Episode 140: Tapping into the Potential of Neurostrengths with Morra Aarons-Mele

Speaker A: Welcome to the Workplace podcast in association with Dynamic Partners. We've got an incredible guest today and we're really excited for the insights and ideas they'll be sharing. There are so many practical learnings from this conversation that will make a difference to you, your team or your organization. Whether you're navigating leadership challenges, building high performing teams, or driving organizational changes, today's episode has something valuable for you. If your organization is interested in exploring this topic further or would benefit from a workshop, feel free to get in touch via our website, dynamicpartners.ie. now, let's start the conversation. Today's guest is Maura Arends Melaye. Maura is a speaker coach, strategist and author who helps leaders build strength by tuning into their inner lives. An anxious achiever herself, Mara knows that taking your mental and emotional health seriously is a leadership strength. Her ongoing work has been recognized by Mental Health America with their media Award in 2023. She is a LinkedIn Top 10 Voice in Mental Health and was shortlisted for the Thinkers 502023 Distinguished Achievement in Leadership Award. Her consulting clients include Fortune 500 companies, startups and US government agencies, and she also teaches executive education at the Harvard Kennedy School. In her decades long career, she has helped the world's largest organizations change minds and behaviors. Alongside speaking, coaching and consulting, Mara hosts a, uh, top ten management podcast, the anxious achiever, for LinkedIn presents. This podcast is a Webby Awards honoree and a Best Commute Signal award winner.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Workplace podcast. Today's topic is tapping into the potential of neuro strengths and joining me again is Maura Erin Melez. Uh, Maura, welcome to the worksite podcast.

Speaker C: Thanks William, it's so good to see you.

Speaker B: So last time we met at Thinkers50, it was so nice. Got its own. I got to get my picture taken with you. So a big shout out to Amy Gallo who introduced us in person and uh, also actually recent podcast guest Muriel Wilkins for taking the picture along with Frances Fry and Anne Morris. So it was really good because I got to get you to sign this book. And what I remember about that is when I got home after you signing my book in person, you said, william, did you really read this? I laughed so loud there, so I forgot to tell you that.

Speaker C: Oh God, that made my day. It really made my day. Thank you so much.

Speaker B: And what I remembered Most, uh, about Thinkers50 in our interactions was you were always that friendly face where in between sessions I could chat to. Um, what I really liked was you had that presence to do that self Care. And I really felt like you're a role model for me to actually, you know what, give yourself permission just to take a breather. If I'm honest. I was going to go, I should do more of that, you know. And you were just talking about. Yeah, yeah, I'm just taking a bit of time out. And I was just going, that is brilliant. Why did I not think of this? But you, the president to do it.

Speaker C: I find those events very overwhelming and, um, you know, full of, for me, just imposter feelings and anxiety. Uh, even though I have a good time. It's this weird dichotomy, but I think what I realized a few years ago was everybody feels a bit anxious at those things and that's okay.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's where this book has come from, the Anxious Achiever. Uh, which is so good. And a top charting podcast to go along with it. So this is our second episode. So if people are interested more about that book and the topic itself, the Anxious Achiever, definitely check that out. So when I was reading your research here on neurostrengths, we have a common mission to make work better for everyone. And really your focus especially is for those who don't fit the mold, isn't it?

Speaker C: Yeah, it always has been. It always has been. I didn't have as much language for it when I first started this almost 20 years ago, but. But I kept saying, why doesn't work work? You know, I think that that's been my mission. And as, as the field has evolved and I've now had the language for it, which I now understand is that a lot of us just have different brains. I mean, we all have different brains. We're all diverse. Um, it's been kind of an amazing journey. Not just for me, I think for many people who do this work.

Speaker B: And in your report then you're asking different business professionals, whether it was ADHD, anxiety, depression, ASD, ADHD, which I'm not even sure what that is. Bipolar, different learning differences or even brain differences. And I like the way that you've framed this in a positive frame rather than kind of something that has kind of gone maybe a bit more negative or minimizing of people and what they actually bring as in you focus on the entirety of the person rather than a little difference, isn't it?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think what I've learned, I've interviewed almost a thousand people at this point is that a. We all have a story. We all have a story. We show up at work and we Try to be professional and we try to put our best foot forward and act like we're happy and we laugh at each other's jokes, you know, and we all have a story. We're all camouflaging to some extent, right?

Speaker A: Which is good.

Speaker C: We have to, to get along and to get things done. And so we're all camouflaging, which just means that we are trying to fit in, right? To meet the norms. And for some people that's harder, right? Because we are neurodivergent. We think differently, we act different. Right. We present differently, our communication skills and needs are different. Our sensory needs are. I interviewed uh, a woman a couple days ago who's a chief marketing officer at a really impressive big tech company and she has audhd, which is autism. Adhd, adhd. And she said I often wear sunglasses in the office because the fluorescent lights really, really are hard for me. They give me migraines, I can't think well. And she's like, you know, at first my team thought it was weird and it is a little bit unusual, but now they're used to it, right? So we, we all try to fit in but sometimes we need what we need to do a good job and that's great. And I think that, that you and I both want to get to a place where people get what they need at work so they can be awesome.

