Great Clips CEO Rob Goggins: "I Like It When People Challenge Me to Think a Little Bit Differently"

Speaker A: M foreign.

Speaker B: Presented by Versiq. Sharing inspiring stories from local business leaders and learning how their experiences and the people involved have shaped them along the way.

Speaker C: This is exciting. Today, to kick us off on, um, Unscripted with Versi, we have Rob Goggins, president and CEO of Great Clips. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for having me. Good to be with both of you. Yeah.

Speaker D: Rob, first ever podcast that you've been on.

Speaker C: I know. Uh, once again, I'm twisting arms and almost assaulting people when I see them.

Speaker D: So talk to me about the ask, where were you guys when?

Speaker C: Well, Rob had recently won an award, so we both serve on Junior Achievement Board on the executive committee, and he was the chair and he won an award, which we'll get to. But then he's like, hey, also, because we also bonded over red wine at a happy hour, like last year. He's probably like, oh, my gosh. It was supposed to be a few of us, and he got stuck with just me. And he's probably like, oh, boy.

Speaker A: Oh, it was great.

Speaker C: But it was so we had the best time. Like, I was like, oh, my gosh, I gotta go, because we had the Wolves game that night. It was such a bummer. But then we got talking about, you know, how I love my cabs, my red wine, and we got talking about our love for that. So it was fabulous. So then in the email when I was congratulating him, he's like, hey, by the way, any great vineyards? I was like, yeah, I've been to this one. And by the way, will you be on our podcast?

Speaker D: Okay. Okay.

Speaker C: So thank you for coming.

Speaker A: Like I said, you're persuasive. Nice work. Well, I appreciate you serving, uh, on the Junior Achievement.

Speaker C: Thank you. It is such a fabulous board and such a great group, and you really. I mean, Sarah, the CEO has just phenomenal. It's just. It's really impactful work, so I'm honored to serve on it. All right, so let's kick off. So here's what we want to do. Obviously, we'll talk a little bit about great clips and things like that, because I did think of you. It was last year, I think, when we were talking about, like, the March Madness stuff. Remember you were telling me, and I was like, oh, my gosh, there's a commercial. And then my son also picked great clips to do his school project on.

Speaker A: Oh, excellent.

Speaker C: So, yeah, I was talking a little bit about you.

Speaker A: But anyway, does he have some tips for us? Some business tips?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Really?

Speaker C: Well, he is A customer too.

Speaker A: So thank you.

Speaker C: So let's start off. Let's talk about you. So we really want to learn about your journey to today. So tell us where you were born. Let's start there.

Speaker A: Oshkosh, Wisconsin, home of Oshkosh Bagash. For anyone that likes, uh, airplanes, it's the busiest, uh, airport in the world for one weekend out of the year for the Experimental Aircraft Association. Um, yep. So I think they get like a million people that come in for a week to check out all kinds of plane stuff.

Speaker C: Awesome. So, born in Oshkosh. And tell us about parents and siblings. So parents.

Speaker A: Uh, my dad lives here in Andover, Minnesota, and my parents actually split when I was 2. So they're from Oshkosh. They came over here for my dad's work and then they split up. So my mom took me back to Oshkosh. She raised me on her own, and then I would come over in the summers and visit my dad and see him on holidays and things like that. But born and raised in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, for the most part. And then I've got a half brother, David, who is a police officer in Maple Grove. So if you're ever in trouble up there.

Speaker C: Oh, all of our M. Maple Grove versikians might know your brother, hopefully in

Speaker D: the best way possible.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. I've actually worked with him. Uh, my wife has, uh, ridden the car with him when he's doing, you know, a shift. I've done it. My son and daughter have as well. He's the nicest, very laid back police officer. Great.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: Grove. I love it.

Speaker C: I love that. Okay, so that's right. We talked about that when we got together because my parents split when I was three and it was the same thing. My mom and then we visited my dad and my stepmom in the summers. But. So tell us what it was like with you and your mom in Wisconsin when you were young. Tell us about school growing up.

Speaker A: So it was great in the sense that obviously my mom loved me and, uh, cared for me. She worked a lot. She had typically, uh, minimum two, if not three jobs, and, uh, really worked very hard to try to keep food on the table and a roof over our head. Economically, it was challenging. You know, it seemed like frequently, uh, the landlord was looking for late rent and, uh, the utility companies were turning things off here and there. And so I think economically it was very tough for my mom, which impacted how I grew up and what I wanted in the future as well.

Speaker C: Did you notice that when you were a young child. Did you know the totality of what was really happening?

Speaker A: I don't think I did until high school. It really hit me. I mean, in grade school, you know, it's all your friends live within a couple blocks, and you're all kind of in the same, uh, socioeconomic status, so it's not noticeable. Middle school, maybe a touch more. But then when I went to high school and I started seeing kids that grew up in homes with, you know, business owners as parents and doctors and attorneys, and just hearing about the lifestyle they lived, and not to be materialistic about it, but it was dramatically different than how I grew up. And I remember thinking, I want economic stability in the future. Now this is, you know, as a 13, 14, 17 year old, whatever it was. So it imprinted me in that way. I mean, I love my upbringing. My mom did a great job. Love the neighborhood I grew up in. Wouldn't change anything for the world. Had great friends. It was the best of both worlds. I grew up as an only child. I have a half brother who's 11 years younger than me, but he grew up here and I grew up in Wisconsin, so I effectively grew up as an only child. But I had all the friends in the world within a block and grand great friends. And so I could go home and be alone if I wanted to, or I could just step outside and have all these great friends and activities and it was fun.

Speaker C: Tell us about school. Where'd you go to elementary?

Speaker A: Uh, so I went to Dale elementary, which I think two years after I left, got converted to condos. It was built like in the 1800s. Very old school. They had an ice skating rink. This is Wisconsin, not Minnesota. So we didn't have ponds outside like you guys have here. So we had an ice skating rink, a warming house, of course, covered in asbestos. That is illegal now, of course, but we'd come inside and put our mittens on the old school radiators and floor to ceiling window. Just this beautiful old school. So I went to school there for grade school. And then it was, uh, Webster Stanley Middle School, which I think has been torn down as well. First one got converted to condos. Second one got torn down.

Speaker C: Wow, you really did a number on these.

Speaker D: Excited to hear about high school.

Speaker A: High school is still around. Oshkosh North High School. The Spartans, it was called. So, yeah, I was probably. I felt like one of those kids that had to work my tail off to get slightly above average grades. You know, it didn't come easy.

