Chapter 3: How to choose the right market to compete in

Speaker A: Welcome to another episode of the Uncut Podcast. In this show, we'll teach you how to build, execute and scale a modern demand gen engine from scratch. It's brought to you by myself, Jasper Greif, and my friends in tech, Ted Van Den Berg and Jasper Hisink. Welcome, gents.

Speaker B: Good morning.

Speaker C: Thank you. Good morning.

Speaker A: What are we discussing today?

Speaker C: Market research.

Speaker A: Right, Market research, exactly. Uh, we'll do a deep dive into what it is, its importance, how you should do it, and then last but not least, also some examples, some awesome ones, but also some awful ones, so that the audience gets to understand what not to do versus, you know, what awesome looks like.

Speaker C: Yep. And what did we discuss last week last time?

Speaker A: Good question. Answer for Ted to see if he's still with us.

Speaker B: I think we tackled the ICP bit, right?

Speaker A: We did tackle the ICP bit. Absolutely.

Speaker B: So this is the second input for better positioning.

Speaker A: Totally.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, let's start with the what. So the topic is market research, and I'm looking to understand its definition. So what do we actually mean with market research?

Speaker C: Yeah, I'll go. Um, what we mean with market research is really understanding the playing field, understanding what sort of domain you're going to enter. Um, you have some things that fall under that. What does the playing field means? But maybe Ted has some, uh, extra ideas there.

Speaker B: Yes, it's like understanding the rules of, uh, the game. So are you playing hockey or are you playing ice hockey? Like, it's a different, it's the same sport, but it's a different environment. So the tactics and like, how you play up the game, uh, they, they differ. And the word research always makes it very. Oh, it should be very difficult or extensive or big. Um, but it's just you understanding what you need to focus on and use it as input for better positioning and therefore input, uh, for better marketing strategy.

Speaker A: So what specifically do you mean when you say what do you need to focus on?

Speaker B: It's more of like, what kind of tactics and strategies make sense in the environment. So for me, I break down. I don't know if we want to dive in there straight. But like, for me, market research is understanding. Like, who are you playing against? Like, what are your competitors? Um, what are cultural aspects? Um, what's the category you're playing in? What, how does the ecosystem as a whole look like? What are other companies that are complementary to you? Or maybe some of the big influencers and authoritative persons in the space.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think you're hitting the nail on the head. There's, however, one important Thing that I think should be added because you said something about tactics right away and I was like, okay, hard disagree there. But then you started about all of these other things and I think that's actually where the magic happens because at the end of the day at least in my view it's all about the feasibility. Like is there room for me as a company with my company to be successful in this space? And this space could be uh, the market, the Netherlands or Category xyz. But at least is there enough room for me to do business with enough companies so that I can build a sustainable business myself?

Speaker C: Yeah. And what do you need to understand in order to know if you can fill that place? So what is that playing field that you need to understand?

Speaker A: Totally. But uh, let's park that question and first move into the why because we've now covered the what. Um, and one essential question that I'm looking to ask is where I'm looking to get an answer to is why do we feel like it's vital to take this step?

Speaker C: Um, I think a very important thing of having to do research why it's important because I mean you basically touched upon as well, right. It allows you to understand um, if there's a opportunity for you in that segment, whatever that segment is geographically or product category, um, but also what um, sort of position you take in that market. So where's that white space that you're going to fill with your, with your brand and product?

Speaker A: Love that great take.

Speaker B: It helps you prepare.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: You can go to market without any preparations and you might uh, fall into the ten obvious traps. Ah. So I think the exercise, the reason to do the exercise is to make less mistakes or to just filter out like the obvious uh, potholes that mhm. You would otherwise like learn the hard way by spending a lot of money and people and resources to go in there.

Speaker A: So you said to make less mistakes. So why do you then think that it's often overlooked like this exercise as a whole?

Speaker B: Um, first of all it's owned by like let's say in a typical organization is like a product marketing manager that's taking up this research. Like it's uh, an input for the overall strategy but it's like specific to, to a product marketer. Many organizations don't have a product marketer, uh, or haven't prioritized that role. So then it's an easy um, step to just forget about the research or just go on what you have experienced in the past and focus on the goals, the tactics, the fancy campaigns. Um versus really diving in deep before, before you want to do so.

