Love and Learning Curves in HR: Tracy

Speaker A: Today you get to meet Tracy, who got her first job the old fashioned way.

Speaker B: So good old fashioned nepotism.

Speaker A: She was loving her job until she complained to her boss about an intolerable co worker, only to have her boss solve this problem in the worst or best way.

Speaker B: And here's what I'm going to do. You're gonna work for him. And I was even more upset. However, that was like a huge turning point in my life.

Speaker A: And you get to hear a success story about love at work and how she navigated this very tricky situation.

Speaker B: And how we did it was we just snuck off and got married one day and came back and we're like, hey, we're married. And everybody's like, oh, welcome.

Speaker A: Hi, I'm Michelle Aronson, and welcome to True Stories at Work, where we discuss the best things about working in human resources. The people, the stories, and the things that happen at work that we didn't even know about. Workplace confessions. I'm a recovering HR executive, certified coach, and business school professor who knows that the best stories happen at work. From heartbreaking to heartwarming, from hilarious to outrageous. So let's get started. So awesome. I'm really glad to have you on my show. We were connected through somebody that I met at the SHRM conference. And so tell, uh, me a little bit about your HR background and then we'll kind of go way back even earlier in your career.

Speaker B: So I left in, uh, January 2024. I left the corporate world to start my own business. And it was something that I had planned in the future, um, at some

Speaker A: point in the future.

Speaker B: And all of a sudden the future was here. And I think during COVID that really kind of made me step back, made my husband step back and us really look at, like, what do we want to be doing and realize, like, what I wanted to be doing was growing and building for me, not for someone else. But before that, I was a chief people officer and have a 30 year career, roughly 25 years leading human resources.

Speaker A: I want to go way back. Okay, so tell me a little bit about where did you grow up and what was that like?

Speaker B: I grew up in Londonderry, New Hampshire. I had a pretty wonderful childhood and lived in a town where, um, like where my house was, there was an apple orchard across the street. My father coached football for years. And so it was always. There was always something to do. There was always something going on. My parents, for what they could afford, like, did as much travel with us as they could. And so I had a really fun, happy Childhood, I think, until I hit the teenage years. And then I was just angry at everything for no. For no reason. But, um, yeah, it was, uh, it was a lovely, lovely place to grow up.

Speaker A: I think those teenage years also describe me 13 through probably 23. I think my mother was, uh, not thrilled. She was definitely not happy.

Speaker B: No, I was awful. Yeah, I know.

Speaker A: But what's funny now is when some of my friends say I look at my kids and I'm really mad because they're not rebelling. They're almost resentful that they're not sneaking and doing all the things that we did with. Well, maybe not you. That I did when I was a kid. Um. Um, so tell me, when you were growing up across the street from the apple orchard, like, what were you aspiring to be? What were your career goals back then?

Speaker B: Uh, uh, so when I was very little, I think a, uh, teacher. I loved school. Like, I really, truly loved school. And so I remember my grandfather somehow getting a hold of, like, textbooks and a teacher textbook. So I used to pass them out and make my cousins sit there for hours playing school, which was. Which was fun. And then by the time I hit high school, and this is really weird, I. I wanted to be in human resources. I actually wanted to do that. I had an aunt who was in personnel at the time, and I thought that was really cool. And that married my love of people and business and just figuring stuff out what was going on in people's brains. And interest in psychology, which was my undergrad major. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And I was an undergrad in psychology, but I was not interested in business. And my dad was all, business, you need to study business. And I studied psychology, art history. You know, you can do people, people and business. It felt very oppositional to me. So how'd you get your first HR job out of there?

Speaker B: So good old fashioned nepotism. I was in College in the 90s and the early 90s and there just weren't any jobs. I had to pay for my own apartment. I lived with a bunch of friends and I wanted spending money. So my freshman and sophomore year, I didn't work because it was really hard. And then junior year, I was ready to work. And so my father knew someone at, who knew someone at. At, uh, the local. You know, I did a phone interview and they created an internship for me that was supposed to be a few months and it lasted a couple of years. And then they created a role for me when I graduated. And, you know, I started off like, checking references. That was my internship But I absorbed everything, absolutely everything. So it was a 1200 person facility, you know, high volume hiring. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. So I worked 15, 20 hours a week, had a, was paid well, had spending money, and, um, you know, learned so much, not only about hr, but about business in general.

Speaker A: What surprised you most about that first job?