Speaker B: And then you were saying in the research you have it framed as neuro strengths and you talk about yourself, where you, your mission comes from. First trying to understand your own tricky brain with your own um, journey and then it was obviously trying to help others. So you were able to come at it from a different lens. So there's a duality to it where there's superpowers and then there's challenges, isn't there?

Speaker C: Yes. And the anxious achievers, I think a very similar framework of, you know, uh, and this isn't just me, although they say all research is me. Search. But again, you know, having interviewed, having done so much qualitative research research and quantitative research, people who have lifelong anxiety, it is a double edged sword. We hate it, it drains us, it's hard, it makes our lives challenging, our relationships. But we kind of credit it a lot for where we are. And I think that what I found during neurostrengths, which is the topic of my next book, um, is that many people who have different brains, whether they have a diagnosis of ADHD or they're on the autism spectrum or they have um, a learning difference like DYSLEXIA or they have a mental illness. Um, they have gifts, a lot of them, they have huge gifts. And the data backs this up. Um, but they also have real challenges. And one of the chapters in my upcoming book is called great at your craft, bad at your job, because so many of the people I've interviewed, and this was true in school too, they're really smart, they're really good at what they're good at, but they have what's called a spiky profile of abilities, and they really struggle with things that other people might find, not a big deal, like sitting still or answering their emails.

Speaker B: So just with that then, because you talked about, you know, your own journey there, and even at the start of the podcast Thinkers 50, where you know, I was feeling that you were feeling of that, that imposter, do I feel I belong here? And all that. And with that, like, you know, what is the path forward for me? If I'm listening in here and I'm struggling a little bit, like, is it that I understand myself first and then I ask for accommodations at work or what's my responsibility? And, uh, on the other side of the coin then, is there too much expected of the workplace there? And, um, like, is there a balance to be struck then as well? Because there might be other people here that listening kind of going, there's a lot going on at work. I have to accommodate for this. So there's lots of different competing interests here. But I think where your common point is, if people's needs are met, they're going to thrive, isn't it?

Speaker C: Yeah, 100%. Um, listen, if you're listening to this podcast and you relate to, to what I'm saying, you feel like, oh, man, I have a tricky brain. Maybe you have a diagnosis, maybe it's just a suspicion. If you're listening to this podcast, you are an ambitious person who likes their career, hopefully, or wants to find a career that they like. Right? You're driven, you're career identified. Right. We would say, okay, great, so what do you need to lean into your strengths, minimize your challenges and be amazing? I would say, I mean, my prescription in my, in my forthcoming book is, is pretty straightforward. And again, it's based on all the research, which is the first thing is you have to understand yourself. And um, this is true for all leadership. You have to understand yourself, you have to be self aware and you have to really identify your strengths. It's a strengths based perspective. What am I uniquely great at? Great. Now what's challenging for me? Where do I constantly run into roadblocks. Are there patterns? Right? Do I sabotage myself? Are there certain things at work that I just constantly bump up against? You know, one of the things we know from the research is that people who are neurodivergent are under promoted, often underemployed. And the structure of work, which is about so much more than what we actually do for a living, let's be honest, it's about politics, it's about navigating tricky situations, it's about power differences. It's about so much what I call the work beneath the work. They struggle with that, understand that and then think about what is the calculus of how I can play more to my strengths and minimize my challenges. In this work environment, it is very challenging to disclose a disability. I'm just going to be honest about that. Uh, now maybe it's different in Europe, but I'm in the U.S. we all know what's happening in the U.S. right now. It's not a great place to be different. And only 10% of people in my study had formally disclosed a disability or a need for accommodation. About a third had, like informally. Right. So that might be telling your team, like, you know, I have ADHD and so maybe it's hard for me to do X, Y and Z. I'm not going to go out there and tell you that. You need to say to your boss, I have this, I need this. That's how it has to be. Because unfortunately, the world is not just or fair and the world is biased and stigmatizing and stereotyping. So that's where it's a little bit of a dance. And, um, in my book and in my research, I really help people figure out how to get what they need without losing power or status. That is really the key.

Speaker B: So just on that, then you talked about doing the dance dance. There some, some managers might be listening in here and they really want to help a team member and they feel like the team member is playing to their strengths. But the other stuff that they find challenging is actually critical to the role. Then as they're like, leaving it to the other team members to do that and it's causing frustration the team, you know, and this is what stuff that I've, I've, I suppose I've experienced in teams and during my coaching then. And then you talked about that, how people sabotage themselves, uh, as well. So if I'm a manager struggling with a team member that pro, I probably have my, my doubts there. And they don't feel safe enough to do that. And they might. That might be a privacy thing as well. Okay, yeah. Um, because of that, might feel safe or whatever. Like, how do I have someone that's. Maybe it's causing tension in the team where that critical part of their job, it's not happening. And I'm like, okay, what's the workaround here?

