clarifying purpose, vision, mission, values. What I call the deep strategy,

Speaker A: and that was where I was going to go next, is like uncovering, you know, uncovering what your purpose is. But before we get there, I want to clarify one other part of the definition of M purpose. Because I think you and I are in alignment around this part, you know, because it is connected to the word passion. So what I love about you also, you and I have so many mental frameworks. Like, I can't believe you and I have never really connected before because it's like, oh my God, I, I teach this, I do this, this is how I think about it. But like, uh, when I think about strengths and I think you're going to agree with me, which I think is fascinating, because I always thought I'm the weird one who thinks like this, you know, Like, I think like, strengths are. This is what you love. You know, like, this is what I love to do. Like, you could, speaking of fifth graders, like, if I ask a bunch of fifth graders, like, what do you love to do? They'll be like, clamoring like, I love this. I love this. You ask adults, they're like, can you give me an assessment? You know, but, but kids know, like, I love doing this. I've always loved doing this. This is what I. This makes me happy. But passion is different because I experience passion is, passion isn't what you love, it's what you hate. You know, it's where there's some brokenness in the world where you're like, I. Somebody needs to do something about it. And then you hear that little whisper in your voice, you know, that voice in your head that says, I think it's you. And you're like, you know, like that's your passion. Um, do you know, like, I think, I think you and I are in alignment with that. But can you put if. Yes. Can you elaborate and the understanding of even the word passion in that context and how that relates to purpose?

Speaker B: Sure. Well, I mean, actually in the. On purpose person, my first book, I actually talk about passion in the book because I tied back to the religious version, which. Well, actually the archaic word is passion means to suffer. And uh, most people have lost the understanding of the word passion, which. And it comes out of the Passion of Christ, not necessarily the movie that Mel Gibson did, but it does come from that time where Jesus is suffering, where he is, um, betrayed, uh, um, beaten, crucified, crown of thorns. And then, um, that is the Passion. And it's because it is something that he believes in so strongly and wants to overcome the sin of the world, if you will. And in much the same way when we see a sin in the world, we're not the Messiah, but when we see a sin or ah, an offense in the world that so shatters our spirit, um, that we want to do something about it, um, then that's where our passion is often going to lie. Where the other stuff is really entertainment or uh, you know, like I'm a tennis player. I love to play tennis. Am I passionate about tennis? Yes. But am I willing to die for it? No. I mean. Well, actually I probably would. Some of those days I'm out there playing when it's 98 degrees I could die on.

Speaker A: Yeah. You live in Florida, I think.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's right. But you know, you know what I'm saying here. It's just this. Is that, that heartbreak that you feel now the thing that's interesting I find is a lot of people experience that heartbeat and then they back away from it. It's what I call the Moses experience. Mhm. That when God called Moses to lead the Israelites out of Egypt, Moses said, who me? And so what happens is a lot of times we have this calling and then we go, who me? And we begin to stutter in our minds like Moses did in his language, and we back away from it. And so that is, there is a deep Regret that can then start to sink in, uh, until we decide to answer that call. And again, purpose is one of the things that strategically, when you clarify your purpose, your vision, your mission and your values, and then you move towards your passion, that is where your energy is going to explode. You just don't get tired until finally you fall over in bed, exhausted, but delighted by having truly spent yourself, but really invested yourself into the world.

