How TUSHY Turned a Taboo Category Into One of DTC's Strongest Brands with Justin Allen

Speaker A: I did every customer service email for the first, like, four or five years of the company. Early on, it was about, like, just made products that people were asking for. So, like, one of the dynamics with our product category is like, there's this, like, toothpaste out of the tube moment. You know, use a bidet, you get used to it. So you can't poop anywhere else. People were asking, oh, you have to make a travel version. That was our second bidet that we ever made was a Tushy Travel. I just was, like, following my nose.

Speaker B: Justin Allen co founded Tushy nearly a decade ago. And we talk about what it takes to build a brand people can't get out of their heads.

Speaker A: Brand is what you uniquely can say that no one else can say or maybe no other competitor can say. The challenge for myself and ourselves and the team is like, how do I create memory structures for people that associate Toshi with bidet or Toshi with joyful toileting? So I want to create a performance, creative orchestra at our company. It means diverse set of humans and partners that deliver ideas and compelling content.

Speaker C: What have you seen being the biggest shift in DTC in the last 10 years?

Speaker A: This is one of them that we're talking about here. Like,

Speaker B: I'm really excited about today's interview with Justin, the co founder of Tushy. Tushy has been one of those brands that I have loved to follow because it's a great example of category creation. Right. The American consumer did not know they needed a bidet. Right. But through amazing content creation and branding, they allowed an audience to realize, hey, I actually need this bidet. And that is what I'm most excited about. To talk about, uh, today with Justin is how did he create this market? How is he thinking about marketing, um, and the challenges there? So get ready. Justin, we are excited to have you here because we have been big Tushy fans. Both our Tushies love Tushy. And we just love what you all have been doing from, uh, Brandon. Branding, a content play, Just the overall vision. Like, when we were redoing our website, we referenced you all because we think you are an amazing D2C brand. And that's why we're very excited for you to be here today. And before we even started recording, we were talking about creative agencies and that whole thing, and you were saying that you wanted a. What. What was it? A performance.

Speaker A: My analogy du jour.

Speaker B: Okay, let's hear it.

Speaker A: I want to create a performance, creative orchestra at our company. You need a lot of volume to feed the beasts that are these platforms.

Speaker B: And the beasts today are like meta TikTok. Like what are your channels when you talk about the beast?

Speaker A: Right. M. Meta TikTok. But M. Meta. Let's, let's focus on meta predominantly and obviously, you know, I think about it through the frame of Instagram, but Facebook is no, no slouch in terms of driving commercial activ. Um, we need a lot of volume.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: There needs to be a quality overlay, of course that volume and there needs to be a strategic overlay of like connecting with who hasn't bought yet your consumer white space. Um, you know we're both, we're all in hard goods. Right. So and predominantly I assume a 1 time to 2 time purchase depending on household needs, et cetera. So it's incumbent upon us to be deeply curious about that next person that's going to buy and connecting with that person, um, either motivators, barriers, et cetera. So that big picture, that big why to me is what I'm attached to. I think Holkin and Toshi have an amazing gen pop prop prop proposition meaning I don't think we need to be beholden to that old adage of talking to everyone is talking to no one. I think these platforms and meta specifically, who talk about today can connect with a lot of people all at once. Um, so long as you're doing that work in a thoughtful, strategic way and an uber creative way that's uniquely your brand. Right. So that's the overlay. And so what I'm hoping to create here soon and we're creating is this analogy of an orchestra. Some of what I've just said is the sheet music of that orchestra. So everyone knows what we're playing.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: And I guess why I've settled on orchestra is just to have folks that come at performance creative and from their own unique vantage point. You know, the uh, different parts of an orchestra. Right. That solves for one of the strategic overlays of diversity. Right. That is feeding us this. I don't know if it's propaganda but this stuff to, you know, you need diversity, you need volume, diversity, diversity. And then it begs the question of well what the F is that?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then what the F is that for us or your brand? Right. So one of the ways I'm thinking about it is like, is this idea of like a create that diversity internally at the company.

Speaker B: So what does that mean?

Speaker A: It means a uh, diverse set of humans and partners that deliver ideas, really ideas and compelling content.