Speaker C: I mean, we all run into this. I hear this all the time, right? And I hear it. I hear it from both sides. I hear it from a manager who's stretched thin, who's frustrated, who just. They don't have enough resources themselves. And so spending so much time on a team member who they feel just isn't doing their job doesn't feel fair or good. But of course, the team member who, quote, isn't doing their job, they don't feel good either. Right? They feel awful. It's not their fault. And so it's really, really tricky. The only way forward is through honest conversation and trying to figure out if there's a workaround, if there's a fit, if they're in the wrong role. You know, I mean, I think a piece of it is that a lot of us, and I speak my own story as an example, really struggle in traditional hierarchical corporate structures. I could not last in a, uh, traditional corporate structure. My. I call it my tam. My need for time management, the way that I experience time during the workday did not fit with corporate structures. I don't like to be told where I'm going to be. I have high agency needs, and I like to work when I work. I'm not defending it. This is my brain. It's how I am. I tried. My need for autonomy is very high. And this is often true among, um, a lot of neurodivergent people. Although it's true for all of us. We like to feel that we have agency over our decisions. My attentional needs are different, uh, eg, I struggle to pay attention to some things that other people seem to be able to pay attention to. And my motivation is different. What motivates me is different than many neurotypical people. And so I had to figure out, I m want to be a chief marketing officer in a big corporation, but I don't think I'm going to be able to stick it out. I want too much flexibility. I don't like office politics. And I went to work for myself 20 years ago and never looked back. On the other hand, I have a lot of people in my survey and in my research who do work very happily in organizations. They figure it out they figure it out. And if they constantly. I had a client once who just was not on top of his email and it was driving. He had adhd, he was driving everybody just bananas. He had to figure it out because it was an email based culture. It's a bit of a give and take where both sides have to be understanding. But honestly I feel like most managerial relationships are like that. I mean, I mean there's no perfect employee having been a manager. I mean you can speak to this too. And the manager yourself, you're not perfect. What if you have adhd? Right, yeah. Um, and so I think we have to get to a place where we can say how much are we willing to give, how much can we change? And if we can't make this work, is there another role that we can find?

Speaker B: So you talked then about, you know, the isolation and stigma and emotional exhaustion on people then as well as like a career impact. Um, there. And just with that is this, this really is a hidden struggle going on sometimes for a lot of people that people actually don't realize they're missing out on, uh, wage rises, promotions, you know, opportunities. Um, and their strengths really are being played too as well because sometimes there's misassumptions where they can't read a room where actually they probably can read a room better than most people or the, you know, they might be able to focus on something. But I know for you for a fact, can hyper focus even though you said, you know.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's just different.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. So a lot of it is, is is to do with education, isn't it? And it's educating ourselves a citizen. What are my needs right now? It's about that self awareness then as well. But knowing then where you need to dial up then 100%.

Speaker A: If this conversation has you thinking about getting better at conflict in your team, now is a good time to act on it. Resolution Intelligence helps leaders bend the arc of conflict toward healthy resolution, navigating challenges with confidence and saving time, money and relationships. Visit resolution-intelligence.com to get your personal Resolution Intelligence report and take the first step,

Speaker C: which is a classic leadership. Right? That's why we get coaching. Right. None of us is born perfectly able to take on all the many elements of a job. Right. A leadership role or a big role. It's a bit like a stew. There's many different ingredients, right. And some we're very strong on and some we're weaker on and we need help. But I think the thing that's really, really fascinating to me is that A lot of the people, and listen, I just want to be clear here. I work with people who are very high functioning, right? Their disabilities are there, but they are not profound. So that's very important. This is not typical, um, always of a disabled population, but there are so many of us out there and it's that they are exhausted. They have lived a life of criticism, of self doubt. They probably got yelled at in school. I know I got yelled at in school. They probably feel a bit of shame, right? They wonder why they can't fit in. They wonder why what's so easy for other people is so hard for them. And on the other side of the coin, and this isn't, uh, what we talk about in public, but I want to talk about it, is that many of the people that I work with are what's called twice exceptional. They are extremely cognitively gifted, they are super smart and they have incredible skills. So they have this weird situation of struggling in some areas like acting the right way during a meeting, right? Not blurting out what they think guilty or struggling with their emails. And yet they're so frigging smart. They're so creative, they're so innovative. They're four steps ahead of everyone the whole time. And so they live this life of like. And I, I've heard this quote over and over again. I'm so much smarter and better at my job than John. Why did John get promoted and I didn't? It sucks.

Speaker B: And um, there's something about really getting to know people because I'm thinking about my interactions with you, right? Because.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: When I was reading your body language, I was going to go and I hope you're comfortable and stuff like that because you know, I've read your book, right? I know, I know what's going on. I kind of feel like I know you a lot already in your podcast and all that. Um, but if I had not known you, I might have come away thinking differently. And I think there's something about, um, they're really knowing someone and your team and really getting to understand your team member there. That the way that we work now at the moment, where it's hybrid and it can somewhat be transactional action, get your work done there, that we don't spend enough time on actually getting to know each other. Then like not everybody has a book and a podcast that we get to know them, you know, um, and, and what are your thoughts on that then? Because there's something about that then as well, there's a team focus. But then I'm going to go into an organization lens later on, but just on the team lens. Can you speak to that a little bit then? Of course. Really?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Understanding each other.