Speaker D: Sure. How about extra activities Yeah, I did

Speaker A: track and football officially my freshman year of high school. Otherwise I worked a ton.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah, I started working when I was 11 years old. Paper route. I think he had to be 12, but somebody snuck me in somehow and got me in at 11. I always get a kick out of this, though. Imagine you're 11, doing paper. Uh, back then, you know, it was every single day. And then you had to go out and collect from your own customers.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker A: Nothing like sending an 11 year old kid out with a bag of money to collect from strangers.

Speaker C: That was my first job, same age. And I remember, you know, the houses where it's like a little dark. I'm like, I'm walking up and I think to now like, I, my kids are almost 13. I would never let them do that. You'd walk to these houses, like blocks away from the house and I'd be like, you know, knock, knock. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I've never seen this person. And then the people that pay and change and you have all this change in dollar bills and you're walking around with this money as a kid.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I'll date myself. But this just reminds me of the movie Better Off Dead with the kid going from door to door saying, I want my $2. The paper boy.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So paper route was your first job?

Speaker A: Paper. It was a first job and then, you know, miscellaneous odd jobs here and there. So for instance, I worked at the eaa, the Experimental Aircraft association for, uh, whatever it was on the one week it was on or 10 days. And I was, you know, slinging ice and sodas and burgers. And that's when the Concorde first landed. I think it was their first touchdown in uh, outside of like New York City maybe. So some of those kind of jobs. And man, I worked at Burger King for three days. I worked at the airport.

Speaker C: Wait, wait, wait, wait. You can't just skip over that.

Speaker A: Worst joke.

Speaker C: Three days.

Speaker A: Uh, your choice.

Speaker D: Their choice. Three days.

Speaker A: No, my choice. This is a pretty embarrassing story. So I was the typical grunt in the Burger King and I was in the fry station. And it was so greasy in there that you didn't even have to pick up your feet. You could slide from station to station, you know, toasting buns and making fries. Uh, but the worst was they had me doing nothing but chopping onions for a shift and my hands reeked like onions for a week. And I just despised it. Uh, that was, you know, kind of soured me on fast food. And this is the most embarrassing thing. So I was so embarrassed to go back and say, I'm quitting. I had my mom go in and turn in my uniform and ask for my last check. Like, if my kids asked me to do that today, I'd be like, you get your rear end in there.

Speaker D: Yeah, I was just representing you. My client will not be back in work. Let's go back to the collections. As a paper boy, do you remember any stories about you saying, like, I need to do this. I need to have this courage to go up to the door and collect the money so I can get.

Speaker C: Because you had to pay. If you were short, you paid the money.

Speaker A: Yeah, we had to pay the. It, uh, was Oshkosh. Northwestern was the paper. And so we had to pay them every two weeks. And so we had to collect money from our customers to make sure we could pay and then get our own profit. And it was just, you know, it was, again, economic necessity. If I wanted a nicer pair of shoes or I wanted a certain bike, my mom was like, well, then you got to figure it out. You're going to have to go make some money. And so that was the impetus to go out there and do something. And I mean, this is back in the days when you sold, like, greeting, uh, cards to neighbors to earn money and win a trip somewhere or something. I did all that kind of stuff. So it was kind of embedded in me early on to just have some initiative and go do it, figure it out.

Speaker C: You said, you know, you had to work really hard to get kind of the average, a little above average grades. Did you have any subjects that you really enjoyed or any teachers?

Speaker A: You know? My favorite teacher, if I think back to middle school, my favorite teacher was Mr. Pable. P, A, B, L, E. This, uh, just a, like what I would call a big bone. Guy, like, looked like he was a farm boy from Iowa or something. And nice guy. I think at the time he was a World War II veteran, so he was very patriotic. We did the pledge of allegiance at the start of every, uh. This was, I think, social studies or history class. And he's also the guy that my buddy and I, Jeff, we sat across from each other and one time we had to turn on a paper, and I forget who cheated off who, but we basically copied each other's papers and we didn't apparently take much effort to try to change it. And Mr. Pable, of course, caught it. And I can still distinctly remember he had a D minus written on the front page of mine and said it uh, looks very similar to Jeff's paper. And then it said, I'm disappointed in you. And I was like, oh, here's this guy, respected and liked. And, um, you do something stupid. And he calls it. Which I actually appreciate that he called me out on it. Now, in hindsight, and I just like teachers like that, that held you to a higher standard, and he usually pushed us harder than we thought we could even go ourselves. So I appreciated that about him.

Speaker C: I love that.

Speaker D: Very good. So you're in high school in Oshkosh. Go Spartans.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Uh, um. And you're doing a lot of work through high school. Your work, uh, ethic. Because you see your mom doing two to three jobs. How in the cards was college for you?

Speaker A: Well, thank goodness college was much cheaper back then than it is today. Uh, so I'm guessing. Gosh, I can't even remember. I know my dad paid for one semester, and I think it was, like, 950. $50. So let's just say it was a couple thousand bucks. And of course, I didn't have any money, but back then, they had a lot of Pell grants and things like that. So you had to work at the school to get your money. So I worked at the paper at the time. So when I stopped delivering papers, I became the route driver, and then I went into customer service, all part time while I was going to school. So I worked at the paper. I worked at the local hospital as a security guard through the school. I worked as a security guard at the art gallery, which is as boring as it sounds. So great.

Speaker C: Better than Burger King?

Speaker A: Yes, much better. Much better. But it was a great chance to get homework done and things like that. And then I worked in the art department, which is also where a young lady taught me how to ride a motorcycle. From the art department at, uh, University of Wisconsin, Oshkosh. Whole separate story. So anyway, I had a lot of jobs. I probably averaged 30 to 40 hours a week. Week. Working through college while going to college. So dad paid for one semester. Mom, of course, couldn't afford to pay for any of that stuff. But I lived at home all four years in our apartment, and then Pell grants and writing some checks on my own. And I think I graduated with, like, $4,000 in student loans, which, you know, at like, 40 bucks a month. I think I paid off 10 years later.

Speaker C: Yeah, a month.

Speaker D: Right on. And what were you studying in college when you got in? Did you know what you wanted to study right away?

Speaker A: I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. I knew it was probably gonna be something in business and frankly I knew it wasn't gonna be accounting or finance or some specialized thing. So I was gonna do something a little bit more broad based communications, advertising. So I chose marketing. Kind of liked it at the time and being very candid not to knock anybody in marketing, cause I love marketing. But I wanted something that wasn't like atrociously difficult to get through. Like get me my de, get me out of here and let me go make some money in the business world. That was my thinking at the time.