Speaker A: You said this should be the responsibility of a product marketer. Do you think that's actually true?

Speaker C: Yes. That or GTM team, um, could fulfill that role or leadership. M. I do think what that is sort of implying is that where it often is overlooked or where it feels is that ownership of this is not very clear often.

Speaker B: What do you think?

Speaker A: I don't think it should be with product marketing at all.

Speaker B: Why not?

Speaker A: I think product marketing should definitely lead the gtm. M as soon as the decision has been made to go to a certain market. But I think the decision to go to a certain market to enter it should definitely come from the top. And maybe you want to deploy a product marketer to get the insights you need along with like a BI team or whatever it might be. But I think the whole board and preferably the CEO should have a certain certainty that this is the market to move into.

Speaker C: Yeah, but do they then do the, the market research or who has the ownership of actually doing the, the research itself?

Speaker A: Well, that's a good question. I think it just can't be delegated. Like, okay, you guys figured it out and see if it works. And then if that market happens to fail or that sub industry, then okay, you suck and let's get a new product marketer. No, I think it should really be owned by the CEO and then he can involve whoever he wants to involve. Whether that is, like I said, a data analyst or a product marketer or I don't know, you're, you're, you're head of sales. I don't really mind, but I think the decision to go somewhere and like getting the full picture should definitely sit with leadership.

Speaker C: I have a, um, I have a bit of a different view there also, um, based on experience, how we used to. Who owns marketing or market research is that if you have a gtm, um, team or, or a person, let's call them a vp gtm, then a product marketer is part of that team together with other marketers and sales team and they decide on the market research. They do all the collection, they do all the analysis and present a plan to senior leadership who then gives a go and is of course part of the decision making process, but never really part of the actual research phase.

Speaker A: I don't disagree with that. I just think it's too simple to say, okay, we don't have a product marketer, so we skip this exercise altogether and let's expand.

Speaker C: That's also not what I was Hearing.

Speaker B: Agreed. But the reason why it's Skip, because most CEOs they have 100 things on their right. They don't have this on their radar. And the second thing what I heard you say Jasper, is in terms of when going to a new market. For me market research is not only when you go to a new market, it's also your current market that you're in and trying to better understand that playing field. So it's not only activated when you're going abroad.

Speaker C: That's something that we discussed uh, in the previous episode about ICP and target accounts. That one of the things that often goes wrong is that it's a one off exercise and that is often also with, with market research. Right. That you do it once and you, you don't continuously update it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Something I was going to add that typically in the whole market is actually fine because the entrepreneur has got some sort of feel like okay, I spotted this opportunity in this specific market that I have experience in or whatever and because of that exact reason I'm going to build a product and I already know like some influencers in the space and then when I launch it I'm very and very vulnerable, involved myself because I don't have any customers yet. So I'm going to be very closely on the ball in order to get you know, the feedback that I need to get a feel for whether I have a chance to succeed. But then when they go abroad essentially all of that kind of like falls away because there is a business already and they have revenue coming through. And some people even get kind of cocky like you know, thinking they ah, are about to dominate the whole world

Speaker C: or the market solves the problem differently. Um, I think to sort of also relate it to demand gen because it's a demand gen podcast. Um, we see also with a lot of our clients they're, they're operating in a, in a crowded market and not really understanding what that landscape looks like. It's very difficult to win attention and uh, mental availability.

Speaker B: I've actually won like I could give like a quick practical example in terms of like how if you do great marketing market research, like how it can improve your uh, your demand gen or your tactics. Um, today I'm going to bring two examples from Berlin. One great one and one bad example. But just to give you one quick one on Berlin and a company that actually did really good research there. Somebody told me this story. It's like they want to move to the German market. Um, they do all the research like hey, what's going on there. How does this country work? 9 out of 10, uh, B2B SaaS companies, they go to Dach as the first step or the whole German market. And they were selling to e commerce companies. They analyzed the market, understood the dynamics, the different players there, the different um, complementary partners, and they understood that there's this very strong E commerce community in Berlin. So how do you use it to their advantage is saying, hey, we're not going to go to Germany to expand. We're just going to go to Berlin and focus all our efforts with local events, local marketing, uh, local hires to then use that market research, understanding how the uh, ecosystem works and then using it for, for the go to market motion.