Speaker C: I mean, I think when I think about the best teams that I've ever worked with, they really do understand each other. And the best teams actually sort of have even a shorthand of how they communicate. Right. And they embrace each other's quirks, they embrace each other's strengths and differences. Right. They might say, oh, William, you're so good at editing. Can I send you this report? Because I'm just. I'm not the best at, like, catching, you know, so. So we do that in natural human interaction, if we feel safe, if we feel the psychological safety to be ourselves. And I think that that's, at the end of the day, what it comes back to. And so I actually think that m most good teams where they do feel that people have their backs, their leader has their back, um, they feel that comfort. I mean, that's been my experience. I've been on teams. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I've been on teams where everybody has disclosed, and this may be inappropriate, but has disclosed what kind of antidepressant they're on at a retreat, just in a fun conversation. I'm like, great. I mean, we were all on something. Uh, so I think that oftentimes that can happen. However, there are lots of teams where everyone is, like, rigid and scared of their shadow because the stakes are so high. Because it's not a safe culture. It's a toxic culture. And in that case, the work is much harder. And honestly, that's not a safe place to be yourself. And we know this from the research. It's not a safe place to be yourself, no matter what your difference is. What I want, obviously, is a world in which we are more comfortable being ourselves. And that starts with feeling less of a need to hide who we are. The funny thing about neurodivergence, at least in the US and I think in the UK certainly, I don't know about Ireland, is that it. It really has exploded. I read that there, um, were more Google searches for neurodivergent than there were for Taylor Swift. There's such a need in the culture for people to understand why things are hard for them, why their emotions are so strong, all of the things, why they're so good at certain things. I actually have hope that this will change more than accepting other forms of difference. Honestly will. I really. I do feel very hopeful, having been in the women's movement. For 30 years. Geez. Um, those numbers aren't advancing. Um, but I think that there's something about the prevalence of thinking differently and having brain differences, um, that makes me feel hopeful for accepting it.

Speaker B: Where I think we are in this is, it's a bit like there's so much information coming at us now.

Speaker C: So much.

Speaker B: And it takes time to digest and people are overwhelmed. And it's the complexity of it. And it's a bit like me at the start. I didn't know what autism ADHD was. I was like, oh, that's new. I don't mind. I saw the report, but I skipped that as I must come back and research that. But I didn't. And that's what goes on for people is like, there's so much going on in my, my own life if I'm the sandwich generation and I'm worried about mortgage and stuff like that, and there's resource constraints and it's like, oh. And I now have to contend with this, whether it's understanding myself or understanding the team member. And I think there's a lot going on. And I think once we get a shared language, as you were saying, like 20 years ago, you didn't have the language. Once we have that language and understanding, then I think there's going to be a convergence then to say, listen, we need to align in a way that's more beneficial for everybody, for society. Um, it does start in teams. It still starts in organizations. How do we create that safe community?

Speaker C: I mean, it starts one on one. I guess what I would say is that I get it, we're all overwhelmed. We're just trying to keep our head on straight. But is what we've been doing really working that well? No. When you look at the lack of engagement, at people's disconnection, at how burnt out everybody is at, uh, you know, the fact that most managers feel so full of stress and dread that many of them have stomach aches constantly and GI symptoms and they can't sleep and stress is through the roof. I want to be like, okay, great, let's keep doing what we're doing. Let's keep not talking about things or designing work to fit or being understanding. How's that working out for us? Because I don't think we're in very good shape as a society. As work cultures, we have to do things a different way. If we just keep stuffing it all down, we will literally all make ourselves sick.

Speaker B: Uh, and this is where you talk about the research then, about conflict, emotional regulation, and, uh, I Do a lot of work with conflict in high performance teams and obviously I'm a mediator as well. And within that then I think there's that piece of what's uh, a workable solution that we can both live with that one to one piece first. So you may not be aware of this, but myself and Luke, my um, partner, um, in business we have Resolution Intelligence, which is a framework to help people navigate conflict. We're bending the arc of conflict towards resolution and it's really about creating that space here. This is what I like about this. Then it's like with the people orientation, the process orientation and the progress, what are the results that we need to get? And within that framework I think there is space then to say, listen, how do we collaborate, how do we accommodate? What are the solutions to fixer there? These are all the different resolution styles that we have. And it's about that negotiation say, listen, what's the optimal outcome? And I think a lot of people do not use the full range of those resolution styles there to say, listen, let's talk about the conflict, let's talk about my frustrations and the team member and say, listen, what's the best way around this? You know, and you were talking about that as well. Uh, maybe it's a process, maybe to change the role or maybe we get somebody in and somebody does a half job somewhere else where they're playing to the strengths all the time.

Speaker C: Well, let's talk it through because I actually, gosh, I should put. I've been looking for a solution for chapter nine, which is how to ask for you want and get it without losing power of status. Maybe I should borrow, you know, I'll quote you of course, your framework because let's talk it through. So let's use the example of you don't answer your emails. So yeah, you're my boss, I'm me who has maybe I have adhd and um, I'm really, really behind on email and everybody is frustrated with me. They feel like they can't trust me. They don't know if I'm paying attention, they don't know if I'm following through. But I'm excellent at what I do.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm going to quote a different podcast guest. So let's go back to Amy, our

Speaker C: friend Amy, the best Amy Geller.

