It’s Not Enough to Know, You Have to Grow: Kristen

Speaker A: Today, you get to meet Kristen, who began her career at a West coast startup and appreciates the challenges of startup culture.

Speaker B: But think about if you came up with, like, the startup world, where the whole ethos is move fast and break things. A lot of times what's being broken is the spirit of everyone around you.

Speaker A: She ended up in law school, and during her first attorney role, she shared concerns about high turnover impacting an important case, only to discover the firm didn't think this was a problem at all.

Speaker B: And this managing partner said to me, kristin, one day you'll learn that employees are like rolls of toilet paper. You use one up and you get another one.

Speaker A: And we discuss how it's funny. Not funny, when the person you have an issue with is so defensive that they are offended that you are offended.

Speaker B: That's common. People are constantly offended when they are the offender.

Speaker A: Hi, I'm Michelle Aronson, and welcome to True Stories at Work, where we discuss the best things about working in human resources. The people, the stories, and the things that happen at work that we didn't even know about. Workplace confessions. I'm a recovering HR executive, certified coach, and business school professor who knows that the best stories happen at work. From heartbreaking to heartwarming, from hilarious to outrageous. So let's get started. So great to have you on the show, Kristen. We met at a luncheon and you were giving a presentation on being a lawyer that specializes in culture. And to know me is to know I had to get to know you. So reached out and was just so thrilled to make the connection and now to have you on the show. So would love if you would just spend a couple minutes and talk a little bit about your background and experience and what you're doing right now.

Speaker B: Well, thank you, Michelle. I'm so excited to be on your podcast. I love the whole idea of just sharing personal stories and letting that kind of speak to the work that we do as well. Culture is really important to me. I've worked for a lot of companies where culture was not as important, or maybe culture was really important, but the culture was not consistent with my values. So I like to say that every relationship in your life should be about shared values. And I've had a lot of working relationships since I was 15 where we did not have shared values. And I thought, oh, it'd be so easy to start my own business and create that culture here. And no, I learned that it is actually not easy. It is actually very easy to take on bad behaviors that are learned over time. I mean, when you experience bad behavior, sadly, you often mimic it. And so I think that has really shaped my understanding of culture and also understanding of leadership, how hard it is to create the culture that you want and you believe in. And yet oftentimes we are self sabotaging.

Speaker A: You know, it's hard to be a leader. It's also hard to, uh, understand yourself and the impact you're having on others. And no one really trains you right. A lot of times you're a great individual contributor and they promote you, but nobody really gives you a whole lot of support. So I commend you for being self aware and realizing like, hey, I need to build this culture. And sometimes it doesn't work like I expected. Sometimes it's harder than I thought it might be. Before we get really into the work stuff, I'd love to learn some facts about you maybe. Where did you grow up and what was that like?

Speaker B: I grew up in Oak park, which is just west of Chicago, and I had a great upbringing. You know, my parents are still together, I have three siblings and we're mostly close. You know, I mean, occasional sibling fights, but generally speaking, we're pretty close. And yeah, I'm still connected with a lot of people I grew up with, so I appreciate that. I think that shaped me in a lot of ways. And living in no Park, I was able to also have my first job there. And actually I had a podcast with a friend of mine who she and I worked together at a big music store. And we had lots of experiences that probably should have been reported to HR, but we didn't even know HR existed. When we were like 15 and 16, we, we just thought you had to kind of take certain things in the working environment. And now we're so impressed because I do think young people are so much more aware and empowered and able to speak up. And not only were we not any of those things, but we wouldn't have even known who to speak up to because really the people who we were speak would have spoken up to were the people engaged in kind of the worst behaviors.

Speaker A: I'm very curious. I'm sure there's things that happened that were egregious. I mean, I, uh, can't even imagine. I watch a lot of old movies, like with a current lens, and it's just shocking.

Speaker B: I think, uh, what's funny is people change and that that changes how we apply things. And when you look at movies from like, like the 80s and 90s, somebody was telling me that they were watching some movie with their kids and they were shocked at the things that seemed so innocent when we were kids and now are completely unacceptable.

Speaker A: I was watching a John Hughes movie on a flight and I thought it was safe. And then all of a sudden there were just boobs in the middle of the screen. And I thought, oh, my God, are m there kids like on this flight? But I thought I was really innocent. But all of a sudden I was worried about offending passengers all around me.

Speaker B: It is funny. John Hughes movies, like, we all grew up with those. They were so acceptable. But there's like a lot of sexual assault in there. Date rapes.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: We were like, that is not okay.