Speaker B: So is most of Your content creation in house.

Speaker A: It's a mix.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: Um. Because I think that's what it takes today.

Speaker C: Yeah. And is it branding content versus ugc, a combination?

Speaker A: Yes, yes, of course. And EGC alphabets soup. Right. So yeah, I went kicking and streaming into. Kicking and streaming. Oh my God. Kicking and screaming into.

Speaker B: While streaming.

Speaker A: While streaming into founder content.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Now I'm kind of enjoying it.

Speaker B: Yeah, of course.

Speaker A: You know, like I. In some way, it's a weird way, I never even post to social media, so getting in front of the camera.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Talking about the brand was a bit of an edge. But I think it's been fun to kind of play with it and to start with like delivering purchase confidence lower in the funnel. And then now playing with this idea of prompting the big picture question. Um, so I have an ad right now which I love, which is like I was just walking down the street one day and I was like, oh, one of my side interests is the disclosure of aliens. Right. And it's like becoming a hot topical this week. Right. So putting aside whether aliens exist or not, I thought it was fun. I was like, what's the connection between aliens and bidets?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: I was on the subway thinking about this and I'm like, oh, I know. Like aliens wouldn't tolerate. If they were here, they were among us. They wouldn't tolerate toilet paper.

Speaker C: No, absolutely not.

Speaker A: They would be like, they would land and be like this is like you guys are creating all this biomatter and then like not effectively cleaning. So I was just like on the street. Just like, you know, I know aliens didn't have it landed yet as I was still wiping on toilet paper. End of ad. I'm playing more with these ads.

Speaker B: So you did that ad.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Like you created that content live on the street.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And how did it perform?

Speaker A: Kind of yapper. It's performing well. And what's more important is the, you know, is the click through is high.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And to me that's one of the things I'm really keyed on and just like driving interest and like getting into that next consumer rather than like feeding meta this like these static ads or bottom of funnel stuff that they'll find someone but it's not going to be so incremental to the business.

Speaker C: But that stands out. It's different. Yeah. It's not like the typical hooks that someone will just.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Scroll through.

Speaker B: And how do you think about the balance between that sort of content and brand? Or is the brand like. I'd be curious to Know, cuz when I think about that feels very brand though. That is. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, but I wonder like, do you have a brand person being like, hey Justin, I don't know, like, I'm just curious to know when you think, can you unleash anything when thinking about the volume?

Speaker C: Isn't that the beauty of Tushi though, and your marketing? In many ways?

Speaker A: Yeah. I think you're kind of answering your own question. I. I think, I don't know, like, I don't think anybody knows what brand is today, right now. Yeah, I think that's. But I have a.

Speaker B: But I think that's. Yeah, that's why I want to hear your thoughts.

Speaker A: I have a playfulness about it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, and I think that's. But that's imbued in our company, but also imbued in who I am and like, I don't know.

Speaker B: Totally.

Speaker A: Like what is, like, what is brand like? When we launched the company in 2015, 2014, like it was so clear that like this, you know, you had a kind of a unique point of view and unique aesthetic and unique voice and that distribution, um, that content you created, got large distribution, consistent distribution and was easy to type. Nowadays it's not that. So I'm releasing that expectation. I've released it a long time ago.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: But I think the challenge for myself and ourselves and the team is like, all right, what is that? We're dealing with that right now. And how do you create memory structures in this old school way of thinking about brands? How do I create memory structures for people that associate Toshi with bidet or Toshi with joyful toileting? I have some hypotheses. Right. Like um, you know, I think it's about. I like the old. That I'm gonna butcher the saying, but I like it. It's like what, what brand is what you. You uniquely can. Can say that no other, no one else can say. I mean no other competitor can say. And so I come back to that and when I look at our ads or look at our program and say, is this something that like fill in the blind competitor would. Would ship?

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: Or is it something that's like so uniquely ah, us. And maybe hey, define uniquely us as something squishy. But like that, it's like you really. It would never come from fill in the blank competitor.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So I think that is kind of what I come to. But I find myself coming to you right now. And then as that kind of infiltrates like the other parts of the orchestra Whether it's ugc.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: UGC is a little easier because it's like us.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but UGC is like it's. You have to let go. You have to let the creators be the creators and speak to in their unique way. So I think as it affects ugc, I think about it like, you know, we have the. With Tushy, we, we, we. We really stand on an authentic tone and an authentic way of speaking and elevating voices, elevating conversations.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: That aren't a part of the day to day life that maybe should be.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Attacking taboos that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Misguided.