Speaker B: Right. Okay. So a brilliant book. Ah, getting along. And one of the things that I just recorded a podcast with her actually that's coming soon, right? Or actually by the. This comes out is already, uh, out there. So Tune into that. And we talk about workplace conflict. And every time we meet, we talk about this thing of cleaning up your side of the street. What is it? What's the trigger in it for me? What do I need to, uh, get reassurance on first so I can tame my own feelings? And this is where I often say to people, behind every complaint is a hidden desire. There's a hidden deed there. And, uh, once you can name the need, you can actually calm down a little bit. So when I do mediations, I'm really trying to figure out what's behind the complaint. Is it acknowledgment? Is it a sense of belonging that you're looking for or whatever? That's my other segue then into, uh, another podcast guest called Zach. Ah, Mercurial. Brilliant guy, brilliant framework. And he is the NAN model that people have a need to be noticed. That acknowledgment, uh, and recognition piece. Then it's affirmed, am I doing something that really adds value to the team? I'm like, you know, um, and then it's needed. Like, if I wasn't here, would it be noticed? So that NAN model really, you know, that I thought that was wonderful. So within the. Let's go to the emails, then is. Is obviously, we know with feedback, we don't do it in front of a team. If people have that, um, fear of rejection that's going on, it's about creating that environment to say, listen, I think a really valuable member team, and it's framing it in the citizen. What do you think yourself? Where do you think you're doing well? And just within that, then is that coaching approach, I think, really works well

Speaker C: because people know, they know, they feel terrible.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that goes back to another podcast guest, Amy Edmondson. Is here's the goal. You don't avoid it, you go, here's the goal. And it's about having a psychological safety say, listen, what is it that's going on here? And it's about understanding, is it a basic, complex or intelligent failure that's going on? And, uh, sometimes it could be different contributing factors where it's complex, it's a risk that you took if it's intelligent or some things, you're not doing some basic things. So let's go through that and what's getting in the way to that and what are the workarounds there? And then I think if it's within a team environment, then it's actually having a conversation with the other person to help them have the conversation with the team. Whether it's one on one or as a group or whatever. That's, that's kind of my take on it.

Speaker C: I love that because I think what often unfortunately does happen is he can't do the job. I'm, um, done. And what I think you're asking and what you're saying in your model is we want to get to a mutually satisfactory agreement. Right. And so, but that takes, that takes a lot of, I don't know, what's the word? Does it take maturity? Does it take thoughtfulness, self awareness? Time? It takes time, yeah.

Speaker B: And uh, I think it's. There's an emotional and mental energy to it as well. Like if not a good space, that's where that self care comes in. And then something else Amy Gallo said is, is you're, you're, you're stealing yourself of an opportunity to improve things. You know, and uh, look at all this. Like that's, that's. That negative piece is eaten away at your positive energy all the time you talk about that emotional bank. It's really important that you go into that with that self care that you're, you're, you're ready to meet that person as a whole person rather than seeing them as damage. And I think that's why I like this frame of neuro strength is we're seeing people for who they are. What I like about your book, uh, then as well, and this will go back to the other episode that we did is you talk about your upbringing and you know, you might have said like, you know, someone shouting at you or. I think what I remember from that, I think it was two years ago we did it. Um, but it stood out in my head is like, you know, that pressure of being. If your parents had a party, you had to entertain the guests. Is that correct?

Speaker C: Yes. Oh my God.

Speaker B: That has stood out in my head. You know, thank God. But, but, but I think we blame. Some people blame too much on the neuro strength when actually there's emotional thing going on as well.

Speaker C: Uh, 100% it's both.

Speaker B: And, and I think it's. That's where I was going to turn on about how do we take responsibility. I think there's a bit of, you know, well, uh, maybe there's more on here and that's where it's like you need to take on, I suppose, responsibility to go. What else is going on here is that sense of curiosity and, and that's what my, my co partner in, in um, and co creator of Resolution Intelligence and the resolution style is Luke Monahan says is that disposition of curiosity. But sometimes we like to shine the light on, on someone else rather than shining on me. And actually that's where resolution comes from. Like I'm looking at you to a resolution of a screen monitor and I liked it to play on light then as well, you know and actually the colors um, of resolution intelligence is a bit like you know, the pixel of a screen. You know, it's, it's um, red, green, blue. That's what we have as our colors that we need to see things through different lenses and the rgb.

Speaker C: But that's the skill of perspective. Taking this is it which, which is the life skill.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And that's what we're coming to. A resolution intelligence then is, is how do we look at ourselves in a light that go. There's more to me than just my newer strength. There's everything else that, that has shaped me, my culture, my identity, my upbr. That's the best thing about your book is it shines a light on that. So I think that's uh, what you've done really well.