Speaker A: Remember Sixteen Candles? I was the movie. I think that was the one I was watching.

Speaker B: I was like, yeah, it's not okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. So when you were a kid, what did you want to be when you grew up? Was it an attorney? Was it something else?

Speaker B: I wanted to be a talk show host. I would sit in front of my mirror in my bathroom and pretend I was having a microphone and interview. Usually I'd interview myself, you know.

Speaker A: Well, now you are, because you have a podcast. So, look, dream come true. You've got the opportunity and a platform. And so as you grew out of maybe becoming a talk show or maybe grew into it, what were you thinking as you were sort of pursuing your early career? How did you end up as an attorney?

Speaker B: Well, okay, so after that, I wanted to be a writer, a fiction writer. And actually I went to University of Iowa and I wanted to join the writing program. And I took from the beginning. I was in some writing classes, and I just realized I am not a good fiction writer. I'm not saying I'm a bad writer, but I was not a good fiction writer. And especially when I was in this class and I was reading other people's work, I saw that and then I didn't really know what I wanted to do, and it just kind of floated through it. And then when I graduated, I wanted to move to Seattle because I had never been there, and I'd be living near the mountains and near the ocean. And so I moved out there and had a job interview lined up and ended up working for a startup company. And that was an awesome experience. That was a lot of fun. And then the dot com bubble blew up and I moved back to Chicago and I was working in marketing for a law firm and basically decided on a whim, I think I'm going to take the lsat. I was always, like, a really good test taker, and I kind of felt like, oh, I just wanted to prove that I could do it, that I could go to law school and do really well, since I didn't try that hard in undergrad. And so, yeah, I signed up and took the lsat, like, a couple weeks after I decided, and I did really well. I went to law school. But I thought, okay, I'm not actually good in practice law. I just want to prove to myself I could do really well here. I did the international law program, but I worked full time the whole time because I didn't really want to practice law. I thought, okay, I'm going to start a company or something after this. But then I got to the end of law school, and I thought, oh, I should at least try to practice a little bit. And, uh, a woman I met because of being president of the Evening Law Student Society, she introduced me to my first boss out of law school. And so I did practice.

Speaker A: What I like about that story, there was a book called the Secret Syllabus, and it is about how people don't know what they want to do when they grow up and that they need to explore their interests. So that was just such a beautiful demonstration of just kind of following where you wanted to be. Like, even if it was moving to Seattle and then thinking law school and being just able to be flexible with your own goals and find something that is, uh, satisfying. So I guess what surprised you?

Speaker B: In my second year, I was basically the lead attorney on this huge $500 million case, which was extremely contentious. And I really didn't feel like I had a lot of support at the firm. I'm sure that they thought otherwise, but I didn't feel that. And also, we were kind of churning through legal assistance. And I went to the managing partner and I said, it's really difficult to manage this case, especially when we're not keeping the paralegals, the legal assistants, on, um, staff. Why doesn't the firm invest more in some benefits and so forth for the paralegals and the legal assistants? And this managing partner said to me, kristen, one day you'll learn that employees are like rolls of toilet paper. You use one up and you get another one. And I, uh, was an employee. So, I mean, he had no problem just telling me to my face that I was like a roll of toilet paper. I don't know if he thought of me as an employee since I was a lawyer. Maybe the lawyers were not as, like, un cared for, I guess. But after that, I just thought, oh, uh, this is not where I want to be.

Speaker A: I, um, am Shocked that somebody would say that. That's actually like horrifying. But then again, I was in HR trying to retain people. So maybe it's two sides of a coin. One doesn't care and people are leaving and the other one just wants to stop the bleeding. So when you opened your own firm, what surprised you the most around the human element at work?

Speaker B: I mean, humans are so interesting. And you know, I have always been good at being self reflective, but what really surprised me the most is if you know that you're being an asshole, people are not like, oh, yeah, that's okay because you know it. So I kind of thought, oh, I'm more self aware than other people I had worked for. But I realized that people will give you a lot of grace, but at the same time, they expect you to change then too. And that's smart. They should expect you to change. So it's hard for me to slow down. And I think I was surprised. I thought because I'm really good at my job, I'm very good at advising clients, I'm very good at litigation, that I would be a good manager. And I think I'm a lot better now than when I started, but it's still not my expertise.