Speaker A: Solid.

Speaker C: Nice example.

Speaker A: Uh, ties into a question I was going to ask what happens when you do it successfully? But let's flip the script and you know, ask ourselves the questions. What happens when you don't do it?

Speaker B: I can give second brilliant example already if we want.

Speaker A: Well, in this specific case, let's not talk into examples, but just like, okay, what is the overall state that the business enters into, at least from your experience, if this whole market research part is skipped either from a home market or an expansion point of view?

Speaker C: I'd say there are several different kind of risks involved. Um, I say one is you place yourself in a category that no one, nobody in that market or segment either cares about or isn't buying a certain solution for m at the moment. Um, maybe positive at that, but that, that would be a big risk of not doing marketing market research.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Just putting your eggs in a basket. That's. That basket isn't really there, right?

Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. And I think it's kind of good to separate the whole market here again from expanding in the home market. I think it will be a very, very silent killer. Right, because you already have some sort of success and you have a sales team that has historically sold successfully to that market. You have a certain amount of market share. So it will be a very slow but painful exercise to eventually realize like, okay, I'm actually losing market share. And because of who is that? Like who entered the market and why are we all of a sudden no longer able to like compete successfully for deals that we previously always won? So I think that will be very slow, very silent, very painful eventually. Whereas if you enter a new market, hopefully at least for the business you're working for, it'll become apparent very, very quickly because you enter typically with like, um, you know, the heavy artillery, big sales team, perhaps a local office, all of the things that your GTM team will think you need in order to thrive in that market and then just a couple of months in expenses are through the roof and perhaps new business in is very, very low. And then you just enter some sort of panic mode because your burn rate goes way faster than you think. You haven't been able to close new deals. So literally no revenue comes through. The board will get together and yeah, I guess that's kind of the state that you'll find yourself into.

Speaker B: I get the urgency play or like I said, I know I was reading on the news last week like the code red or war status or all these kind of uh, places where you all focus on like short term efforts, whereas like going to another market is like long term effort, like long term vision. And then if you try to solve it with quick, quick tactics because you're behind on the plan, like it's very hard to recover from that uh, from that place. What you're describing.

Speaker C: Maybe one final thing to, to add if I can go for it. I think doing, not doing market research enough or not doing it and you enter market. It's, it's pretty hard to differentiate yourself. Right. Because this is the episode that uh, eventually will tie into positioning and messaging you. It's very hard to differentiate yourself if you don't do the market research and understand what the other players are already saying. Right. And then an example that I keep seeing is for instance tools that use AI powered insights. If, if you enter a new space and already five, six companies in the field are already using AI powered insights, there's not that white space that I mentioned earlier for you to sort of take that position in that market.

Speaker A: I love that differentiation.

Speaker B: Yeah, interesting because we, you're saying there's like the, sometimes the, what we went through earlier in terms of categories or software categories. Some countries a software software category is very much like known and apparent and everybody's searching for it. I know in one of my previous jobs like uh, learning experience platform was a very big uh, name or like the big next wave as like a key category. Then in some countries in Europe that was not a thing at all. And like a quick way to check it is you could just use like um, the keyword planner and just see, hey, how popular is this software category? Or you go to G2 or some of the other platforms just to say hey, we think we can win this category. Um, but uh, it can be a different uh, setup per country.

Speaker A: Nice tactic making it practical. Perhaps that's also a nice bridge to Actually, you know, doing the work because one of our promises when it comes to this podcast is obviously that people walk away knowing how to do it. So let's start with like the million dollar question. What is, you know, if you were to do this, the must answer question for people to get an answer to.

Speaker B: I think for me, like in terms of the must answer question, with market research, if we break it down into different brackets, that's looking at competitors, it's just making a very simple two by two, uh, table and find your white space. So see where all like, I don't know, the uh, the capturers of the world or the gardeners, they make their own matrixes. But I think it makes sense for, for your own company to um, plot yourself and then choose the axis wisely so that you find your own, uh, your own white space against the other competitors.