Speaker C: Listen, if everybody could do what you just said, the world would be utopia because we would have the self understanding to show up as imperfect but self actualized humans. Right? Of this is me. I'm trying to be the best I can but I'm not great at everything and I struggle and. But that's okay. I love myself anyway. Tell me about you instead. What we get. And um, this is why I'm obsessed with anxiety. Because anxiety is the layer beyond all this. Part of the reason why I, the boss, can't have a productive conversation with you about the emails is that maybe I have a kid with ADHD and I'm really anxious about that kid. Or maybe my performance review wasn't that great and I'm really anxious about my job. Or maybe I have to pay for College and it's $92,000 a year and I'm really worried. So that layer is everywhere and it gets in the way. Unless we can do what you just said, which is that this is my story, this is my stuff and uh, I know it and I'm okay with it.

Speaker A: If this conversation has you thinking about getting better at uh, conflict in your team, now is a good time to act on it. Resolution Intelligence helps leaders bend the arc of conflict toward healthy resolution. Navigating challenges with confidence and saving time, money and relationships. Visit resolution-intelligence.com to get your personal Resolution Intelligence report and take the first step.

Speaker B: And that's that uh, aspect of leadership then is I think what I've learned about leadership is not just a title or position, it's a behavior. You know, and when you think about leadership, then I see in conflicts in the workplace where my teen's performance is a direct reflection of me, and then I over identify with it and then I over react or over emotional to it. And rather than, you know, as Carol Kaufman, who is on the podcast again, she talks about leaning in and leaning out. And um, you know, I do think there's that coaching piece there to say, listen, allow me to understand there, because what's going on, because it's that basic trust that needs to go on is, do I trust this person is out to sabotage me. But here's the thing I go back to is, is. Is if I'm sabotaging myself, um, from an emotional point of view and I'm looking at through the lens of neurodiversity, that is not helpful for me as a person. And I think it's, it's the wisdom to know the difference. There's the nuance there, and I think that's what your work is really shining a light on there. So this is what the podcast is all about. I only have my framework, resolution, intelligence, how to do it. But there's so many different contexts and different ways of looking at it. And I don't have the superpowers that you have. Like, I have my own gifts. But you see it through a lens where it's really important for all of society to understand different people's perspectives. Um, and this is where, you know, I was at the podcast. I'm naming all my podcasts now. Kartik, um, Ramana, about the Age of Outrage. It's polarization is on, is that we need to have some shared perspectives to say, actually we're focused on doing this together. And this is where we need teams to do it first, then organizations, and then organizations become role models for other organizations and then societies. So for me when I started out on this 15 or 16 years ago was if you can create changes in teams and organizations, society is going to thrive as a result. Um, and that's what really is my mission to workplaces better, because everything is better as a result.

Speaker C: Then we spend most of our time at work also like, and most of us are so unhappy. You know, my favorite statistic is that your manager has more of an effect on your mental health than your spouse.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So I mean 100%, you know, I just coming back to what I said about how everyone has A story. I don't believe that we should all. I mean, I am American. I'm very woo woo. I go to retreats where I cry and get in touch with past souls. Like, personally, I love that stuff. I'm not saying that we should all show up at work and be like, you know, tell me about your childhood. Yeah, we can.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: But I think that there has to be a basic compassion for each other that nobody shows up at work. A blank slate. Yeah, we all have stuff that stuff makes us awesome and that stuff can make us a real pain in the butt. And we just gotta have some compassion for it and then be able to talk, like you say about it, like adults, and navigate conflict skillfully. These are very, very hard skills, though.

Speaker B: And it's really about taking that responsibility as well, isn't it? On ourselves. Whether I'm a manager, but me as a person then as well. And I think that was my biggest wake up call. You know, I got to, I think 24, 25 and I says I have to take more responsibility.

Speaker C: I'm shocked.

Speaker B: Yeah, we're all in our 20s there, you know, but, but people are listening here for, okay, like, what are some of the things from a workplace point of view I could do more of? So this is the workplace podcast. And, and you, you've done some, some research. Uh, here is there things that if I'm a manager, I could do more of? Because there's part of me thinking that if I put in a workplace policy and I know it's probably not flavor of the month, uh, right now in the US Is there things that I can do that is not one size fits all? Is there something that I can do within my team or something like that where this is how we can, um, help people thrive in my change.