Speaker C: You know, you started college and you knew even at a young age that you wanted to have a different life. Like you wanted to be able to take care of yourself, not have the landlords and things looking for you. So you're in college. So tell us about, you know, your thoughts as you're getting ready to graduate. What was your plan? Did you have an idea of kind of what you wanted to do, even though you took the easy way out with marketing?

Speaker A: And again, I'm sorry to marketing people. We've got a great marketing group at Great Clips too. So it's funny you asked that question because when I took a communications class, I think this was senior year, so I don't, I forget the exact title of it, but it was communications and debate and all that kind of stuff. I can remember the professor in one of the later classes in the semester saying, how much do you all think you're going to make in your first job out of school? Now this was fall of 91 and there was a recession going on, but I was somewhat oblivious. She went by range, how many people think they're going to make from, I don't know, 15 to 20 and 20 to 25 and so on. I didn't raise my hand until she got to like 40 to $50,000. And then we graduate into a recession. And I was working as an intern for a very small creativity and consulting firm. They did some pretty unique stuff. Very small, like six, seven, eight people. And they offered me a job after I graduated and it was 18,500. And I thought, oh my goodness, was I wrong on that? It was a swing and a miss on the salary range. It was a bit of a shocker. Uh, so that was the first job and then they went belly up during the recession. And then the second job I got, which is where I met my wife, was I think $19,000. And I was the receptionist for the customer service department. I always joke I Couldn't even get hired as the receptionist for the main company. They put me in the customer service department. And so the calls would come in. This is so old school. The calls would come in and I would dish them out to the 10 or 12 customer service reps. My wife, my now, uh, wife was a customer service rep. And so we hit it off. And I'm going down on a tangent

Speaker C: now, but no, I love it. So you graduate from school, you're a customer service. And then were you, you were still in Wisconsin. Okay.

Speaker A: In the Oshkosh, uh, they call it Paper Valley, but Oshkosh. Nina Manasha, Appleton area. Yeah.

Speaker C: Okay. How long were you there? Longer than three days, I assume.

Speaker A: So I was at that company. Uh, so the first company got hired out of college. Let's say that was year, year and a half. And then again they went under, which was painful. The gentleman that uh, I worked for, nicest guy in the world, really good guy, he was crying as he told me he had to let me go because they were struggling financially. And then I went to the next company, which is called Central Products. And so I was the receptionist for the customer service department for prob. Three months, four months. And then got promoted to customer service rep. Maybe a year doing that promoted me to marketing manager. Maybe a year of doing that. And then they promoted me to outside sales and they moved. My, uh, wife and I, we got married and uh, we moved to Ann Arbor, Michigan. And I was covering Michigan, Indiana and Ohio in outside packaging sales.

Speaker D: Outside packaging?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, very exciting. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: I don't even know what that means. What's an outside packaging.

Speaker A: Sorry. Versus inside sales, Meaning you're out packaging. Yeah.

Speaker C: How are you like door to door?

Speaker A: No, no, no. We sold through distribution. So we at the time were the second largest carton ceiling tape manufacturer in the country. 3M, um, was first. We were a distant second, but I always like to say we were second largest. And uh, then we sold through distribution and then we helped the distributors sell to end users. So let's say, you know a place making brake parts that would get shipped into Ford or GM or something. Uh, they'd make the brake parts, put them in a box, tape them up with either the plastic carton ceiling tape or the paper reinforced. And we sold all that stuff and the tape machines and equipment and all that.

Speaker D: Yeah. So this is where I think your LinkedIn starts to catch on because in 2002 I noticed that you have a title of a co founder.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker D: For the inspired packaging Solutions. So I want to hear the story. You're selling tape to Callahan Motor Parts.

Speaker B: There you go.

Speaker D: Like that. And now did you make a decision to say, you know what? I think I can do something again?

Speaker A: Well, I thought I was entrepreneurial. I wanted to own my own business.

Speaker C: Well, it sounds like it based on early on, like the newspaper route and kind of trying different things.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's tough because on the one hand, you want and you strive. I did. I strove for economic stability. I wanted to provide for my family, make sure they didn't have the challenges that I had when I was growing up. On the other hand, I wanted to take some chances and some risks and do something, uh, create my own business. So my wife and I actually bought into a franchise. We never got it open. We were looking for real estate. Long story, couldn't find the real estate. That didn't work out. And then one of my customers became really good friends. We decided to start our own packaging distributor. So I went from the manufacturer to becoming a distributor with this good friend of mine. And he, uh, was, um, still is Hispanic. And so there was a big push in that time, especially with automotive companies, to start moving business to, uh, certified minority businesses. Now this is back in mid-90s, and so there was a lot of shams going on, a lot of games being played with that whole system. But my former partner was truly great at packaging and happened to be Hispanic. Uh, so we partnered up. He owned 51%, I own 49%. So we started inspired, uh, packaging solutions. And the business did well. The partnership did not. He owned 51%, I own 49. We parted ways.

Speaker D: Okay, so but this launches you then into the world of kind of franchise development. So you said you and your wife were looking for a franchise. Didn't work out. Were you inspired by that? Did you say, I think this is the move?

Speaker A: Well, it's. So give my wife 100% of the credit. Her name is Katie. And so I was fascinated by franchising. I researched the heck out of franchises back in the day, read a lot of franchise disclosure documents, and just selected the wrong one at the time. And so when Subway was big back then. Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. I didn't go down that road. But Subway's big. So in my opinion, it was the time to give up the dream of owning my own business. So this is, um, this is early 2000. So we got two kids now. My wife had worked at Domino's corporate office. We agreed she would stay home once she had her first child. And so there was, you know, pressure on my provide for the family, which I was fine with. I loved it. I'm looking at jobs in the paper, old school paper jobs, and I see one for franchise development, which is a fancy word of saying franchise sales. And for some reason, the franchise world, they don't like to say franchise sales. They like to call it franchise development. And I saw a franchise development position with a company called Service Brands International. And I showed it to my wife and she goes, well, you should apply. And I said, oh, uh, you know, after having a bad experience with a franchise company, I said, I'm not sure about these franchise people anymore. Maybe I should just drop that. She said, look, just go in for the interview, if for no other reason than to get some practice at answering some questions. And because it had been a while since I'd been through that process. So I said, okay, I'll go, just because you suggested I go. And so I went in there, almost not even caring if I got the job. It was just, I'm not sure who you are, what you do, but I'll just go through the process and the motions. Well, we really hit it off and I liked what they had to say and they were good people and, you know, I got the job. So I started selling for Molly Maid, which was one of their five brands that they had at the time.

