Season 3 - Episode 21- Thom Dennis - New Approaches for Business Leaders in a Time of Cultural Change

Speaker A: Welcome another edition of the Boss it podcast. Well, this morning, uh, I'm going to be talking to Tom Dennis from Serenity in Leadership. Got a very diverse and interesting background. I've just been having a conversation with him, uh, just now and uh, well, hopefully some of that will come out as we discuss further. Good morning Tom. Thank you for coming on to bossit and uh, tell us a little bit of background about yourself. What's your elevator pitch?

Speaker B: Morning Mark, and thank you for having me on your, on your show. Essentially what I do now is help organizations become safer for the people that they, that work there. And I'm not talking about health and safety, I'm talking about psychological safety. And uh, really I'm motivated by the thought that leaders sometimes don't realize just how much power they have over the people, uh, not just that they employ, but the impact that they have on a wider scale. And what really activates me is helping them see, really understand the implications of the decisions that they make so that they can really take responsibility for them. So it's the impact on their people and the impact on the wider society and of course today, very much on um, the ecology, um, of uh, the whole uh, system. So in the old days, uh, I used to talk about bringing healing into business because I think there's a lot of very dysfunctional organizations out there which are led by really well meaning, motivated, dynamic people who are making decisions that they don't quite understand the impact. And, and, and so I like to help them see that.

Speaker A: Do you think there's such a thing as a natural leader?

Speaker B: Yes, I do. Um, I think people, some people, uh, have uh, more charisma. They have, uh, they're more outgoing. Uh, and I mean you only need to look at school that there are certain characters that, and naturally form groups, people gravitate to them. Um, and of course the other side of that is that people can learn how to lead, uh, as well.

Speaker A: Do you think that there are also successful executives running companies that are successful but are not great leaders?

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Yes. And often that's what they do is they create uh, an atmosphere where people feel very uncomfortable, but for whatever reason they stay there. So a lot of organizational cultures I think are very characterized by fear and uh, that's incredibly unhealthy. But you only have to look at um, the likes of, you know, Lee Iacocca, uh, and uh, uh, you know, in, in the 90s, for instance, we were really celebrating all these really heavy driving leaders who were leaving just um, damaged people all around them. I mean, Lee Iacocca, I remember there were stories of him with his. His senior management team, uh, and there were sort of experienced grown men in tears because of the way they'd been treated. And it's like, well, yeah, you will achieve some results doing that, but there's a better way. There's a better way.

Speaker A: Do you think? I remember those days in the 90s, and I was in a couple of those companies where it was almost a badge of honor that there was this sort of tough management style. Do you think that still exists today?

Speaker B: Yes, in some places. Um, uh, you know, I think having worked with a lot of American organizations, for example, when they come over to Europe, they can't believe that they can't just fire someone like that. There is negotiation. And I remember working with a French company, uh, where we had to work with the leadership team for a year while they worked out how to deal with an acquisition which was actually going to close that part of the business down. Um, and the frustration coming from across the Atlantic was intense. Um, so I think, because it's so much easier in, uh, places like the U.S. it's not just the U.S. i think that, um, yeah, that there are very damaged people, um, as a result of organizations that are still being run by people who essentially just want to make a bunch of money. And if they, if they're sharp and they're good operators, they'll do that. They will make a bunch of money. Um, but I just think, ah, we've got to be more conscious of the human cost of that. And also, actually, if you create an environment where people love working there. Well, yes, creativity and innovation and all sorts of things blossom. Uh, and actually, I remember working with one CEO, uh, and his ambition was to work 20 hours a week. That was it. Uh, and the rest of the time, he really enjoyed playing golf. So what he did was to coach his executive team so that they were empowered to run the business in a really healthy way. And it worked.

Speaker A: It worked fantastic. I mean, that brings me to a phrase that I saw when I was looking, um, at the website, your business website, which is. Businesses thrive when people thrive. I really liked that. That really resonated with me. Talk a little bit about that.