Speaker C: I'm so, I'm very excited about the team level. I'll never forget Amy Edmondson said to me, you know, psychological safety is a team thing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: It happens on the team level. And to me, a team usually is a beautiful kind of semi autonomous unit. And we all know that great teams are, uh, where it's at.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Everyone in the company is like, why is that team so good? I want to be on that team. And often it's because they have their own ecosystem. And so what I find is that if you're the leader of a team or you're a member of the team who likes being on the team, wants to keep your job, you need. And Callie Yost is the queen of this. Read everything. Kali's written you need to figure out how to create high performance. Flexibility. The number one thing that people want, whether they are neurodivergent or neurotypical, they want the agency to manage their day, their workflow as much as possible and their decisions as much as possible. And the strength that you have as a manager. Unless, uh, listen, if you're a shift director at a hospital and you need your surgeon there for 12 hours, different story. But if you're most knowledge workers certainly these days, is when, how and where can you work the best. That's okay with me, as long as you get your work done. I mean that's what Callie would say. Yeah, I mean that's kinda it. The other piece that's really important is clarity. Clear expectations. We forget because of our own neuro makeup and our management styles that maybe what we're communicating is now what the other person hears.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: And this is where the disconnect happens too. I want that done asap. And you know, like Jim's kind of a big thinker, so it should be kind of like a big thinker presentation. Like that is a typical direction that I would give to someone on my team because that's how I think. And then you're sitting there, especially if you're like on the spectrum or whatever, your neuroprofiling, you're like, what did she just tell me? And then you're anxious and then you're stressed out and then you don't know what to do. And so you're so clarity.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: What do I actually mean? I interviewed an incredible leader, Kevon Stassen, Dr. Kevon Stassen, who's a world renowned astrophysicist who runs a big lab at Vanderbilt University and he also runs the Frist center on Autism and he specializes in hiring and developing especially autistic talent in the field of space science, but the hard sciences in general. And the biggest aha. He said to me was we just had to try to say what we meant. Like we don't say what we mean. We use euphemisms, we make jokes, we have our little shorthand. We're unclear because we don't know. We haven't taken the time to think it through. Clarity. So flexibility, agency and clarity. Honestly, if you can nail that, everyone's going to be happier.

Speaker B: I might add one to that.

Speaker C: Yeah, please.

Speaker B: Before I do, um, I've recorded two podcasts with our wonderful friend that we have in common. Kali Host.

Speaker C: She's my mentor.

Speaker B: Well, you know, we're co mentors. We're mentoring each other.

Speaker C: No.

Speaker B: There we go. Announced on the podcast. Sorry, Kali. Maybe I'm making that public now. Uh, but yeah, uh, we're helping each other out. But this is, um, another thing that when you talked about the clarity then is consistency, then.

Speaker C: Oh, uh, you're right. I forgot that a hundred percent.

Speaker B: So, so sometimes people will do it and then it's a short term, and then it's like. Or back here again. And, And I think that's the big thing is how do we solve for consistency? Like, uh, what are your thoughts on that? Because you, You. You're the expert on, On. On from a. In your diversity point of view. Like, for me, from. I would suggest maybe I'm not completely neurotypical.

Speaker C: Um, I don't think anyone is.

Speaker B: I have my doubts. Um, but for me, it's, It's. It's about habit and structure and, and, and, and discipline. And I, I think some people feel like there's a mismatch there. But when I saw you, I think it was 50. You were like, you were disciplined enough to step out and gather yourself and have that presence of mind to do that, you know, but maybe you're consistent anyways. But, but for other people who may not be consistent, like our managers who's struggling with someone who's consistent, you know, like, ah, what advice would you give them?

Speaker C: Well, I will say just in general, chaotic management is the number one or two complaint we often hear. Chaotic. Think about the impact of constant reorgs as coaches, right? We hear, oh, my God, we're going through our 6 3org in five years. Nobody knows what the heck we're doing. We hate. We as humans, we don't like uncertainty. That makes us anxious. Chaos makes us anxious. And so, yes, 100% as a manager, the more consistent you can be, even if it's chaos above you is really important. So thank you. I forgot that one. But I will tell you, the funny thing about neurostrengths is, um, I hate consistency. And I am very happy in chaos. I'm bipolar. And, uh, my brain is a little bit like, uh, a puppy. On a good day, when I'm feeling up, my brain's a little bit like a puppy. It's like, what are we gonna do now? Oh, that's so exciting. Oh, I'm gonna go over there. Oh, no, wait, I'm gonna go over there. Like, I literally, I can handle chaos. I love it. I hate doing the same thing every day. I love, I crave novelty. I have worked with people I had A colleague for many years on the spectrum, on the autism spectrum.

Speaker A: She.

Speaker C: I would drive her insane. I would drive her insane. She couldn't pin me down. I was so vague. I was all over the place. And we finally had a really funny conversation about it. You know, it's like, Maura, uh, you gotta give me a list of what you want me to do. And I was like, oh, okay, I could do that. So I think, I hate to say it's a one size fits all. Although I am a big fan of consistent management, I think it comes back to how do we work best in my perfect world, we all take a work styles questionnaire. We all understand how we like to receive information, how we like to communicate information, the times of day that we like to work. There's uh, all different kinds of examples on the Internet. These are like basic foundational principles of the team ecosystem that can really help us get along, as Amy would say, um, in the manner that suits our brain while also having norms. Because we gotta have norms, it can't be total free for all. Um, that's what I think.

Speaker B: So just on that then, consistency. So say for example, I'm supposed to doing something consistently for my team.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And sometimes I do it and sometimes I don't. Um, there. So that's like, if we were to workshop that, then is, is I go into my work styles there. And then what I would do is I say, okay, this is it. But how do I, once I have the understanding. That doesn't solve for consistency though.