Speaker A: And I think that there's. It's not even just in that spiritual tradition or the Christian spiritual tradition. It's. If you look at the heroic journey that Joseph Campbell captured that is on all the big blockbuster movies, there's always a phase where the hero gets a call to adventure, and then they always refuse the call. So Luke is invited by Obi Wan to say, come learn the ways. The forest Luke. And Luke's like, um, I don't think so. You know, I got, like, these power converters to pick up. You know, like, he's like, no, you mean. But they all, you know, like, they all do it. Harry Potter said no. Like, everybody says no. We all say no at first. Like, I look at the heroic journey as like, you're on this journey for your consulting and coaching, business ownership. And when I work with my clients, and I'm sure when you work with clients who are starting a business, they. They always say no at first, you know, because it's such a big change, you know, and when you're being drawn into this bigger purpose, you know, it can feel very vulnerable. And it's like, well, who me? I just. I, uh, had a conversation with one of my, uh, the clients that I. I worked with for a while, and like, she's had. Went through this, like, total burnout experience. And it's like, so she's really motivated. Like, you can't. She can't not. Not help people avoid burnout because of what she went through. You. You know, like, when I. I tell my clients all the time when we're working through their brand positioning, it's like, you know, you can make your own mistakes. You just can't make mine. Like, I'm going to be animated. Uh, I'm going to be animated. I'm going to be. You know, I have lots of best practices. That was all great. You know, I'll probably be at a five. You know, when I'm sharing my best practices, because they totally work, but they may not work. But when I have, like, the mistakes that I've made, I'm at a 10. I'm like, you know, this Cost me so much money and so much time, so much pain, so much suffering. Please, I have to help you avoid my suffering. And I think that's where passion comes in, is I want to help you. And I think that's where the majority of the time when you're a consultant or coach, your client, the client that you're meant to serve is an earlier version of you. Because we heal ourselves by helping others avoid the suffering that we experience. So I kind of wonder, like, that's the other part of, like, the purpose is like one purpose could be like, all right, this is kind of like I'm drawn because I'm wired in a particular way. And this is one thing, but one of it, the other part could be, is like, I've had this, like, horrible things that happen to me, and I got to make meaning out of this. Otherwise it's just like wasted suffering.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're absolutely right on the money with that. I mean, that's why you see so many people that are counselors, uh, they became counselors or therapists because of their own journey through healing. And I love the words you said, which is, I can't not, not do this. You know, that's kind of where you get to, I mean, with me, uh, when it came to writing the on purpose person and the on purpose business person, and the whole essence of this is, you know, I had gone through, ah, as I said, a bad business divorce. And I was deeply looking at it and saying, how did I get myself into this? Why did it happen to me? Um, and I noticed things in the business world, but really more importantly, I noticed things in my own life that were out of order. And as a result, I looked at it and saw, uh, started looking around, I saw a lot of other people's whose lives were out of order and said, how do I create order out of this chaos? And then from that order, how do I get focused and then how do I build out so that I am on my purpose rather than off my purpose. Now, as I said, it is a high standard. And it's kind of funny. Years ago, um, a woman, uh, no, I'm sorry, a man had read the on purpose person and didn't realize my wife was married to me. And he was talking about the book. And my wife said, oh, my husband wrote that book. And he goes, oh, I'd love to meet him, but he's probably such a type A behavior, he would never have any time for me. She said, no, he's not a type A behavior. He's Actually pretty laid back. Um, I'd be happy to introduce you and you guys can have a conversation. And so it's, you know, I have been able to build my life in such a way where I'm extraordinarily focused, and yet I have a lot of free time because I like to create. I like to be available for people. M. If they want to be on purpose, if they want to just, I don't know, go to a bar and drink, I'm not the guy. Um, first of all, I don't drink, but second of all, I just don't want to hang out like that. I want to have meaningful conversation. Um, although I do enjoy my tennis buddies afterwards. We sit around and we shoot the breeze and do all that. Um, but that, to me, is part of my recreational time and it's part of my social time. So I have allocated that in my mind to those things. But it's still very intentional what I'm doing in that regard, even though it may not look like it, but, you

Speaker A: know, if somebody has the whole idea of, like, I wonder what I'm made for, you know, like that, and they're asking that question, you couldn't not answer it. Like, even if it didn't. Even if you didn't get paid, you, like, if it wasn't a paid engagement, you couldn't not answer that question. Like, it's like, I. I'm so sorry. I have to. I have to jump in here. Like, that seems to be where you might be.