Speaker D: Yeah, okay, very good. So Service, uh, Brands International, VP of Franchise Development from about 03 to 07. And talk to me about what you learned in that hardcore sales development role that helped get you into great, Cliff.

Speaker A: Well, a few things stand out. You mentioned hardcore. I would say it was the opposite of that. So it took me probably six months to switch from B2B sales. I was calling on distributors, and I loved my other job. It just got a little routine after a couple years. But calling on distributors and then helping them call on end users, and you were talking to business professionals. So they were all about, you know, quality and consistency and delivery and yes, price and all that kind of stuff. I had that stuff nailed down after a while. It was a lot of fun. But then when you switch to B2C and short of maybe somebody buying a house, if they invest in a franchise, it's the biggest investment they're ever going to make. You know, if they've got a net worth of $500,000 at the time at Service Brands, they might invest 2 to 250 in Molly Maid. You really had to turn off the sales mode and the sales speak and the sales mindset, and you had to build the relationship and build trust and confidence before you could even get to the persuasion part. And that was a real shift for me. And it took me probably 6m months to figure it out. But then once I did, it went great. I loved it. I was decent at it. And so I started there in 03. I think they promoted me in 05. And then the other big shift was up until that point, I was very me focused in my career. It was me and my goals and my achievements and my commission check and my W2 at the end of the year and hopefully watching a climb every year. And then at this place, they started asking me to help out some of the guys that were struggling. I say guys, it was, let's say there's 12 people on the team. 11 of the 12 were guys. And so help out some of these people that were struggling. So, for instance, we had a former radio disc jockey that was hired as a franchise salesperson. We had a former hockey coach that was hired as a franchise salesperson. And they needed varying levels of training or coaching. Other people helped too. But when I helped and I could see them succeed because of some advice you gave them, like, oh, my goodness, this is 10 times more rewarding than cashing some commission check. And that's when it hit me that I would love to manage and coach and lead other people. That's when that kind of epiphany really went off in my head. And that was until I was like, you know, 33 years old or something. So it took me a while to get there.

Speaker C: This is 05, you said?

Speaker A: Thereabouts. Yeah.

Speaker C: And then. So did you then transition into a coaching role?

Speaker A: Yeah. So that's when they promoted me to VP of Franchise Development. A typical franchise will add 6, 8, 10 new franchisees per year. And M at service brands, we were adding 150.

Speaker C: Oh, my God.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was a machine that is. A lot of people contributed, but great systems, great process, great people. We were a machine. It was a lot of fun.

Speaker C: I have some experience in that from many moons ago. I went to this training and it's so interesting how if someone doesn't have like a franchise disclosure document. I don't even know if I'm getting these names right in this state. You can't even talk to them about the business because it's so. I was like, whoa, this is. It's crazy. But then my dad and my stepmom had owned Rainbow International carpet cleaning franchise.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Out of Waco, Texas for years. So I was very familiar with like the business and just thinking like you said, it was like they basically put everything into it and how much that like meant to our family. But it is a way for, if you're an entrepreneur to get started on something that has a brand and identity and you know, you have your royalties and all that, but to be a part of a group versus going out and starting something on your own.

Speaker A: Yeah. And here's the interesting thing about franchising is there's roughly 3,500 franchise concepts in existence just here in the United states. And about 350 start up every year. And the 3500 rarely changes. So that means 350 go away. Now it doesn't mean they failed.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: But they chose not to renew their franchise disclosure document. So might have got gobbled up by somebody bigger, might have decided to stop franchising for some reason, some fail and so on. And so only something like 10% of the 3500 ever get over 100 units. There's some really successful franchise companies and we all know their names, but there's a lot that never crack 100 units. You know, I feel for these prospective franchisees and new franchisees that join the wrong franchise system, as I did, uh, because it's painful and it's painful emotionally and economically, financially.

Speaker D: Um, so it's 2007. You're helping people who are struggling get up the field. You've got that newfound, uh, engagement around leadership. You're starting to sell through, what did you say, like servicing and trust. And that's how you're selling to individuals.

Speaker C: Well, more building relationships versus just selling, trying to sell something.

Speaker D: So what happens 2007 that causes you to start looking at other opportunities?

Speaker A: I wasn't looking. I was headhunted away. Mhm. You know, inevitably when you're performing and you're in a leadership role, you start getting those calls. And I was very engaged in the International Franchise Association. I was on panels, I was going to their conferences and conventions and all that stuff. And so I think there was, um, I wasn't intentional about it. I just wanted to give back to the franchise industry. But you know, eventually you start meeting some people and you start getting connected. And so I got a call and I'd had a number of those calls and I always dismissed them, um, because I was very happy where I was. We had just built our dream home five miles from the office. My wife was running the preschool in town where our kids were going to school. I thought we had the perfect life. I would sometimes go home during Lunch and have lunch with my family. Back in the days, we still worked in the office five days a week. And so life was great. And then I got a call and this gentleman starts kind of describing the company, wouldn't say who it was, and he's describing it. And I said, are you talking about Great Clips? And he said, well, yeah, you got to keep it confidential, but yes, I am. And I was thinking, oh, my goodness. I mean, short of like Hilton Hotels or something like that, in my mind, Great Clips was like a blue chip franchise company. They had a stellar reputation in the industry. Really smart, competent people. Whenever I ran into their folks at industry events, I was always very impressed by Great Clips. I thought, oh my goodness, if Great Clips is knocking on my door, I should probably take that call. And I'll try to keep this brief. Keep in mind, we just built our dream house 18 months before. My wife designed it. Worked with our, uh, 80s. Like, uh, she was the general contractor, if you will. I mean, I might have picked out one set of bathroom towels. She did everything. And so I come home and I say, I got a call and Great Clips, and they're based in Minneapolis. We're living in Ann Arbor, Michigan, or near Ann Arbor. And she said, I'll leave out the swear words, but she said, there's no blanking way to Minnesota. And we had visited my dad over here a number of times. And she's like, it's either bitter cold in winter and we're from Wisconsin. She's like, it's either bitter cold in winter or it's nothing but mosquitoes in summer. We just built this house. I'm running the preschool. You got a great job. Why would we consider this? I said, okay, I'll fly over to Minnesota. I'll have dinner with my dad on Great Clips dime. I'll go say hi to the Great Clips people. I'll interview. I'm sure nothing will come of it. They're probably talking to 50 very qualified people. So I did that. And then I come home, I'm like, oh, my goodness, these are some pretty nice folks. I think this is a decent opportunity. And then they called and said, we'd like to bring you back for a second interview and meet the owners and all that stuff. And then after the second round of interviews, then they offered me the job and I shared that with my wife. And she said, I'm not moving. And so I told the owners of

Speaker C: the company, they're like, get her here.