Speaker A: I don't think you're alone. I think there are a lot of leaders like that, smart people that are excellent at what they do, that have to sort of reshape how they deal with the other personalities and the other styles and the other people on their team, whether it's peers or subordinates or even their leaders. So I, I totally get that. And it's hard and it's, and it takes a lot of time. And people don't have time to be good. They want to just get it done. And humans need that connection to some degree to feel like they want to give their best. And to do that, you have to like, spend the relationship time.

Speaker B: And we really value being a leader. And you want to be a great leader, and that is a symbol of success. And I think maybe people need to think more broadly about what is success for them. Like being an amazing attorney or being a great salesperson or an individual contributor. There's a lot of success in that. But as you move up in your career, you do have to get better at helping other people learn too.

Speaker A: I did a lot of engagement surveys for thousands of employees over many, many years. And the leaders who got the highest scores were the ones in my office saying, I'm not a good leader. Like, I'm really struggling here. They were in HR asking for help. The people with the lowest scores were the ones that are like, I got this. Like, I'm great. And, uh, it's like, did you see your scores? What are you losing in translation? You're not great. Like, you do need help. So I think that humility and just being able to accept what you don't know because you need to be better is the gateway to great leadership. How's that? And that's not research based. That's my research based. Can we talk some stories? Do you have stories from the workplace?

Speaker B: Yeah, I usually like to mash up a bunch of different things and tell those stories. People misbehave and do the same stuff at every company. Once. There was this guy, he was, he was actually really sweet. He was an older guy and he just would make these dirty jokes at all of his team meetings. And what was funny is, and maybe this isn't funny, but one of his male employees, who's a young guy, he complained. And this guy was so surprised and so offended. And I just always remember because I interviewed him, you know, as part of the investigation. And yeah, he was open about his jokes. I mean, even in the meeting he's making some pretty, uh, off color comments. But what surprised me the most is how little people are aware that that was offensive. If people tell you, don't do this, it's making me uncomfortable. Instead of doubling down, like, they're wrong and they're, you know, they're the jerks, they're the assholes here. No, you need to change your behavior because he was a leader. But he had gotten to that point by doing the same thing for years. And somebody has said it was okay and somehow they got to where they're at. So they assume, oh, that behavior is good because it got me here. And you're like, no, that's not true at all.

Speaker A: I was having a conversation with a gentleman last week at a book event and I was saying, you know, humor is personal. Like, keep it to yourself because maybe people will laugh. Maybe people feel forced to laugh. But as a leader, like, it's risky.

Speaker B: I think humor is okay if it's like self deprecating or very G rated, you know, like, what is it? Ain't no bad joke. Like a dad joke.

Speaker A: Age jokes, clothing jokes, just keep them to yourself. I like how that gentleman was offended about offending. That's just the ultimate irony, right?

Speaker B: He was, but that's common. People are constantly offended when they are the offender. I think people mistake intent and impact. They think it's the same, like, I intended it this way and it's their problem if it hit that way. And you're like, well, not really.

Speaker A: Um, I guess what is the sort of riskiest thing you've had to handle either in your own place or for a client.

Speaker B: This has happened more than once. But we have been hired to do an investigation and have found that a founder or a CEO is the offender. Sometimes they came to us and they're like, oh, we need this. And I've had a situation where one of the owners thought for sure the other owner was the problem. And then we started interviewing people and the owner was really causing a huge culture issue. And that is hard for us because ultimately they're not going anywhere and they're also on the hook if there's a big lawsuit. So you have to be able to tell people that they're the problem in a way that makes them want to change and not get defensive. And I go back to that story where the manager was telling some bad jokes and he got offended because people complained about him. And you don't want it to be something where like they want to know who said it or you know, where there's potential for retaliation. Because we tell people there's not going to be retaliation. We thank them for participating in this. We want honest answers. Uh, so that has been a challenge we've dealt with on multiple occasions.

Speaker A: We need to know the magic. How did you handle it?

Speaker B: The magic is focusing on the liability and like, hey, this is how people are taking this. You also have to say, I think people know that maybe that, you know, that's not who you are, that's not what your intent is. But at the same time, once you have that impact, it spreads. And so you need to be extra mindful. Sometimes we, we advise them to get a coach. We do ask them to like do a follow up assessment as well. Because you want to tell people that you are going to make change. That's the other thing. You have to advise them that they need to tell the team or the employees or whoever that this information is being used, that you got the feedback, you're taking the feedback and you are making changes because of it because they know you're not getting fired if you're the owner. I think the key is making it not so much. I mean, it is about them. You have to be honest, like they are engaging in bad behavior, but make it about the behavior and not about them personally.

