Beyond the Resume: The Art of People and Potential: Brett

Speaker A: Hi, I'm Michelle Aronson, and welcome to True Stories at Work, where we discuss the best things about working in human resources. The people, the stories, and the things that happen at work that we didn't even know about. Workplace confessions. I'm a recovering HR executive, certified coach, and business school professor who knows that the best stories happen at work. From heartbreaking to heartwarming, from hilarious to outrageous. Now I help companies develop impactful people strategies and make great cultures. On today's episode of True Stories at Work, you get to meet Brett, who knew a lot about HR before even stepping foot in it.

Speaker B: Sorry to call my dad out, but his philosophy was always like, go around hr, go around hr, they screw everything up. Call the hiring managers.

Speaker A: Recruiting was a family business, and it was in Brett's blood. She excelled at finding talent, even the ones who didn't want to be found.

Speaker B: And so I would reach out to people and they'd be like, I don't understand. Like, how did you find me? How did you know?

Speaker A: I met Brett when she dropped a ton of wisdom on a LinkedIn post with a famous quote, if you don't stand for something, then you'll fall for anything. It was a powerful and thoughtful response, and I knew she would drop some additional insights on the show. So here's one.

Speaker B: If anyone takes one thing from this body goes like it it is. This is not about you, brat.

Speaker A: I'm so glad to have you on the show. I reached out to you because of a comment that you made on a thread in LinkedIn, and it was just so powerful, and I just wanted to know more about you. And as we got to know each other, brought you on the show and just excited to have you here today as my guest. So do me a favor and walk me through your HR career.

Speaker B: So interesting. I fell into it. My dad is a headhunter, and he specializes in Wall street technology placements. He started placing out of work physicists as the first quants on Wall street back in the 70s. He did not set out to be a headhunter, um, either. And so I grew up in this. Like, I would go with my dad to the office and format resumes and take messages and talk to candidates and listen to him talk to clients. And then, like, eventually, actually through him, got an internship within hr. But that was kind of just like, I needed an internship. And it was great. And I went to school for international affairs. I thought I was going to be a diplomat. And the long and short of it is I got to go to NATO When I was 22 or 23, I was running an international nonprofit and I got really burnt out. And I was at a big nonprofit and I left and I didn't know what I wanted to do next. And the HR manager there sent my resume to a few staffing firms, and I thought, great, I'll get a temp job, because I have no idea what I want to do next. And so I started talking to staffing companies, and one of them said, hey, you seem like you'd be good at recruiting. Have you ever considered recruiting? And I was like, I think that's what my dad does. Like, I think that's kind of. I was like, uh, he's a headhunter and I worked with him my entire life. And I'm like, oh, great, great, great. So you get that part. What about sales? And I said, well, I've been fundraising. You know, I'm selling a dream. I can sell anything else. And they're like, great, come on board. And so this was back in 2007, right before the 08 housing bust. Uh, luckily I was in D.C. where there is always some economy through the government. Government contracting. But I came in as a recruiter, um, and then did a split desk for a very small temp staffing firm. And then I was headhunted out of there for a larger but still startup firm who said, hey, we don't have anyone doing our HR and admin in our DC office. Do you want to try? And I said, you know what? My. Sorry to call my dad out, but his philosophy is always like, go around hr, go around hr, they screw everything up. Call the hiring managers. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to make HR my best friend. They know what the budgets are like. Hearing my dad say, oh, hr, block this offer letter or block this. I'm like, well, if I'm friends with them, they're not going to block me. Let's go to the people that I need to be my best friends, who are also going to give me heads up when there's a headcount change or we hear this coming down the pipe. So I took that role and I was one of five in that office. Um, by the time I left in 2015, um, my team was within the office, probably about 10 people. And I was doing sales training, recruiting training for the company, um, before it got acquired by a larger firm. And through that I actually met my husband. I was introduced through an HR manager at one of my clients, and his job took us to la. So I had to leave my job Behind. And I reached out to some clients and said, I need something new. And one of my clients, a government contractor, they're like, hey, do you want to recruit data scientists? And I said, I don't know what that is, but sure, let's do it. And so I came in, I was recruiting fully, um, clear data scientists, like, the highest level of clearance, full scope poly. And that was really fun. The head of data science was like, I don't care how you do this. Like, go have fun with it. And so I was like, cool. And he's just like, I trust you. You put someone on my calendar, I'll interview them. And so I really had free rein to get creative. How to find people, how to source people. Um, and then I was recruited into another big consulting company, and I was leading their North American efforts to recruit data science consultants. And long story short, I've been still involved in the HR talent acquisition space for tangentially, at least the past few years. I now have my own business. Um, but I still do some work with my brother, my dad. And, um, that's my story.