Speaker A: So Ray Barton, who is the majority owner of Great Cliffs, Wonderful Guy, he says, I will fly you and Katie and the two kids, Jack and Sydney, I'll fly you all over. Let's meet everybody, show them the area and get Katie comfortable with who we are. And so then we all flew over. And I'll spare you all the details, but Katie met the key folks, including Rhoda, who was a part owner, and Ray. And she just loved them. And she's like, okay, we'll do it.

Speaker D: I like the fact that, uh, you know, the worm had turned. She said, you know, you should go to service brands and just talk to them. And you're like, I don't even really

Speaker A: want to do it.

Speaker D: And then when it comes to great

Speaker A: clips, it was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You followed the story very well. But fortunately she said yes. And here it is and this June it'll be 19 years. And uh, you know, Katie, she just wonderful person, love her to death. Of course, she puts down deep roots. So when the thought of uprooting from the Ann Arbor area kind of got into our minds, it was, it was challenging to think all of our friends, kids, friends and the school I'm running. And it was challenging. But great, uh, move.

Speaker C: Turned out otherwise a native Ohioan and Buckeye. Good choice. Good choice to get out of Ann Arbor.

Speaker D: Oh, uh, okay. So over to great clips. Same title, VP of Franchise development. Was there an apparent difference that you felt right away when you started with the new franchise?

Speaker A: Oh yeah.

Speaker D: What were they?

Speaker A: I mean, for one, well, let's start micro and then go macro. So from a micro perspective, they had a couple really high powered people leading their franchise development area before I got there. And then they had left a year or two prior and so they were struggling with franchise development. I think they'd gone from 175 new franchisees in their top year, peak year to maybe 45 when I came along. So we had some rebuilding to do there and we did all that and got it back up to about 125 per year. So that was great. From a macro perspective, what was different is that I came from a company that had five brands under one roof, all home service concepts. They've since been gobbled up by a company that goes by the name of Neighborly out of Waco, Texas. They might have owned Rainbow or something, or maybe they still do. I'm not sure. They own like 40 brands now. But anyway, I went from this umbrella organization that had a shared services model to a system that was three times the size of the entire organization I had left and 100% focused on great clips and nothing else. In fact, I can distinctly recall saying to Ray, you know, you might want to consider. Early on in my tenure at Great Cliffs, very bold. I said to Ray, you might want to consider the strategy we had at service brands, where we had multiple concepts, and I think you'd be good at it. And he said, I'll tell you what, why don't you just. In so many words, it was, why don't you just do your job and learn the Great Cliffs way for a while, and we could talk a few years down the road. And now I see the power of it. When you get that freight train moving down the tracks focused on one brand, which is hard enough to execute on one brand, it really builds some power over time.

Speaker C: You're in that role for how long?

Speaker A: Uh, four years.

Speaker C: Okay, and then what's the next role?

Speaker A: Well, then they came to me and said, we would like you to take over real estate. The gentleman that was running real estate was going to retire. And I said, I literally declined the promotion for six months. And I said, I don't know anything about commercial real estate.

Speaker D: Why did they come to you that opportunity?

Speaker A: Because they had seen what I had done in franchise development in terms of being willing to tackle some pretty tough situations, to make some necessary changes and make some hard decisions, building trust with the team and with our franchisees. And did you have growth?

Speaker C: Because you said the max out was 1:75. When you came, it was 45.

Speaker A: So I assume we went up to 1:25. Okay, yeah. So there was performance.

Speaker C: You were just, like, from 45 to 50 over a few years. And I'm like, oh, okay, this guy.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no. So, yeah, there was performance as well. And. But, you know, I had never grown up in a big company. Like, sometimes you mentioned Target. You hear about all these big companies here in town where people are intentionally moved around every 18 months or two years. I never had that. It was just, look, you're a salesperson. Go do your sales thing, turn in your numbers and keep performing and stay off our radar. And so I didn't have the confidence to think, oh, I've got transferable skills that could work in this department, but it could also work over there in real estate. So I literally said, no. I declined the promotion for probably six months. And then eventually they said, okay, this is the last opportunity. We want you to say yes. And I said, uh, I'll say yes. As long as you tell me if I'm no good at it, I can go back to My old job, you're not just going to terminate. There you go, a lot of great clips. And they said, okay, we'll make you that deal. And so then I took it and it turned out great. And it, uh, was a lot of fun. And then we performed as well.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, apparently. So you're in that role 2011 to 2013 and then your next move was to COO.

Speaker A: Yeah, it might have been an EVP role or something, I can't recall. But yeah, then COO at some point in that time frame and same deal. They talked to me about that for six months. I said no, for six months.

Speaker C: What is Katie saying at this point? Is she like, okay, come on.

Speaker D: She says we have roots here.

Speaker A: Uh, well, you know what I did say at some point, I think it was the COO one. I went home and talked to Katie and the kids because they would have been, you know, 10, 12 years old, something like that. And I recall saying something like, if I take this job and if I perform well, then odds are good it's going to lead to so and so. And that could mean more travel and more work and more time away from the family. And they all, I recall them almost laughing at me going, how could you work anymore? How could you travel anymore? We're great, we got a great work life balance with you. Don't worry about it. And so then eventually, but in the company, the big change for me and kind of mental block to get over is that now you're really talking about being out of your element. I mean, it's about working with people that for decades have been doing things like marketing or operations or technology and going, I don't know these areas. But then it started to settle in with me that, okay, if you've got good people and you're just, you're doing your thing to help those people get better and improve performance and then it works out.

Speaker C: Yeah, you don't have to know how to do the technology, you don't have to know how to do the marketing. You have people that can do that and just empower them.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's where the building trust, asking the right questions, listening carefully, kind of, uh, unclogging the obstacles and helping to build the culture and all that kind of stuff starts to come into play.

Speaker C: Then you're coo and then you become president.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And what year was that?

Speaker A: I think that was 2018.

Speaker C: Okay, 2018.

Speaker D: Not a lot going on between 2018 and 2026 was there in the world, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, yeah, it was A long apprenticeship period. But, yeah, Covid was very interesting for us. So we hit a peak of, uh, 4,501 salons on March 1st of 2020.

