Care For Performance Leadership with Noam Buchalter

Speaker A: What one thing do you wish you'd have known 10 years ago?

Speaker B: Well, um, we're coming up to the 10 year anniversary of when I got promoted to marketing director. And the thing it's made me think about is, is the leaders that I had and actually the leader that, that took the risk on me. And so it just really made me remember how important kind of leaders who, not just, you know, telling you what to do or whatever, or giving you directions or challenges, but actually leaders who really advocate for you, uh, and that really care for you. And I think that's the big lesson I've learned and I've tried my best to apply it, you know, when I've been leading that when you really advocate for your team, when you really care for them and they get it and, and you know, you see them and they really feel that. I know I've performed at my best under those sorts of leaders and I've been very lucky to have quite a number of those. And I'm still very much in touch

Speaker A: with all of them.

Speaker B: Um, and that's what I've tried to do, uh, with my teams as well. And you know, when you feel cared for, you know, you care more for other people around you, you care more for the work that you're doing and so inevitably you perform better.

Speaker A: I always think with that type of lesson as well, when you are on the receiving end of that, it feels like the most obvious, easy thing to do in the world because you see the success of how people grow and develop around, in yourself and around you in the team when you have that supportive leader. I think what I realized as I was coming through my career is just how difficult that can be sometimes when you're in that role, trying to provide that space not because you don't want to, but because of the other pressures coming your way on the business and almost having to act like a shield sometimes to direct some of that around or take it on yourself. And you don't realize just how difficult or how amazing the job that person who you loved was doing until you've stepped up into their shoes and you're like, oh, geez, that was incredible what they did because of all these things I didn't see.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I also think what you said there, which is because you genuinely want to, and I think that's so important. I think it's got to be really genuine and authentic to the person. They're that sort of person. And I think hopefully you and I have both been lucky enough to work with those Sorts of people. It's very hard to fake, you know, that. And um, you know, when the chips are down, it's that person's kind of core motivation to care and to advocate for their team and to put their team first really. Um, that not everyone has and it's. And yeah, I think people kind of read through it when it's just slogans or whatever. So I've been really lucky to work with people who genuinely care and I do genuinely care for, for my team members and, and I hope that most of the time that comes across and, and I've been the beneficiary of that because when you care for your team, they start caring for you as well. And that's an amazing feeling as a leader because it can be quite lonely

Speaker A: as, as you know, I always speak really highly of my, my very first marketing job which was at Durham County Cricket Club. Very different world, but Durham was a, a club with very little money in those days. There was a couple of financial problems floating around but, but the ethos of the club on the field was to develop their own from within. And if you're a cricket fan or if there are any cricket fans listening, you'll know the names of the beneficiaries of that who've gone on to play for England. People like Steve Harmerson, Paul Collingwood, Simon Brown, Graham Onions, Liam Plunkett, Phil Mustard. Did, um, loads of players have sort of come through that Durham conveyor belt. This isn't going to be a cricket podcast. The reason I tell you this though is that it, it wasn't just an ethos for the playing department. That ethos ran through the whole company. So I'd been there a year as a marketing exec, assistant, whatever the title was, and the manager left and they promoted me to the manager's job. Now of course at, uh, 23 I4, 24, I thought I was ready for that job. Of course I was the obvious choice. Looking back now, it was a huge decision. You know, you don't see that when you're a 24, 5 year old idiot. You're just like, yeah, of course, why wouldn't they give me the job? Looking back now, they took a chance and I was supported and I was developed and the people around me at that time, I'm still in touch with now, 20 some years later, which I can't say for every job I've been in. And that really has an impact on me, that supportive, trusting environment. Uh, so when you've been a beneficiary of that as well, what are the couple of, maybe a couple of actions that you take to try and foster that community within the people you work with?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's not about big gestures actually. It's about lots of little things. And so I think having weekly one to ones with team members, a decent chunk of time with each of them. Um, and they can be kind of coaching conversations that can be very free flowing. Obviously you'd want to prepare a bit of an agenda and everything but you just make yourself available like that. Then sometimes there's obviously small groups, you kind of gather people together, together. And it's a lot to do with listening and it's a lot to do with those incidental conversations that are just kind of the human relationship things. And it's ultimately what happens I think is you create a sort of safe environment. People talk about psychological safety. You know, you, you know, don't hold yourself in too much. You know, you kind of share as much information as you can about the business, about yourself and so on. I think just building that safe environment is those little micro actions and, and I think that's why it's so hard to fake. I think that's why it's got to come from a genuine place in the person's heart and a genuine intent because you often don't even realize you're doing it. That's why in a way I'm struggling to give you like specific actions because it just something that some people just do naturally.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, that's a really important thing as well because a lot of the time people get promoted to, because they're good at a very specific skill. Um, you know, they, they're the best salesperson. So they become the sales manager. They're, you know, they're the, the best performance marketer. So they start to manage the team. But often what makes you good at those things actually can make you a real terrible people manager, can't they? Because your hyper focus on solving that problem doesn't allow you to have that focus on the people in your team.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I think the, you know, what I've realized is that, you know, the ones who've cared for me have driven my performance to greater heights. And the work that I'm proudest of is often with those people. Um, and I've seen it in my team and the feedback I've got from teams I've led. Um, you know, we'll talk a bit later maybe about some crises we faced into. Um, you know, really high pressure situations where that foundation of psychological Safety, that care, you know, has driven their performance. Performance has given them the autonomy and the confidence just to go off and solve problems on their own. So, um, I guess the summary, the kind of the. The slogan of that would be kind of. It's care for performance leadership. Um, but there's a lot behind it.