Speaker A: I think in some cases it doesn't hurt to actually repeat ourselves because I think the million dollar question here is just, is there enough room for me to build a healthy business in this segment? And if the answer is no to that, you can look at a gazillion other things, metrics, competitors, whatever it might be. But if there's no room, there's no room. If you choose a different market, different category, whatever it might be, that would

Speaker B: you like what will be the key indicators and if there's room or no room?

Speaker A: Yeah, obviously that's the whole exercise that we're doing. You already touched upon competitors. I think that's a, uh, that's a very good one. As a matter of fact. I think it starts with that understanding what their focus is or are they SMB oriented or mid market or enterprise, understanding how good of a product they have, um, to see, okay, if this, let's say they operate in the SMB space. And that's also what I have in mind. Am I going to be able to be them? Yes or no? The answer is a hard no. Plus, I don't have the funding nor the firepower, so the team to actually turn it around. I would probably pull out right away and choose a different market. Um, when it comes to these competitors, I would also look at, okay, how powerful are they? So how big of an army do they have or how much funding did they get in? Um, if their team is not very big, but they already have a super solid product and then they got a whole lot of funding in. So pretty much all of the um, ingredients are there in order to scale an already super successful product. Yeah, you know, it's going to Be very, very tricky to be successful in that market.

Speaker C: Can I add something there? I think, um, to me that market research, what you need to get answers to is like three different parts, one being the product category and the trends in that which, that you just mentioned. Checking what the search volume is in that specific region is one. But also, indeed, what are investors investing in in certain companies? Um, G2 categories could be another one that is pretty, pretty. Okay. The other one is for instance, competitors, but also especially what our competitor. Right. So I would always check their homepage or the LinkedIn ads library or the Google Ads, uh, what are their sale results. And then finally, I think one that we haven't touched yet that I think could be nice is to see if there are already communities like subreddits there or Slack communities or stuff like this and to really understand, okay, what are the end buyers talking about? Right. What are they complaining about or what are they celebrating? And, um, those three could be a nice sort of formation to having a good market. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, in the end it helps you make unique choices or like better decisions for the company. As like this being I know going through, it's a street strategic exercise. So let's say for in a scenario in my past, most US tech companies, when they go to Europe, they do exactly the same playbook, right? They go to France, they go to the UK and they go to Germany. Because you just look at like, what's the population, like, what's the GDP and where do I have the biggest opportunity to sell? Um, but doing great marketing research can actually, uh, give you unique insights. Say, hey, maybe we should not focus on these key markets that everybody else is doing because that's the default. Like, that's easy to sell because everybody else is doing that. But you say like, hey, actually it makes sense for us to go to, uh, Poland and um, Romania, uh, or make those unique choices that will give you, uh, an advantage over the others.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, you know, your example of Poland versus Romania is very interesting because a lot of people will see, for instance, the US is like the promised land because it's the biggest market and you know that the buying power is there. And buying power will also be an important criteria to most companies or owners looking to expand. Um, but yeah, if the size of the market is big enough and let's say the market is developing and kind of like the industry you're looking to sell into will likely, based on the research you have done, have the buying power to do it. Yeah. Then you might be dealing with A blue ocean. And that is some sort of, you know, ideal scenario. All right. Um, one that I would add is, uh, is the size of the market, so the number of accounts and literally just revenue to be earned. If that's, uh, big enough, then, um, you know, I can imagine that that's, uh, an important criteria that you'd like to see. Uh, answered, um, one question I would also ask myself as an, as an owner. So if I was to listen to this podcast and I would be looking for nuggets to take away is, you know, uh, after doing this research, what am I really hoping to see?

Speaker B: As in. You mean like the owner doing that, showing the research, or how do you mean it?

Speaker A: No, as in what am I hoping to see? So let's say the outcome of the research has been done, uh, as has come through now, what is kind of like the picture that I want to see that will make me decide. I'm going in.

Speaker C: Maybe you have some good insights here.

Speaker A: I think I do. I think what I would like to see is a big market, so a TAM that I can work with and that I can build a big, big company and then a minimal share of, you know, the total market that I could capture that is already captured. So I just referenced to, like, this big, this blue ocean. Let's say something is huge in North America, but it hasn't been, um, you know, tried at all in Czech Republic or Poland or whatever. And that market is suddenly exploding. But they're in terms of, let's say, you know, you have a solution for supermarkets, but there's no tech vendor that is actually moved into that space to, you know, uh, to help them with, like, their challenges. That's essentially what I would want to see.