Speaker C: Wait, how many? 4,501.

Speaker A: Correct. And then give that date again. March 1st of 2020.

Speaker C: So in March 13th was the.

Speaker A: March 16th is when the. You know what really hit the fan for us? I was literally at a franchisee celebration event. I think this was in Omaha, Nebraska, March 15th. And I can remember people going, are we even supposed to be shaking hands right now? And so March 16th is when everything hit us pretty hard. And we went from 4501 to 17 salons open. All the rest close, obviously temporarily closed. We had 16 salons in Salt Lake City that stayed open and one salon on a military base in Texas where the general demanded that we stay open.

Speaker D: How does that call fall down to the franchisees? Is it you guys, as the entity, saying, we would really suggest you shut

Speaker C: your doors or as the franchisor or, uh, is it up to you then to communicate that?

Speaker A: Well, I mean, keep in mind, in a lot. And we're in Canada as well, so we got about 150 salons in Canada. So a lot of these places, they were being told, you have to shut down. And then we just gave everybody the green light to shut down. Because any franchise system, you've got rules and policies and compliance payments and things like that. Yeah, people can't just shut down because they feel like it. So we gave everybody the green light to do what they needed to do. And so that's when, effectively the whole system shut down. And I think it was Atlanta, uh, maybe the state of Georgia that opened up again something like four to six weeks later. That was the first area that reopened.

Speaker C: Well, and so then just to have to manage as the franchisor, the rules and regulations per state. I mean, there's Canada, but per state, as they're changing. And, uh, this one can open, this one can't. And then I can't even imagine the intensity of this is people's livelihoods. Right. Like, you're partners with them. It's not like you just sell them something and go on your way so you're partners with them. I can't even imagine during that time, the conversations.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was easily the most intense time of my professional life, for sure. I think it was probably six months of what felt like 18 hours a day, and everybody. And we had a big riff, unfortunately. So two thirds of our corporate folks, we had zero, virtually zero money coming in so we had to, uh, part ways with about two thirds of employees, vast majority of which got hired back over the next six months. But, yeah, it was extremely challenging. And I can recall going from a very good relationship with our franchisees and still a good relationship, but then they were so stressed, understandably, especially those in states where it was really onerous, and I'm not trying to get into political stuff, but in states where it was very onerous in terms of the rules and regulations and how long they had to be shut down for. And I was on the phone, you know, nights and weekends with some of these folks literally crying, uh, because, yeah, it's devastating. And who keeps. You know, on the one hand, the government's saying, please keep your employees around before they had all the machinations in place for ERTC and whatnot. So on the one hand, you got state and federal feds and local government saying, please keep your employees around. On the other hand, they're going, I can't make any money. You're physically telling me I can't open. How am I supposed to. I can't make this work. And, um, you know, most small business owners don't keep 3, 612 months of payroll money around. It's. It's a lot of, A lot of cash. So, yeah, very stressful times for franchisees. I want to thank all taxpayers listening because your taxpayer money helped a lot of small businesses through some very difficult times. Yeah.

Speaker C: Wow. So you navigate. Covid, you said you rift about two thirds of the corporate staff, but over the next six months brought a lot of those back. And you went from 4501 to 1716 in Salt Lake and then one in Texas.

Speaker A: That's right, yeah.

Speaker C: Tell us about the shift back then. You're coming back. Every state's different. I can't even imagine managing all that. I mean, did you have some that were. Didn't come back?

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker C: And then. Because then, you know, and I don't remember everything, but it either comes back to corporate, so then you have them back or they just close or then you're selling to someone else in the area or.

Speaker A: Yeah, we have zero corporate locations. Okay, great clips. Tried running corporate salons now probably 30 years ago, and it didn't work out very well.

Speaker C: I feel like that's becoming more and more popular amongst franchisors. Is that.

Speaker A: Yeah, if I just had to guess, I would say probably 80% of them do have corporate units. Again, we tried. It didn't work out very well. Before my time. But I've got Zero desire to try to figure that out. I mean, we're really good at building the tools and supporting franchisees. And then I want the franchisees to know that when they call or email or text us, they're the only ones we're thinking.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: You know, we're not, we're not kind uh, of bogged down. Yeah. So to answer your question, it was very start and stop for, you know, 18 months. I mean, heck, Canada and California alone shut down three times over nine or 12 months. There was a lot of changes. There was a lot of relaxing of policies and guidelines and rules, working with franchisees not holding them compliant and things of that nature. It was a real, I think we got a pretty strong partnership anyway, but it was very partnership oriented during that time. And then I also described Covid as like a storm blowing through an old tree for our brand. We're a 45, 4 year old franchise brand. And the reality is there were some locations that were maybe throwing off nominal profit for a franchisee, but they would keep it open because it was low maintenance. It was maybe one of 20, 30, 50 locations. They're like, Ah, if it's making me 10, 20 grand, it's contributing to overhead. Great, I'll keep it open. Covid comes along and we saw a customer drop for obvious reasons, even when they reopen. And that then prompted people to say, okay, at the end of my first five or ten year lease, I'm probably not going to keep that one open. And along with that, we introduced a new design. So people, uh, had to invest money in upgrading the facilities as well. And so all that stuff combined prompted some folks to say, I'm just not going to renew some of these leases. And yes, even the ones that I would say were a certain maturity level, if you will, in their career at Great Clips and living through Covid, you know, they're like, okay, I made it through this stuff. I'm done, I'm gonna sell. And because of all the government money that had come into the coffers of some of these folks, especially in those states that allowed people to open sooner, the multiples of what the businesses were selling for shot up a fair amount. And so imagine if you're, I'm just gonna, you know, pick a number here. If I'm 62 years old and I say, look, I've been doing this for 25, 30 years, Covid really took the wind out of my sails and my neighbor is willing to pay me X on my business as a multiple of profit. Yeah, it's Time for me to retire. So we had a little bit. We probably saw a 20% spike in transactions taking place, and that's settled back down to a normal level now. So we usually see a couple hundred salons change hands every year, and so let's say actually probably shot up to 300, so maybe 50% higher.

Speaker C: Okay, um, interesting.