Speaker B: I could handle a lot of work and I could do, um, things and that would be tasks, right? But back then I was very black and white in my thinking. So there was right and there was wrong. There was no gray area. And we all know in HR now there's a lot of gray. And so I was very much a. For the business paper wielding compliance, wielding leader. Then I am not at all now. I'm very people first. But back then I was. And that's how I learned. And so there was a situation I didn't handle well with a rebel. This guy on the team. There was a team of 12 in this facility. And this guy on the team who just came in out of nowhere and just wanted to blow stuff up, right? And just wanted to do things differently. He was a recruiter. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not the way we've always done it. We can't do things that way. So there was one day he made this decision that was like, I think it was like a button i9 and how you fill it up. But it's something really, really ridiculous looking back on it now. And I was so upset. I left, got gas in my car, had started crying, had to compose myself because he was just doing things so differently to get to the same goal, but not the way they had always done it. And I didn't think I could handle that. So I came back eventually. Um, a couple days later, talked to my boss, who I loved, and she was like, you know, basically, that's not great and here's what I'm gonna do. You're gonna work for him. And I was even more upset. However, that was like a huge turning point in my life. I didn't think I could work with people who were so different than me.

Speaker A: Um, um.

Speaker B: And I learned that I actually learned more from people who think much differently than I do. And we ended up having not just a great working relationship, but a great friendship.

Speaker A: I love that. I've had several experiences like that. But I'll speak for myself. What's humbling is when I look at the problem, it's me, you know, that's always the worst part. As a coach, I always think like, what Would I. What would I advise somebody that I'm like, oh, yeah, it's me. I gotta change my own approach.

Speaker B: As our greatest poet, Taylor Swift says. Right? That's that Taylor Swift, yeah. Yes, yes.

Speaker A: I am not a swifty. I do like her. But you're right. I mean, it's funny. One of my, um, employees told me a story. Her husband is a leader, and he had a mirror in his drawer, and somebody was complaining, and he said, do you want to know what the problem is? And they said, yeah. And he opened up his drawer and he held the mirror at them, you know, And I thought, you know, so I kind of get that visual in my head of, oh, yeah, look in the mirror. That's where the problem really is.

Speaker B: I was the problem. Yep.

Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. So how did you figure that out at such a, uh, early career stage?

Speaker B: I was. I was pretty young, and I'm sure there. I don't remember a lot of it, but I'm sure there was a lot of crying and complaining. I'm sure there's a ton of complaining. But I didn't have a choice. You know, there was nowhere to go, even if I was going to go. It was a terrible time in the economy. So if I did something rash and just quit, um, there was nowhere to go. So I just, in the end, trusted my boss, my original boss, and that she knew what, um, she was doing. And she did, and she did. And sometimes I think that when, you know, when we're in roles, particularly in early career roles, and we're put in a situation like that that we think is awful, like maybe we are, uh, the problem, like you said, maybe we don't know. And maybe somebody is putting us in a tough situation, tough assignment to help us grow. And in that case, for me, for sure, that was the case.

Speaker A: Yeah. And sometimes there are really crappy leaders, and the problem is you're not going.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: The problem is you need to exit from a toxic leader or a horrendous workplace. I have friends who have horrible stories, and I say you need to leave, and they don't.

Speaker B: And sometimes you can't, though, right? You have to pay the bills, and sometimes you can't. And it's harder. It's much harder. And I have so much empathy for people in those situations. And I've been very fortunate to have direct supervisors, like extraordinary ones, throughout the course of my career. But I've worked with a lot of people over the years that were toxic. And you do your best to get them out of the organization.

Speaker A: Exactly. So what's, what's your most memorable moment in hr?

Speaker B: Oh, I, uh, think one of the things that I've talked about and this is, you know, because most of these stories are bad because of course we remember the bad things so much more than we remember the good things. And I have had a lot of wonderful things happen. I actually met my husband at work. You know, that's a fun story. This was many years ago. I was with my CEO and there was the uh, the person who oversaw the parent company who was on the phone and it was a discussion about benefits, which was in squarely in my wheelhouse. And I said something, and he said something along the lines of, do you dare speak for your CEO? And then my CEO chimes in and said, yes, she knows much more than I do. Right. And so again, very early ish in my career, I think who it was, maybe 10 years later, I probably would have stood up my. But you know, we talk about things like that. Like first of all, there's a couple of lessons there. There's, you know, sometimes you are, uh, you are not going to get a chance because of uh, who you are, what you look like, where you came from, et cetera, et cetera. Right. And so there's, that still is a real problem that exists today. In my case, I was a young woman. And the other powerful lesson there was mentors and sponsors, executive sponsors and your great bosses are so incredibly important, that those champions in your life are so incredibly important.