Speaker C: No, it doesn't. That's your work. Uh, I mean, that's the thing. Right. So I think, uh, I think, and I've done this obviously with my teams for years, is I'm bad at this. This is not how I roll. But I understand that you might need something different. So let's create a shared expectation and try to stick to it. And if I don't stick to it, you can feel free to call me out. I've interviewed managers over the years who have variations of this. I mean, one of my favorite examples was a manager who, um, she, she had a lot of anxiety. She got triggered by certain situations and surprise bad news was a big anxiety trigger for her.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: It is for most of us. And she was so good. She said when I would start work at a new job or with my team, I would say to them, I'm not good with surprise bad news. It sets me to a bad place. I'm not telling you to hide stuff from me because I need to know, but here's how I would love you to try to present to me when you have something that you need to deliver, don't send me a text message. You know, and I think that. I think it's okay to say things like that.

Speaker B: Yeah. What about Shem? Um, if you're rejection, you know, because the.

Speaker C: That.

Speaker B: That appears a lot in conflict, like, I don't want to fall out with you, you know, so. So I'm not going to hurt your feelings. And then it's going to hold back. But it's like that Kim Scott stuff that, you know, it's. It's that we're not fully that candor enough with people. Okay. That radical candle. So. So that fear rejection, like, how do I. How do I get over it? Or how do I get help someone else overcome that fear of rejection?

Speaker C: I mean, this to me is a really tough one. I was just talking with Tomas Chamorro Primucic, who I know has had his stuff on candor. I think we all lie to each other all the time. I have never seen a workplace. I know there are examples that is candorful all the time. I think it's our human self preservation and it's safer. Often I think the question is, when you're in a relationship that you value and there's really a problem that needs to be addressed, can you have the courage to have that conversation? But you need to do it with care, because again, we all have our stories. If I grew up in a household where I was publicly shamed all the time, that that is gonna send me to a place. My husband is like, you could criticize my husband all day long. And he's like, he's amazing. It's his superpower. He'll be like, sorry, I'll do better. He just doesn't. It doesn't wound his soul. If you tell me that I did a bad job, it will wound my soul. I'm so sensitive. So I think part of our caring for each other is knowing that and then really investing in the skill to have difficult conversations anyway. But the truth is, is we all avoid the truth all day long, and we lie like crazy to each other all day long.

Speaker B: And that's actually a very good book. Uh, Tomas's book, Don't be Yourself. He's. He's also a podcast guest. And what I like about it is we all mask, you know, uh, in some way because that's how society works.

Speaker C: We all camouflage. We all mask. I mean, I think the masking, camouflaging thing Is interesting to me. It's like I just started learning about it a few years ago. But basically, you know, many people would say that camouflage is the more neutral term. Right. Just trying to fit in. Masking is when you deliberately hide a piece of yourself because it will be shamed or judged negatively. So it's a little bit more dangerous in a way, the stakes are higher. Um, but I do believe we all mask.

Speaker B: Yeah. So my final question. Knowing what you know now about neuro strengths, and I love that reframe, what advice would you give your younger self?

Speaker C: Oh, God. I, um, think that I have a really typical story in that I. I think that I started out with so much potential. I had huge jobs when I was in my 20s. I was promoted very quickly to senior management. And my particular makeup, which I've written now three books about, couldn't really. I didn't have the skill set to handle it because of my neuro profile. Nobody understood that. Nobody took me aside and said, maura, you've got a really big future. Let's work on this. Because it was kind of like the pre mentoring era. Um, I'm 50, so I'm like, I'm 49. And I've always wondered if I had had someone who said to me, like, we can do this together.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Would I not have left and started my own thing? Would I have. Would I have had some, like, big title at a time, big company? I don't know. I'll never know. I've been an entrepreneur since 2006. Very happy. Um, but I, I don't want other people's options to be limited in the way that mine were because there's something about the workplace code that they don't feel tapped into.

Speaker B: So is it about having neurostrent, uh, mentors within that, or is it people who are neurostrant aware? Let's call it that as well, because it might be, say, for example, I have a child who has, um, a neurostrent. And then because I'm more aware or I have the language or I know the challenges, then I'm able to mentor somebody else at work because of my personal experience or my own actual personal experience. If I do have a neuro strength,

Speaker C: everyone in my family, all five of us, has a profile. And the one thing I've learned is that mom, wife, slash shepherd of all of this, and myself included, is that there's a need for advocacy. There's a need to be a translator sometimes, and there's a need for compassion. But surely that's the world we all want to live in is where nobody doesn't get to do what they're meant to do just because of a dumb barrier like email.

Speaker B: So this is all about creating a workplace that everybody has that sense of belonging that everybody can thrive. Mara, thank you so much for taking the time to chat to me today. It's been so great and we have so many guests that we have and people that we have in common. I'm really looking forward to meeting you again in person at Thinkers50.

Speaker C: Me too.

Speaker A: Thanks so much for listening to the Workplace Podcast in association with Dynamic Partners. We really appreciate you being part of the conversation. Want to start the conversation about leadership in your organization? At UH Dynamic Partners, we help leaders and um, teams build a culture of performance that drives real results. Visit dynamicpartners.ie to find out more about our workshops and coaching services or email infoynamicpartners. Uh IE to start the conversation. We're ambitious for your leadership. Are you.