Speaker A: It's in your blood. It's you were born.

Speaker B: It really kind of is.

Speaker A: There's so many little parts that kind of resonate with me in terms of going around hr. I even think HR people who are looking for jobs go right to the person that's hiring. I don't think any HR person is going to say, go ahead and put yourself in the ATS there and see how you flesh out. I think that getting connected is. Is the magic. But then I also love how your husband was kind of connected through hr.

Speaker B: Well, he was, he was a head of IT for the office. And so, you know, when you're the head of it, you know everyone, because, you know, and when you're hr, you know everyone.

Speaker A: Also, you mentioned one other thing in that introduction, which was around you are allowed to go have fun sourcing. So do you have a favorite fun sourcing story?

Speaker B: I guess I have a couple. You know, I think to anyone outside of recruiting, they might not be, like, so fun. But. So when I was, um, recruiting for data scientists, fully clear data scientists, these are people who have intimate knowledge of how our institutions and governments use our data. So they generally are not hanging. Like, they might have a LinkedIn profile, maybe, but they're generally not hanging out and saying, like, here's what I'm doing at work. They do not want a digital footprint. And if they do, they try to keep it very. They're careful. Um, they also know that they're in high demand. If they put out their like, I'm a, ah, data scientist with a full scope polyclearance, they're going to get spammed by recruiters. So knowing this, I have to get creative because I um, can't just do a search for like full scope poly data scientists, uh, on LinkedIn. I mean I could, but that person's probably gotten 8,000 other messages that day. So I got creative in a couple of ways. I started noticing patterns, I started going through people that were in our applicant tracking system and people who we had hired. And I started talking to the employees and said, tell me where you worked before, show me a software that like only you would use that I've never heard of. And they, there was one in particular that I was like, I've never heard of this software. I've never seen it on a resume outside of this very small cadre of people. I was like, I bet that early on in their career that you know, most of these people would intern at certain institutions. I was like, but I bet you there's a few of these people that put that Software on their LinkedIn profile. And like lo and behold there were. And it was like key indicator. If you have A, then B, then at some point you had the highest level of security clearance and cause you got that you probably still want to have it because it's very, very valuable. And so I would reach out to people and they'd be like, I don't understand, how did you find me? How did you know? And I was like, because you had that on your. I was like, you had this one little keyword. And so I also would use that like I do a Google, a Boolean search. Because nothing ever goes away on the Internet, especially on Indeed. And again, when you are a Youngster in the D.C. area and you're ambitious and you're looking for your next internship, you're probably putting your information on Indeed. And it lives there forever if you know how to do the right search. So that was fun. Um, another one that I did, I would join meetup groups and I wouldn't actually go to the meeting. So I was living in LA at the time, but I would message the, the moderator and be like, hey, can I talk to you? Like I'm not trying to recruit you, I'm just looking to network. And because I'm good at talking to people, I mean, I guess as a recruiter you have to. But I was able to like disarm. Like I'm not trying to be a spammy recruiter. Like, let me tell you what we're doing. And then another one. There's a website called xycd and it's very much, I don't know the way that my hiring manager described. Uh, it was, it was for data science nerds. And so I was like, okay, can you. Anyone can post things? I was like, post like a fun. Like, what kind of problem would you want to solve? What would get your attention? And I was like, go post some algorithm and say, if you solve that and send me the answer. And I was like, and then send me the names of the people and I'll find them for you.

Speaker A: I love it. Sourcing is funny. When you were telling the story about sort of LinkedIn and profile, you're good at it because when I reached out to you, you knew things about me on my profile that I still can't find. I still need to take that off because my sorority's on there and I don't honestly remember.