Speaker B: Uh, well, I kind of said it. I mean, one of the models that I, I love is, Is Patagonia, the, the, uh, you know, the, the. The. The outdoor clothing organization, which was created by someone, Yvona, who. Who just cared about the environment, actually. And he was a climber, and he used to make pitons and you know they hammer them into the, the, the, the rock face. And he could see it was damaging um, the, the, the, the the climb for the next person. He wanted to create uh, pitons that were much more if you like, environmentally friendly. And he just gathered around him people who were passionate about climbing. And it grew and it grew and it grew and now what is it? It's, it's over. It's, it's around a 2.2 billion dollar organization where uh, they've been running sufficiently long now where you know, they have children's creches in um, and, and special um, spaces where women can nurse and all this kind of thing. And they've got people working for the company who went through the crash and you know, so they're a ah, self generating uh, organization of passionate people who love what they're doing and really care about the impact they have on, on society and the environment. They give 10% of their, their, their is it 10%? I think it is um, uh, of their income to uh, Patagonia, the actual, the, the, the, the the country in Argentina. Um, and um, they care, they just everything so even they, they look at their suppliers and they realize because they used to, they, they adopted um, organic cotton, uh, and make clothing out of that.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And, and then they started to say well hang, hang on a minute, let's, let's look at our suppliers. How are they operating? Because organic cotton takes a huge use of water as I understand it. And so they started to then say listen, we need suppliers who are as responsible as uh, uh we are and putting much higher um demands on, on the ethics of their suppliers. Now if you go on their website you can, you can hear, you can see all of this. They're completely transparent. Um so you know, and that's one thing, you know, organizations thrive when people thrive. Transparency leads to a lot of that, um, and people being empowered and um, uh, I mean I, I've got on one of my podcasts I interview the, the xhr, um head of, of Patagonia, um, Dean Carter and he tells some stories there about um, they just had some shorts where um, I can't remember the wording. I, I, I, I, I think, I think the, the label, the, the the whoever was putting these shorts together put a label in, in the, in in the short that said vote out the I think that was the wording and they didn't ask for permission but I mean you know it got into the press and they, they just sold thousands of these shots and you know, uh, Their CEO at the time and one other were. Were arrested for being uh, in a, In a protest march, you know, supporting the environment, know, and the company just bailed them out. And that. It's. It's like that when you have an organization that. Where the people really believe in what they're doing. You know, we, we talk about purpose. I was talking about purpose yesterday. Uh, uh, and. And you know, young people, I think far more than the older generations are, ah, now coming into the workplace and saying, I want to work for an organization that I can believe in.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Isn't just about making money.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Uh, and so if they can feel that they can really bring their heart to work, then you'll get so much more out of them.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. I've experienced in the past and I think perhaps fortunately less so, um, now the approach of senior executives who will behave in one way in their personal life, but when it comes to business, they will behave in a way that they don't believe is right in their personal life. They have the excuse of, but this is business. And morally, you know, it was wrong, but they believe that in some way they get a free pass because it's business and it's about making money and it's profit. They only saw it as one way. And I think that's a very blink. And what we're now seeing is highly successful that um, are having a much more embracing way of working and nurturing the people that are part of that organization and getting paid back in benefits by seeing those people thrive and be able to add more value and to be able to drive greater success, which is fantastic.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yes, you're right. And that way, in that environment you find organizations which are much more inclusive. M. You know, you look at people with ADHD or um, some, um. Some facet of themselves which. So they end up being labeled as disabled. Um, but, you know, I mean, there's a whole conversation one could have about that. But, uh, I remember sort of peripherally being involved in a, In a business that was, uh, in Colorado and the guy set it up and he just wanted people with adhd because, um, what they were doing was taking, um, old electronic, um, things. I think they were mostly old radios and stuff like that. They needed people to take them apart and um, uh, save the bits that were worthwhile and get rid of all the rest. And, and there were people who, who just loved, you know, give them a tight brief and, and. And. And give uh, them an environment where they feel safe and they just went for it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So yeah, you know, it's. It's horses of courses, as they say that. Um, I think. I think leaders, you know, a clever leader, a sharp leader, will surround themselves with people who are not like them.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker B: And yet, you know, you see lots of organizations. I remember working with an organization years ago where, um, it was taken over by an accountancy company, and they came in and they fired everybody who didn't look like them. So there were a ton of people who could do the numbers, and there was nobody creative, nobody innovative. And nine months later, the company went down and they were all surprised.