Speaker A: I m like that. Yeah, I like that, Kev. Performance leadership. Great. Look, we'll pause there. Norm, you've dangled a carrot for what's coming after this introduction. Um, but we're going to talk. Oh, oh, there's some great subjects coming, I think. We've got, um, meat products, we've got cris.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, we've got lots to talk about. So we'll be right back after this introduction. Hey up, and welcome to the strategy sessions. My name is Andy Jarvis. I am the host of the show and the chief strategy officer at Eximo Marketing. A quick pause before we get back to Norm, and a really genuinely insightful, thoughtful episode with absolutely loads of great advice to take about positioning, about leadership, about simplifying, about working your way through a crisis. There's just a stunning amount of information in this episode. Um, looking at the social clips we've created for this, where you're trying to pick the best bits. There's loads of them, absolutely loads of them, which is great, because I need plenty of social content to keep me going through the summer. Why is that? Because this is the last episode of season six. Take the summer off. Because, let's be honest, nobody wants to listen to a marketing strategy podcast sat around a swimming pool, do they? No, you do not. I mean, if you do, we've got a back catalog of 100 and whatever many episodes now, maybe 110. You can fill hours, right? You can fill days listening to me by the pool if you really want to, but, you know, take some time off. It's fine. Uh, so before we get on with the episode and back to Norm, I just want to say thank you to all the guests who've been on this season. Uh, we started way back in September with a Black History Month episode, which actually cast me back to being in Cannes, which is happening right now when I'm recording this. So I'm not happy. Broken. I'm not there. Uh, Cynthia Harris was the first guest who I met in Cannes and joined me. Um, the quote I used for the thumbnail says, you have to believe that bigger is possible. That's where the magic happens. I mean, we might not have even been talking about marketing. Who cares? What a great quote. And What a way to start from there. We roll through a Black History Month miniseries. We, uh, talked about Satanism with Tim Donald, Joe, uh, Rampley, who actually bumped into Weirdly in London the other day. Hello, Joe. Uh, about bikes in London and then Christmas campaigns, marketing Academy foundation, uh, Will Poskett talking about strategy being valuable. A really in depth, important episode with David Tippman as well, who talks a lot about mental health, but also about Dollar Shave Club too. So, um, but the mental health discussion was really, really important and a really great way to kick off that episode. Uh, if you only have 10 minutes, just listen to the first 10 minutes. It is life changing. Alison Bender also talked about some important stuff. Being a woman in football, about the problems of social media and including plot twists. She's had deep fake porn made about her and shared on Twitter. Who said this isn't a problem. It is, uh, through to where we've been in the last couple of weeks with Sian, um, uh, Colleen and also JP Castling as well. What a series, What a learning period it's been. I've had a great time putting this part this season of the podcast together. If you've been listening, if you're new, thank you for coming. If you're one of the ones who've been with me since the beginning or all the way through the whole season, thank you for you as well. I take the summer off, not off work, just off podcasting. I'll be back with a new series in September. A few changes planned, few new thoughts, whatever. I've been waffling for far too long. Now you're here, you probably have been hitting skip until you can get back to norm. So stop hitting skip, get back to norm and I'll see you in September. Thank you. So, Norm, welcome to the strategy sessions. Thank you for joining me today. Do you want to give a very quick background to your career history and then we're going to jump straight into, uh, picking some of the bones out of that.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Andy, it's fantastic to be with you. It's real privilege. So thank you very much for having me. Uh, yeah, ultimately, kind of my career really has been about, um, turning around and accelerating really well established brands. Um, I started my career, um, at, at Unilever in the UK foods business. Had a chance to work on some incredible local jewels. So great opportunity to learn kind of end to end marketing and a great training ground. So the likes of I Can't Believe It's Not Butter, uh, Pot noodle, Pepperami, Marmite, those sort of Brands. So um, it gave me a really strong foundation. I moved on then to do a bit of marketing strategy and capability consultancy. Um, missed the client side bit um after a little while of that, um, but joined a couple of private equity owned businesses including the Weetabix food company which really sharpened kind of my commercial edge and my go to market and activation which is something I really hold fast to right to this day. Uh, and then I really wanted to kind of broaden my horizons again and so I joined um, Kimberly Clark. So I moved from the foods business in FMCG into personal care and from the UK to an EMEA level. So very diverse and complex and dynamic region. Starting on Andrex, um, and ah, I led uh, shared value programs like Toilets Change Lives which um, brought sanitation um, to communities around the world. Ultimately went global and I think has improved about 5 million lives um, so far. So stuff that I'm really proud of, maybe some things we'll talk about a bit later. Um, and then I got unleashed on uh, my first marketing director role, um, on Huggies and started off by um, turning around Huggies wipes double digit decline into double digit growth, um, and number one market share in the UK and across um, other countries in the emea. And then that got me unleashed onto the big billion dollar um Huggies Nappies business. Um, so something that everyone's got their eye on um, uh, and yeah a lot of pressure but also a lot of fun. Um and these days I'm doing a bit of marketing, um, strategy, uh, consultancy as well, um, working with uh, brand owners, um, uh, as well as with agencies and bringing a client side perspective to agencies.

Speaker A: Brilliant. I mean look, there was some absolute name bomb of brands going off in there. You know, Huggies, Pepper Army, Marmite, I Can't Believe It's Not Butter, Weetabix, these, some of these names are ah darlings of the uk but not, not just the uk, global brands that are you know, huge icons everywhere. So let's jump in. You, you mentioned before the introduction about sort of crisis stuff. So we're going to start there. Seems that we dangled that carrot for people. And that was when you were at Kimberly Clark, uh, on Huggies. So do you want to tell us you know what happened? Major global events, things that probably not in your annual strategy plan. So what happened there?