Speaker A: And I think there's another side to it. I do a lot of coaching with leaders at all levels and there's a perception, there's an anticipation and there's a, um, assumption of how somebody's going to react to something. And so helping people to just test those assumptions, if you do speak up, if you do talk to your boss. Because I think people believe in their mind they tried something once and it didn't work out, so they think it's probably not a good idea. But I, I do think sometimes, once again, pull out the mirror as uh, your mental model is getting in the way of speaking up to the CEO. My CEO said things at a leadership meeting that I was pissed about. I was, didn't bring it up in the 150 person meeting, but I called him after the meeting and I said, listen, you know, my employee engagement survey's coming up and the message you're touting is not okay, like we have to figure that out. And I thought, well, I might get fired. But he's totally Ruining my, like, message that I've been working on, and we gotta be aligned. But he called me after every meeting and said, how'd that go? What'd you think? I mean, it ended up being a little bit of a sounding board because sometimes people don't get feedback. And so him just hearing that, I think it. It wasn't negative in a way.

Speaker B: Well, I think there's definitely a lesson that I learned about bravery and self advocacy, but there's also a lesson in that there has to be psychological safety there. And for me, there wasn't at that time. Uh, and certainly my boss and I talked about it after, but I never confronted the other person because I did not feel safe to do so. And that's, you know, those things have to be in place for people to speak up. But whenever I can and wherever it was, you know, relatively safe to do so, I, um, started doing that way too late, but started doing that. Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's hard, and it's a learned skill, and it. In hr, it might be easier when you're an HR leader because it actually is your job to speak up after a while. Right. You get to the point where you're the director and everybody does like the decision and you still have to operationalize it or whatever. Um, tell me about meeting your husband at work. I'm sorry, I can't let that go.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. So I was the HR director. He was the general manager. So we didn't report to each other. And, you know, long story short, we were both divorcing, and we had been best friends for years. And then we realized, like, oh, that we're a little bit more than best friends. And so that was a real interesting, um, situation. Certainly we had to navigate that not only as, you know, people ending lives and starting new lives, but also in the workplace. And what would that perception be like? And what would people think? And could I be fair and impartial, or could I be seen as fair and impartial? And so we were just upfront and honest, and it actually worked out really, really well, uh, for a period of time. And then, um, the economy tanked a couple of years later, and I, um, was laid off, and they gave him my job. And so he was doing his job and my job, and so he left a few months after that. And so, uh, we haven't worked together since. We realized that, like, it's great to support each other, but it. It's a different thing when you're seeing each other all day, every day. And that was. We've been married for almost 17 years. So that was a number of years ago. And, um, yeah, it was. You know, it's fun because he, he knew how I worked and he knew my potential and he knew what I could do and believed in me way before I ever believed in myself and way before I ever knew. So I'm extraordinarily fortunate.

Speaker A: I love it. And first of all, we deal with people dating at work, so it is such a good story of that working out because the stories that end up in HR typically are the ones that don't work out for a variety of reasons. And then you have to unwind all that anger and rage. But what I also think is amazing is you were in charge of hr, so not only do you have these sort of levels of complexity of navigating your life because your life is more important than your work. Right? You're in love and this is your partner. And now how do I bring it and make it okay in the workplace? Like, what was the biggest, uh, fear or hurdle when you were sort of truth telling? Were there struggles?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think we were more worried about how, uh, what people would react. And what we ended up with was almost nothing but support. And so, you know, the couple of people. I remember having a conversation with somebody who worked for him and I was like, look, I'll quit if that's what you want. And she's like, no, no, I don't want that. Because we were both great at what we did and we both added a ton and we didn't report to each other. So what? There were a lot of conversations, but we were very, um, careful with that. And in the end it worked out really well. But that's not always the case, I think. I think when you lead with honesty and trust it, things end up better. Um, um. I think what was difficult was before we told everybody, I mean, our bosses knew early on, but before we told everybody. Um, um, and how we did it was we just snuck off and got married one day and came back and we're like, hey, we're married. And everybody's like, oh, okay, I love it.

Speaker A: Where'd you sneak off to?

