Episode 135: Conflict Conversations at Work with Amy Gallo

Speaker A: Welcome to the Workplace podcast in association with Dynamic Partners. We've got an incredible guest today and we're really excited for the insights and ideas they'll be sharing. There are so many practical learnings from this conversation that will make a difference to you, your team, or your organization. Whether you're navigating leadership challenges, building high performing teams, or driving organizational changes, today's episode has something valuable for you. If your organization is interested in exploring this topic further or would benefit from a workshop, feel free to get in touch via our website, dynamicpartners.ie. now, let's start the conversation. Today's guest is workplace expert Amy Gallo. Amy writes and speaks about gender, interpersonal dynamics, difficult conversations, feedback and effective communication. She is the best selling author of Getting how to Work with Anyone, Even Difficult People and um, the HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict, as well as hundreds of articles for Harvard Business Review. For the past four years, Amy has co hosted HBR's popular Women at Work podcast, which examines the struggles and successes of women in the workplace. She is frequently sought out by media outlets, uh, for her perspective on workplace dynamics, conflict and difficult conversations. Her advice has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, Marketplace, and the Austin American Statesman.

Speaker B: Amy Gallo, welcome back to the Workplace podcast. Uh, lovely to see you again. So for our listeners, you're in for an absolute treat here with Amy Gallo. We're going to talk about conflict conversations at, uh, work. And Amy is the, the nicest person ever. She made my life so much easier. Thinkers50 so I was walking around, wandering on where am I going to sit? Feeling a bit lost, and there was a friendly face that just waved at me. And then you started introducing me to other people who were on the podcast, like Muriel Wilkins and Mara. Uh, and it was so nice to get her pictures taken with the books. Uh, so welcome back to the Workplace podcast.

Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you so much. I mean, I know we have so many shared interests, especially the topic of conflict, but obviously connecting with people too is a shared interest. And I have been there. That moment where you walk into a ginormous room where you're not sure who you know who you're gonna see. And it's just, I was genuinely just happy to see you. And I know you've connected with so many authors who were there, so I was happy to reintroduce you and connect you.

Speaker B: You were, you were so kind. We recorded a podcast before episode 96 on transforming conflict, and that was a brilliant conversation. And how we started it was, it's about cleaning up your side of the street. So when there's, can you just go into that mindset for people? What's, what's going on for people, when you mean by that, cleaning up your side of the street?

Speaker C: Yeah, this is something I learned from my friend whose son was actually going through a really hard time. And, uh, her son's therapist told her about this, which is that this idea, and I think it's actually taken from maybe from AA or another one of the sort of recovery programs. It's, you know, you can't, if you're going to try to resolve something with someone, conflict, a disagreement, some, some, something you need to apologize for going over to their side of the street with your trash and saying, okay, let's resolve this is just going to bring more trash to the conversation. And so the cleaning up your side of the street is really trying to get cle clear on your part in the disagreement or the conflict, but also just trying to really understand yourself a little better. Right. Why am I so triggered by this? Why is this, why does this matter to me? You know, just trying to be a little more clear and self aware about your role, about what you're bringing to the conversation, sort of any preconceived notions, really trying to address any biases you might be bringing so that you can show up to the conversation as open and collaborative as possible.

Speaker B: And that's sometimes confusing for people, isn't it? Because it's kind of going, oh, is it my stuff or is it their stuff? Or what is it? Um, I'm really trying to resolve here, and I'm, I'm, am I being really biased towards my point of view and I might be stuck a little bit. So, so say, for example, I'm in the middle where I'm just kind of going, is it my stuff or their stuff? What advice would you give people on that then, Amy?

Speaker C: Well, I think that question is like, of, uh, is it my stuff? Is it their stuff? Is. In some ways, I think most of us engage in that, not wanting it to be our stuff. We engage in that because we're, we want the other person to be wrong because we want to walk over that other side of the street and be like, oh, you're so much trash here. If you clean this up, everything will be fine. Uh, one of the things I really try to do is, and I talk about this in the book, is that I try to imagine not just me and my stuff and them and their stuff, but there's also a third entity which is the dynamic between us or the problem that we're trying to solve. And I sometimes find it more helpful to focus on that because yes, you probably have a laundry list of things that other person can do better. Be less passive aggressive, be more direct with you. Um, be more optimistic, you know, whatever it is, smile more, whatever you think it is that they need to do. And it. And there's probably a list of things, you know, you need to improve on if you're self aware enough. But those are. That's not going to happen in the course of one conversation. So what can often shift in the course of one conversation or a series of conversations is the dynamic between you. So if you've been really stuck and maybe you're in like that person's overly pessimistic and you're digging into the optimism, you know, can you just change a little bit on your side that will loosen the dynamic, that tug of war that you're in. You know, perhaps you grant them their premise that like, yeah, there actually are real risks here that need to be addressed and that might just loosen things between you. Now is that going to change the lifelong pessimistic colleague into being, you know, sunshine and rainbows all the time? Absolutely not. But, but it might shift the dynamic enough that you can have a better conversation and you can start to see their behavior and your behavior in a different light.

