From Dinner Taboos to HR Realities: Sex, Politics, and Tacos: Leah Part 2

Speaker A: If you're just tuning into the show, back it up one episode to Leah Part one, where you'll learn how Leah went from coaching girls basketball to solving the workplace's most vexing issues, including bank robbery, sex at work, and mass jiggling. We picked this episode up in the curious and mysterious world of Ediscovery.

Speaker B: From a lawyer's perspective.

Speaker C: We go through his files, and in his computer system that he had sent around to other employees was a document called Wills Wants Won'ts.

Speaker B: We also cover sex.

Speaker C: Uh, gosh, we have come across wild things. People admitting their sexual kinks. For instance, I recently had1 just two months ago where the company terminated an individual who sent pictures of his genitals to a coworker. In his defense, Michelle, she asked for his number.

Speaker A: Politics.

Speaker C: I am dealing almost daily with calls from clients now, trying to navigate political conversation in the workplace.

Speaker A: And we could have covered the final dinner table, taboo topics of money and religion, but we simply ran out of time because those topics also show up at work. So let's get started as we pick up where our last episode ends.

Speaker B: Now, you were talking about going through E Discovery and reading all this stuff. Okay, so what is the most interesting thing that you discovered in ediscovery?

Speaker C: It always deals with sex. People have sex. Okay, Michelle. And it is. People are sexual in a lot of ways. Uh, gosh, we have come across wild things. People admitting their sexual kinks. For instance, I recently had one just two months ago, where the company terminated an individual who sent pictures of his genitals to a coworker. In his defense, Michelle, she asked for his number. So that was okay, right? Is that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think usually that's a great response before you send the number. You just show them that picture and then say, do you still want my number?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is true. Sarcasm. Okay. Just because someone asks for your number does not mean that they want pictures of your genitals. But so the company terminates them. We go through his files and. And in his computer system that he had sent around to other employees was a document called Wills Wants Won'ts. And I had never heard of this. Okay, but, uh, being the innocent lawyer that I am. But it is a document that you, like, someone can fill out with a sexual partner or someone that they want. They want to assess if they would be a good sexual partner. And it assesses what they are willing to do, what they want to do, and what they won't do in the bedroom. And so, very interesting document to find, along with spreadsheets. And diagrams and company reports and all of that. But uh, yeah, so people are kind of goofy in terms of what they'll put in there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And once you see things, you can't unsee them. I will say I totally am against sending pictures of your genitals through work email. I don't know about other people. It is not okay. And when you have to like go through emails after somebody leaves and it's just awful what you can find.

Speaker C: It's like when you open it, it's like pops up. We had another situation. A group of sales employees, all men over the age of 40 and they were basically pranksters. So what they would do is they would go to pornography websites, take the hyperlink disclaimer, do not try this at home or in the workplace. And they would take the hyperlinks and then they would right click the hyperlinks and change the edit it to say something like Monday morning's presentation or Chick Fil A lunch menu. And then they'd send it around to the rest of the department and say, hey, going to Chick Fil a today. If anyone wants anything, let me know. Or hey guys, can you take a look at this? I'm presenting this on Monday for the board. And everyone would open it up and it would be a pornography video on their company computer in front of uh, all these other people. And they thought it was hilarious. But one of those sales employees was terminated for poor performance. And the good thing about sales is you can usually quantify it pretty easily. So we had good numbers to defend why the individual was terminated, but he turned around and sued for sexual harassment. And I'm going through the E discovery, Michelle, and I'm like, wow, yeah, there's definitely sexual harassment going on here. And it doesn't matter that all these individuals identified as heterosexual males because it's still sex based conduct being sent around in the workplace. It's a hostile environment at this point. Right poor. No one should have to be sitting there at work trying to work and receive pornography lakes. So I was like, we didn't really have a good defense because it did in fact occur other than we were able to prove that he did not find it unwelcome and offensive because guess what was in his sent inbox? The same thing. So just mind blowing what people do at work. All adults remember going back to that, to that story that my parents, you know, I always thought my parents, when you became an adult, you were perfect and you stayed within your lane. No, that's actually not the case. When you're an adult. I agree.