Speaker B: But it's tailored argument, right? It's like you're providing the arguments for a reason to make a strategic decision. Say, hey, we should go to Poland or we should go to this market because of these and these reasons.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I think at the end of the day, if the size of the market is big enough and you know that the need is there, then there's absolutely no reason not to go. If the market has also not been captured just yet, in case it has been captured, I think it becomes a whole different story because then you have to compare yourself with the players already active, and then it's all about differentiation. You call it white space in the previous example. Am I different enough in order to actually make people decide that they need a different solution? And we all know that's way harder because you know there's always like, you know the pain that businesses feel when they have to move from like one uh, platform to another.

Speaker B: Yeah it's a key point there like the different way of going uh, going to a market like either white space or uh, differentiating you from the current players.

Speaker C: I have a follow up question for, for both of you is really something I'm curious about. How, how do you really know if the market has been captured or not or if there's still demand left to, to create and take?

Speaker A: That is a very good question. I mean at the end of the day there's a bunch of companies that specialize in providing like the answers that you might need. I would probably turn to crunchbase, something like that. I would potentially hire like an analyst firm in order to get such answers in. Um, sometimes you can make it or do it yourself just by critically reviewing like the competitor um that you have discovered in that market and then kind of like reverse engineering how big they're going to be in that specific market in case they happen to serve um, various ones especially in vertical size But I've at least noticed is that there's lots of players that really just do one market. For instance in the Dach region there will be plenty of German companies that literally only do that. So just by looking at like the size of their company you will probably be able to identify their market share.

Speaker B: For some you can find it like with a build with or they can see what kind of tools they use uh like some automations you can find it if say hey do they have it plugged in or not? And then using Jasper's synology or like reasoning uh say hey if 60% of the market has it or 80% of the market uh then you know like hey a lot of it has already been captured but the difference there is like is it a mature market uh where the category is not growing that much then it's tricky uh if it's a fast growing market then it's a different story like then you have the

Speaker C: opportunity Also just one example that is in terms of trying to find a opportunity somewhere which I don't think we've discussed yet is regulations from government. I have a good example that just came to mind from a previous employer team leader is that in Belgium you Now from starting 2026 you have this UM regulation that each B2B transaction needs to be with a pepper way which is like an online transaction so it cannot be a simple bank transfer. I'm simplifying explanation. It has to be over some kind of infrastructure. And they really saw this already. So they tailored their product already two years in advance to this, this regulation, to adhere to this regulation, started completely marketing the crap out of this regulation that is to come. And then now I'm starting next month, in January 2026, this regulation is coming into place and they're the front runners. I thought that was also very smart.

Speaker B: Yeah, like whole industries are built on regulations. Like with the whole ESG space, GDPR companies, like there's loads of uh, those examples.

Speaker A: I think that's also a perfect gateway into, you know, making it more concrete for the audience. Um, one of the things that we always do towards the end of the episode is actually coming up examples. So perhaps it's your turn Ted, to actually explain to the audience whether you've ever witnessed a company firsthand that really fucked it all up.

Speaker B: The second example from Berlin is a painful one. It's like one of these things that you can prevent if you've done great marketing research. And in this case, uh, I should have done better market research because uh, that would have been able to uh, prevent these pains or prevent delay in terms of capturing a market. Uh, in a previous job, worked for a US tech company coming to Europe. Um, successful accounts already in the uk, in Netherlands, some of the Nordics. Uh, we wanted to take over the Dach region, of course Germany, big thing. We made a massive stand on one of the biggest trade uh, shows of the year. Uh, all kinds of collateral, nice stories, how amazing the product was. And I was standing at that uh, fair like uh, that uh, at our booth the day I started, like hey, this is a two day fair. It's going to be a big success. All these companies need our product. And then every single person that came up to me asked the question, where do you guys store your data? Where are your data centers? Not like, hey, what do you offer, uh, with great product etc. No, where are your data centers? And of course at that moment like these US tech companies coming fast, Europe, all the tech center like all the data centers are in the US which then means that like some small companies are willing to take the risk. But all the massive like enterprises, uh, and all these companies and the interest is just all on pause. Nothing, nothing uh, happening until we solve that problem. So if you would have done better market research, influence the products, get those servers in Europe, we would have been able to sell from the start. Instead of like having to delay for six to 12 months in building these product capabilities.