Speaker B: I really like what you said there. It's focusing on the problem versus the person. And also it's about not squeezing it into a kind of a single conversation. Could you magically want to fix it in just like a time limited piece? So we have to, I suppose, give us that grace of space. If you want to call it that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And there's something else then. It's a little about being that accommodating is giving them that little bit of space then to give a wiggle room to go. All this. And I'm, I'm yielding here a little bit to accommodate you. But you're not fully yielding as well, isn't it? There's something about that and uh, giving you time to understand your perspective or where you're coming from or what's the problem from your perspective? Is that it?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And I like the. You're. It's yielding is. I worry about that. I'm not sure the right word, but I worry about yielding or accommodating because what I often hear from people is like, why am I giving, you know, into this? Or why am I being generous? Or why am I um, granting them their premise when they're the one who's causing all the problem. And one. I probably don't. I don't think they're the one who's causing all the problem, but I understand that perspective. And I think one of the sort of shifts I have to often make is that any sort of generosity, even if it's a tiny. I see your point. Or, you know what? I've been wrong here. I wish I approached this conversation differently. So apologies or yielding or accommodating. I don't see that as giving something to the other person. I either see it as giving to the dynamic so the dynamic can loosen a little, or I honestly see it as just strategic. Right. It's. You know, my daughter, I remember when she was in elementary school, she was about eight years old, she had this ongoing conflict with this girl at school to the point where every night at dinner when she came home, we were like, okay, give us the Natalie report. Because it was always, something had happened with Natalie. And then one day she was like, there's no report. Uh, we were like, why? And she said, because when we got to recess, we got outside, I told her I liked her shirt, and then we played, and it was fine. And I was like, okay, do I feel proud of my kid for figuring out sometimes a little flattery goes a long way? Or am I worried that she just manipulated Natalie? And I was like, you know what? They had a good time playing, so who cares, right? And I. And I did ask, did you genuinely like her shirt? And she said, yeah. And I was like, okay, it was a genuine compliment. It was a little bit yielding. It was a little bit accommodating. But. But it got her out of this, like, tug of war she and Natalie had been having for weeks. And so it was like, that's the kind of thing I think, like, if you can really give, uh, whether it's a compliment, like, you know, acknowledge their perspective, repeat back what you heard as if it's valid. Any sort of small generosity, I think, can often just, like I said, loosen things up or just change the dynamic and actually give that person permission, model for them what it looks like to give a little. Because sometimes that's all it takes is just each person to give a little for you to start reconnecting instead of pulling on the dynamic.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, that's something, you know, that my wife is really good at reminding me of. Of the olive branch. Remember the importance of the olive branch. And that reminds me then of. Of an episode of the podcast I did with Karen Bridward, and she talked about that relationship driven leaders, those bids for connection, and it's to be mindful to look out for those. It might be that I'm attempting to sit down beside you for coffee, even though it might have fallen out. Is that fact that I'm, I'm, um, putting myself in your proximity means I'm making that bid for some sort of connection? I think. I think what you're saying is really powerful, isn't it? It's. It's like. It's. What your daughter did was like it's from a genuine place to go. I. I actually really like your. Your shirt. We probably have more in common than you think, then.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Natalie. Drama disappears.

Speaker C: That's right. Well, and I like the. I like the phrasing that your guest used of bids for. Is it bids for relationship?

Speaker B: Uh, a bid for connection.

Speaker C: Bid for connection. That's right. And I think sometimes that's. You have to remember, you know, most of us don't show up to work feeling 100% secure, 100% likable. You know, we show up with the same concerns and worries and anxieties that we show up in every type of relationship we have. And I think sometimes we expect people just to put away their egos and be okay at work. And yet oftentimes what we need is just sort of that little bit of bid of welcoming olive branch, as your wife calls it, to just sort of soothe our ego, soothe that insecurity and say, okay, Right. Yes, this is about connection. There's so much about the modern workplace. I mean, bringing in AI Certainly that is dehumanizing. And I think anything we can do. I really see my work and my mission as reminding people of their humanity and reminding them to see the humanity in others. Because it. There's just the systems, the, you know, the technology. Ah, the expectations. Often the unrealistic expectations in most workplaces really are dehumanizing. And I think we all need to reconnect with that more.