Speaker B: I'll show you where it is.

Speaker A: It's like, oh, uh, she's a good recruiter. She's like, in the details. You're checking people out.

Speaker B: Everything's in the details. Literally everything's in the details. There's things in the details that most people don't think to ask about. And it's not how many years of experience you have. I think it's a natural curiosity that makes someone a good recruiter. If I see that you have a bachelor's degree in fine arts with a concentration in music and now you're an engineer, I want to know the story there that's going to tell me something about you.

Speaker A: It is all about the stories. It's all about how they've made their choices through their life and how it's shaped em. It's kind of what I like to do in this podcast. So with that, I want to go way back because we kind of got pretty deep into some of, um, the HR stuff. But I really want to hear a little bit about you when you grew up. So tell me, where did you grow up and what was that like?

Speaker B: Okay. I was born in Long Island, New York. We lived there till I was seven. And then we moved to this small town in Westchester County, New York. Um, which is very different 30 years later than it was. It was very much horse country at the time, and now it is. It's like Long island horse country. If anyone's from that area, they'll understand. Affluent area, middle upper class, grew up Jewish, was bat mitzvah was confirmed and then through my temple was always very much involved in community service. Um, that was just a basic tenant. So whether it was working at women's shelters or going to visit the elderly, just always something that was very much instilled. Also, my father grew up with like nothing and happened by luck and by hard work. Skipped a few grades, got a scholarship to college. So like completely self made. So I was never allowed to assume, if you will, you know, like assumes or entitled.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Which might explain your hard work ethic and your deep, deep, deep passion. To get to the details, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Speaker B: I wanted to be a singer and actress. I loved to sing, I loved to make believe. You know, I didn't act until I was a little older, but that's what I wanted to be. It was just really fun for me.

Speaker A: I think what is interesting, I know a lot of people in HR who had similar dreams and aspirations and there is some performance and sort of stage presence in hr. So maybe those skills aren't totally lost. I just wanted to kind of get a little bit of your backstory because I think that really fills in some of the details about how you might even be showing up today. The things that shaped you and where you came from and kind of what your perspective is.

Speaker B: I do want to add just something that I think is. Affects how I show up today. Um, and really did shape me. And I don't say this to be like invicta mode, but I think it does shape how I show up as someone that connects with people and is empathetic. When I was in high school, I had two best friends who died in two separate car accidents.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And that really, I mean like anyone, it completely changed me. I remember being on the phone with my friend, being like, is this, this can't be happening. Like, how is this, how is this statistically possible? It makes no sense. And you know, you're already going through teenage. I think I was 15, I think going through like teenage hormones and everything. It was just a tumbling. It like brings you to your knees. But it also shaped me a little in that around that age, I think I started to say, like, I don't want to feel this bad. Um, and it just made me like a very sensitive person that was, I think I was always kind of more vulnerable and close to being hurt, which could be painful at some times and I still am that way. But it also means that I get to experience, experience so much more. Um, I'm open to connecting with People and going there, just as I've gotten older, I now have set better boundaries and I'm more careful about who I let into. Into my stuff, if you will, because I can receive other people's stuff no problem. But I have to be very careful about, you know, who do I trust with my own stuff.

Speaker A: I think that's powerful, and I think that's hard to do. And, uh, in the workplace.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: If you're coming in at that level. So do you have a story or example of how that shows up for you at work?