Speaker A: Yeah, I did some work, I went to do some work for some startups. And I was helping them with culture. But what I found myself doing was coaching the founders or the founder because they want to have an impact on their people. And you know, a lot of times they're these great scientists or engineers or people that are extra linear and don't really understand the wake that they're creating behind them. So.

Speaker B: But think about if you came up with like the startup world where the whole ethos is move fast and break things. A lot of times what's being broken is the spirit of everyone around you. Like this hustle culture where people are expected to give their lives to this endeavor. And a lot of times they're not getting the support that they need. In reality, you're just burning people out. And most of the time are they ever going to get the payout right?

Speaker A: And when you've got people just there kind of doing the job and kind of hating the owner, I don't think anybody's giving their discretionary effort. Anybody's giving their best ideas. They're holding them back for their next company or the company they're going to spin off and launch. Any other stories that you want to

Speaker B: share, words of wisdom, what's coming up for me? A lot, and we represent both employers and employees, the level of mental health and anxiety. And especially now because there's a lot of global uncertainty, there's economic uncertainty, people want to know what to expect on a day to day basis. And I will say that I think that's going to continue at least in the foreseeable future to be an issue that we're going to have more leaves because of mental health, we're going to have more claims because of mental health. I'm also seeing in this, I think people behave more poorly when they have anxiety or when they're not feeling safe. So I guess my biggest advice is like, try to treat everybody with kindness. It's hard. That sounds so simple. But it is not easy to treat everyone with kindness because I think we all have a little bit shorter fuse when there's this level of uncertainty going on.

Speaker A: How are people coming to you with these wellness or anxiety claims? Are they still employed and asking for a leave? That's being denied? Are they being terminated? How are you seeing these pop up in your radar?

Speaker B: A lot of people are coming to me when they're still employed and the things that they're saying are, I'm having high blood pressure, I'm not sleeping, I feel like I'm constantly on edge. And a lot of times I'm just saying I Think you should see a doctor. And you know, does your company have disability leave or are you eligible for fmla? Because I think sometimes people just don't even know what to do when they're in that situation. And then on the other hand, uh, I've seen employers, they see it. But as an employer, you don't want to go to an employee and say, are you okay? Because we're so afraid of claims coming up. We're so afraid that if you went to somebody and you raised an issue that now all of a sudden, they would have a disability claim or perceived disability claim. And that's kind of sad. You see somebody who's struggling and you don't feel comfortable asking them why, because you're so afraid that that's going to become a lawsuit.

Speaker A: I agree with not recognizing a disability that isn't brought to you. Don't assume you're not a doctor.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And you don't want to just do that. I used to pass out EAP brochures like they were Chiclets. If somebody cried in my office, you get an EAP brochure. If you're mad at your boss, you get an EAP brochure. If you come to me because you're mad at your mom, you get an EAP brochure like, everybody got one. It is just very consistently like, hey, just so you know, we have a free resource. What's the number you can call? And free confidential.

Speaker B: That is good advice. That is very good advice.

Speaker A: Anything else that you didn't say that you wanted to say?

Speaker B: No. Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay. So anything you have for me?

Speaker B: Uh, no. I mean, I feel like we probably both have shared so many horror stories, and I'm sure we could talk for hours about these things. You know?

Speaker A: Uh, I think you're absolutely right. And lawyers are my favorite people. I always appreciated the support and the humor and the guidance from all my attorney partners.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love HR because HR also understands humans are not binary. It's not like, oh, this is the right way. There's a lot of wrong ways. But I usually say there's not just one right way to be. And so I think HR people are awesome at understanding that. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, they've seen a lot. They have. And so thanks for being on the show. So great to have you.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: You already know your culture is a reflection of your leadership. The real question is, are you happy with what you see? At, uh, Culture and Strategy Lab, we help leaders create clarity and connection in their teams, fostering workplaces that reflect their highest vision ready to align and shine. Let's chat@ah.cultureandstrategylab.com. Confession is good for your soul, and in this case, it's also great for the show. Share your anonymous workplace confession@cultureandstrategylab.com annoy podcast if you work in HR and have a story to share, please Visit my website, cultureandstrategylab.com Podcast stories are what we remember and how we connect, so please share yours with me.

Speaker B: Thanks.

Speaker A: Haiku for Kristen Kristin shared the truth knowing you're an ass not enough Change is the real work.