Speaker B: I kind of love that story though, in terms of you can't complain at the end, right. You've got to go early. If you've got, uh, a concern, bring it up to your boss, bring it to hr, solve it early. You can't participate all the way and then decide, oh, I'm in trouble.

Speaker C: Well, I'm going to bring everybody down. Sure. You better make sure your side is just as squeaky clean if you're going to go after the other side. And the crazy thing about that one is in doing witness interviews, we discovered that there was an instance where he was upset with another employee. And so I, uh, doing this probably on company time, but he printed off a ton of pictures of tacos and he took those tacos and I, I just thought they, they were tacos. And I was like, is this some national origin discriminatory thing? Like, what are we doing with these printed tacos? But then he taped tacos all over what he thought was his co worker's truck. And apparently the employees knew it was a joke because it was supposed to be sympathetic symbol of a woman's genitalia. Or is that, is that, can I say that in, uh, for a woman as well. Right. And so they thought they were being funny by putting tacos all over her. All over this truck. Turns out it was the wrong truck. It was a customer's truck. So, yeah. Talk about stupidity in the workplace.

Speaker B: Talk about performance issues and people that need closer monitoring on productivity and maybe

Speaker C: misuse of paper because that is a little bit ridiculous. Yeah.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker C: Oh my God. What about you? What, what's the craziest thing you've discovered in, in emails?

Speaker B: Oh my gosh. There was a time where I got an email from a leader that was a photo of a penis. And I was concerned that this was taken at work. Right. I didn't know the story about it, so I printed it and walked it over. Cause I wasn't going to send this through email through, you know, you don't perpetuate the problem. Well, I printed it on the printer and I stuck it in an envelope and I called the manager and I said, listen, I'm doing this investigation. Like I can see the desk. I just want to know that this was taken at home. I said, I'm going to bring it over. I need you to take a look at it and make sure this isn't his desk chair. Because his desk was in this secure area. So the manager slid it out and slid it back. He did not want to look.

Speaker C: He goes, nope, it's not at work.

Speaker B: I go, great.

Speaker C: That's all I wanted to know. You know, it was just.

Speaker B: It was super embarrassing to print it. Super embarrassing.

Speaker C: I'm just picturing you, the minute you hit print, like, sprinting down the hallway to the copy room to be. Make sure that you. No one could intercept what you had printed.

Speaker B: Yeah. And not to get deep, but we all know that copiers do keep records of everything printed. But that's a whole nother story, and it's not my problem. But how do I do I make him come to my office to see this picture?

Speaker C: Like, I just printed it and ran over there and then shredded it. And, uh, well, uh, the. We had a case where seven women in a healthcare practice filed a sexual harassment class action. And I. I've never had a class action for sexual harassment. Okay. And they were basically claiming that the head doctor had sexually harassed them. And there were a lot of allegations, but one of them I remembered was that the doctor would allegedly print something out at the printer and then yell to one of the nurses or his secretary at the time and say, hey, I just printed something. Can one of you bring that in for me? And they would bring it in, and he would be standing there nude, touching himself. And he wanted to expose himself to them that I was, I guess, one of his kinks, turn ons, whatever. And they had this kind of, like, running joke in the office about the printer. And, like, the minute you hear the printer, everyone would just run. They'd go to a different floor. They didn't want to be with someone walking by that would have to grab something off the printer.

Speaker B: This is a good call for a, uh, public service announcement for sexual harassment training, because although I will say doing the training regularly increases the amount of reports, at least you know what's happening and you can stop it versus people being subjected to it for months, years. Who knows how long had that been going on?