Speaker B: Yeah, well obviously you know this is a very tragic situation when Russia invaded Ukraine as we all know, just over um, four years ago. So that was in February 2022. Um, 2022, yeah. Um, and I Was looking after Huggies, as you said. Um, both Russia and Ukraine were major markets for Huggies. Um, and Ukraine, we were number one, uh, market share actually, uh, in Ukraine. But when Russia invaded, about 70% of the supply of. Of nappies into Ukraine was, Was cut off. Um, the warehouse in Kiev was bombed. Um, our team based in Kiev, obviously, um, were under enormous threat. So I think the first thing to start with really is, um, caring, putting the people first. And I think Kimberly Clark did an incredible job, uh, in putting our people first and supporting them as they were fleeing for their lives and frankly, and, you know, moving westwards, moving out, um, of the country as well. Um, while all of that was going on, I recognized that there was also a crisis from a consumer perspective because nappies are obviously an essential product, like so many of Kimberly Clark's, um, portfolio. Um, and we had this supply problem. So what I did was really give my team a, uh, very clear objective. It just seemed to come to me. I don't know how, but it was to get the diapers to the babies. Um, and I think that what that did was give them not just something, obviously is very emotional and important because we care about babies and their parents. And, uh, there could be babies and parents in Ukraine going without, given that we were such a big player there. Um, but it also gave them that clarity of purpose to go off and solve the problems. We didn't really know exactly how, but really what we had to do was resource supply to a different factory, um, and simplify the portfolio. And by saying get the diapers to the babies, that, uh, meant any diaper, just a diaper that would fit a baby. So you don't have to worry about, oh, it's the premium or it's the mainline or anything like that. And so that clarity enabled them to close gaps, really. Within just a few weeks, we managed to restore supply. We then did some very rapid innovation to fill some gaps in the portfolio. And then when we were able to kind of take a little dip of data in October 2022, we actually realized that we'd extended our market share leadership in the country. But what was most important was we did get the diapers to the babies. And so, um, not something that I would wish on myself again or anyone, obviously, and most importantly, not on people. Um, but an incredible lesson in leadership. Um, frankly, there was no marketing involved. Right. It was just really about clarity of purpose, leadership. Again, going back to kind of the careful performance that we talked about. Having an environment where people could just go off and solve Problems, um, and take ownership for things.

Speaker A: We, uh, are, uh, blessed and lucky in the UK that we have since the Second World War, not really had to deal with anything like that. Covid is probably the nearest we came to any sort of major supply crisis. And we saw what happened with people hoarding toilet roll food, whatever they could because people panic. So in a situation like that in Ukraine, you can't. I struggle to imagine the challenges and the thoughts going through a parent's mind, keeping their child alive, keeping their whole families alive, parents, aging parents and all that sort of stuff. And then still trying to think, how do we get the essentials to keep these things happening? So to be able to call the team together and say, we need to solve this problem. Because so much of what marketers do in firms like Kimberly Clark is about kind of planning over years and delivering over quarters, isn't it? And it's about, okay, our strategy for the next 12 months, our innovation portfolio or our sales opportunities, our brand share, all that stuff. It's great. And we can sit in meetings and we can plan it out and we present it in March and we start it in September, all that stuff. You've got to, you know, really change the plan and change the delivery and change everything in a matter of days, really. And that, uh, so that speaks a lot about leadership, doesn't it? And back to what you were saying at the beginning so that the team reacted to solve that problem. Uh, uh, you said it's not marketing, is it? Marketing, you know, is marketing all about the customer? And in the end, you know, you were focusing on what the customer needed at that time.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely, look, absolutely, yes. In the sense that, you know, people talk about cliches like consumer first marketing. This makes it very literal.

Speaker A: Right, absolutely.

Speaker B: Um, and I think, look, I've worked on some brands that aren't, that are, that are nice to haves. Right. Um, and so I think that's different. That's maybe about fun, about taste, etc. All very valuable, of course, important part of our lives. Um, but when you work on things like toilet tissue or nappies or, you know, Kimberly Clark has femcare products, these are absolutely critical. And you can't imagine, you know, your life without that. And so, um, there is in a sense a social mission, just providing those products and doing a good job at it. And I think the other piece was because Huggies was by far the market leader. Uh, um, in Ukraine, there's a certain responsibility, I think, that comes with that on an essential product. Um, and so I think that's, that's the responsibility that I took and that we took very, very seriously. Um, and it's about very quickly getting your priorities straight really. Um, these, these crisis moments can be, should be clarifying moments. Um, so all your portfolio strategy of you know, yes, well I need my added value skin care stuff and I need my comfort and you know, main mainstream and my pricing ladders and all that sort of stuff. You realize that what really matters is a diaper that absorbs, that fits. So you go back to the table stakes, the category table stakes and you make sure you provide those in the crisis and then you can build back now from a business and marketing perspective, you know, once the, the tragedy is ongoing as we speak, um, but maybe more stabilized and in a stable bad situation, um, you can then start focusing on other things. But if you didn't respond well to the crisis, you wouldn't really have much of a business to be building from.

Speaker A: Yeah, I also love the way you simplified it. Um, so much marketing gets lost in the communicate, the internal communication of it all the 62 page strategy decks and all that sort of stuff. But that line of get the diapers to the babies. Um, I wasn't in your tip, never worked in your team. But straight away you have a clarity of thought. You could sit on meetings and go, look, this isn't helping us achieve this, let's cut through it. And how do we help achieve that? And just having that clarity of thought is really uh, it helps everybody, it helps unify everyone together. Have you then sort of tried to take that through into uh, just more traditional day to day activity and try and get everybody rallying around that simple, uh, as simple as possible point that you can.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's absolutely, I think that you know, again, while you wouldn't wish it on yourself or anyone, it does teach you that, it does teach you the power of a really single minded and clear message that has some sort of emotional resonance. It's not always easy to replicate that in, you know, in every situation. But um, you know, maybe we'll talk about, about some case studies. I mean I don't want to dip in too much now, but for example, on going years back, even on, on Marmite, you know, we had this, this concept of lovers and haters on Marmite. I don't know how international the audience is, but it's uh, a yeast extract paste in the uk it's got a very strong taste that some people either love or hate. So there was a very clear idea of what the brand was about, but there was also a very clear problem that the brand, the product was just being used on toast at breakfast. Um, and that was a declining occasion. Okay, so that's kind of quite a simple problem definition, right? We're reliant on this one declining occasion. So the simplified mission really was to grow penetration of Marmite. If you're going to talk, you know, marketing strategies, you need to make Marmite more accessible to the lovers so they can keep coming back to it. So there's a very simple kind of penetration drive that then drives a clear occasion based strategy. How, huh, can we make the paste available to people beyond toast? Well, guess what, if we launch a squeezy version that's easier to spread in sandwiches, and then we'll launch a campaign featuring Paddington Bear about how he's for the first time in 50 years trying Marmite on his sandwich instead of marmalade. And that'll tell people a story about sandwiches. And then, oh, by the way, what if we made the taste available, um, throughout the day in snack format? So rice cakes and breadsticks and cheese bites and so suddenly this whole very simple problem. Simple, not simplistic, you know, simple problem definition, simple strategy of making the taste more available then drives the penetration. And that took Marmite from a sort of 2% growth, 100-year-old pace brand to an 11% growth, you know, multi platform brand. Um, so I think that's a, you know, it's another example of, you know, making things kind of simple, not simplistic, and then everyone can get around it and go off and execute brilliantly.