Speaker B: Uh, an office that my cousin, My cousin has her own business, so she's a jp. So she married us in her office one day and then we, at our 10 year anniversary, we had a full wedding and my dad walked me down the aisle and my parents were there. My mom's now gone, so that was nice for them to get to see that. And our kids were There and my brother and his brother. And so it was, it was. That was lovely.

Speaker A: I love it. I love, love. I like to hear successful stories at work. You spent so much time at work, so it makes sense that that happens. But it, um. Yeah. And I dated somebody at work and it did not work out. And then I had to see them every day.

Speaker B: That's uncomfortable.

Speaker A: That was early career. That was really early career. And I just was full of regret. I didn't know anything about employee relations. I had no idea what the risk was or, you know, it was in the 90s, let's just say that I don't know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um.

Speaker A: Any funny stories? What's your favorite funny story about hr?

Speaker B: The funny stories are, you know, usually people doing terrible things, but that aren't really injuring people. I remember at that same place we had a press operator dump raspberries in the press, like a container of raspberries into the paper so that, you know, everything ended up with raspberries on it. And we're like, why did you do that? He's like, I just wanted to see what happened. And we're like, what do we do? Do we fire? What do we do? We don't have a policy against people dumping raspberries in the machine. Like, what are we. So we didn't. We're just like, don't do that again. But that was really funny and really strange. Um, you know, I. Years ago at a former company, I put in a self review policy because people weren't being honest and talking about what they felt. And you know, reviews really needed to be more than just like a recap of the 12 months. And so we put in like, it's almost like a version of a survey. And we sent it out to people. And the theory was that people would be more honest if they were doing that on paper. And they worked. It worked out great. And I did mine, sent it to my boss and then all of a sudden I was like going to all these events with him and going to like ruins games with him. Hm. And I worked for the CEO and I remember being on the road to Boston with him and I'm like, andy, you read my self review, didn't you? He's like, yep. I'm like, good work. You're doing what you should be. Because my self review was, I need more time with you so I can do my job better. So we were like traveling all over and. And so that was a fun story with a fun lesson for me. Like sometimes people listen and sometimes we've Just gotta speak up, like we were talking about earlier.

Speaker A: It's so interesting when my boss would stop by my office every single day because he rounded on all of his leaders every single day. And I know that's old fashioned when people worked in the office and people still work in the office, but it is. There's something about that connection and knowing that they're there, spending time with them, like you said, that just made me feel cared for, supported. You know, the little things that come up don't get to be big things because you've got that access to connection. And it wasn't for a long time. Sometimes it was just a, uh, hey, how's it going? Do you need anything?

Speaker B: But it mattered to you.

Speaker A: But it matters. Like having that time with him maybe at the Bruins game. Well, how'd you feel?

Speaker B: Oh, that's great. Yeah, no, it was great.

Speaker A: And then I started.

Speaker B: I don't know if this is before or after, but I like there's particular kind of chocolate he'd like and have like candy dish. And so I would just keep that in the office. And I could be assured he'd stop by every day and pick up a chocolate and then I could grab him if I needed to because I was much quieter then too. I wasn't gonna go, I'm like, hey, I need to talk to you. But it actually helped our relationship. I still like, he was such a wonderful boss in so many ways. And he really listened and he really gave me the, the tough, um, feedback that I needed to grow because he saw something in me when I again, didn't see it in myself yet, and really helped me in my development. I think maybe more than anybody else in my career.

Speaker A: What is the best feedback that he gave you to grow?

Speaker B: You know, I think. I don't remember anything specifically that he said. It was more what he did. So what he did do was included me in everything, listen to me, asked my opinion on things. And so that was actually relatively new for me. And so, you know, being in all of the meetings, not just HR meetings, you know, he and I and the CFO sat in every month on every department's operational meeting. And every department was required to report out on what was going on with their people. And people were so integrated into the importance of the company that, you know, it was more of that than anything else. And that was so, um, formative to me, growing as a strategic leader.

Speaker A: Yeah, if you're just in your own silo, you are not making a difference. You have to understand how your function can support every other area that, that needs you. That's brilliant. Thank you. Pet, uh, peeves. Do you have a workplace pet peeve?