Speaker B: Speaking, um, about that, then we m. Say, for example, I am making, in my view, every effort. And the other person, even if I do to the olive branch or yield, is like, and I know I'm right, you know, and. And I told you so. And this is like, you know, the know it all. Maybe we go into the archetype then. How do you deal with people like that, that they're not for changing? You know, I'm thinking when I think of that, I think of. But, uh, when I was growing up, Margaret Thatcher was the Prime Minister, um, in the uk and it was like, this lady's not returning. But it was that really assertive, a really assertive piece there, you know, and that really stands out for me, you know, is I, uh. No, I'm not changing my mindset here. How do you deal with someone like that then?

Speaker C: I get asked this a lot, and I think it's because people do have this experience of really trying to extending the olive branch, doing the work, cleaning up their side of the street. And then the other person is just completely unyielding, right? Still stubborn, still being passive aggressive, maybe lying, maybe stealing credit, whatever archetype they fit into, right? And they keep up that behavior. And I think it's incredibly frustrating to be like, wait, I'm doing everything right. Like, I followed all the advice I like, you know, I read the book, I did the right things. And one of it, I think one thing, and this will be very unsatisfying, so I'll give a more satisfying answer. But I do think one important thing is to remember your goal is not to change the other person. The goal is to get whatever it is you need. And maybe what. Whatever it is you need is information to do your job. Maybe it's for them to do their part. Maybe it's to come to an agreement on what the deadline is or the budget is focus on that goal. Rather, if your goal is to change the other person, you're sort of setting yourself up for failure because that's A, not your job and B, going to be really hard to do. Uh, and then I think the second piece of it is, and this maybe is also satisfying, but I, uh, mean, because we all want to be able to, like, do the three behaviors that, like, magically change the dynamic. And the person is like, oh, my God, my best friend at work now. But I think the other thing to remind yourself is it's actually a privilege to be able to do the work of cleaning up your side of the street to extend the olive branch. And if it doesn't work in this specific scenario, you are still doing the work of building your own emotional intelligence. And next time there's a Natalie or there's, uh, you know, the challenging person, you will be equipped to do this again. And I think what you. It's really important to remind yourself, just because you didn't get the outcome you wanted doesn't mean that you didn't learn from it. And didn't mean. Doesn't mean you didn't grow from it. And that's the thing, I think sometimes I have a, A, uh, conflict with someone where it really just doesn't get resolved. And I was like, is this going to just be forever? And I'm like, okay, wait, I have to sit down and really think through, what did I learn from this? What do I gain from it? What can I tell my daughter about it or share in an article I write? Like, I'm, um. There's clearly something to get from this situation. Even, even if it's not that the person is, you know, better behaved or more collaborative or a better colleague.

Speaker A: If this conversation has you thinking about getting better at conflict in your team, now is a good time to act on it. Resolution Intelligence helps leaders bend the arc of conflict toward healthy resolution, navigating challenges with confidence and saving time, money and relationships. Visit resolution-intelligence.com to get your personal Resolution Intelligence report and take the first, uh, step.

Speaker B: So just on that. Okay. In the, in the workplace, when it comes to workplace, many people will avoid it. And this is something I distinctly remember from the podcast we did before. Um, and by the work, by the way, your book is called Getting along how to Work with Anyone, Even Difficult people. I forgot to mention that at the top of the show there's, and, uh, what you said was it's about avoiding workplace conflict is stealing an opportunity to improve the future. I love that. That was so powerful. I think for a lot of people who gave me feedback on the podcast. Except that really stood out.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's. I think our natural instinct too is of. To avoid conflict. It makes sense, right? We don't want to engage in something that's uncomfortable or potentially damaging to our relationship. But I really believe every conflict is an opportunity, if not to improve the relationship, which ideally it is, then to improve yourself and, and to learn something from it. And you know, I, I, uh, have a LinkedIn course on managing team conflict. And that's one of the, the very important steps in that process of helping people, especially a team you manage deal with conflict is reflecting. I think too often we're so relieved the conflict's over. The decision's been whatever, you know, or people have gone back to their corners, whatever it is, that we don't bring people together and say, okay, what did we learn? But that's really the core of developing emotional intelligence and building psychological safety when you do it as a team. To be able to say, gosh, that would have gone much more quickly if we hadn't exchanged 75 passive aggressive emails and just actually sat down. Right. Or, you know, I think we were all really stuck in our unit's agenda and we didn't think about the enterprise level. Like, whatever, whatever you learned from the situation. And it has to be like, I learned your, it can't be. I learned you don't play m nicely or you, you know, you're overly pessimistic or, uh, you're a micromanager. Right. It has to be something you personally learned. And I think that for the team sort of models that learning from this situation and showing up ideally better in the next one.