Speaker A: In that answer, there's a fantastic case study of understanding the problem and then coming up with a solution. But the bit I really want to focus on is, um, the bit that actually broke my heart, Norm, if I'm, if I'm completely honest, you are the person responsible for Paddington Bear becoming a corporate sellout. That's really what I'm hearing. Um, I remember when he, uh, when he sold out his values for Marmalade and switched to Marmite thinking. Can't believe Paddington sold out. And it was you who did that. That's your fault.

Speaker B: It was me. It. It was me.

Speaker A: You ruined my childhood.

Speaker B: Amazing. Did I? Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Andy. But, um, Paddington did like it. Some of his friends didn't. Didn't. Were definitely haters of the Marmite sandwich. And you can go back on YouTube and watch some of those videos. But that was, that was great. We had a great partnership with, um, uh, with Paddington, the guys that were running Paddington Bear at the time, Michael, uh, Bond's daughter. And then I ended up meeting Michael Bond and having a really interesting, uh, conversation with him about, about what we were going to do with really, his child, um, Paddington Bear. Um, and, you know, the. Paddington is obviously a fantastic, um, British icon and has become even more famous. And I think I'd like to think that we had a little hand in propelling him towards the, you know, the films and kind of bringing him back into the fore through those.

Speaker A: Well, it was, he was, he was, uh, you know, a big part of my sort of 1980s childhood. But, yeah, was tired, but, you know, was just, uh, one of the retro thing, one of the many things that were disappearing in retroness effectively as time wore on. And I think he did bring him back into sort of people's minds and start that process. So, yeah, you know, absolutely. Uh, you maybe, maybe you've turned it around. You saved Paddington. Maybe that's what you did.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, I don't know about that. I think they've done an amazing job with Paddington, but I'd like to say we had a hand in it and we were very conscious. And I think this is what. One of the things that Michael Bond and his daughter really liked about what we were doing, which was to be very authentic. We. It was literally stop motion animation was an incredible, um, process and so faithfully done, so carefully done exactly, to resonate with, with our generation. Andy, who grew up with, with Paddington, with those stop motion and the little model, um, you know, cost £10,000, that little Paddington Bear. Um, so. So it was done very, very carefully and very, very lovingly and all the right voiceovers and all that sort of stuff. So, um, that attention to detail and that storytelling, I think, um, stands the test of time. And hopefully, yeah, brought, Brought Paddington and the love of Paddington as well as Marmite, of course, um, back into people's hearts and minds and hopefully gave them a platform that when they were ready to launch the films, there was a little bit more currency behind Paddington.

Speaker A: This is a question I'm 100% should ask at the end, but I'm going to ask it now in case we run out of time or I forget. But you've. Your career is littered with icons. I referenced that earlier on and, you know, another one there. Paddington Baron. People have really strong feelings. As I said, you ruined my childhood. You didn't. It's fine. But, you know, people have really strong feelings about icons in their country. So in the uk, Paddington Bear, an icon. Marmite. Love it or hate it, lovers like me love it. Uh, Pepper Army, Andrex, um, Huggies, you know, people. No, that's my brand. And they develop emotional attachments with them. When you take over an iconic brand like that and you are tasked with, you've got to grow this market, you've got to grow Marmite, you've got to grow whatever. You've got to do it with innovation. How do you approach that? You know, how do you find the bits that you want to keep and develop? And how do you find the bits that are actually just turning into shackles on. On the brand because it's aging.

Speaker B: Look, it's something that I've grown up doing. Um, I've been very lucky to, to be on these kind of iconic, established brands. I would say I start with humility. I think that's the most important thing because you realize when you take something on like M, that Huggies or Andrex or M Marmite Pot Noodle, you're standing on the shoulders of giants. There are many generations, grandparents and great grandparents of marketing, um, that have done an incredible job to put you in that position. So I think that's the intent that you start with, is look for the root strengths. Um, and sometimes with Marmite and with Pepper army, things are kind of going okay, but maybe they're just a bit stagnant. And your job is to unleash another level of growth. As I was describing on Marmite, sometimes there are great root strengths, but on something like Huggies with baby wipes, where, you know, I started on that, there were kind of buy one, get two free promotions. It was just the race to zero on price, um, you know, less than a pound a pack, Ah, that sort of thing. And you've got to go back to, why does this brand exist? And it's not just about wiping away we and poo and people we. It was so cheap, people were wiping bird poo off their car windscreens with it. So, you know, going back and saying, well, what is this really for? Who is this for? This is for babies. These are the most delicate, most precious things in our lives. It's for their intimate areas. It's got to be the most gentle. Um, and so that was really about repositioning it from a wiper, a wipe to skincare, uh, a baby skin care product, and kind of talking about skin loving natural fibers and improving the product and the packaging and all that sort of stuff. So you kind of find, you get back to the consumer insight, which is Just fundamentally good marketing. And you combine that with the root strengths of why was this thing even launched? Why was it successful? Why am I here managing this brand? Why has it survived all this time? And then you project and you propel yourself and the brand forward from that point and that can be into new areas, right, like, like with Marmite, going into snacking, recognizing that Marmite is a brand, is a design icon as well, and knowing that it kind of wobbles to the back of the cupboard and gets forgotten. So we ended up doing a whole bunch of homewares, right, with very iconic designs of homeware. So you kind of, you can take the brand in lots of new directions, but you're always building from those root strengths and with a lot of humility and a lot of respect for the great work that people have done before you.