Speaker B: A workplace pet peeve. So I think my workplace pet peeves probably are similar to um, my day to day pet peeves like noise and distraction, perfume like things, things like that. But I think managers behaving badly would be my biggest pet peeve because I don't know, 90% of problems that I've seen over the course of my career can come back down to the manager. And that may not be that the manager is a bad manager. It may be that the manager's not a trained manage. May be that the manager doesn't know how to handle things and is trying to make the right decision. And so when we would have managers send people to HR because they didn't want to deal with an issue, that probably was my biggest pet peeve. Um, biggest pet peeve because. But then we look at it ourselves and were we training that, were we supporting the directors enough so that they were training their people? What we doing? So you know, it was, caused us to be self reflective. But also there's always that one manager that no matter how much you talk to them or train them, they're, they're still going to do things like that.

Speaker A: It's like go to the principal's office. It feels very remedial in that way. What is a manager behaving badly? So give me like a couple of things so that I could know what that looks like at work. I have my own list, but I'm curious what's on you?

Speaker B: Oh my gosh. How much time do you have? So, so like I've seen and over the years dealing, ignoring, um, of just like disclosing privileged information to people, um, that they couldn't disclose. I don't want to say like not towing the company line because I really believe in most companies. Managers should be entrepreneurial and have a degree of discretion. But they also should treat people like human beings and not ignore problems when they occur. So you know, I think that ignoring and that's something I've been guilty of over the years, if you have a problem and you just pretend it doesn't exist, it doesn't go away.

Speaker A: No, it doesn't. It gets worse. It doesn't. The odds are good and if it's a bad employee and you're hoping they're leaving, they never leave. Spoiler alert. They're always the last ones there.

Speaker B: Yep. And that call have you I want to fire so and so Okay, I know you've had a problem. Where's the documentation? Well, I don't have any.

Speaker A: Let me pull their performance review. All star. Oh, yay. No, you're gotta like, do a little bit of work. It's uncomfortable, but totally a good skill to have. It's like a muscle.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Give feedback. Anything else that I didn't ask that you'd like to share about HR or your experience or anything?

Speaker B: You know, what I didn't share was, you know, we talked about some fun stories, some tough stories, but how the, the stark difference and it was always a difficult profession, but the stark difference of how difficult HR was pre pandemic and post pandemic and how it's, um, gotten so difficult. So difficult. And I think it's a profession that if you're in it, you tend to deeply love, but that also creates real problems and real pain when things aren't going the way that they're supposed to be going or if you don't get the support. So the level of burnout. I faced a terrible, terrible, terrible burnout, um, a couple of years ago. But like, there is hope and there is community. And one of the best things people can do is to surround yourself with people who will lift you up and support you. I didn't always have that in my career, in my life. I do now. And I really wish that for everyone.

Speaker A: Mhm. It takes some effort, but it's worth it. And there are communities all across the world of HR people. Whether you're online or there's a local one or, you know, it is possible. And what I've gotten some feedback from, I think they're probably more, um, solo HR people who really enjoy this show because they get to hear stories, they get to feel validated that they're not alone. They had that thing happen, but they didn't have anybody to tell. So it really is just sharing wisdom. Um, um, but it resonated with some people to feel less isolated, I think, because it can be isolating if you're a small department or, you know, you don't have that. So. Any questions for me before we wrap?

Speaker B: No, no, I think that was great. And I think, yeah, I think it's, um. I love that, I love that people are sharing that because people aren't alone. And if people are finding like nothing out of listening to this, but other than you're not alone, that's totally worth it.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally. So thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker C: Confession is good for your soul. And in this case it's also great

Speaker A: for my podcast this week.

Speaker C: There is no workplace confession segment because I'm fresh out of stories and that's where you come in. Whether it's a small slip up or a monumental misstep, your confession could be just what the show needs. Submitting is easy and anonymous. Just head to cultureandstrategylab.com podcast and click the Record link. Record your confession as many times as you like from the cut comfort of your own phone and then hit Submit. No personal information is required. Help me keep the confessions coming and make this podcast even better. I can't wait to hear your stories.

Speaker A: People Problems don't solve themselves at, uh, Culture and Strategy Lab, we help you tackle the tough stuff. Engagement, retention, leadership, alignment, you name it. Let's build a culture that solves problems before they start. Visit cultureandstrategylab.com if you work in HR and have a story to share, please Visit my website, cultureandstrategylab.com Podcast stories are what we remember and how we connect, so please share yours with me.

Speaker C: Thanks.

Speaker A: Haiku for Tracy Tracy fell in love with HR and her partner Work worked out just right.