Speaker C: Like that's a huge part of silly story.

Speaker A: I guess we're in, we have that. We have. I feel like we're in a nice unique position from a creator perspective. A UGC perspective specifically is to. Is to just let them do their thing.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And let authentically joyful and make sure people are laughing and learning.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, I love that. And so that's what we come back to. And I feel fortunate to be able to like let folks have free reign.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I have a misgiving about the whole brand building of it all. To your original question of like, what are we leaving in our wake? I don't know if we're leaving much in our wake, honestly, but I hope we are.

Speaker C: And it sounds like brand is integral to that performance orchestra. So they kind of interact very closely.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh, I think as from a brand perspective as we get, as. I hate using the funnel analogy, but I'll use it to just a shorthand like as you get down funnel, I think we can get more precious about look, feel.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And connecting and living in that Venn diagram of what is your brand quote unquote. And like what, what works on that media channel. But it's not this like dogmatic thing. We never were dogmatic.

Speaker C: No. Yeah, totally. Um, humor is so integral. You do. As far as content.

Speaker A: Yeah. What's the point otherwise?

Speaker C: Yeah, no, totally.

Speaker A: You know, we're, we're, we're making toileting joyful, but we're also talking about butts and poop and cleaning your tush.

Speaker C: Like there's no choice. Like it's a part of it.

Speaker B: I should have worked at your company.

Speaker C: Oh my God. Uh, yeah. This is lazy.

Speaker B: I'm all over it, like talking about all those things. I'm going to leave health, everyone.

Speaker C: I think so she's a part of Tushy now.

Speaker A: It's a really. Yeah. I mean everyone. It's a part of everyone's home life, right. And even if you don't talk about it with your friends, and we call them clean Slaters, the people that uh, you don't want to get in and out and don't want to pretend like it never happens, some people are like that, right? And some people are maybe like you or me and like, oh, I can't stop talking about it and stop please. But that's okay. Like we have all different kinds of humans and we celebrate those and try to connect with them in their unique way. But that's what we're tapping into too. Of like there is an inherent virality to our product. But it has to be that magic of brand and product. You can't just be selling a butt washer and like not have a point of view for brand because like, it's like a weird. It doesn't give people the permission to talk about it in a way that's impactful or convincing or authentic.

Speaker B: And how many ads are you running? Just thinking about the overall orchestra. How many ads are you running in any given week?

Speaker C: Volume. What is that? Volume?

Speaker B: What's that volume? And how many new creatives are you testing per week?

Speaker A: Not enough.

Speaker B: Okay, but what is.

Speaker C: But what is.

Speaker B: What's your like. But what would you like to be running?

Speaker A: I'd like to be running, uh. Oh yeah. It depends on the time of year and what we're trying to accomplish and what. You know, I'm, I'm. I'm really hot on Persona led marketing right now as a filter to kind of make sense, as a framework to make sense of the, this chaotic media environment that we're deploying ads and money into. Um, not that I think it's the end all be all. It's just one lens that we're excited about right now today. But listen, I think it depends on your advice. It depends on your ad spend.

Speaker B: Hm.

Speaker A: And what you're trying to accomplish and what you're seeing working, et cetera. But for us, we're trying to tie it to driving the level of engagement we want to see. We want to see the total business equation makes sense. And we want to really scrutinize that like pipeline.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: You know, it is a supply chain. So scrutinize the pipeline of. All right, do we have enough quote unquote winners? How do we defining winners in our account? Are we a little like dry on winner? Like is there stuff like kind of aging and so. But I think I hesitate to put a number out there because I don't know how instructive it is because, like, we've gone on our own journey and I encourage everyone else to go on their journey of saying, what is my ad account need? What can I support from a budget perspective to make the total business equation work? Start there. And then your budget kind of dictates, I imagine, your ad volume. But it's not about like I've talked about. It's not just quantity.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It is quality. But I am getting, I am getting more curious and excited about a greater quantity of testing. Um, just so long as our testing like has a clear goal.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And measurement.