Speaker B: Well, the first thing I would do is I'd say, are you open to some coaching? Uh, are you open to a conversation about that? And then they would say, hopefully, yes. It's amazing. Some people say, no, I'm just whining. Uh, I mean, I say that that's my interpretation of it. But to some extent, if they give you permission to basically do some coaching with them, then at that point, I begin to ask a lot of questions. In the meantime, my brain is processing because I've got all this experience and tools of having worked with people and now having an online tool that helps people clarify their purpose. Um, all these things are just sort of embedded in me now where I can just start to ask questions and pull out and find out, and I talk about what are they passionate about? Um, tell me their best experiences, tell me their worst experiences, tell me what sort of work they do. Because a lot of times I find I can reverse engineer because so many people's identities are tied up in their work as opposed to their purpose. Um, that we can reverse engineer back to their purpose and then expand it to the rest of their life. Um, so it's just sort of a fun thing that I do on a, uh, pretty regular basis, actually, with people.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I did one of your assessments beforehand to get to the two words on purpose, and I've been meditating a lot on it since we came up with it. I think mine was awakening. Worth was the one that, um, that came up, and I thought it was just so interesting. So, like, in terms of, like, Christmas songs, like, there's, like, I always love oh, Holy Night. Like, my favorite line that makes me cry literally all the time is, like, where it. You know, and he appeared and the soul felt its worth. And it's like, that word worth is so important, you know? And I used to have my podcast. It used to be called Enough Already. Because I wanted people to feel worth. And if I picture, like, who I am, like, in my core, like, the essence of me, there's this picture. I've had it on my website, and you probably could find it somewhere on, uh, you know, in videos and old things that I've done. But when I was, like, eight, we went to Disney, and my mother was somebody who always made us, uh. She's, like, obsessed with pictures. We always had to take pictures with all the characters. And there's this one perfect picture where there's poo, you know, in the middle, you know, and it was in the olden days where, like, the netting was in the honey pot on his head. And I have my three siblings on the other side, and they're all, like, smiling dutifully for the camera. And then there's me on the other side, like, standing on my tippy toes, because I wanted to see inside Pooh's head, you know? Like, I wanted to see what was inside, you know, and it's like, I have an ice cream cone on my hand, and, like, the ice cream's falling all over the place. I'm like, I don't care. I had to see the poo. And that literally happened with every single character. Like, I would always go up to the characters and see what's inside. I'm like, that's what I do all day long. Every single day is like, I dig into people and I pull it out, and it's like, I package it, and it's like, see, you know, you're gonna own your worth. You know, you're gonna own your value. Like, I say that all the time is like, you're gonna own the Power of what you do and position yourself to the clients and the impact. I'm like, oh, awakening. Ah, worth. Like, it's not like, like that is what it is. And it's everywhere and I just find it fascinating. It's like after I've. I'm. I've taken that assessment and I thought about it, I'm like, wow, that is so weird. Like everywhere. And it drives me because, like, I always felt like an invisible child. Like, and that's like, I want other people to feel visible. I want to see what they're like. I. And it's like, so when people's websites launch, I'm like, I'm the happiest person of all. I'm like, I made that person visible. Like, I have a couple websites that came out last week. I'm like, I. I made that person visible in the world. Like, their worth.

Speaker B: That's awesome.

Speaker A: Was visible. Like, and that. So I'm like, how did you come up with that assessment? Like, first off, I'd love to hear your reflections. Like, am I interpreting your assessment correctly in terms of the results? And I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you came up with this assessment and how you use it with your clients.

Speaker B: Sure. You're doing a great job with it. I mean, you really are, because what you're describing. And again, this goes back to sort of the passion piece, which is, I say that purpose statements are two edged swords and it depends on where you catch somebody in their life. Some people haven't had that sort of tough shift that has caused them to go deep and down and then have to come back out. Um, now we all have these little ones. You know, somebody in high school, somebody breaks up with you and it feels devastating. And. But I'm talking about those really deep ones that are out there.

Speaker A: The dark night of the soul. Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. And so what you're describing is, you know, you said, when I was a little girl, I didn't feel seen, therefore I didn't feel I had worth. And isn't it interesting today, as a more mature woman, you are about helping people not feel unseen. You want their worth to be known and to be felt. And so it has informed you professionally. It has likely also scarred you when you were younger. And chances are we never really fully recover. The scars are always there as a little reminder or we're apt to be sensitive to that. And my two word purpose statement, and by the way, I should say that the structure of a two word purpose statement is it has a beginning that says I exist to serve by and it's awakening worth. And then there's a three way test for it. First of all, uh, what happens is most people go to the outer expression of it, their awakening worth in others. But that's the third piece. The second piece is I'm awakening worth in myself. So at some level, what strategies do you have in place to make sure that your worth is always being awakened? And you can look at it and say, well, it may be a meditation that I do or a prayer that I do, or a devotional ah that I do or something that my routine that awakens my worth on a daily basis. Do I have something like that? And then um, you're doing that for yourself. But then there's also God, however somebody chooses to define that. Uh, I come from a Judeo Christian perspective. But if somebody is Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or whatever, one of the other major religions or new age, and they recognize that there's something bigger than them, we'll call that God. That, that God is basically attempting to awaken your worth. So at some level, whether it's these walks on the beaches that make us come alive, or a uh, walk, a hike in the mountains or wherever it may be that you sort of commune, that's that peace that you're feeding into your soul because it's feeding into you. You're receiving it, accepting it, and then you can give it out to others. It's this co creative process that we are in that is so vital to the on purpose process.