Speaker B: Now here's something I remember reading online about you and it was about you support debate in teams and you support dissent. Now that seems the very opposite, if I'm honest, Amy, to getting along people kind of going, how does the two marry? Yet it's the way we do it, isn't it?

Speaker C: Yeah, it is. It's the way we do it is. And well, there I have two thoughts on this. So one, it is the way we, how we handle the debate in the dissent. Um, it's also the debate and the dissent is there, the tensions are there, the disagreements, the trade offs, the different points of view, they're there. And you can try to pretend they're not and avoid them and bury them, but you're going to miss those opportunities. So it's about elevating that debate and dissent and actually accepting this is part of the work we do together. This is actually the focus of my next book, which is in its very early stages but is really an, it's uh, extension of getting along in some way. But it's really focused on the team leader or the enterprise leader or the executive, who knows they have to help a team, quote unquote, get along. But they don't want to do it by making, by just sort of toxic positivity, by pretending everything's okay. It's about helping teams have that dissent and debate so that they can push projects forward, so they can learn, so that they can innovate, they can unlock all of the potential that comes from what Linda Hill, professor at Harvard Business School, calls creative abrasion. That sense of like, we can disagree, butt heads, put out different ideas, build on one another's that and that creates innovation, breakthroughs, creativity. And Linda has studied some of the most innovative organizations in the world and that's what she sees is they're not afraid of dissent and debate. And you know, I've also observed organizations where they value, uh, dissent in debate. And I'm putting that value in air quotes because they then just they use it as sort of an excuse to say whatever they want. And they're not doing it to your point, with kindness, with compassion, with a sort of enterprise perspective or focus. They're doing it really ego driven. Right. I have such a smart thing to say. And it's, you know, I'm just gonna take down your perspective, berate you in front of others, but all in the sort of, you know, guise of debate or dissent, when really it's just, it's not collaborative. Right. And that's, I think, dissent and debate with the goal of collaboration. The goal of a shared objective that we're trying to reach is what you want on teams. And that's really that the focus of this next book is like, how do leaders actually do that? What's the work they need to do as leaders? What's the groundwork they need to lay for the teams? And how do they actually carry that out? And when they hit road bumps, what do, what do they do? Because encouraging your team to have dissent and debate is not going to go perfectly. Right. There are going to be people who can't engage, don't have the skills, ah, you know, they're going to be tensions that erupt and then become unhealthy conflicts. How are you going to deal with those? You know, all of that.

Speaker B: So Linda Hill is coming onto the podcast, you'll be delighted to know, uh, for our listeners. I am very excited about that. Um, but there's something that you said there about that collaborative approach there. And this is the work and this is my personal view and you might share the same view about what you see. So this is anecdotally, uh, for me, if I'm in coaching sessions or if I'm in team sessions, is our diaries are full and it takes time to debate, it takes time to resolve things, to collaborate. And now you're moving away from the task into a talk shop that people will say that. And it's just a bloody talk shop. And what I like about what you're saying is, well, actually it's more nuanced than that. We're having a, ah, very much a learning conversation. We're learning about the team dynamic, we're learning about collaborative. How do we actually align in a productive sense. And anytime you see like here, the skills, the future, we talk about creativity, we talk about innovation, critical thinking and conflict resolution is always up there. We are not valuing this enough in organizations. You know, it's, this is the work of the team, isn't it? So let's, let's set a times aside for this is part of the work.