Speaker B: But that's something that we're exploring right now too.

Speaker C: And you've been at the DTC game much longer than us. We're fairly new, five years old. We were software founders for the last 10 years before that. What have you seen being the biggest shift in DTC in the last 10 years?

Speaker A: This is one of them that we're talking about here. What does brand me mean in the face of the media environment today? The fragmented media environment, the fragmented media consumption. Um, how do you connect with people in a way that is incremental? And so I think that's the biggest thing. The length of content, the storytelling you have permission to do is fundamentally changed from the early days of, um, direct to consumer. Some of the dynamics that were at play that it's outside of performance creative, I know are I think, some ways good and healthy. You should have a brand that means something to people that gives you permission to command a gross margin that, that help support a thriving business and a thriving idea out in the world. Um, you should innovate from a product perspective in remarkable ways that connect with consumer attentions and consumer wants, needs they didn't even know they had. And you should innovate with what I call motable features in mind, like things that people care about that become uniquely yours and uh, either through traditional means of IP or untraditional, um, means. But these are all really just healthy business practices for our brand.

Speaker C: And talk to us.

Speaker A: And it's been a force function.

Speaker C: Yeah, talk to us about product expansion. Because now you started with the bidet and now you've gone through many iterations of that, but also expanded beyond that. And what was the path towards identifying those products which were going to be winners, which weren't kind of guide us through that thought process.

Speaker A: It's, it's uh, every, like everything else has evolved through the, through our business history. Right. I think early on I, I'm slow to fire myself, which is a good founder lesson. Or, you know, but I. So as an example, I, I did every customer service email for the first, like four or five years of the company. And like, I wouldn't do it again, but I probably. I would still do it, but I probably wouldn't do it as long as I did. But, like, early on it was about, like, just go made products that people were asking for. So, like, one of the dynamics at art with our product category is like, there's this like toothpaste out of the tube moment. You know, use a bidet, you get used to it. So you can't. You can't poop anywhere else. So you go. So people were asking, oh, you have to make a travel version. Uh, so that was our first. That was our first bidet. Our, uh, second bidet that we ever made was a tushy Travel.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so that. That was, you know, the one I didn't know about consumer insights work. I didn't know about jobs to be done. Yeah, I had no idea. I didn't know. I. I just was like following my nose. You.

Speaker C: Um, so much of that is being an entrepreneur is just kind of. A lot of it is gut feeling. Like, I feel like it's a part of your DNA to kind of get a sense from your audience.

Speaker A: It's the marriage of gut feeling. And I think that one of the things that I've really enjoyed through the art, uh, now over 10 years of existence is like bringing on experts and learning from them. And so I didn't know what jobs to be done was, you know, when we started the company, but now I do, and sometimes I call it in as a useful tool to then uncover that next insight to build a product around. Um, and it's become a really helpful vocabulary for us for our innovation roadmap. And now we have an innovation roadmap. And now we have different tiers of launches, and we've really matured the way we think. But also it is a balance because I found myself over indexing at times on that academic exercise of let me get deeply curious about the customer making science. And then there are times when I just want to flip the table over. I'm just like, I'm tired of this meeting. This is bullshit. Let's just build, like, what do they. What do people want? What do we want? Like, we're in a category that no one's ever built before.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Like, what. What do we want? Like, stop asking.

Speaker B: Yeah, totally.

Speaker A: Um, so it is that. And that's where founders and CEOs and leaders need to. Need to call balls and strikes.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because if you don't and you have people that are used to a certain way of working that's going to win out and that'll slow you down.

Speaker B: Yeah. We were just talking about this. Like speed, I think is the most important ingredient to a company because it's how you move quickly on opportunity but also not waste too much time on bad decisions and just, yeah, fail quickly. And we were saying, like, it's very hard for anyone to work at Hulken that doesn't have the tolerance for like the chaos that comes with speed. Because we move so quickly, we often aren't thinking about every single step. So we obviously have emergencies like every single week because we haven't planned all the things that are going to come. But it allows us to be incredibly nimble. Um, and I'd be curious to know, how does speed play a role in how you run tushy today? And it sounds like it does play a role, but I am, I would love to hear, like, very, um, actionable insight on that, on how you're applying speed today in your processes.