Speaker A: And that's uh, so interesting because like I feel like that my work is different. Like before learning how to awaken the worth and because I still feel like my mission was always the same, like making people visible was always there. But it's like as I've gone through a lot of like transformation especially in the last few years, like I feel like there's a different level. And it's like either I have like clients who love me or hate me, you know, because it's like I'm gonna awaken the worth. But if you're not ready, you're gonna hate me and you're gonna resist it, you know, like, even if you like me as a human, you're like, the work itself is like, you know, it's gonna be very challenging. And I think that that is an important part, is that your true purpose has to be like both in like you have to receive for yourself, to authentically give to others. But the seeds might be there just might, you know, might be Wonky. And I think that you're right about the, um, the scars never being there. Like, I hate, of all the TV shows in the world that drives me the most crazy is Three's Company always made me mad. And it was like I. Because I hate it because of the misunderstandings. Like anybody who knows me is if there's a TV show and the main plot point is a misunderstanding, like the people who know me well would say, okay, I just need to warn you that this is coming up. It's, uh, a misunderstanding. And it's like, I hate misunderstandings. I hate being misunderstood. I'll over explain myself. Because I hate, hate, hate being misunderstood. So if passion isn't what? If passion isn't what you love, but what you hate. I hate that. I hate when people play small. I hate when I play small. Like I hate this misunderstanding. Like that's not, uh, authentic. And I hate misunderstanding so much.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's fascinating because what you're describing is underneath that hating, being misunderstood is probably a feeling of you're not grasping the worth of what I'm either saying sharing with you, or you're not grasping the worth of who I am. And that misunderstanding, it's, it's a, that's a real frustration. I get it. I mean, I have, uh, I, uh, tend to have a lot of frustration around that because I've been doing this work now since the late 80s and when I started, nobody was talking about, there were very few people talking about purpose. I think I was the only one talking about it in the way that I was doing it. Um, and today, now everybody and their brother's talking about purpose. And to me it's so frustrating because it's so misunderstood. And as I said, purpose, vision, mission and values are often used synonymously. And it's just so dangerous because it is this deep strategy. And if, if you are confused deeply, then you're going to be misunderstood.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And you're going to be frustrated. And even if you know it really well, you're still going to be misunderstood and still be frustrated. There's a certain but. But it's less so. And actually what's interesting about it is I actually tell a lot of my clients, when you're doing your purpose, vision, mission and values, make sure that either the words forgiveness or grace are values for you because what you're going to find is your tolerance for off purpose is going to raise so that best friend of yours from college who calls you and wants to go do something crazy and stupid. Like you did when you were 18 or 19. Now you look at it and say, grow up. You're just not tolerant of it because you recognize it's off purpose. It was fun back then, but today it's not what we do as adults. And so your tolerance for it has gotten very low. Therefore, if you don't have grace or forgiveness as a value, um, you become kind of a pain in the ass. You know, it's just.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, and uh, you know, because it's like people think you're stuck up or whatever's going on. In fact, you have to learn to give people grace for where they are in their time. Um, so the second part to your question, and I'll do it really quickly, is, uh, how I came about with this was first of all, I looked at the purpose was missing. Then I said, what is purpose? Then I define purpose. Then I said, how do I clarify? How do I help people find their purpose? Um, I originally set up the idea of I exist to serve by. And the two words, liberating greatness or awakening worth or igniting joy are examples of that. And I found that what happened is a lot of people, whenever I first started this, they said, oh, my purpose is to make a difference. And I said, well, that's not true, but we are to serve. If you're a Christian, you're to glorify God. Um, so I took these generic starts and I said, how do we use that as the beginning of setting up something? And then, um, the two word purpose statement of awakening worth. Awakening is something that is in your past, your present and your future and you can carry it into eternity. So if it was awakened worth, you could do it one time and you're done. Awakening is an ongoing experience and you are constantly throughout till the day you die, you will be awakening worth. And that means that, uh, you know, it's just going to happen. It's just continually going to be happening. You're going to constantly being refreshed or reminded. Or if you feel like your worth is not being awakened, you're going to feel that. And now you have the ability because of two words. It's very memorable. You can go back and say, oh, um, I need to get reinvigorated here. I mean, one of the things I talk about in the on purpose person is it's uh, this light switch, uh, we're on or we're off our purpose. And so I like to tell people, pretend you've got a light switch on your chest, which is where your purpose is. Your heart. And if your light switch is off, down, you want to be around people who help you turn it on, or to understand why I'm feeling blue or down or depressed or whatever it may be. How do I get my light switch turned back on? Um, that is a matter of surrounding yourself with people who care about, care, love about you, or are just willing to help turn your light switch back on, uh, or how to do it for yourself. So I want people to learn how to turn that light switch on for themselves. But also some of that is just to reach out and say, you know, hey, girlfriend, I need to talk. Um, and you go out and you talk to your girlfriend. Um, type of stuff.