Speaker C: Yeah. And there's two. So two people whose work I'll mention here because I think it's really relevant. One is an, uh, author named Leanne Davy, and she has this concept called conflict debt. So it may feel like you do not have time to resolve the conflict and you can just move on, but you're going to be in debt with that conflict because the more you smooth it over, just move on, ignore it, stuff it.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Um, you're. The more it's going to build. I m mean, we know this from our interpersonal relationships, from any sort of marriage. Right. The, the. If you don't address the conflict of the moment, there's going to be a bigger fight later on. And so in some ways it's about saving time. I think we often think, oh, I don't have the time, I don't have the time to do this. And as leaders, it's like, we got to move on to the next thing. I get that the time pressure is real, and yet I think you're also not saving yourself time by skipping these sort of upfront steps of dealing with the conflict directly, having the debate and then learning from it. You're actually saving yourself time in the long run by, by building that skill, especially as a team, by building that muscle as a, as a team. The other person's work is Megan Wrights. I don't know if you've had Megan on the, um, no. So she wrote a couple books, um, one called Speak up. And she's actually doing some new research now on a, uh, concept called Spaciousness and how. And how do we find the space to even show up as our best selves? Because I think I actually did a talk for a senior level audience from a tech company a while back. And I remember the woman whose sponsor she was, the one who had brought me in, sat in the back of the room and she sort of had her arms crossed the whole time as I'm talking about conflict and the skills you need to resolve conflict and the frameworks. And I just was like, oh, she's very unhappy with this. And at the end she came right up to me and she said, that was great. I was like, okay. And she said, and I knew all of it already. And I was like, oh, no. Like she thought it was too basic. And she goes, but I don't do any of it. Can you help me figure out why? And I thought, oh, that is such an interesting. And I think because of that time Pressure because of just feeling like we have to move at the speed of light, that it's, we're not encouraging leaders, especially executives, to take time to reflect and pause. And so I think a lot of times people know what they're supposed to do. They know they're supposed to extend the olive branch, to see it as a collaboration, um, you know, all of those good behaviors to not, you know, bring their biases to, to the dynamic, to experiment with different tactics, like they know what they're supposed to do, but because of that pressure and the lack of spaciousness, as Megan would call it, they're not doing it. And so that's one of the questions I always ask people if, especially when I'm working with a senior audience, like if these frameworks sound familiar or you think, oh, I've I learned this in my, uh, crucial conversations workshop. Or like, ask yourself, are you doing these things consistently? And if you're not, why is that? Right? What is holding you back? And so both that concept of conflict, debt, the sooner you address it, the easier it will be. Um, and this idea that, like, what's holding you back from doing what you know would be the best approach in this situation, I think those can really help with that. That pushback you often get from people of like, I just don't have time for this.

Speaker B: I just don't have time for this. Reminds me of the chat I had yesterday with Nelson, repenting from mit. Right. He has a book, There's Got to be a Better Way, and he was talking about the analogy of a car. So if you're not looking at the oil light, ah. And you're not servicing care, you're not doing that maintenance. There it is. It is going to set you back in terms of time a lot, you know, and, and especially if things are where you are right now with snowing and we don't have single lane traffic and all that type of stuff, your car isn't working and you haven't done that. No, it's a massive problem. And I think what you're talking about with AI in the workplace, with everything that's going on there, there's so much that if we don't slow down a little bit and just do the temperature check of the team or that maintenance check there to say, listen, everything okay? Or I'm noticing this is dialing up on the gauge. It's heating up here. There's, we need to do something here, isn't there? There's something about having that awareness and it mightn't Be. There's something about personal leadership here for me. If your leader's not doing it, are we speaking up and creating that space then to say, listen, um, I'm, I'm observing this.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. You know, I coached a leader during, during the pandemic who was really stepping up for his team and really leaning into a side of his leadership he hadn't leaned into before, which was to just be much more empathetic, check in with people's feelings like they were doing on their zoom calls. They were just doing like a five minute check in. At the beginning. A lot of articles were advising to do this and he was following that advice and it was about like six months in, maybe a year into lockdown. And he, he said, uh, to me, can I stop now? Can I stop? Like, do we still need that? And it was such a funny. I was like, yeah, I guess you could. But why, like, isn't. Aren't you still finding it helpful? And it was, it was that time pressure was coming back of like, do I have to spend 5 minutes? 5 minutes feels really costly to my team. And, and you, uh, know, and I really encourage. I was like, I wouldn't stop because I think one, it's going to look like you just did it because some article told you to do it during the pandemic. And two, I think it's actually helping the team function better. And so why? Just because that would save you five minutes of time. Who knows how many more minutes that's going to add if the team's not connected, is not focused on that collaboration doesn't feel like they can be honest with one another and vulnerable and, and do all the things that we know lead to good outcomes. So, uh, you know. Exactly. The car metaphor is a great metaphor. It's like you gotta really check in with the team. You really gotta make sure the team is, you know, in a place that is as connected, relational and collaborative as possible.

Speaker B: Yeah. And uh, we often say, like it says, time, money and relationships. You know, if you lose a relationship, that's a massive loss to the team and to the business and knowledge and you know, trust and safety has to be built again with someone new and change the whole team dynamic. Like the amount of work you're adding to yourself without even realizing it. It's huge, Huge.