Speaker D: So you're kind of contending that going through that storm, going through that almost forest fire, if you will, of the franchisor and the franchisees are almost stronger now. New, fresh blood in there, owning it. And individuals like being able to be sunset as well.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so happy for the folks that retired. In fact, some of them still come to our meetings sometimes and say hi to their old friends. Um, so very happy they made the investment. And I would argue people that come in on the front end of a franchise system are really pioneers, because you have no idea that in 30, 40 years, this brand is going to be on College Football Playoff and NHL Stanley cup and March Madness. You have no, no idea. You're just scrapping it out. And so they really help build the brand. So I'm happy for them where they kind of monetize their hard work as they did throughout the years, but then they sell for a nice multiple. And then, yes, you get folks that see the future, see the potential. Maybe they're in their 30s or 40s or. And they've got the energy to do it for another 20, 30 years. They're like, yeah, I already own 20 salons. I'm going to buy my neighbors 20 salons, build my own empire. And happy for them, too.

Speaker C: I love that.

Speaker D: So, uh, then the most recent run was a, uh, recent promotion from president to president and CEO.

Speaker C: Congratulations.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker D: Now, what sort of responsibilities do you inherit with that CEO title that you didn't have as president?

Speaker A: It's a little bit more on the strategy side, uh, a little bit more involved with industry relations, government relations. I'd say those are some of the major differences. You know, Steve Hockett, our former CEO, who started as a franchisee 37, 38 years ago, and, uh, it spent most of his career at Great Clips. We were very thoughtful and planful in how it transitions. So for roughly two years before Steve retired, December 31st of 2025, he had handed all of the functional, uh, responsibility reporting over to me, which was great. I had already had a number of the departments, but then I took on finance, accounting and legal. And so those were the last couple. And so once I kind of got comfortable with all that, then stepping into the CEO shoes wasn't all that dramatically different, you know, and, and most of the final decisions come m to you. And I say that the same problems we've all had throughout our careers just add more zeros. That's, that's the only difference.

Speaker C: If you think back over the years, uh, throughout your career, what do you think, what was his name? Mr. Cable. And then Rey and Rhoda, what do you think it is that they saw? Because these people, you know, when he gave you the D minus, he obviously saw something in you. And then with Rhoda and Rey saying, you know, fly in the kids, bring Katie, come here. What do you think it is that they sign you that maybe you didn't see in yourself at the time?

Speaker A: Mhm. That's a good question. Well, I think what I've heard over the years is I don't like it when people brag about themselves. So I'm trying not to do that. But I think I stay humble. I try not to be overconfident. I try not to have an ego, certainly try not to be cocky. I always want to learn. I'm always trying to learn. I always think I've got an opportunity to learn from others, to improve myself. And I want to lead by example in that way. So I think that's part of it, like building relationships. I'm fond of getting to know people and before I ask anything of somebody, like, let's get to know each other first, and strong work ethic. I always joke I've tried many hobbies. Not real fond of them. I just like to work and um, all the stuff that comes along with work. So I think the work ethic helps tremendously. And then as I mentioned before, it's things like being willing to say, this is a problem, what are we going to do about it versus just glossing it over or hoping somebody else tackles it. So addressing the elephant in the room and being willing to tackle it and then, you know, performing, getting stuff done, all that other stuff is nice, but if you can't move the needle somehow, then it's kind of meaningless.

Speaker C: I love that. Yeah.

Speaker D: One of my questions is going to be when you think about the individuals that have worked with you that are maybe reporting up to you as a leader now, what sort of attributes do you appreciate from those individuals? Like what do you notice and what do you look for as a leader?

Speaker A: So, you know, a lot of the same stuff.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: And uh, at Great Cliffs we've got six values. I want people to live those values as well and make sure it's coming to life every day. And I'm, I'm less about checking boxes and forms and document and everything. Like, just as we work together, are you a good person? Are you humble and working hard and living our values? One of the key things that I like, and this truly just happened with the gentleman we were talking about that you worked with at Target. You can shout him out. Yeah, Jared Kniepen. Uh, so we had a meeting with several of us and then he shared some thoughts with me that caught my attention and I said, well, let's go my office and talk about that. And so it was just Jared, myself, and we were looking over an email that I thought I had communicated one thing. He took it a different way. The point is that I love it when people give me feedback and when they're not shy about it. Because I've noticed as you climb in an organization, as your title gets a little bigger, a lot of people are afraid to kind of speak their mind, which is not good for an organization. And so Jared was very candid with me and he said, when you did it this way, this is how I took it. And I'm like, oh, I didn't realize that. I hadn't thought about it that way. So I like it when people challenge me and get me to think a little bit differently and, ah, they're not afraid to call out when something isn't working well. And that could be with me. So I'm always looking for feedback and people that want that feedback as well.

Speaker C: I love that because one of the reasons we do the podcast and kind of the Journey to Today is because people get so caught up on titles. Like, you become this title and all of a sudden, you know, not that you haven't worked hard or you don't deserve respect or something like that, but we're still human, right? We're still people, we still have common interests and things like that. So I feel like people become so much more relatable. Like with you growing up single mom, you know, landlord. I mean, you're wondering if bills are going to get paid and things like that, which obviously really helped create who you are today and who you became along the way. You just didn't wake up and you're like, hey, um, I'm Rob Goggins, CEO of Great Clips. And you're just here, you have a story. And I bet you that part of the reason you're that way is because of how you know your journey to today.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I can Remember working for one of the companies early in my career and there was a CEO who was like the quintessential CEO that you would think of. Old school CEO, maybe from like Caddyshack days, you know, he drove the big Cadillac, he wore the checkered pants and was always at the country club on Friday afternoons. I mean all that typical old school CEO stuff and rarely walked the halls of the building. Certainly didn't know most of our names. And not that I thought about it at the time because I never thought I'd lead a company back then, but I can remember thinking that's the kind of leader I would never want to be. And so I think it's, you're on this planet for a short period of time. Let's try to connect with people and be nice and humble and just do our thing and improve results and build people up. And that's what I try to focus on.

Speaker C: I love it.

Speaker D: Refreshing. Yes.

Speaker C: Are you going to ask him your. I mean, you know what? Got it.

Speaker D: Okay. You think I should?

Speaker A: Yeah, let's go for it.

Speaker D: So I like to ask, he has

Speaker C: one question he asks every single person. Can't do it today before we do rapid fire.

Speaker D: Everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face.

Speaker A: I love that quote.

Speaker D: That is this sort of question where when you're going through school, when you're going early in your career, we always think that it's a straight path of success, but it isn't always. And so what was a moment, that was a life quake moment for you where it happened, you thought, I may not professionally recover from this, but looking back now, as the CEO of Great Clips, you can kind of say, but for that happening to me for your three days at Burger King, I'm probably not the person or the leader or the professional that I am here today.