Speaker A: I seem to remember very vaguely, a quote by Peter Drucker, who was saying that one of the biggest mistakes is that people hire somebody who is a lesser version of themselves. And the result of that is that you end up with a company of dwarves, which was actually quite a nice idea. But I could understand how that can happen.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because the leader doesn't want to be threatened, in that case by anybody. So I think it's really interesting looking, uh, at, uh, C Suites at the moment and. Well, at the moment, I think it's often the way where they look down at all these young and thrusting people coming up and they look at them and they say, my God, I'm not as good as that. Uh, and if I had to undergo all the tests and everything that they, uh, we demand of them, I'd never pass. So keep them back.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: I don't want them too close to me because I'll be shown up.

Speaker A: That's managing through fear, isn't it? Whereas they should embrace that and think that it makes the organization as a whole, the team, stronger. You want people that are stronger than you in different areas and then allow them to do their job.

Speaker B: And for that you have to. You have to manage your ego. And not everybody's very good at that.

Speaker A: Oh, my favorite subject when it comes to companies and egos, it's. It's one of the biggest killers I've seen time and time again. Egos get in the way where people end up, uh, defending an idea because they feel that to allow that idea to be attacked and challenged, it's attacking them. And it's not. It is just merely a thought that's passed through your head. Big egos cause big problem. You were in the Marines for 17 years. What are the key lessons you learned from that time?

Speaker B: Don't trust politicians.

Speaker A: We have all learned that lesson now, I'm afraid. Um. Ah.

Speaker B: Ah, boy. I mean, that's why I resigned, was I. I fell out With. With a minister when I was. I was, um, working in the Ministry of Defense.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, I think. I think the best leaders I've ever met, uh, and a lot of them were in the Marines, not all. I've met some pretty. Pretty great leaders afterwards, but I think they were all characterized by humility, uh, and an openness to listen to others. I think that something the military do extremely well is rehearsed. And I remember working with the pharmaceutical. And they were, um. They had, uh, compound teams that had to go to organizations like the FDA and in Europe, each country, and try and persuade them to have a license, you know, and we used to rehearse, and it was very common, and they did it that way. But an awful lot of organizations, you just jump into things, whereas actually taking the time to say, right, let's all get together and work this out. You know, if we've got to give a presentation, how much have we res. Um, rehearsed for it? So I think that's something. And I remember, you know, uh, in. In the Falklands, there's a very good friend of mine who was the. The guy who was responsible for the plan, the landing plan, you know, the whole thing. Uh, and he said to me, you know, uh, because we'd rehearsed this kind of operation so much, we. We knew pretty much what needed to happen. And then. So all we had to do was to tweak the plans as opposed to just sit there and scratch our head, rather as the British government did with the pandemic, where, in fact, they threw out all the. The rehearsed plans, ignored them, and just said, oh, well, you know, we'll. We'll deal with it. Which, of course, they didn't. So, um, and I put that down. I. The word I use for that is professionalism.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, I understand that. Yes. I mean that it is also about the leader being able to get the best from his team that are coming together to solve a problem. And that's about facilitation, which I know that is one of the things that you. That you're very hot upon. Um, I did a previous podcast, actually, not that long ago, and. And he said a line which was great. Leaders want to be able to bring to the service the best ideas, which doesn't mean it's their idea. It's just the best idea. It doesn't matter where it comes from. How do you do that in your facilitation? Well,

Speaker B: it's. It's preparing the ground. Um, you know, if you want to get the Best ideas from a group of people, you're, you're team then you've got to create a space where it's safe for them to um, propound that. And I think that.

Speaker A: Safe to make mistakes.