Speaker C: And I think that's one of the things that I feel so strongly about, is that leadership, especially when we think about relationships, is that that bid for connection. We often encourage leaders to do that with their direct reports, but they don't think enough about how everyone on the team is connecting to each other because they sort of see that as their, you know, we're adults, we can, we can handle that. Um, you know, they don't need me to intervene. I don't want to be a micromanager when it comes to their relationships. But how they relate to one another will dictate how the work gets done. And we know high quality relationships. That doesn't mean they're best friends, but, you know, trusting relationships, relationships marked by psychological safety that are resilient, can bounce back from disagreements or setbacks. Those relationships lead to people doing better work. So it's worth it to invest in that, those dynamics. And really I think for uh, a leader to get involved with how people to take it on as your responsibility for how people interact, relate to one another and collaborate.

Speaker B: So just on that, you're writing a book right now. Okay. And your last book has been so helpful because you have the different, the nine principles and how to deal with anybody, you know, and how to get along with people. You have the different archetypes. You've just the phrases and tactics, you know, whereas the victims. Mansplaining. We'll go back into that. But under this book then, like, what's your insight? Where you got to go and you know, I felt this really needs to be talked about or this really, we need to have uh, an insight or perspective on this.

Speaker A: If this conversation has you thinking about getting better at conflict in your team, now is a good time to act on it. Resolution Intelligence helps leaders bend the arc of conflict toward healthy resolution, navigating challenges with confidence and saving time, money and relationships. Visit resolution-intelligence.com to get your personal Resolution Intelligence report and take the first step.

Speaker C: Yeah, you know, it's the, it's the uh, conversations. I wish there was like a light bulb moment and maybe I'll remember one. But, uh, it's more that when getting along came out, it was, it's really focused on the individual. Like how do I as an individual? And you can be an executive, you can be entry level. How do I interact with others? And what I was hearing from leaders was, this is great, I can do this, but I'm still dealing with a lot on my team. Gossip, the meeting before the meeting, the meeting after the meeting, the back channel conversations. I have two team members who can't get along. I have one team member who is just, you know, really taking the, the morale down on the team or causing all of these conflicts. And how as a leader should I be thinking about this. So it really came from those. In some ways I think of it as sort of a love letter to middle managers too because I think middle managers are really stuck. But in as been well documented, well researched and well written about, they're really stuck between this pressure from the top and now pressure from the front line of like, well here's what we need. And they're forced to sort of take strategy, translate it, uh, motivate people. And on top of that, now that's the traditional work of a manager. On top of that now we've now added this. You have to care about the team, like you have to be tending to their emotions, you have to respond to um, their concerns and what's going on in their lives. And it's just I feel like we've given managers this plate full of tasks that are impossible to get done in the amount of time we give them. And so in some ways I'm really trying to help them. How do, how do you deal with that, that collaborative, emotional, human part of managing a team in a more effective way that will alleviate some of that pressure you're feeling from both sides.

Speaker B: Just on that then there's so much of a squeeze on middle managers and I the exact same thing from our side here in Ireland and in Europe. So when I'm working with teams then it's like there's so much pressure to deliver on a product or service or a target or KPI, whatever it may be. And uh, with that then it's like, well, where's the time for learning? Where's the time to facilitate? Can you do it in a two hour workshop for me? And then it's a one off workshop at that. Like when, when I, when I see it from that side of where I really try to help people but then they kind of go on, you know what, listen, work your magic in two hours. I see you smiling here, right? But you're like two hours. William, really? Were you asked to do that? You know, like there is that piece of the observer, facilitator role to go, listen, I'm, I'm going to help you navigate along this journey. But like I personally believe that a workplace should have internal facilitators and there's no need for the likes of Amy or William to commit your organization. I think this should be a dedicated role. Um, and I think that's the workplace of the future, if I'm honest. But like, what's your thoughts on this? To say, listen, this is like a two hour session and Then just give us a download.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I'm smiling because I just thought actually someone say, we need you to come in for a full day and then come back and say, yeah, our executives really can only do a half day. And then yesterday I got a note was like, we're thinking 90 minutes. And I'm like, okay, we really scaled that back, didn't we? Um, you know, and I actually was asked on a call this week of like, well, what kind of behavior change do you see after a 90 minute session? And I think it's a great question because at uh, one, um, no matter how long the session, even if it's a 45 minute keynote, I am trying to think about how do we get these ideas into people's brains, into their behavior, into so that they can, even if, even if it's not going to be the sort of ongoing support that they're, that they're able to bring some of this into the organization. To go back to the very beginning of this conversation where we talk about this sort of dynamic of someone, um, sort of giving, extending an olive branch or yielding a little bit or accommodate, I often think, and what I see is that even if one person on the team starts to change the way they approach conflict or the way they approach the way they communicate, or you know, maybe they even say something simple as, wow, this is, you know, in the middle of a disagreement, like, wow, this is a tough conversation. I'm really glad we're having it. Right. Like something as simple as that can sometimes start to model m the right behavior and change the way. Now do I think that's going to drastically change the entire organization? No, but I think with the. I always try to work with the folks who are, whether it's HR learning development, whether it's the senior level executives I always try to work with, like, okay, how are you going to take this and what are you going to do with this 90 minutes? Um, and what you've learned and how are you going to really cascade it through the organization and this change? You know, I really told the person of like when. What kind of behavior change do you see? I said, I wish I could tell you. Everyone walks out and is like, oh, I'm going to have these difficult conversations. And like you just see this massive turnaround immediately. But I don't think that's how people change. That's not. The behavior change takes a long time. And I think we really, we just have to uh, the I tell my senior leader clients, like, you should be talking about Dissent, debate, disagreement, conflict, open communication to the point where people roll their eyes because they're natur instinct is not going to be to do any of it. So you have to make it so explicit that not only that this is allowed, but this is welcomed and valued and that I think is the real. That is often what unlocks it is really just driving the point home. Giving people the skills, giving them the skills and the language and then having the senior leaders model it as well.