Speaker A: Is that how you picture us women saying it? Like, girlfriend, I need to talk. Is that how you visualize? Or you might call up your friends and say, dude, I need to talk to you.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, the guys don't do that very often. The guys.

Speaker A: I don't know, girlfriend, I need to talk.

Speaker B: Right? I know. I hear it from girls all the time. I mean, from women, I should say. But I mean, but they do say, hey, girlfriend, I need to talk. I hear my wife or I hear other women. I know, doing that, that. But yeah, um, it's just knowing who you can go to. Who's your. So in other words, I say there's more Light Switch Turner offers in the world than there are Light Switch Turner honors. And so you want to surround yourself, know who your Light Switch Turner honors are.

Speaker A: And I wonder if, like we talk about like the suffering, you know, the passion of the Christ is suffering and the word passion is. And I wonder if that's like where the deepest wounds that we've had is almost like the universe forcing us to turn the light switch on. Like that thematically, we're going to be dealing with issues that relate to our purpose and to refine it. And so that's going to be like, thematically what we're dealing with. Like, that's going to be like the life, suffering, whatever. The dark night of the soul that we wind up in might have something to do with it. Um, I need to ask you though, what your two words were. So I. Because, Because I need to be able to ask you specifically about this. We don't want to talk about me the whole time. And my purpose. What's your two words?

Speaker B: Well, my two word purpose statements are being on purpose. And again, on. And purpose with a hyphen creates one word. So being on purpose. Now, we do actually have a two word process of lighting the way.

Speaker A: Is that in the state? Is that in the assessment? Do you have being on purpose in the assessment? Is that an option?

Speaker B: I don't know. We actually don't have that in the assessment.

Speaker A: Um, okay, so what's the two words in the assessment? I'm going to challenge you for your own process.

Speaker B: Oh, for my own process. Uh, whenever I go through the process, I usually end up with liberating greatness.

Speaker A: Okay, how do you see.

Speaker B: I just run through it.

Speaker A: How do you see liberating greatness thematically in other parts of your life?

Speaker B: Um, well, I mean, it's the sort of thing where, uh, my books, my, uh. Uh, I mean, I'll just say in my marriage, even, uh, with my wife. My wife had a stroke about two and a half years ago. Not real bad.

Speaker A: Sorry.

Speaker B: But, you know, so now when we go out for walking the dog or something, she's on my arm, uh, so she doesn't trip or I hold her hand. You know, it's funny, people see these older couples walking in, holding hand in hand, and they think, oh, that's so cute. They're so in love after all those years. No, he or she is just helping the other one across the street because they're at risk of falling. That's not to say that the love isn't there. Um, but don't always interpret it as, oh, that's so sweet. Uh, there's a lot of practicality going on there. Um, uh, you know, I've sort of stepped up and done more things around the house so that she. She can. So her greatness, she's not drained. And her greatness can exist as a way of looking at it, certainly from a professional point of view. The work that I've been doing for these now 35 years of helping individuals and organizations be on purpose is really trying to find out, where are they great. Uh, the subtitle to the on purpose business person is doing more of what you do best, more profitably. Profit in that sense means to add value. Not just the financial sense, but to add value to make a difference or to make the world a better place. Um, so these are some of the ways that I am attempting to liberate greatness in the marketplace. Because I do see a lot of people sort of in a prison of their own making. Um, or they feel trapped in a job or in a marriage or in, um, a situation, and they don't know how to get out. And so this idea of how do we liberate them in order to then free their greatness uh, so that's an

Speaker A: interesting word picture the word liberate. The word liberate does create that image of like, somebody's in a trap. Like, they're either in slavery or they're in a cage of some kind. And liberating is like, you're gonna, um, get a key to unlock whatever that cage is, and then the greatness comes out. So it's like really is liberating that's an important word?