Speaker A: Yeah, this is a journey I've gone on too, um, with speed and like where you want to be speeding up and where you want to be slowing down to move fast or whatever the saying could be. Your question first is making me think of recruiting. And I think. And like you kind of let in with the question. Like, I've learned that we need to recruit people that are insatiably curious and have a bias to action.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I don't ask those questions directly in interviews, but I'm looking for. Maybe I shouldn't publicize this now everyone, because now everyone. Yeah, but you know, it's, it comes, it shows up obviously in the way people answer questions. And so I'm not going to lead anyone to the answer, but there isn't an answer. Um, and I think that solves some of it because if you have this like, team that just is leaned in and just like can't help themselves to be curious about what's next. That's the software or whatever. And then, you know, organizationally it's about, you know, for me, like, I, I really try to be intentional about how I show up to a meeting and thinking about before, especially when I'm meeting, when I'm trying to get things moving, like, what's my point of view going into the meeting and what do I need to know that will either push me one way or the other to make sure we're landing the plane at the end of this meeting and moving the ball forward. And that's just a leadership thing that I've learned. Ah, managing people. Um, we have a team that's more than 10, unlike y'.

Speaker C: All.

Speaker A: Um, so I think that it's helped. There are places where we don't go super fast because, you know, we have plumbing products that are under pressure 24 hours a day.

Speaker C: And that's the world of physical products.

Speaker A: Yeah, physical products.

Speaker C: More so in your case.

Speaker A: Yeah. So in a heart, like, you know, so there are places where we're just like, really locked in and I don't have any, like, compromise in me.

Speaker B: Yeah, of course.

Speaker A: But there are other places in the especially vis a vis innovation where it's like, all right, let's move fast. Um, but failure. Failure with certain product categories isn't an option.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And failure in some categories is an option.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, um, so I think there, you know, it's not one thing or the other. It's about reading, like, being. Understanding what category you're moving into and like, what you're designing for and being clear about, like, all right, failure is an option here. Or, um, you know, with, with plumbing and water, it's like, ain't an option. No. So like, we need to be locked in. We need to be locked in on the experience and test the hell out of these things. Um, one, uh, thing I do key in on and like, vis a vis speed is like, is something I say a lot. The company is learning velocity. And so, um, we're launching. We just launched a fiber gummy.

Speaker C: Right, I saw that.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. And the vision of Tushy is to make toileting delightful from gut to butt to bowl and beyond.

Speaker B: I love it.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a silly Buzz Lightyear line, but it's an important idea. And so the gut statement, the gut part of that statement is what we're living into partially this year.

Speaker B: And how did the gummy idea even come about? Like a subscription business kind of thing or.

Speaker A: Sure, it solves that.

Speaker B: Like from a business economics. How did you try?

Speaker A: You really try. And you should not be leading with business problems. Yeah, of course, that's maybe something I'm a little more dogmatic about, but like, but with fiber as a general proposition, I'm very keyed into learning velocity.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Like, how fast are we learning about what connects to people in a really interesting way? Um, from a creative perspective, like, how much. How many ads are we deploying each week? What are we learning on our PDPs.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker A: Um, and looking at our subscription opt in rates and what are we learning on the, you know, post purchase? So yeah, you know, that, that the team really, I think, grasp and understands. Um, so that that helps us move fast too. Cause then you're. Then you're compounding.