Speaker A: I was reading a case study recently about the decline in KFC in America and how that's been masked by KFC's in growth in most markets except for the US, its whole market, where fried chicken used to be KFC and now it's just under pressure everywhere and they feel like their brand is, uh, now just a value brand. It's always on price, promotion, new chickens being launched. They've just lost the innovation. So maybe, uh, kfc, if you are listening, give Norm a call. He's freelance strategy these days and sounds like the sort of thing you could do with. But it, it's hard, isn't it though? You can. Every decision that I've seen KFC make makes sense at the time, you know, and it must be easy just to get caught in that trap of just moving it one step at a time and everything making sense until you step back and go, oh, what have we done? So it must be, it must be quite difficult though to make those changes and adjust, especially moving a big ship like a Marmite or KFC or you know, and go, oh, no, we just need to. Because we've got to go for growth.

Speaker B: It must be difficult. It is difficult. Um, and I think the thing that sometimes really like you said, Andy, the thing that's really hard to distinguish is what needs to change and what is still fundamentally true. Um, and I think that's again, you know, insight driven approach. You know, there's certain things about why a brand exists that probably will always be the reason why it exists and why people love it or need it. Um, I had a boss, had a great line on similar sort of stuff and this comes up a lot in kind of as technology changes and marketing Tools change as well applies here, which is just because you invented the jet engine doesn't mean that the laws of physics have changed. Right. So it's trying to figure out what are the, what are the innovations and, and what are the new. Whether it's technologies or ideas that you bring to the brand to elevate it, sometimes it's bringing it back to itself or it could be something genuinely new that is going to accelerate this, make this fly faster and what are the things that are the reasons why it flies in the first place? You know, what are those laws of physics for the brand? And so I don't know what the answer is for kfc. My kids would be delighted if I had the opportunity to work on that brand. Um, but, um, but you know, it's, it's trying to distinguish that as you say, it's not easy. But I think going back to an evidence based consumer led approach is probably the, what I would recommend is what works for me in the past rather than an opinion based folklore, you know, some sort of fallacies of just, you know, what we did in the past will never help us in the future. I think that's a fallacy. It's. Oh, uh, that's simplistic. That's not simple. That is simplistic. So I think kind of going back and, and getting to the insights of things again is where I would start.

Speaker A: While we're uh, segueing badly from one meat product into another, let's talk about Pepper army. Um, from KFC to Pepper army because while we were doing the research for this, you told me something about this brand that absolutely blew my mind. Um, I used to be a heavy buyer of this brand when I was a student. I don't know if that's a classic pattern of people buying in the 20s or teens and 20s. Haven't had one in a long time. And the reason I haven't had one in a long time is that as I pay more attention to what I eat now, I'm utterly convinced eating this Dog Chew effectively in a, in a lovely wrapper, the Pepper army brand team are coming for me right now. But uh, eating what looks like a Dog Chew, um, could not be good for me because it just looked like, and smelled like death. But we were doing the call about this and you told me something mind blowing about that brand. Tell everybody about the, the quality of the product.

Speaker B: Yeah, so, so Pepper army is made, um, I believe it's still made in a town called Ansbach in Germany. So southern half of Germany. Um, and as you know, the Germans know how to make a really good sausage, right? Uh, and they really care about it. So people there. And, ah, so it is an incredibly authentic prime cuts. Only hand. It's hand, you know, hand butchered. The pigs are hand butchered. Um, and. And it's prime cuts, and it's a fermented, really authentic Bavarian fermented dried sausage, ultimately is what the product is. Um, and you know what, Andy, I was thinking about this earlier, and it's actually an amazing case study in positioning because, you know, if you started from the product, you said, okay, so what I've got is a really authentic Bavarian fermented dried sausage that, you know, could. Versions of it could easily sit in a delicatessen in Germany, right. And be well loved. Um, so if you position it like that, okay, maybe that would work for, you know, for you, Andy.

Speaker A: Now. Um, and I could see the packaging already, right? You know, it looks like it sit alongside a, ah, German beer and it's all kind of old castles and, you know, just a little bit, you know, the font's gonna look Germanic and all that sort of stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And. And that might. And that might work as a business. Right. Um, but I think what the people who invented, again, the people on whose shoulders I was standing, um, realized was they started with rather than with a product. They started with the consumer, and they thought about this occasion with. With lunch boxes at school, then evolving into kind of, you know, hungry teenagers and young adults, exactly as. As you were, both of us were. Um, and they thought, well, how do I, you know, make this appealing to them as well as maybe their. Their stakeholders, I. E. Their parents? So things like meat snacks and cheese are kind of seen as wholesome, wholesome snacks by parents for their. For their kids versus, say, chocolate bars or whatever. Um, and so this positioning, a brand for the kind of the school kids and teens, this bit of an animal, right? Um, and this kind of. This character, the. The animal, as he was called, this masochistic character who just wants you to eat him. And this kind of cartoon violence of. Of, you know, of the ads, um, as he kind of wants to get torn apart and so on and so forth. Really iconic, really distinctive, um, highly in demand by those kids. And that positioning is a choice, right? It's a strategic choice, and it works and it endures. Um, and it's still successful. And by working for that audience, it positively does not work for. Even though the product truth is still there for you, Andy, it doesn't work for you. Now but guess what? Pepper Army, I think a few years ago was sold to a company called Jack Links, which is a great meat snacking company. Jack Links has a portfolio, their own brand. Jack Links itself is a more grown up meat snacking brand. You know, really kind of authentic jerky, biltong, so on and so forth. So you can start building a brand portfolio to kind of be consumer first and target these different audiences. And Pepper army is very much for kind of the lunchbox teen and young adult and I'm sure still very successful for them.

Speaker A: Listen, you've leaned right into my middle aged snobbery there because I am, I wouldn't say a heavy buyer but a medium buyer of biltong and jerky as a. Oh, this is a good high protein snack that gets me through an afternoon. There's usually a bag in my bag because if I'm rushing between meetings, fire something like would never dream of pulling a Pepper army on because I'd be like, oh this is terrible for me. But the reality is it's a high quality product and I'm just a snob. Fantastic.

Speaker B: It's okay. That's uh, you're just, you're just a person. So that's good, that's fine. Lots more pepperoni products now for you by the way. A few of them have turned up in our favorite fridge too.