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. It's a great word. I mean, so that's. That's the one that tends to come for me. Although

Speaker A: you're. You're a word like me. You do etymology. Like, did you. Like. I do a lot of my writing is like, I love etymology of words. Like, it feels like you and I are the same in. In that way. Another one of the thousand other things that you and I do exactly the same, ironically, is. Is that being a word geek here? Because that is. I want to sit with that image for just a minute before you move off of it. Liberate. I. I love the idea. So it's like in. Especially when you think about, like, what you're doing. So tell me a picture about, like, you work with a lot of consultants and at the good network, I know you also mentor people around books on the side. You know, when you're like, I know you probably do stuff with business people, but my audience of who people are listening are consultants and coaches. Like, what kinds of cages do you see consultants and coaches find themselves in that you want to liberate them from the aspiring authors, the new consultants and coaches. Like the, you know, the people who are trying to really build a practice, you know, what do you feel like are the cages that you can liberate them from?

Speaker B: Well, one of the. One of the biggest cages that I see consistently is hourly billing. Uh, they want to trade their time for, um, you know, that's. It's. Hourly billing is a, um, it's a way to start. Don't get me wrong, but it's not a way to get well paid. Um, because they haven't really understand, to your point almost or to your purpose statement, their worth has not been awakened. Um, and so they have not done what you help people do so well, which is define their positioning. Look what's happening. And in the on purpose business person, I talk about something called customer confluence. And customer confluence is when, uh, the best example I can give is, think about it. If somebody is a mom and they have a child who has this undiagnosed disease, and they're struggling, and they go from doctor to doctor to doctor to doctor. And finally, you get to one doctor that says, ah, uh, I see exactly what's going on. Here's the diagnosis. The value of that doctor to you is here where the rest of them are here. And so that customer confluence is where high need meets high value. And what happens is most m. People play in the lower ends of hourly billing and just trying to do work, as opposed to finding that customer confluence where high need meets high value. And they look at it and they say, oh, my gosh, I'd pay $10,000 for that. If you could help me articulate my purpose type of thing or whatever it may be, or get my life on purpose. I'd pay anything to have that. And that's the person that's your customer. Now, you might have to go through a lot of people to find that customer. Um, but they're out there.

Speaker A: Um, preach word. We're 100% aligned, you know, like, because I think that when you have a client who's meant for you, you know, like, then it's like, that's where that alignment does happen. And it's like, I love that Frederick Buechner quote, You know, where it's like, where you're. The place that God calls you is where the. You know, where the world's hunger meets your great deepest gladness. Or something along those lines. Like, there's an alignment piece where it's, like, what they're dealing with. Um, this past year, I had a, uh, skin cancer scare. And I was like, like, uh. So I actually had skin cancer, and I had to get it removed, but it was, like, on my face, and it's like, I'm, like, really nervous about this one. And I found this doctor who specialized in skin cancer care and recovery. And I would have paid, like, you know, because all the other ones, like, some of them are plastic surgeons who kind of, like, were general or dermatologists who did, like, this one, like, specialized in what I needed. And then their website, like, spoke to me, and it was like, trust, you know, like, and it built so much trust, to the point, like, even my daughter who came in town to, you know, um, sit with me while I was going through the surgery. I was, like, so relaxed because I totally trusted the doctor. And my daughter's like, oh, my God, you handle it with such grace. And I'm like, I did. And I don't like. And. And the scars taken me a thousand years to. To heal, and it drives me crazy. But Every time I sit there and I, like, I have to mess with my forehead. I'm like, yeah, but I'm not like, totally anxious because I trusted this doctor because they did the hard work of, uh, identifying that they serve me. And so there was a customer confluence. And I think that there is some of that cage of like, I. The cage to me is like the just get out there and get clients kind of like myth. Like, that's a way to build a practice. Like, no, that's not a way to build a practice. Like, or I could help anybody who needs a consultant or coach. But you're not meant to serve everybody who can need a consultant or coach. You're not equally qualified. Your story doesn't resonate. Your, your strengths are not relevant. You know, you and I might have, like, we have similarities, but we may not serve the same person or at the same point in time, or maybe it's from different angles, or maybe we partner with the person. But I'm not a duplication of you and you're not a duplication of me. We're complimentary. And I think that's, I think that's the problem is, is when you're down at this level, we think that we're in a crowded consulting or coaching market when we're at this level with customer confluence, is what you're saying, you know, or congruence. It's like competition is an illusion. There is no competition. It's, uh, this is my spot of heaven that I am like, I am like, this is set aside for me. I think that's what it means to be like purpose driven to me. I know you don't like the word purpose driven. I have to, uh. I do want to ask you about that because I was very specific around saying I talk a lot about purpose driven and I wanted to make it a polemic against people who are profit driven. But that's not, maybe not necessarily the right word. Like, I want to make sure. Like, I don't want to work with people who are just in it for the money because I think our profession is way more sacred than that. That's what drives me crazy. I would say the cage is that we think consulting or coaching is just people who work for organizations without being on the full time payroll. But that's another conversation for another day, you know. So what do you define? Like, why don't you like the word purpose driven? And what would you suggest is a better term?