Speaker A: What was the outcome really, like to what extent did it truly hurt at that time?

Speaker B: It hurt less because there was like a limited amount of money to go to, uh, go abroad and you're tackling multiple countries at the same, uh, at the same time time. So.

Speaker A: Yeah, but even then it's borrowed money, right, that you're losing so you're not getting it back.

Speaker B: Yes, but other countries were making up for it. Ah. So like yes, the Dach region suffered from the growth rate but uh, they were able to catch up uh, afterwards. It's just like you have more time for competitors to jump in and to take that market share than you're able to do yourself.

Speaker A: I think I have an example of a company that actually did it really well. So I worked for a company that was very successful in Spanish Latam. So all the Spanish speaking countries across Latin America and they were looking to expand because they thought the product was ready for it, they got funding in the back. It just makes sense to try and make it a bigger company beyond the home market. So they identified a couple of markets that could potentially be interesting. Such as obviously the promised land, North America because buying power, because huge economy, you name it. But also Western Europe for similar reasons. Um, Brazil as a standalone market, huge market, homogeneous market, just one language and um, Eastern Europe. And the latter was actually considered the least interesting one at first because they speak various languages and on top of that as a whole one could say it's not the most developed market. Right. But they weren't foolish and they just wanted to test it properly. So they went to the US quickly, went to like a trade show, competed for a couple of deals, soon realized that they were literally just off by a mile. The product wasn't good enough. You know, the size of the company wasn't big enough to properly compete. Product wise there was just absolutely no chance that we were going to be successful in neither of the segments. So not in SMB, not in mid market, let alone in enterprise, while we were actually an enterprise company in Spanish Latin. So what they then did is essentially do the exact same but in the other markets starting with Western Europe, but pretty much concluding the exact same thing as they, as they did in um, in the us Very little damage done, lost a couple of deals by a mile. Whatever. Didn't open an office here, didn't go here with like an enormous army. And then tested out in Brazil and in Eastern Europe. And to their surprise, pretty much these markets were actually very receptive to the software, had like industry. So supermarket chains that felt the need right now. Plus, you know, we're expanding in terms of its size and like the, uh, also the size of, like, the standalone businesses. So rather than, you know, pouring money into a black hole because you have decided for yourself, I need to be successful in the North End market, which you unfortunately see quite often. Um, yeah, they just threw money, uh, sorry, through mud on the wall and saw whatever. Stick defined a couple of metrics that allowed them to get some sort of picture of, okay, where am I going to be successful and how do I see that within the span of like three months. And then just kept reviewing that relentlessly to see if they made the right decision. And it really, really paid off because they've been able to double the business for like the past couple of years.

Speaker B: Really good example, like hedging your bets, taking multiple trials, not being blighted by, like, this one market to go after. Uh, very smart.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was a great lesson for me as well. Smart CEO and successful business. All right, I think it's, uh, it's time for the takeaway because, uh, we're pretty much a half hour in. Um, I think to start off with, one definitely shouldn't get blindsided by buying power alone. For instance, the North American example, um, the market is very saturated. So it doesn't mean just because the industry is big and there's enough enough buying power that you'll also be successful there. Instead, you should also always look for, like, your chance to win. At the end of the day, that is kind of like the million dollar question. Am I going to be able to build a successful business in this market? Yes or no? And is that because there is a blue ocean? Or is that because I'm different enough? Like, can I actually out compete the businesses that are currently there? And then lastly, perhaps a good reminder for any marketing leader, market research really makes or breaks your potential success. Um, because if your CEO or the business altogether happens to decide to move into a market in which you just cannot thrive, people will point at you for not being successful.

Speaker B: Sounds like a pretty good summary.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Nice.

Speaker A: Thanks. Um, perhaps to wrap things up, what is, uh, what is the next step? What's the next episode going to be about?

Speaker B: I think today we've dove into, like, the market research bit. I think the next time we're going to dive a little bit deeper in terms of the audience and the Personas. What's more than motivating them? Triggers.

Speaker A: Awesome. Looking forward. Thanks everyone for listening. And, um, until the next one.