Speaker B: Well yes, I mean that's one of the things that a facilitator will do is to work with the leader to say right, what are the objectives of this, let's say this offside. And uh, often the leader isn't that clear so we work with them to, to, to really clarify their mind and then the, the, the, the facilitator can essentially chair the meeting. That's the way that I do it. Which allows then the leader to be part of the process. But in every team you'll have some extroverts and you'll have some uh, introverts. And just because they're introvert it doesn't mean to say that anything they have, has less value. But what you have to do is to create a safe space where uh, you know, sometimes you've got to say to the extrovert. That's great, thank you. Really heard you. And now I'd like to hear from yes, Joe who and, and, and uh, and, and we've got to honor the different people's styles. You know, sometimes um, someone will not actually be very comfortable speaking in, in a larger group. So all right, break them down, put them into smaller groups and enable there to be a full exploration. For instance, um, or indeed, I mean in some um, off sites I've run, I've worked with the CEO, uh, and we've given them scenarios to work through and um, some of them can be very uncomfortable. Um, but you know, they work through these scenarios and then they report back to the larger group and the larger group then sort can give some feedback. And yes, that was a really great idea and it won't work there. But that makes me think of this, you know, so you're getting this sparking off each other and, and it can be an incredibly creative um, process. Now without a facilitator that kind of thing is very difficult to do because people get very scared of making a fool of themselves or um, saying something that just sounds silly. But it's, it's just, you know, it's like their intuition is saying I've got to say it, I need to say this. Not quite sure why. And then someone else hears that and says well actually that's not as silly as it sounds because yes, I love co creation. It's, it's great.

Speaker A: That's a That's a really interesting point actually. It's about intuition. I'm um, as I, as I've got older I've, I've sort of changed my opinion uh, about intuition. Not, not that I didn't, I had something against it but I think it can be a very powerful thing. Um, I'm also um, believer in getting into um, what which are quite a famous psychologist who did a study about high achieving individuals that were able to form not just a bit better but significantly better, the best in their area. And when he studied them in all different sorts of areas and skills he saw that there was a commonality in the way that they worked and he called this flow. Uh, Michele Cheek Sembihai As a psychologist back in the 1970s and um, I'd experienced that in sport and I'd occasionally experience in business but I didn't really understand what was happening. The more I understood the more you can be able to create that. But the part of that I believe is that then you're, you enable because you are in that relaxed state. You um, trust your intuition, you trust what's going on in your subconscious. How do you help get more of that intuition being come forth into those meetings? Because quite often that can be where the diamonds the real value is somebody who has lots of experience. They may not know why, but they have this intuition that this is the right answer.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And um, you know we come into these meetings and sometimes it can be a bit scary because you've got all these people in a room and you think that this is a, this is a, this is a lot of salary, right?

Speaker A: Yes, yes.

Speaker B: And there might be hotels, there might have been flights. You know, all of a sudden this, this is, this is, this is a lot of expense. So people sit there and say come on, come on, let's get to it.

Speaker A: Where's the agenda? What's number one, how long?

Speaker B: And I, I tend to plan these things in detail but then I, I like to be able to go off piste and, and um, I like to work in circle.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So there's no desks separating anybody. And I like to start with a check in. Um, I, I, I, I encourage people just to say what they're bringing into the room, you know, because you might find that somebody their wife is um, expecting so they really need to have their phone on. Uh, you might have somebody who was just uh, driving to the venue uh, and someone cut them up and they're still kind of shaken by that so it's like, how present can you all be? M. And just that process tends to quieten people. And it's like meditation. You know, when you sit down to meditate and you got all these blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, got to do this, and, oh, I forgot about that. And what am I going to do for this? And. And you got to allow all that just to settle. Uh, and what. What that does is naturally create a. A much more, uh, creative, um, space. Uh, and some people, you know, they. They. They live in resistance of that because they're just so busy, busy, busy all the time. But, um, you know, my organization is called Serenity and Leadership.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: And it's.

Speaker A: It.