Speaker B: Well, first of all, uh, what you're looking for are people who are purpose Called um, purpose. We are called to our purpose, we are not driven to it. Uh, and so as a result, um, while I appreciate Rick Warren's book the Purpose Driven Life, uh, he talks about five purposes. The fact is purpose is actually a singular word. Um, so people use it in the plural. They might describe that five people have different purposes, but they actually have five different purpose really. And so the idea is that we're not driven by it, we are called to it, therefore we choose to answer it or not. There is this free will aspect to it. And so then if Rick Warren had called it the mission driven, I could understand that because um, he's really talking about the five missions that people have as opposed to five purposes, um, where purpose, and again going back to the God self and others relationship is first between you and God, God's calling you. Um, and you are either answering that or you are not. And if you are answering it then it's, you know, you're, you're still struggling, don't get me wrong, it's still a lot of things to get in place and all of that. But um, the way I've often described it is most um, of us, uh, if you think in terms of bandwidth, most people are trying to build a fiber optic system, uh, to serve others, but they only have a copper wire going to God. So if God's the source and you only have a copper wire, there's only so much that's coming through. So you spend all this time building all this fancy high speed network and you got a copper wire that only sends a little bit of bits of information. Where I say if you can build the fiber optic system this way, know who you are, why you're here, how you know where you're going, how you want to get there and what's important you build that system, then when you go out into the world you are that much more strengthened. And that's the problem is again almost like what I see a lot of consultants doing is they're out there building all this marketing and doing all this stuff and they're doing all their social media and they're doing all these sorts of things. And I think one of the mistakes they make is what they really need is three to five clients a year and they're probably going to be well off, uh, particularly at the beginning unless they want to build, move from a practice to a business. And so they spend all their time doing what I would consider to be um, uh, brand based marketing, uh, for like as if you're a retail Marketing, when what you really need is, chances are, within the relationships you have already, there are people who will refer you and bring you the business, the right type of business. And. But most people neglect that relationship, much like re. Neglect the relationship with God. Um, we. We work. We focus outward all the time instead of sort of upward and inward and. And as a result.

Speaker A: So somebody might be listening and be like, kevin, um, that's great for you, like, in your relationship with God, but I am an atheist or I'm an agnostic. Like, I don't subscribe to that. So you had me and everything else that you were saying, but now you're losing me. How would you answer to that person?