Speaker C: Yeah. You know, every week you move faster. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And are uh, there any tools you use to help you get that insight better and visualize what you need to know on. On that front that I don't know, like, it's one thing that hulk. And we're exploring better ways to understand just how we're doing across the board. We're on Shopify. Right. But like we need. It's not like we're on a north beam. Right. Or triple whale. And I'm just curious to know, like, are you using any of these tools? Have they been helpful in this understanding what's working, helping you answer the question of what's next?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's both like these, these tools that are off the tip of the. The tongue of most ETC founders, but also, um, internal tools where you have like high data integrity. You know that what you're looking at is your source of truth.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It's simple. Um, but it allows you to kind of understand what's happening and move m. So it's a balance. So yeah, we use some of these tools, of course, because it allows the team to do their job and the way they know how to do it in the best way possible and to get clear on, you know, whether on your own perspective on an attribution and how to allocate towers between channels and then et cetera. But at the end of the day, it's also about like our. A Google Sheet, you know, as simply as that is like is, you know, we use a number of Google sheets that are live trackers of the business that. Not that I'm like, I guess I'm not proud to say that. I am proud to say that like, I think simple is sometimes better and also it gives people the clarity, um, to move. So. But it's a balance. It's both. Right. I'm not like, I do think that our SaaS is way too fragmented, you know, and I would love to consolidate tools. Oh my God. Uh, so much, you know, and I think that's a long time coming.

Speaker C: It's like so many times. Oh gosh.

Speaker A: And the number of apps we have on our Shopify instance is plugins.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: We do, uh, a plugin review every quarter.

Speaker B: Yeah. We're like why?

Speaker C: Who installed that one?

Speaker B: No, and then I lost that.

Speaker A: You do a review every quarter.

Speaker C: We have to.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That was something we learned too. We audit. Have an audit process for all of our vendors. Yeah, Yeah, I love that stuff too.

Speaker B: What is your favorite Shopify tool? Uh, like right now. That just comes to mind when I say that, like, I love Tolstoy. It allows us to integrate UGC on our pdp. Like, that has been helpful. Rebuy. Like, are you using of these?

Speaker A: Yeah, we've used them all them before.

Speaker B: Is there one that I can remember

Speaker A: if we're still on Tolstoy or not? I'm sure there's something that I'm like, like putting my finger on.

Speaker C: It's going to come back on.

Speaker A: I used to, I used to be the guy installing all these apps, you know, so I have an affection for the apps. I, you know, like a simple one. Advanced shipping rules. I have an affection for. Do you know this app?

Speaker C: I don't think we know how small.

Speaker A: It just allows us to buy Geo, you know, override shipping rules. You know, for Canada, it allows us a lot of flexibility. Um, in cart, the team likes pdq.

Speaker B: Yeah, we love pdq.

Speaker C: We love pdq.

Speaker A: Yeah. Just to give a plug there. Yeah, I think, you know, that's in carts.

Speaker C: That's what I thought about it. In cart. And.

Speaker B: Oh, avi AI pretty damn quick.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: And so much of your story is DTC glory branding that you've built and what's your view on retail and how does that play in what you're doing?

Speaker A: Yeah, I have a playful curiosity here. Well, you know, and that's my filler for like, I don't know, but like, I'll figure it out. Retail for a bleeding, uh, edge category is going to be a lagging indicator of, um, adoption. Right. So, you know, we have to be realistic about where demand for bidets, at least our beachhead category lives in person.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and that's where I start. And then, then I also am deeply curious about, like, just getting people to try the product.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And less about like, quote unquote, this transactional retail thing. But also, like, how do we just like, show up in places where it'll be memorable to people?

Speaker C: How does that manifest? Like, how do you actually execute?

Speaker A: I'll let you know.

Speaker C: But you mentioned restaurants, right? Coffee shops.

Speaker A: Yeah. There are a lot of places where you would. One would figure that they would like a bidet and then it's not there. And for all the bidet users out there, I'm sure they all can. That resonates where you're like, oh man. Yeah, my day would have been better if I wasn't stuck in this coffee shop bathroom without a bidet. Yeah, look, places like that, that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, so I think that I'm excited about traditional retail partners that actually want to partner and like do something really cool in store and create. Create and like where we can provide some newness and excitement to the store. But also, um, that it's a true partnership. Um, and that's what I'm, I'm really looking for. Not like racing to something and do

Speaker B: you do any like B2B? I'm just thinking like, like B2B opportunities. Like I'm thinking like these massive office spaces. Right. Where probably they're thinking about a like employee perks, but every employee is using the restroom. Like I'm curious if that is an interesting sales. Like have you explored those types of sales channels beyond just the like individual consumer?