Speaker B: And um, I think I need to clarify for you. It's not driving the point where people are so sick of hearing that open communication that people will say will you just shut up. I've heard you. I get it. It's more about say listen, here are examples where we're actually doing it and here's how he's showing up in a positive way. Uh, there. Sorry I had to make that joke to me.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Uh, because I can hear some cynical voices listening into this podcast there. So if we were to focus in the rest of the podcast on this right was there are some behavioral changes that I want to make in my organization. So when I show up to my team and if I was to say this and I want to go straight into dissent and support, you're probably going to have to frame it and introduce people to the notion of that and say listen, here's another way of working. So if we were to say listen, we want to change behaviors in our teams here and I feel like we sometimes don't always talk about what's really on our mind. And what I'd like to do is to have that constructive approach is in your mind. The best way is let's co create that or do we follow a framework or uh, what's what what are your thoughts?

Speaker C: The, the work I do with especially with senior leadership teams is really to co create it because it's uh. One, I just think there's a lot more buy in when, when that happens, you know. Two, there's a zillion frameworks out there and I have frameworks that I'm happy to introduce to and I.

Speaker B: You.

Speaker C: You. I know you do too. Right. And I, and sometimes they're very useful but I also think and I will always introduce those frameworks but it's not. I don't then say this is how you have to do it. What I prefer is that the team then co create norms. What are the norms? How are we um, going to interact with one another? How are we going to handle conflicts? What do we want to do when there's a disagreement where we reach an impasse, um, and then come up with those norms. And sometimes it's even a process like what's the process for handling a disagreement and whether um, I'm sort of agnostic on what those norms are, what the process is. To me that matters less than we agree and we actually, the way we interact is a topic of conversation. And then the best teams. I have a team I've worked with for several years now. I only check in with them about once or twice a year now but we did some intensive work to establish those norms together and now that like they ever the beginning of every time they get together it's someone's job, it's a rotating responsibility to go over the norms which are in a shared Google Doc. Right. Go over the norms and give an example of how did the team live up to a norm. What was an example of a good use case and then what's an example of a time that, and this is always harder but what's an example of a time where we didn't live up to this norm where we could have done better? And that's oftentimes that's 10, 8 to 10 minutes at the beginning of their, you know, 90 minute two hour meeting. And it just sets the tone and it's a uh, reminder we are here not to agree, not to just sit back and rubber stamp everyone's ideas, but to actually engage and to collaborate and to have disagreements, to navigate the tensions, to navigate the trade offs. So it just helps keep it top of mind. And those norms with this team and most of the teams I work with evolve over time because they realize, oh usually they'll come up a roadblock and be like well none of the norms work here so what new norm do we need? Or this norm is actually uh, we thought it would be really helpful but it's encouraging us to engage in the wrong behaviors that's actually counterproductive.

Speaker B: That's something that's I think is misunderstood. But high performance teams is that healthy conflict is actually welcomed. It means I really trust that we're not actually going to follow. Personally we are focused on just a different way of getting a task done or a process done. And I think that's the thing that's often misunderstood, isn't it?