Speaker C: Oh, prob m. Many years, probably. I mean, allegedly. Allegedly, Michelle. It's sexual harassment training. I mean, harassment training in general, I think is pertinent in today's world. I think people. Especially when you're what people work from home, and there's that safety of feeling you're behind your screen, you're in the comfort of your living room. You might say and do rude things, send stupid things like memes or inappropriate videos on TikTok, had a situation or investigation for a client where an employee sent around a TikTok video they thought was funny, sent it to the other employees in the department and it was a video, uh, of blackface. I mean it was racially demeaning. So you got to do harassment training because to your point, I would much rather have someone internally, someone like HR or company compliance officer of some sort address it and investigate it and then resolve the problem before it ever turns into a news story or a lawsuit.

Speaker B: I agree and I just want to bring up something that I really liked from your pre show application. It was on toxic work environment and how that word is being thrown around, but also how Instagram and TikTok are sort of claiming this, which is a little bit of disparagement to the employers that probably may or may not have that. So tell me what you're seeing because I found that fascinating.

Speaker C: Yeah, I, I see way too much use of the word toxic and hostile. And there is legally actionable harassment. There is a legally actionable hostile environment. And to have a legally actionable hostile environment where someone can actually sue their employer and say I have been involved in a host hostile environment, they have to experience some sort of severe or pervasive harassment on the basis of a protected classification like their gender, their race, their age, a ah, disability, their status as a veteran. And they have to endure that as a condition of employment. And it has to be unwelcome and offensive. And when we say offensive, it has to be both subjectively offensive, so offensive to the actual person. So think of that scenario with the sending uh, around the pornography links. We were able to prove that it wasn't offensive subjectively to that individual because he was sending them around as well. Right. And then objectively offensive. Would a reasonable person find this offensive? That is the actual standard. But too often clients will call and they'll have an employee who emailed a harassment complaint and it just says, you know, I'm experiencing a hostile environment. My management is toxic. This workplace is toxic. And once you start to investigate it, right, they're using these trigger words and they're probably getting them from Instagram and TikTok because you can't watch Instagram and TikTok without seeing people talk about toxic relationships and hostile management. And you know, I even saw one the other day. Toxic positivity. Have you heard of that?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's when you're too positive.

Speaker C: Are we kid? Like what in the world is wrong with society?

Speaker B: I'm sorry, you need to tone down that positivity, please.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. It's this, this uh, work environment is too, where, where it's so, it's theoretically so positive. That we are overlooking our flaws and that's just embarrassing. I think that we as a society have an issue with toxic positivity. So, so if I could change something, it would be changing this culture of uh, what is toxic, what is hostile. Because one that takes away from a work environment that truly is in fact a hostile work environment from a legally actionable standpoint where maybe racial slurs are being used in the workplace, people are being demeaned because of a disability or sexual harassment is in fact happening. I, uh, think if you're going to use those types of trigger words that can create liability for a company, that that is the type of standard that the law protects people from hostile environments at that standard. But if your manager is asking you to do something and has to ask you to do it three or four times and raises their voice, or you have co workers who don't like you because you're a jerk and so you think it's a toxic work environment or whatever, then stop using that term. Okay? Just say, you can say it's uncomfortable, you can say that, yeah, your manager's hard on you, but don't use toxic or hostile. Mhm.

Speaker B: People would say I'm being harassed. It's like, what's going on?

Speaker C: They go, my boss told me I

Speaker B: have to be in at 8 o'. Clock. I'm like, that's actually not harassment. They're allowed to have you come in at whatever time. Now if you have a problem, why don't you talk to your manager and maybe there's another shift that's available. But you know, it's not exactly harassment or toxic.

Speaker C: Oh. I've actually recently even seen managers claim that their subordinates were toxic or hostile to them. And I'm like, well you gotta manage like I'm sorry that they're just blowing you off or uh, taking a different direction than what you're, what you're saying. But they clearly there's a lack of respect there and I mean there's just only so much we could do in certain scenarios. Oh, I saw one, I saw a complaint the other day from a client, um, an employee submitted, they used. The client has an electronic system and you can click what you're reporting. So you know, violation of law or you know, compliance issue, safety issue. Harassment discrimination. They clicked that. So they titled it, it was titled Harassment discrimination on this portal. And the um, the employee complained that her co worker had bad vibes. Yeah, I get it. Like what are we supposed to do with that? Like what are you gonna do with

Speaker B: That I would make the employees have a, uh, conversation.