Speaker B: Yes. So I. I will say that every person I've managed has told me that I'm their favorite boss. And I do have people's best interests at mind. Like, I genuinely care. And I as also, when I coach leaders, I say, what's the first question you're asking your employees? Because it better be, how are you? And half the time it's not. You need to ask, how are you doing? How are you feeling? Because this is a person I think some leaders are trained to ask, like, how can I help you? Or like, what are you working on? And that totally bypasses the human element. I do have a story. I want to anonymize this person, Person in this situation completely. But I had someone who I worked with. She was not my direct employee. I was senior to her, but she was reporting to different manager. Dealing with a very toxic situation and ultimately a mental health crisis. I was able to, like, literally empathize with how she was and what she was going through. Because I had been in a similar situation myself. I couldn't help. Um, but I'll call your insurance company for you. Like, I'll talk to the doctor. I'll help you do whatever it is that you need to do. Because at the end of the day, like, you, we need you here. Not like we need you here at work. We need you here in the world and healthy and thriving and all of this other bullshit. Are you showing up and doing your job honestly? Does that matter if you're not here? No, it doesn't. So I hate to say, oh, it's a story of how I went the extra mile. Because to me, that's like, uh, the bar. Uh, you make sure that you care that your colleagues are alive. Not having a mental health crisis.

Speaker A: Yeah, burnout. Caring for each other. All of those things are a fundamental part of work that may be overlooked when people focus on the bottom line or the task at hand or have

Speaker B: just like, second such tunnel vision that it's like, well, how is this affecting me. And it's like, it's not about you. If anyone takes one thing from those bodyguards, it's like it, it is. This is not about you.

Speaker A: What is it about?

Speaker B: So in my opinion, it's about. I'm a big believer in the Jewish concept of tikkun olam. There's also a concept in astrology. When we look at a placement called Chiron, the wounded healer and healing other people, it's about taking care of other people. And it's also about feeling good. And uh, maybe that sounds selfish, but listen, if you are feeling good and happy as a person, you're probably going to treat other people better and that will spread to other people. You're going to lift other people up. So we should be feeling good because it really is the miserable people that make other people feel bad.

Speaker A: Absolutely, 100%. And that is like a foundational thing at work to take care of each other, to connect to care.

Speaker B: And so, I mean it should be, but we see so many times it's like, uh, not.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I've got a lot of thoughts on that, starting with the uh, CEO, the leaders and like the culture that they are defining and driving and behaviors that are present or absent. And uh, there's definitely ways to do it. Okay, I want to get into some of your stories. So what was your biggest challenge?

Speaker B: It's twofold. So I was recruiting for Data Science Consultants in Los Angeles and we were recruiting really, really brilliant people that were also interviewing at the FAANG companies and really cool startups, like robotic startup, like all of this really cool AI work. And when I found these fantastic people and I knew that they had 10 other offers that were paying them double, we're giving them stock, didn't require them to travel. It's like, well, how do I convince this person to come here? Because, you know, when you're at a company with very defined salary bands, I don't have the luxury of saying like, oh yeah, I'll give you like 5k more. No problem with some companies. Absolutely, you can do that. There's people that are like, I'll find a way to make it work with this company. It just wasn't happening. So that was a challenge, but also it was a fun challenge. Um, there was one man who I remember I found him and I was like, we gotta interview this guy. And I got him on the phone, I was like, listen, you're fantastic. Not only great resume, great everything. I was like, this guy, superstar. I said, where are you? In other processes, he's like, well, I have an offer from X company. It was a big company. He's like, and I'm also interviewing with this startup, and if I did it, here's all the cool things that I would be doing, like, with robots. And. And I was like, can you do me a favor? I want to fly you in. I'm gonna get you in in the next week. Can you push off the other offers? And he was like, I'll try. And he ended up getting the two offers. And I was like, please, just ask them for, like, 24 hours. I want you to come in and meet the partners, please. And actually got him in. I still don't know how this person, like, accepted the offer because our offer was much lower. But I really sold him the company. I believed in the company. And he told me after that, the only reason I went with this company was because you went above and beyond. And that, to me, was so gratifying. But again, the personal challenge for me was being creative. But I'm reporting to someone who is just like, if you just did things by the book, it would work out. And I'm like, I know it's not going to work out if I just do things by the book. And so it was more of a, um, test of wills. And I felt very defeated. And I'm telling you what the problem is, but you're not listening to the problem. It also was a big aha moment for me that I need to be working with people who give me the free trade. Like, I'm much more successful there.

Speaker A: It was a gift, in a way, to get away from a bad leader. Because you're not happy. I mean, it sounds.