Speaker A: Hm. Well, it sounds like you're looking for a mistake that was made. And I've made plenty. I remember one time I sent a entire truckload of the wrong tape product to the East Coast. This is when I was a customer service rep and they got it and they're like, uh, this is the wrong stuff. And I had to ship a whole truck. I mean, I'm talking semi of tape back and I thought my career in tape is done. And fortunately they overlooked that. Uh, I can remember one time when Rhoda, who co owner of the company and she's very engaged in the business and she's wonderful. I love Rhoda and maybe the hardest working person I've ever met in my life. And I was in a meeting with just like three of us as we're sitting around the table today, Steve Hockett, Rhoda and myself. And I was pushing on this policy. I said, why won't we change this? And she's like, because this is the way we've always done it. And she gave me maybe one or two talking points. And I said, yeah, but the franchisee has expressed concerns about boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I'm not hearing that. And eventually she's like, because I told you, it's not changing. And she was so ticked off. And I thought, my career here is done.

Speaker C: I'm done. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, but she. She got past that, fortunately. But I would say the aha, uh, moment for me is the one I mentioned earlier, where especially working with the gentleman who was a disc jockey before and the gentleman who was a hockey coach, amateur hockey coach, both great guys. The amateur hockey coach went on to become president of one of the brands at Service Brands. And working with both of them and helping them with the process and the talking points and all the sales stuff at the time, and then watching their success was just. It was so fulfilling. Up until that point, I was always, frankly, money driven. Like, how much money can I make? And, yes, I was nice to people and all that stuff too, but up until that point, it was mostly about me. And at that point was a real kind of fork in the road, if you will, professionally.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. Should we do rapid fire?

Speaker D: Let's do it.

Speaker C: All right. Saturday morning. Where would we find you? What do you like to do?

Speaker A: Well, uh, so we've got a dog, a chocolate labradoodle named Augie. And so I usually toss the ball. I make myself coffee, I exercise, then I toss the ball for Augie in the backyard. And then in the summer, we go in my fun car. In the winter, we go in my Yukon, and we cruise around the lake, Lake Minnetonka. And, uh, I listen to a book on audible usually. And then Augie sleeps in the seat next to me and. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that.

Speaker A: Very relaxed. Because my wife likes. She likes to stay up late and then sleep in the m. Morning. So I'm talking at like, 7 o' clock in the morning on Saturday.

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm the morning. I'm not a night. My husband's a night owl. I'm like, uh, I can't do it.

Speaker A: No, I can't do it either.

Speaker D: All right, well, you mentioned audible. In the last six months, one of your favorite Audible listens.

Speaker A: I have been tackling Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand. This is like a classic capitalism type book, but it is a massive book. I think it's 60 some hours. Yeah. And I'm at, like, uh, 11 hours left, so that's been taking up a lot of my. And then prior to that, I know this is like a running joke, but Roman. Um, history. So I listen to 200 podcast episodes on the history of Rome. Yeah.

Speaker C: Oh, my God.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But usually I'm more like, uh, biographies, business stuff, things of that nature. But after, you know, I'm 56, so after 40 years of listening to some of that stuff, it's like, okay, I don't need the time management thing anymore. And so I'm looking for other stuff.

Speaker C: I love it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: If you were a professional athlete, you could play any sport. What position and what sport would you play? Take your pick. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, well, okay, so I grew up in Wisconsin.

Speaker C: And don't say you're going to be a pack.

Speaker A: Well, I know. I'm sorry to do this in Minnesota, but I would probably play quarterback for the packers, partly because, you know, once the packers lock onto a quarterback, they seem to keep around, um, for 10, 15 years. But more importantly, forget about the team is just. It seems like that position is the one that has to process so much information. So I'm part of Vistage, and one of the questions they asked recently when I did my presentation was, what job would you like for one day? And I said, president of the United States. Again, leave aside politics. Blue or red? But just processing all that information, I mean, can you imagine how many briefings you get? And we see the probably 1/10 of 1% that actually goes on. I would love to be part of that and just kind of think about all the major things, process them, make those tough decisions, see how they play out. I think that'd be fun. So quarterback's kind of in that same vein.

Speaker C: I love it.

Speaker D: You said you have two kids? Yes, right now, Jack and Sydney.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah. Sydney is 27 and Jack is 26.

Speaker D: Okay. And do they take after more after you, after Katie, or are they a mix?

Speaker A: So, you know, typical kids, they go down one path and then they pivot, it seems like. So up until maybe 16, 17, Sydney was more on my path, business path. And, uh, then she went to law school. So she went to DePaul undergrad in Chicago, came back here for law school, went back to Chicago, and now she works in nonprofit. And so Katie and her entire family are real givers. And help out the community. And many in my family are, too. They're great people and give back, too. But Katie's family in particular, and so I'd say she takes after Katie. My wife Katie, has a big heart, a really big heart, and is a giver. And so Sydney is working for a nonprofit that helps to deflect. They call it Deflection. So these folks that have maybe, uh, drug, alcohol, mental health challenges, constantly hitting the radar of police departments, fire departments, they help steer those people to the proper resources so they don't get caught up in the same police and fire webs. And so she's doing really good work there. And then our son Jack lives a mile from us in Chanhassen, and he runs his own, uh, snow removal and landscape business. And so I think, man, he had a busy week.

Speaker D: But an entrepreneur.

Speaker A: I love that. Yeah, this is like his third or fourth business, so.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. And he's got the big. I've always wanted to drive a snowplow.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, he's got the big front end loaders and skid steers, and he's doing the big commercial work.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, so he's happy as a pig in mud.

Speaker C: Well, before we sign off, I do want to say congratulations. I wanted to make sure I had the name right. So, as we mentioned, we both serve on the Junior Achievement Board together, and Rob was one of 12 leaders in the entire country to receive the Junior Achievement Goal Leadership Award this year. So awesome. Thank you so much for 10 years on the board. Right.

Speaker A: I know. Time flies.

Speaker C: I can't believe 10 years. And he is such an engaged member. I mean, doesn't just show up, like, just brings people in and phenomenal leaders. So congratulations on the award. I could not let us end without bringing that up. And thank you so much for your service just to our community and everything. And congratulations with everything at great clips, too. And the family. I've always seen great clips and you see them and stuff. And then since I've known Rob, I really pay much more attention. I'm like, oh, my gosh, they've got commercials and all these things. So congratulations and thanks for being here.

Speaker A: Thank you, thank you. This was fun, especially for my first podcast.

Speaker C: There you go. Uh, one and done. There you go. Mic drop.

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