Speaker A: Excellent. So I want to come back to the character, the animal, um, you mentioned. It's a distinctive brand asset and one of the most distinctive ones I can immediately think of. I don't have a list of top 10 or anything like that, but really distinctive, really different. Screaming, shouting like you said, masochistic when you were there. Did you, did you launch that character? Did you drop in when that character was already kind of out and about?

Speaker B: So that character was already very well established when I, when I came in. So definitely an incredible gift, um, to be, to be taken on. Um, and one thing I did on Pepper, which I did get into a bit of trouble for, uh, in the broader industry is it uh, was the very early stages of crowdsourcing. Um, so not user generated content, um, but actually putting a brief out to experts, to creators. And obviously that's now evolved right, because now you've got TikTok creators and so on and so forth that are kind of creating brand content. So this was before that, um, but having that clear brief and that character and a story of we wanted to launch kind of mini, little mini Pepper, ah, Pepper armies in, in a bag. Right. So that was just a simple format innovation um, but it made it so easy to kind of give a, a brief to a multitude of people to compete effectively with the creative response. Um, and they created some amazing stuff and I think that then got, then got made and effectively the, you know, the big pepper army animal had lots of little children that were going crazy all over the place.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So very clear kind of product, you know, story. So I think the benefit of, of a character like that when you understand how it works and what its job is and when you're really clear about its role is it suddenly gives you a framework within which to be creative on the one hand and you can keep the brand really fresh. But it also, as we all know, you know, is a distinctive brand asset that kind of drives, you know, recognition, recognition and makes any, any content that you make instantly, you know, highly branded, um, and highly effective. So if you can build those sort of assets over time, they're kind of others that obviously more like idea based, like have a break, have a kid. Kat which is a famous example. It's been going for many decades. I always aspire to do that and uh, it always disappoints me when you know, the new brand manager syndrome hits and somebody decides that they're going to completely change something.

Speaker A: Did you feel that? And it is an internal pressure. As far as I can tell. There's rarely an external pressure when a brand manager joins a brand to say get rid of those distinctive things and do something new. Uh, it's almost an internal thing like I've got to do something to make a mark. Did you ever feel that pressure and uh, just kind of talk yourself out of it or did you, you know, always know, don't mess with this.

Speaker B: I've always wanted to have an impact and make a mark, but I think for me that's about the results and the growth that you drive. Right. Not about the pretty pictures that you, you might create. Um, and, and I think you're, you're touching on something really important and maybe again just being practiced at working on these established brands and being lucky to work with, you know, those fantastic brands. Um, I guess my approach is always to, yeah, to, to kind of start with that humility and my purpose and my intent is to grow the brand, understand the consumer, um, and work with what's, what's what with what's working. Um, and you know, and change up what needs to be changed rather than, you know, more what can. The trap is you get into an ego based mission and you're, you're self aggrandizing. How can I become famous for doing xyz? For me, that just follows. Right? So if I, if I've become famous for doing the Paddington Bear stuff or the snacking stuff and Marmite, great. But what I'm proud of is the 11% cumulative annual growth rate that I drove for three years. Um, and that's because I use what Marmite was really good for. So I think that's. It's about intent and attitude. And I think I'm always skeptical of people who are coming across with, uh, uh, this brand is here to make me famous. No, I'm here to make this brand famous.

Speaker A: Yeah. And look, we've all met people like that in the industry. Um, many of them we'll not name names. Um, or maybe we'll do off camera. No. Yeah, but it's interesting then, you, as you trying to focus on that growth, I want to ask about the agencies that you've worked with over, you know, some of these products and some of these brands, because people in agencies want to do something different and take that brief and take it on a little bit. So kind of, yeah, I know, you know, James Hayhurst from the Magic Source course, and I love to ask this question about how do you get great work and great relationships between agencies and clients and, you know, on the brands you've worked on, how have you managed to get them to, to stay within the confines of the existing brand assets but also deliver incredible work that's helped you to grow?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a, it's a fantastic question, A huge one. James has got a whole course on this. Right.

Speaker A: Link in the show notes to James's course.

Speaker B: We'll put it in to James and the Magic Source. Um, I think it actually starts at a human level before we get to the brand, before we get to the brief, critical components. Obviously, um, with agencies, it's about partnership working, um, and trying to kind of avoid the sort of transactional relationship. And I think that starts at a human level. It's about, you know, going for lunch with people. It's all those micro things we talked about earlier. Also with team leadership, uh, you know, it's the same thing. It's kind of creating that sense of partnership that each partner, and it can be multiple agencies. Sometimes you're leading multiple agency team as well as the team that you're leading on the client side that you've each got a highly valuable incremental gift to give to this brand and business. And therefore everyone feels really secure and really safe in the value that they're bringing and you know that each of you is bringing something unique, meaningful. So with everyone feeling valued, with all the human relationships strong again, you know, what's your life like beyond this, so on and so forth, that then creates a, uh, platform that you can then give a really clear brief. Right. So the skill of brief writing and brief giving and you start kind of together. I think co creating the brief is a really powerful thing to do with the agent. Everyone then buys into it. All the questions get answered through the process as well. The boundaries start getting laid out. You know, are we going to move away on Marmite from love and hate? Are we going to kill the animal and pepper army? Obviously no, but this is what we can do. So it creates, you know, the freedom of a type brief, all those sorts of things that we know about and really solid, um, partnerships, um, that I think is then the magic source that creates the great work.

Speaker A: I've heard lots of conversations about briefs before, from AI being used by clients to, you know, short briefs, long briefs, good brief, bad briefs. I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about co creating the brief with the agency. So I just want to dive in a little bit on that. So you must have, you know, maybe, uh, the objectives of what you're trying to achieve, I'm assuming, sit on your shoulders and then you'll, you bring the agency in at that stage to start to sort of fill out some more of the color around that to make sure that everybody's on the same page.