Speaker C: That's what I would do with it.

Speaker B: Yeah, it comes back to leadership. I think a lot of this has to do with setting expectations clearly about what work is and what work isn't and holding people accountable and supporting them. Do they have the knowledge to do it? Do they have the skills to do it? Offering, um, them training, I mean really just getting in there, getting in the, the seat with your employees and helping to help them adjust.

Speaker C: I mean, sure, it is hard and I think too, uh, if you've come from one workplace and you've recently joined another workplace, employees need to understand that workplace cultures are going to be different. You may be used to one, but you may have to adapt to another. And I as an employment lawyer had to learn this as well. And it's funny, when I was in high school, I was really into Spanish and I applied for this program to go to Peru and work in a daycare center in Peru for the summer. And so my, my parents were reluctant, but they let me go work for this nonprofit. And as we're at the airport, my mom says she knows I'm a very hard headed, opinionated person. Okay, Michelle. Hence why I became a lawyer. But she says, you know, Leah, don't try to change their culture there. You know, adapt to their culture. Don't try to change it. You might have a way of doing things. You might like your, your sandwiches with peanut butter and jelly. They might put banana on their peanut butter sandwiches and don't try to change it. Don't try to tell them they should use jelly. Adapt to it and, and learn. You may learn something from the way they do things. And it's funny because I've thought about that a lot over the years and I don't want to give my mom this much credit, but I will. Thank you, mom. And I even think about it as I'm working with different clients and sort of I have to adapt to the way their culture is. I could be on the phone at 9am with a manufacturing client and it's rough and tumble. They've got a lot of quarry guys out there and they're wearing boots and overalls and you've got lower education level in terms of the employees you're working with and you just have to adapt to that environment versus that at 10am I'm talking to, I've got a client who's a retail outfit and they allow their employees to bring their kids to the workplace. And I might say, oh gosh, that the Safety concerns, the distractions your kids are running around the workplace, there's biting in the workplace. I. There's a way I could feel about that as a lawyer, as a person, and the concerns. But you know what, that works for their workplace and their culture. And so I, even as a lawyer, have to adapt. And if you'd had an employee go from the warehouse to one to the warehouse and the manufacturing plant to go apply to work at the warehouse in the retail outfit, that is a huge culture shock and a huge change. And so they need to. Employees as well, I think, need to be willing to adjust to a new environment, a new culture.

Speaker B: Well said. Anything I didn't ask that you wanted to share?

Speaker C: Um, I will say it's political season, and I will say this time of year, uh, I am dealing almost daily with calls from clients now trying to navigate political conversation in the workplace. Employees coming in wanting to wear political pins and paraphernalia or put. Putting. Had a employee the other day that put a. A Trump sticker on their laptop and a client wanted to ask them to remove it. And, you know, their other employees got into a fight over whether a candidate was particularly pro choice enough or pro life enough. And so I think what is happening in society, dealing with politics, dealing with the war in Gaza, and I mean, employers trying to navigate, you know, religious issues that, uh, in conversation that is happening in the workplace and what side the US should take there, you know, Palestine or Israel and all that, this is all coming up in the workplace. And I think this is a really difficult time of year for employers and employees as well. Right. You might be trying to get your work done and not feel comfortable with your coworker who has, you know, the Trump sticker on their laptop, but you're working on a project very intimately with that person. Right. So I think this is a time of year where I would say we see a lot of harassment, discrimination complaints, a lot of employees using that toxic work environment term. And it really, uh, a lot of it comes down to politics in the workplace.

Speaker B: And what's the right answer?