Speaker A: Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There are so many opportunities for like a product like ours in terms of like showing up in wholesale. But for sure that makes a lot of sense. Um, you know, new residential development, um, makes a lot of sense. Hospitality, of course makes sense to some extent. We have to put shots on goal in those sales streams but also acknowledge that those are a long lead. You're running into a lot of decision makers.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: That um, you have to convince and get. And again, it's going to be a lagging indicator of category adoption if you run into a decision maker that doesn't have a bidet at home. I know I got a problem. Not a problem. But I know I'm like, oh man, this is not the thing they're going to wake up excited to do and, and put their neck on the line. Especially these larger organizations where like people are very risk averse.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, and they don't want to like, why? Um, you know, if I'm fill in the blank, big hotel chain and I'm this person who doesn't really even get the cat, why am I gonna go put something in the room that could like people are gonna potentially spray themselves with, you know, so you know, it's some of that.

Speaker C: Mhm. Yeah. And it's the kind of product like Hulk and until you try it, you're not sure, you know, but then you try it and like holy shit.

Speaker A: Yeah. Toothpaste out of the tooth.

Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, no, totally.

Speaker A: 100%. So yeah, we have these conversations. We want to create cool experiences IRL and get people to see it and try it and feel it. Um. But it's properly. I try to properly prioritize.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: But I'd be curious to know how are you thinking about TikTok Shop? And it's something that we are exploring as hulkin and we're so new to the space of TikTok and it operates very differently the meta for us which is our largest paid channel.

Speaker C: We kind of feel like we figured

Speaker B: it out finally but it took us a long time. It took us agency.

Speaker C: Yeah. It took a lot of hard work

Speaker B: and headaches and I'm just curious like how has that channel been for, for you all?

Speaker A: I mean you, you tell me, tell me your ways. I uh. It's the same story for us.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: They make it so meta native probably like us.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I, I think it's about learning velocity to come back to a theme and, and to your point of like changing agencies makes a lot of sense. It's that idea of learning velocity.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like definitely not signing a one year deal with your TikTok Shops agency right now, unfortunately for them. But like you gotta, you gotta juke and jive or whatever the word is and like figure it out and figure out like what that product channel fit looks like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I think we all have conviction that there's a uh, there, there in terms of consumer demand like that that were passed down. So I think everyone, and it's a comment upon everyone who's a founder directing from a founder to be really curious about what that channel fit looks like and what the pricing strategy looks like, what the innovation strategy looks like. So that's where my head's at of like how do we innovate for the channel?

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: You know, I know K shaped economy can be debated about whether it's real or not. It doesn't matter. I think the fact of the matter is there's going to be people that want to buy your brand but. But the price point doesn't work for them. And TikTok shops is definitely this kind of price sensitive or discount heavy discoverer. Definitely um, consumer. So like you know when you have a limited assortment of SKUs which we had originally, it limits your ability to do the things to activate against a channel in a way that meets the channel where it's at rather than you like force feeding it.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's an entirely new way of thinking. I love that you raised the topic of being curious throughout the episodes in your employees, in yourself and it sounds like that's kind of the, uh, leading signal in everything you do.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I don't know what other way to be. You know, like, try to laugh a lot. And I know it's cheesy to say laugh a lot. It's so cheesy. It's so cheesy. And I'm not laughing a lot. All the time, like, people at work and be like, this guy's so serious all the time. I'm serious about being joyful.

Speaker B: I feel like you just have, like, a serious face and then you could probably be very joyful. I feel like your face, like, if you came into a meeting, I'd be like, this is a serious man. But then, like, I'm sure you're just serious about being joyful.

Speaker A: Yeah. I'm fiercely joyful is one way to describe myself. Really? Yeah. I'm serious about the impact we want to drive. I tell people that, like, atushi were nice but not chill. It feels like truth telling.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So. But yeah, curiosity for sure. Like, this is the only way to be, Especially in the face of, like, everything shifting under our feet right now. Um, and it's the only way to kind of survive but also thrive.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So deeply curious about who we can serve next and what we can create in the world and how do we connect with people.

Speaker C: Yeah. Amazing. Well, this is great. Thank you. So nice having you.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's great to be here.