Speaker B: It is about creating that space of Serenity because, uh, I remember driving around the M25 one day, and I was in a hurry, and before I'd left the house, there was this. Just this thought, and I kind of ignored it. And I rushed to the car and I was driving, and then all of a sudden the thought crystallized. You know, I've forgotten my notebook. And I thought, oh, for God's sake. And then it's, you know, do I turn around? Because it's going to make me really, really late. And. And then I was thinking. I did. I did hear that voice, but it was so soft.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And I was shouting in the car, speak louder because I can't hear you.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And of course, it's. It's. It's not that it's, uh, create the silence or the. The. The ability to hear that small voice. Um, and. And I think when I'm coaching with. With, um, CEOs, I often say, you know, what are those still small voices saying in the organization? What is it that you're. You can actually, if you quieten down, you can see or hear that you're ignoring. And. And these things could really make a big difference.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. I think that it's very common for people to be caught up in. In their. In people's own thinking, in the voices that's going on in their head, and not be present at that moment and listening or to be calm, to be relaxed. They're thinking about the past or they're thinking about the future. And actually you're here now at that moment. Funny you say that, because I was thinking just yesterday, and this is in a. In a business environment. Um, there's somebody that we're dealing with on an outsourced basis that, um, I spent some time giving him a presentation about the project. And as I was presenting to Him. We were on a zoom call, and I could see he was checking his phone and he was checking his laptop, and I was going through. And I was in two minds to actually say to him. And I thought, well, it's probably a bit rude to say that, you know, to listen to me, if you like, but there were important things within that presentation that I wanted to listen to, because everyone that I had presented to this particular project, which is in the green area, had become very excited by what it offered, and he didn't have that excitement. And yesterday, his. His degree of urgency was lacking, and it became apparent because he wasn't present during that presentation. And I had to, in a way, reinsert that and go back through that or apply some urgency for him. But if he'd been present in that moment, we wouldn't have had the problem. And also, I mean, I mentioned just before we came, uh, and started recording, last night was the opening night of a play that I've written and directed. And my job was finished, really. I couldn't do any more. It was all down to the cast. And I sat in the middle of the audience because I wanted to feel the audience and see how they responded. This is the first time that I've seen it, um, performed live. And I watched in the first few minutes, and I could see people moving around and just sort of doing things and moving their head, and I wanted to see if the play was going to be successful. And after five minutes, the movement stopped. They stopped talking. They weren't talking loudly, but they were looking and they were. They were connecting because the. The actors did a great job. They were. They were in their zone. They were performing. They lost themselves. Their nerves had gone away, and the audience went with them, and we were able to go on a journey. That thing of being in the moment, it not only helps yourself, but it helps the people around you, I think. And it can have many, uh, consequences. Facilitation is what is one of the things that you like to do. Um, I know that you've got a master's in the psychology of change, which is also something very important and something that I've seen with mergers and acquisitions. If somebody looking at this podcast today is interested in some of the things that you've done, um, how was best to get hold of you?

Speaker B: Well, thank you. Um, I'm on LinkedIn. Um, Tom with an H. Uh, Tom. Uh, Dennis. Uh, and, um, there's the website, which is serenityinleadership.com and, um, uh, you'll find on Instagram it's serenity in leadership. Uh, we're on Twitter, si Leadership. And so on, um, and Facebook. Um, and uh, we've got a YouTube channel. And if you look for serenity and leadership, you'll find that we've got some. I mentioned Dean Carter. We've got a whole series of people. Because I've been exploring what I've called leading responsibly with integrity and purpose. Um, a series of interviews. And uh, when something really happens in the news that really activates me, I, I do a quick three minute, um, spiel on that. I haven't uh, done them for a little while because I've been kind of really busy. Funny enough facilitating mostly. Um, so yeah, that's um, all the different ways. And uh, I'd love to hear.

Speaker A: Hear from people.

Speaker B: I'd love to hear, you know, uh, if there are reactions to what I've said or you agree or disagree. Um, uh, either way. And uh, we've got, uh, I published some articles, um, in HR Director, HR Zone, um, HR training, things, uh, like that. Um, and again, feedback is great.

Speaker A: It is, um, yes, you know, positive or negative. And the bit of feedback I would have for you is I really resonated with all of the points that you made and in fact something that you said, um, it, it sort of highlighted a thought, but it helped create greater clarity for me. I recently hosted a meeting and I've sort of got a, an approach when, when, um, when bringing together and having a meeting is about planning detail, but execute with flexibility. That, that's what I was reading from that and that thought as you were going through, that's helped me, uh, in some of my thinking. So thank you very much for that. Thank you for coming onto the Boss it podcast. Um, I've enjoyed talk. Uh, I hope that pe other people who have enjoyed it will reach out to you. Thank you very much.

Speaker B: Uh, Tom, thank you.

Speaker A: Uh, let's keep in contact.

Speaker B: Yes, it's been fun talking with you.

Speaker A: Thanks. Thank you very much. If you've enjoyed today the Bosset podcast, then please reach out to me and let me know. If you haven't enjoyed it, then let me know as well. It's all useful feedback. Uh, until next time, thank you very much. Sam.