Speaker B: Well, they believe in something. Even if you're an agnostic, you believe in, there's something bigger than you. If you're an atheist, you believe that there's nothing, but that's a belief system. So, you know, they. I think atheists, uh, in fact, it's funny. I was at a speaking engagement one time many, many years ago up in Washington, D.C. and I shared this story where I talked about a man with a cathedral and blah, blah, blah and all this sort of stuff. And this woman walked up to me and she said, you know, almost what you were saying. I was with you up until you told that cathedral story. And she said, it just made my skin crawl. She said, I pray that you never come back here again. Or, uh. She said, I'm an atheist and I pray they never have you back here as a speaker again. I said, to whom are you praying? And she looked at me and she turned around and left. I mean, at some level, you know, it's hard to deny that there is something bigger than us. Um, and so I appreciate the fact that if I have an opportunity to talk with an atheist, I'll sit there and say, do you believe that there was an earth and a people before you? And do you believe that there will be somebody after you? Something bigger is going on. I'm not sitting here trying to proselytize you to Christianity necessarily. I'm just sitting there saying, think about what the possibilities are. And I'll take whatever else that you'll give me that if there's something spiritual, I mean, uh, a lot of people that are New Age, I celebrate the fact that they're New Age because they're awakening to some sort of a spirit that's there. Um, and when we die, that spirit leaves. Um, so again, I tend to look more at the spirituality of things rather than necessarily a very narrow Christian Worldview, I welcome wherever they are spiritually because we, you know, most people can agree in on the concept of a human being. Mind, body and spirit.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that that's where it's like I'm connecting. If I'm not connecting to God, I can connect to my higher self and my spirit and the deeper wisdom, you know, the collective unconscious. Like we could all believe that there's something, you know, we all have these.

Speaker B: May the force be with you.

Speaker A: May the force. Yeah. Like we can all believe in the force and you know, the higher power,

Speaker B: you know, if you're aa, it's higher power. I mean it's.

Speaker A: Yeah. So it's like it's either way, it's like connecting with your, the higher deeper self, you know, like really building that connection of like. And what am I designed for? Really understanding my design, understanding my story and how to make meaning out of it before you go outward. And if you get this part situated, when you go outward, it's going to have a different energetic feel. It's going to connect differently with your network, different with your marketing. Everything that you're doing is not outside in, it's inside out. And I'm like just spreading the energy of my positive purpose and it's like an all alignment and I feel like the universe will conspire with you to make your purpose succeed because that's what you're here for. So it's like, like I tell people all the time, like your purpose driven business or a uh, purpose called is not to make you just happier, it's just, it is to make you more profitable because this is going to be more profitable. You're going to make more money if you are using your strengths, you're going to make more money if you're working with people you really like. It's, it's just a, uh, it's, it's just the way it is. How do people get a hold of you? Like I know we're, we're almost at the time and I don't want to, I don't want anybody to pop off and not get connected to your assessment. And I think you said you were going to give a couple people coupon to your assessment.

Speaker B: Yeah, if some people want to reach out, we can certainly do that. Um, the best way to reach me is just go to our website, which is onpurpose.com with or without the hyphen and uh, there's information. That's where my books are. And then the onpurpose me is the website where for the major investment of $20, one can go through the two word purpose tool and then, uh, you get an email series and then once a month I do an open form for customers so that if they want to come on and talk about their two word purpose statement, uh, they have questions about it, they want to refine it, they want to talk about how do I be on purpose with awakening worth or whatever their two word purpose statement might be. I just do a live coaching session, um, once a month, uh, usually on the second Tuesday of every month at 3 o'. Clock.

Speaker A: And if I may do, um, extra little plug too. If you're part of the Greater Orlando area and you want to get experience with Kevin. He also leads the Greater Orlando OD Network external consulting group and he also has a consulting consortium and I think he does some book coaching. Also on the side is what I also heard is that yeah, M. Yeah,

Speaker B: I help a lot of people that want to become authors. I talk, I walk them through the process. Although today's world, um, with AI and some of the tools that are out there, you can, you can speed up the process. I'm not a total 100, you know, don't let AI write your book, but I do believe that AI can help you a whole lot and then write your book. Um, so those are the sort of things that I look at. I'm so thankful to be in the era of AI in that regard.

Speaker A: Well, that's another whole conversation for another day. Um, right. Well, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for this lively conversation and giving me the opportunity to understand that I am here to awaken, waken worth. That makes me really happy. And if you are a consultant or coach and you want your worth awakened, um, apparently that's my purpose outside of brand as. As expressed through my brand positioning and messaging.

Speaker B: There you are.

Speaker A: Um, is what I do as you know, so that you could be purpose called not purpose driven. So that was. That's what I would love to help you with. So check out my website, www.betsyjordan.com and don't forget, Jordan is with a Y, not an A. And um, if you enjoyed this show, um, be sure to hit subscribe so that you don't miss any future episodes. And I'd love it if you could rate and review it so more people can, can find the show. And until next time, thanks so much for listening. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Kevin, so much for being on the show.

Speaker B: Thank you, Betsy. Awesome show. Fun to be with you.