Speaker B: I wasn't happy. Yeah, I wasn't happy. And, I mean, it was a really challenging time, but at the same time, I learned a lot. And now I can help people who are in that same situation navigate that or decide also, like, this is not the right environment for me.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Not being supported by your leader or appreciated or recognized is devastating for joy at work. From my experience and from the experience of my friends who constantly, uh, are unhappy at work with their leader, but yet staying, even though there's still that friction, we just need more great recruiters to recruit them all away. For better. For better leaders.

Speaker B: Yeah. Or coaches. But, you know, it's interesting. Um, I do have a coaching client. I want to share this little anecdote, little story. So I've had times where I'm working on a role and I come across a candidate who, on paper, is the opposite of perfect, opposite of perfect. Not everyone knows how to write a resume. Most people don't. But they can be brilliant. And so I'll get them on the phone. And when I talk to candidates, it's not like a quick phone screen. Like, I'm going to dig deep and I want to know again, I want to know your story, because then I tell the story to that hiring manager. But I have had, uh, multiple times where I was working with a company and they were looking specifically for someone with a degree in computer science, preferably a master's, who had this very specific software. And at the same time, I was working with a coaching client that I was like, if these two people met, they'd hit it off. But I don't even think he had a bachelor's degree and he didn't have the software. And so before I present him, I. I went to the Canon, I was like, listen, this might be a long shot, but would you be okay with me presenting you? Because here's the story of the company, here's why you think you get along with the hiring manager. Like, I'm not making any promises because I'll be very real with you. You don't have to check every box. But, like, what do you think? And he was so enthusiastic about it, and he was like, here's why I'd be good at it. Here's why I've done that. And so I went to this client, and they were a fairly new client. I didn't have that much of a relationship, but I really liked the hiring manager. And I was like, listen, I'm going to send you more people. But I have this one guy, and here's the boxes. He doesn't check. But here's why he is so excited about this job. And in my opinion, as someone that's been doing this for over 15 years, I'm just asking you have a conversation with him. The worst case scenario, you wasted the 30 to 45 minutes, and then you can yell at me, you can fire me, but, like, just talk to him because I think you'll enjoy it. And he was like, you know what? What do I have to lose? Sure. Long story short, the guy got the job. And, uh, we had to go a little bit. We had to push a little bit with hr. I had to repost the job description and change it, but this guy got the job. And that, to me, I was like, that's the best feeling in the world. Also, just knowing, like, these two people gen genuinely like each other to the point where he Was like, I gotta have this person on my team. And I changed two people's lives. Yeah.

Speaker A: And maybe more, you know, maybe more.

Speaker B: And I could have gotten fired from that client easily. They could have, um, been like, you're not listening to what I need. And that's happened before. I've definitely had clients be like, listen, I told you I want XYZ and you brought me X, B, Z. You clearly don't listen. And I can be like, I do listen. I'm just saying, like, in my opinion, in my expert opinion. And they're like, you're not the expert in what I need. Goodbye. Okay. But I still was true to my. I gotta trust my gut.

Speaker A: Hiring is an art, not always a science. And that's funny because I'm teaching a class right now for undergraduate industrial organizational psychology. When you think about people taking all those tests before they start to be the best candidate for the job and you ignore the human that's behind those. I'm trying to balance it and leave it as this semi true test without saying like, hey, sometimes this doesn't actually work.

Speaker B: Yeah. But I think that there's also something to be said for unconscious bias. And that's something that I've also come across where a hire manager's like, I gotta hire this person because, oh, he went to this school like me and reminds me of me. And I'm like, that's not a reason to hire someone either.

Speaker A: That's the reason not to hire someone because it's not going to really work well on your team. You're not going to have a well rounded team. You're going to have everybody that's just like you. And um, that sucks.

Speaker B: Sometimes there are cases where they want that. So it's not enough to be like, oh, I really like this person person. Then also we need to justify like, well, what is I like this person mean? If it's just like, I would grab a beer with them, okay, that's great. But can they do the job or are they the best person for the job?