Speaker C: What's the magic? Oh, that's such a tough question. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too. I mean, in some states, your political expression is protected. Right. And so we have to be mindful, even private employers, public employers have a lot less flexibility to come down hard on how employees express themselves, because public employers can't always infringe on an employee's First Amendment rights. Right. And so you have that sort of, that free speech, right? You've got to toe the line, whether you're a public or private employer. But I think a lot of it really comes down to respect in the workplace. And so I oftentimes will say, okay, you had two employees get into a fight in the break room over talking about the debate between Trump and Harris.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker C: Maybe the conversations could have touched on protected characteristics like religion in the workplace, or know national origin and immigration, and we could have a real true harassment, hostile environment concern. But let's just. We don't. Before we even get there, let's just see, did they violate our respect policy, our code of conduct, our professionalism policy in the workplace, and how can we address it there? And this goes back to what we talked about earlier, I think, is having a conversation with them, Michelle, you know, sitting down with them individually, together, and trying to find that common ground, you know, despite how polarizing our politics are these days. What's your take?

Speaker B: It's hard. I mean, we worked on policying out certain things like buttons and things that were risky. So when marketing said, let's use buttons or things they can put on their badge, we were like, nope, nope.

Speaker C: We've got a policy against, like, wearing

Speaker B: things on your uniform.

Speaker C: But it's hard.

Speaker B: I think dialogue's important, and I also think creating a safe space where people can come and do their job and not be distracted, and you don't want people arguing in front of customers and, and being disruptive and distracting, so.

Speaker C: Sure, yeah. Or a customer not feeling welcome. If somebody is, you know, let's say they, they had a pro life pin that they were wearing, and, uh, this is a healthcare setting, and someone came in and was looking for an abortion. I mean, how does that customer feel? Right. So it goes both ways. I think so, yeah. There's, I think, the same polarizing aspect that you see in life and on the news and, uh, with our politicians. You know, people don't drop that when they walk through the doors of the workplace. Yeah.

Speaker B: They bring their whole selves to work. Isn't that interesting?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I think that brings us full circle.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Life happens in work, too. Well, wonderful. It's been a great conversation. It was so good to have you as a guest. Is there anything, um, any questions for me or anything left unsaid?

Speaker C: Yeah, it was. Well, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. And, and I'm curious, true Stories at work, what was the impetus for, uh, for wanting to go after sort of true stories at work?

Speaker B: I loved that part of my job. When I used to go to HR conferences, I would ask people like, what's your favorite HR story? And I just think it's fascinating. I love the power of story. The other thing is, I teach, and when I would teach, I would share stories as examples and my students would remember them for years. So I think there's power in stories. Even though you and I had an exchange lessons that people hear, they'll take with them, and when things happen, they might be able to apply them. So I think it's a little bit of education and a little bit of entertainment.

Speaker C: How's that? Absolutely. Well, I can't agree with you more. And I. I recently read a book called Talk like ted and it's all about how to be a better public speaker. And one of the biggest takeaways was that the average retention span or, uh, attention span is 20 seconds or less. But people actually remember stories. They'll remember the entire story and the moral or the takeaway from them. And so I think it's great. Well, thank you so much for having me on and letting me share.

Speaker B: Thanks for being such a great guest.

Speaker A: Confession is good for your soul. And in this case, it's also great. For my podcast this week, there is no workplace confession segment because I'm fresh out of stories, and that's where you come in. Whether it's a small slip up or a monumental misstep, your confession could be just what the show needs. Submitting is easy and anonymous. Just head to Culture and Strategy podcast and click the record link. Record your confession as many times as you like from the comfort of your own phone and then hit submit. No personal information is required. You can even have your confession read in a robot voice. If you'd rather stay completely anonymous, help me keep the confessions coming and make this podcast even better. I can't wait to hear your stories.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the show. Um, if you work in HR and have a story to share, please Visit my website, cultureandstrategylab.com podcast stories are what we remember and how we connect. So please share yours with me. Thanks. At Culture and Strategy Lab, we get to the heart of your business to help you breathe life into your values. And we help you create an HR strategy that aligns your culture to your business.

Speaker A: Haiku for Leah. Leah spills the tea. Sex Politics on the plate. Taboo topics served.