Speaker B: Yeah, I've done that multiple times and I think it's even. You've got a business challenge, right. And you've got a sense of what the consumer behavior change, you know, is, and you might have sort of the outlines of a brief in your mind. But the best, the best kind of work I've done is where you then just take those sketches and you sit down with the agency. Now, in a pitch situation, it's different, right? You're going to write the brief up front, but in an established agency relationship, you bring in the, the account team, the planners and strategists, etc, and you actually workshop it. And, and that means that you're in the whole together. It's a challenge, right? It's hard. But you're in it together now and you bring the stakeholders as well in appropriate points in this. So, uh, everyone's bought in into it. If you're going to bin it, you've got to be in it sort of thing. Um, uh, and you feel like you've got a shared challenge now. Um, and look, you know, going back to that Paddington Bear example, that was one of those times where it was really difficult. There were multiple, um, attempts at that brief, that sandwich brief. Everyone bought into it, everyone knew why we were doing it. But it was a really hard creative challenge to the point where, I mean it got dicey. Um, you know, with the agent, with ddb, with the agency and the brilliant people. It was like, we're not solving this, guys. Have we gone stale? What are we going to do? And I remember a meeting where they, they pulled out, they read through a few scripts and I was kind of, um, my head was kind of going into my hands and then suddenly they pulled out this Paddington Bear. Um, and it was just instant love. Um, but that all came from having those difficult conversations, those real conversations all came from sharing the challenge. And I think they were feeling as disappointed as we were in the struggle and then as delighted and elated as I was when, when that creative spark happened.

Speaker A: I don't think I've heard that before and I think there's genius in it. So much so that that's going to be the clip for Social to promote the episode. So there we go. Um, but yeah, I love that. Why wouldn't you, it seems so obvious. Why wouldn't you bring the agents in? If you trust the agency, if you've got that relationship with them, bring them in and help co create it to get better work.

Speaker B: Well, the agencies have seen many more briefs than most clients have written. Right. So they also know what brief looks like and sounds like. And so, uh, you know, I've had agencies, you know, made really great suggestions on, even on the briefing template. On like what. Yeah, how to clarify it or great sections to add and so on and so forth. So I don't know, it seems like a no brainer. Um, I would recommend it. I would recommend it.

Speaker A: Do you ever have any trouble trying to get them not to solve the brief while you're writing the brief? Is that, is that a challenge? Maybe? Because I can see sometimes if the agency bringing in and go, all right, um, we can do this if we write it that way and you're like, no, no, let's get the brief first and then you can solve problems.

Speaker B: Well, I think, I think what I would do, yeah, I can see the temptation. It's often a temptation going from strategy to execution, isn't it? And sometimes it can be iterative, sometimes it can be useful. But I would say that's. And um, James and I have Spoken about this is like, when do you get creatives involved? I wouldn't get the creators involved at that stage. Stage. So I think you keep it to kind of the account and the strategy team, and I think they're usually better placed and, you know, have the discipline not, not to do that too much. Um, but you do want to make sure that this thing has legs. Right? They can, you know, can be a kind of an integrated and kind of 360 idea. Um, that it's true to the brand that you could see this running in one form or another for the next decade or more. Um, so. So it's those sorts of things that sometimes imagining what it could look like can be useful.

Speaker A: Now, we started with marketing as a force for good with, ah, the Ukraine story. And I want to kind of wrap up and finish in a similar sort of vein as well. Because you touched on at the beginning about the, um, campaign that you were involved in that has helped bring, um, sanitation. Is that the right phrase? I've used to a number of people. So the episode, an earlier episode, sorry, than this was with, uh, Mike Brook, and they worked on a campaign for the type 1 diabetes community, which was a visual metaphor, it worked out in the end of juggling a blue balloon, which is what life's like living with T1D, which ended up reaching over 200 million people. But more importantly than that, the people in the type 1 diabetes community said this really, really helps us talk to people and explain what life's like living with this. You just constantly just doing this really tiring thing. So stories of when marketing can do good for the world, because, let's be honest, we get a lot of stick in this industry. Most of it deserved as well. Um, so let's talk a little bit about this sort of marketing for good, um, angles that you've been involved with.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think the phrase, a common phrase is doing well by doing good. And I think that's. That's the thing with, um, you know, different in the charity sector, where the entire mission, obviously, is to raise, raise awareness and then ultimately donations. When you're working in a commercial business, um, there's a distinct difference between philanthropy and a lot of companies have incredible foundations and they do amazing work and that's great and they should do it. That's philanthropy. That's just giving, um, shared value. Doing is doing well by doing good. So you're growing the business as well as then having a social or environmental impact of some sort that's positive. And the amazing thing about that is because it delivers business results, the business maintains its interest in doing it, and then it does it at a higher and higher scale, and then both the business impact and the social impact grows. So in the example, uh, on Andrex of toilets changed lives, it started very small. I really led the pilot. Okay. And then lots of other people did amazing work beyond that. Um, so the pilot really was very small. It was on a particular pack of Andrex, I think, nine rolls in Sainsbury's partnership with UNICEF, where 25 pence from each pack would go to UNICEF to run a sanitation project, uh, in Angola, in this case, right. Now, that pilot in Sainsbury's delivered a profit ROI of 1.85. So £1,85 for every £1, um, spent. Um, so there was a strong business case, and it delivered incremental net sales as well, and it improved the lives of 60,000 people across some rural villages in Angola. So we had a proof of the model, right, that if you can get incremental feature and display in store, that is going to drive growth for the brand and the business, as it always does. You can do that maybe with a, uh, lower level of discount so you can deliver more profit as well. You're not having to do like a half price or buy one, get one free because you're aligned with the retailer and it's good for the retailer too. Um, that model then got scale. The UK team did it bigger and bigger with m more retailers over time. It went across my region, Europe, Middle east and Africa. And there were local executions of it in South Africa and various other countries benefiting their local communities. And, uh, then ultimately it went global into Latin America and Asia and other places. So by the time, after several years of this, I think Kimberly Clark's reporting is that it's improved the lives of 5 million people globally, and it continues in several markets to this day. We're talking over 12 years now that it's been running in some markets because it continues to deliver business results alongside, um, social impact. Um, and it's an incredible social impact because it's obviously about health and hygiene, but it's also about safety. Women going without a toilet is an incredibly dangerous thing in the middle of the night and so on in isolated places, places. So there's there are many, many related social impacts. Helping girls go to school when they're on their period, it just has so many benefits. So I have to say that's the stuff I wish I could do more and more. It's the stuff that I'm most proud of. Um, and I'd love to look back on my career and say I did even more of those sorts of activities.