Speaker C: Yes. I think especially as a leader they think if their team is having conflict, if two people on their team can't get along, they think it's a failure instead of inevitable. Right. It's inevitable part of interacting with other humans and you know, the people who I have the most intense fights with, the people I love, like the people I care a lot about because I trust them and I'm willing to say exactly what I feel, I'm willing to ask for what I need. So I don't think of conflict as a failure in a relationship, but actually usually it's a sign of conflict, trust. Now, uh, you know, it. Healthy conflict is much more a sign of trust than unhealthy conflict. But I think there's this big. Especially with the way that conflict is portrayed in politics and media, like reality tv, right. We see it as damaging to relationships, but the research shows quite the opposite. Especially if you take that time for reflection that we talked about, it can actually build trust in relationships. It can. You know, look at the work of Dr. Amy Aminzman around psychological safety. Like having a disagreement, giving feedback, really being clear about what you've. Where you've made mistakes, where the team has made mistakes builds that psychological safety doesn't necessarily damage it.

Speaker B: And I'm glad you mentioned the very lovely Amy Edmondson, uh, as well. And we both spent time with her. I think there's 50. But, but just, uh, going back to the team environment, then this is where I think when conflict is not handled well in a team, it's nearly. That's a source of drama, which is a source of gossip, right? And then gossip goes around going, wait. And I tell you, and it's more about then information as power goes, I've got a story to share with you. And then there's a bit of social value to that. No, I did an episode on, on this with dealing with gossip in the workplace with, um, Deborah Grayson Regal and I think she. Brilliant, brilliant lady as well. And this is where I think what happens is the drama will filter out if it's done well. And then we've psychological safety and then with confidentiality is coming in. So these are the norms. They're really what you're seeing here. It's about how do we create those norms that it's a habit. This is something we make time for and, uh, we prioritize. And I think when I go into some teams, then if we don't have a review, we go, well, we left it for the last five minutes of the conversation and then other stuff took place and then it got pushed out and they got pushed out and then it's no longer a habit. So it has to be something that we prioritize. At the start, it's a bit like, remember we had a conversation I said, no, let's do that. No. Rather than after the podcast.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: It's just like I wanted to prioritize that because that's what I valued more.

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker B: Do you know what I mean? So there's something around that of it's the way you prioritize it in teams then to say, actually this is how we're going to model it because if we get this right, the other stuff will fall into place.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I was just having this conversation with a client who I'm going to do, uh, some work with and they said, where should we put you in our day? Should we take care of the business stuff first? And I said, well, what we're going to talk about is how you talk about the business stuff. So really, ideally I'm at the beginning of the day because this is how you have that conversation and it sort of feels like putting the cart before the horse to be able to have the conversation and then learn later. Oh, wow. We actually should have done it that way. And even that, um, executive team I was talking about, that does that 8 to 10 minute check in at the beginning of their meetings. It's again, it's just revisiting how do we interact and it's a great, like you said, it's sort of building the habit. It's reminding us to go back to what we were talking about before of it's reminding us of our best selves. We know how to do this. We, we've agreed how we're going to interact. Um, I'm going to show up with a generous, compassionate mindset. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to be clear and direct. Right. All of those things that we've agreed to, it's just a reminder to do it so we don't default to the like, let's get through the, you know, the meeting as, as quickly possible.

Speaker B: Amy, we are now coming to the end of our podcast. It had been such a pleasure to chat to you again. If people are interested in finding more about you, what you do and your wonderful book, how am I to do so?

Speaker C: Yeah, the best place to go is my website, which is amyegallo.com and. Or follow me on LinkedIn. I post on LinkedIn quite a, quite a bit and I've been posting a little bit about this new thinking for the, for the new book. So that's a good place. You can also sign up for my newsletter, which is available on my site and that's where I share some of my newest thinking and what I'm up to. I will say there's one other thing I'm really excited about that a, um, resource that I've just started offering in the last year, which are reading lists on certain topics. I actually have a reading list on gossip, a reading list on difficult conversations. It takes resources, articles I've written, but also articles and podcasts from other folks. And I try to curate the best content that I have access to at this moment on those particular topics. Just because there's so much out there. I'm trying to help people sort to find exactly what they need.

Speaker B: Amy, thank you for helping our listeners today on the Workplace podcast.

Speaker C: Thank you, William. This was such a great conversation. I always enjoy chatting with you.

Speaker A: Thanks so much for listening to the Workplace podcast in association with Dynamic Partners. We really appreciate you being part of the conversation. Want to start the conversation about leadership in your organization? At Dynamic Partners, we help leaders and, um, teams build a culture, uh, of performance that drives real results. Visit dynamicpartners, ie to find out more about our workshops and coaching services, or email infoynamicpartners, ie to start the conversation. We're ambitious for your leadership. Are you.