Speaker A: For where the company is going strategically and, and all of that. Anything you want to share that I

Speaker B: did not ask that it's okay to be yourself at work. People should be authentic. But being an asshole is not being authentic. I have a very specific example of a leader who would be very insensitive and mean to her employees and her colleagues and would justify by saying like, I'm just saying what's on my mind. I'm just being authentic. Okay, well then you're authentically A jerk. Um, but also showing up as yourself. You can also incorporate empathy into that. Just be kind. Be authentic and. But also be kind and. But the most miserable and frustrating thing you can do is try to put yourself in some mold and try to work a place where you don't share the values or you just. You're not a, uh, good fit. Nothing wrong with you. Just not the place for you or not the role for you. Sometimes.

Speaker A: Yeah. And if you're not showing up as yourself, how are you showing up? What does that even look like if you are constantly masking yourself? Um, last question. What is your biggest workplace pet peeve?

Speaker B: People who lie. I know when you're lying. And it's like people try to get away with things, and it's like it always comes out. Just don't lie in any way, shape or form. Don't lie. Biggest workplace pet peeve. I mean, just don't be a jerk. People that are jerks and, like, egotistical and think that they're above someone else because they have a different title. Like, you don't listen. Your job could be eliminated tomorrow. And then what are you. What's your, you know, your big title's gone. So what. What leg do you have to stand on? Oh, actually, I do have one more. This is a roll. This is a general pet peeve. But speaking of, like, arrogance, people who are impolite don't hold the door for other people. Don't say thank you. And if you do that in an interview or I've blocked someone from getting a second round interview because they were rude to the recept. Just don't be rude. Don't be impolite. That's my biggest pet peeve.

Speaker A: I like all of them. I resonate with all of those on so many levels, particularly the. Don't lie. Because when I had to do employee relations, if you lied to me, the outcome was far worse than if you had just started out with the truth. Would I have to spend hours waiting for you to tell me the truth that I already saw on the video that I watched? You know, I just. Ridiculous. And, um. So, yeah, I hate that.

Speaker B: Especially now there's a digital trail for everything. So you can't be like, oh, no, I wasn't. I wasn't doing that. Oh, really? Because we have clear evidence that you were doing this.

Speaker A: It's nuts. And you can also. It's just better to just own it and then take the consequences or apologize or just be a human and know that everybody makes mistakes and that you will do better the next time. Your outcomes are far superior.

Speaker C: Awesome.

Speaker A: Uh, thanks for being my guest.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

Speaker C: We've all done something bad at work, but here's your chance to confess from small wrongs like borrowing office supplies to simplify your back to school shopping or snacking on a coworker's lunch to the major workplace sins, the sex, drugs and rock and roll type. Here is today's conscious clearing confession. So I, when I was a young lad, uh, 18, 19 years old, got a job at a well known pharmacy and kind of convenience store. And I, uh, didn't make a ton of money and I was kind of living paycheck to paycheck. And in order to make ends meet, um, I would always close and I worked the registers and I would always close, like late at night. One of my duties was, uh, to take out the trash after we had closed the store. I'd go around through all the trash. Well, as I was walking the trash bags down the aisles, products, I would take some food from those shelves and drop them into the trash bags, tie it up, throw it in the dumpster, and then I would get in my car. We would all like lock up the store. We'd all get in our cars, we'd all drive off. I'd kind of do a big drive for about 10 minutes around the the block. I'd come back and I would park my car right by the dumpster and I would, uh, pull those trash bags out, pull the food that I had put in there, and then I'd throw it into my, uh, car, then have some dinner and maybe lunch and dinner the next thing. So that is my embarrassing, uh, and shameful guilty r story of how I used to be a, uh, bad employees back in the day.

Speaker A: So whether it's small crimes or big drama, your story belongs on the show. Submit today at cultureandstrategylab.com podcast if you work in HR and have a story to share, please Visit my website, cultureandstrategylab.com/podcast stories are what we remember and how we connect. So please share yours with me.

Speaker C: Thanks.

Speaker A: Strategy is what you plan. Culture is what your people feel. At Culture and Strategy Lab, we bring those two things together to create workplaces where people want to work and businesses get results. If it's time to turn your vision into a reality, we're here to help. Visit cultureandstrategylab. Com uh, today. Haiku for Brett. Brett knows heart, not head is how we shine because, well, it's not about you.