Speaker A: Again, when you describe this, and I know there must have been challenges and, you know, hurdles and bumps in the road along the way, but it sounds like it's such a brilliantly simple idea that you tested a big enough scale. You know, Sainsbury's is, ah, a big retailer, second biggest in the country. Well, it changes, but, you know, big retailer, uh, one pack, it worked, let's expand it. Great. 12 years later, we've done good for millions of people. It sounds so simple. I wonder why don't more brands get on board with this type of approach? I know lots do, but why? You know, it drives sales, it drives good across the world. Why don't more companies get behind it?

Speaker B: Well, maybe I made it sound a bit simpler than it, than it was. Um, you know, the business model is really dicey, actually. It is really hard. Um, you've got to find a growth mechanism in there. In this case, it was, if we do this and we put it on pack and we partner with the retailer, they will give us incremental feature and display. And in all honesty, of course, consumers want to help our fellow human beings, but that concern was not going to drive a huge incremental growth. It was trying to find the mechanism that would almost guarantee growth. So it's not just about leveraging people's care for their fellow human or the cause. So I think it's those sorts of things where you have to find the mechanics. That's where it gets quite tricky.

Speaker A: But in many ways, though, when we talk about innovation, I think the biggest problem innovation has in the UK particularly, is that people like to judge everything a success or a failure. I, I don't see innovation that way. I see an innovation that you decide not to continue because it doesn't achieve the outcomes that you wanted is a successful outcome. So the, the way you described that process, you tested it on one size product with one retailer, if that had been an unmitigated disaster, that's still a success. Uh, it was almost like you couldn't lose in this. It would have. It worked or it didn't. It didn't, it didn't work. We can kill it. We can try it. Maybe with a different pack, we can try something different, a different mechanic and at some point you'd find something that worked as it happened. You found something that worked fairly early on and scaled it. So with that, you know, the testing approach of Just let's test it, let's try it. And you did it at scale. It worked. So you started to build and I'm sure you measured as you built it out across further things. Does it work if we put it across all our packs rather than just one? You must have tested all that so that the, maybe the mechanic isn't lift and shift, but the process of getting there surely must be applicable to every brand.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I think it's, it's the lesson from that was find the mechanic that works for you in this retailer or in this country doesn't have to be this precise amount of money per pack. Um, and, and yeah, the, the model was adjusted so it wasn't exactly the same execution when it went, you know, national or when it went, know, international. Um, that's where the skill and the judgment of all the other people involved across Kimberly Clark, you know, came to the fore because they knew what would work and what would be the mechanic that would almost guarantee the growth, the commercial growth and the profitability. It was different in different markets and there were cultural sensitivities as well. In South Africa, it made a lot more sense to support the local communities. Right. In rural South Africa, there are still challenges with toilets and schools and, and, and rural villages without, you know, adequate sanitation. So it made a lot of sense for them to do that. And also what you're judging in terms of short term ROI versus maybe some of the brand power effects that you might say, well, this a little bit longer term, uh, effect that we, that we judge as a positive business impact. So again, there's kind of flexibility there. Um, but the model, at least the pilot model kind of gives you the, the building blocks.

Speaker A: No, I, I love it and I love that pilot approach. And if you, if anyone listening takes one thing from this is just test stuff and don't ever see it as a failure. It's always a success. It can be a negative success or a positive success, but it's always a success trying things. So look, Norm, just before we wrap up, do you have a, um, resource, a book, a podcast, the course that you think people who are listening should check out?

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. It might take us full circle actually to the beginning of the conversation around leadership. But, um, for YouTube viewers, I'm holding up a book, um, which is called, um, Crucial Conversations. Um, and this is a new one as well.

Speaker A: I love new books on the podcast. M. No one's ever said this one before.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's, um, it's, it's tools for talking when stakes are high. So, you know, this happens to us in our. In our home, you know, personal lives, of course. Um, but it happens a lot in business and when you're working, you know, with big stakeholders or matrix organizations, but. But anywhere you realize that it could be for you, it could be for the person you're speaking with, um, that things are getting emotional and the stakes are high for whatever reason. And you might not think that the stakes are high yourself, but they are high for the other person. So it gives some really practical tools for how to engage in those sorts of conversations successfully so they end up in a constructive place. And the one thing that I. That I take out of it is actually the first thing it starts with, which is kind of start with what's in your heart, start with your intent. And a lot of the times we come into a conversation, you know, wanting to be right or wanting to prove how clever we are. Um, not understandable intentions. I have them as well. We all do.

Speaker A: You've wounded me. No, destructive.

Speaker B: Yeah. How can I prove that I'm right and you're wrong rather than the intent of being. How can we grow this brand together? Um, how can we maybe share information and maybe rather than saying, this is my data, your data, let's put data into kind of a bucket or a pool, if you like, and look at it together, and we'll solve this together, even if we have different ideas about the most likely successful execution. So it puts your mind in a different place when you just check your intentions. Often they're not great, and you just say, okay, no, what if my intention was this? Uh, you know, I want us both to be successful. This is about the business or the brand or the issue, not the people. All those sorts of things then lead flow into a much more constructive conversation. But it's not a long book. I would highly recommend it. Um, uh, and I think it'll help not just in business, actually, but in life.

Speaker A: That sounds like an absolute belter. There is a link in the show notes to that book, which I'm also going to order immediately or sooner. Um, Norm, just before we head off, then, what is the best way for anyone who wants to get hold of you? They've maybe listened and thought, I like the sound of that. We need Norm to come and work on our brand. Uh, what's the best way for them to track you down?

Speaker B: I think track me down on LinkedIn. Um, you know, connect with me, message me on LinkedIn. Uh, and love to have a conversation with you.

Speaker A: Perfect, Norm. Thank you very much for your time.

Speaker B: It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, Andy.