190 Christine Barnes, Coach and Author: The Inclusion Trap - Why Leaders Are Getting It Wrong Without Knowing It

Speaker A: I was finishing my book and I had an editor, a book coach. She asked me, as I was, uh, kind of in a final rewrite, okay, what's your call to action? And at first I went, oh, my God, does everything have to have a call to action? And she said, okay, fine. What do you want people to do after they read your book? And then I stopped. What popped into my head, it was completely unexpected. Create an online community. Make it global. Make it a gathering place for people who are curious about and committed to inclusive workplaces. And my first thought was, I can't do that. And, uh, my second thought was, well, who would come? But at the same time, I knew, like, oh, shoot, I can't, um, unthink this now. I have got to do this.

Speaker B: I'm Dr. Gary Crotaz, and this is the Unlock Moment m the podcast about life changing flashes of clarity. In each episode, I talk to extraordinary people about the moment everything shifted when they suddenly KN the right path ahead. These are powerful stories of purpose, resilience, and transformation. Listen closely and you might just discover the key to unlocking your own future. Before we start, I want to ask you one thing. You're about to hear a conversation that could change how you see your own path. If someone you know needs a moment of clarity too, please do share this with them. As ever, thanks for being here and welcome to the Unlock. Um, moment. Hello, dear listener, and welcome to another episode of the Unlock Moment Podcast. And today's guest is a connection I made through the wonderful Germain St. Denis. If you haven't listened to episode 76, then add it to your to Listen list now. Some of the most powerful shifts in leadership come from seeing something that's been there all along, but never fully acted on. Christine Barnes has spent her career inside some of the world's most complex organizations, from IBM to Oracle, Roche to Genentech. Helping leaders navigate change, build capability, and improve how their organizations actually work. Now she also teaches what she's learned in the hallowed halls of the University of California, Berkeley. Christine's new book, Inclusionable Transform how youw Lead and Elevate youe Team's performance came from a realization that while inclusion is often treated as a checkbox, the real magic happens when leaders realize it's up to them to architect inclusive environments. Her work now focuses on helping leaders engage with that idea in a more practical and personal way, and building a community of people who want to lead more consciously and effectively. And of course, in this conversation, as ever, I'm looking forward to learning about the unlock moments that shaped her, uh, thinking. Christine Barnes, it's a real pleasure to welcome you to the Unlock moment.

Speaker A: Thank you, Gary, and I would say the same. Back to you. Um, very excited to connect and talk today.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Thanks so much for coming. Now, we always start with this. Where do we need to start in your story in order to understand the person you are today?

Speaker A: I really love this question. Thank you for asking. We need to go back in time to a young girl of five or six years old and two parallel experiences, or, I suppose, narratives, you could say, that really shaped who I am today. First of all, um, at that age, I was, uh, in my family unit. Older sister, younger brother, mother at home, father working. I was on my own a lot because my older sister was already off at school. My younger brother was still an infant. My mom was busy running the house, so I was on my own. And I learned to read somewhere around five years old. And that became my world. I escaped into books, and before I got to first grade, I had read Black Beauty. That was my first big story. And it was marvelous. I was transported into other lives, other people's adventures, and I was. It was so exciting. When I got to school, I thought, oh, finally I'll have other people to talk about things with. And at first, it was even better than I thought. Um, things to learn, uh, questions in the classroom. And I was one of those kids that always had my hand up and waving my hand, saying, I know the answer. Pick me. Pick me. And I began to realize over time that the other kids teased me for that because they thought I was showing off or whatever. And I didn't like the teasing. I was confused, actually. Weren't we all here to learn things together? Um, and I found that if I was quiet, if I didn't speak up, uh, I kind of disappeared. And then it stopped. And I still did well on tests, and the teachers liked me, and I got. I got good grades. But where do I escape to? Was back into books. So I just kept reading. And when I was reading, I was never lonely because of the stories. I was in the other stories. So books then kind of kept me apart from the other kids. And I wasn't disliked or picked on, but I was just sort of left to myself. And the second thing that was going on in parallel, again, part of my narrative. My parents expected me to get good grades once they saw I was doing that. And I know now what they were trying to do. They, like all parents, I think they were trying to instill values in me like Achievement and independence. Take the initiative and be resilient. Don't expect other people to do things for you. You know, make the effort and so on. But in my kind of little kid brain, um, I started to connect that the way to get love and acceptance from them was to get good grades, to be the best, get top marks. And so I began to have this tension or polarity. I couldn't have called it that back then, but I know that now. Of. On the one hand, I wanted to fit in and I wanted to belong to the groups I was in at school, but I needed to please my parents in order to get what I needed from them. So on the one hand, I wanted to belong. On the other hand, I had to stand out. And that became this story for myself, really, for the rest of my life. We can fast forward to about, uh, six years ago, and that's when I enrolled in my doctoral program. And it was at an age when most of my friends or colleagues around my age were retiring or thinking about retiring. And people were shocked, like, what are you doing? And incredulous. But I wanted to keep learning because I did have this lifelong curiosity and collecting ideas. And so, uh, I. So I wanted to learn things. And in this case, I enrolled in a. In a doctoral program on change and leadership. I finally had a problem. I wanted to research. And it's probably one of the reasons it took me so long to get into a doctoral program. I wasn't sure, what am I going to study? Here's what it began to be after six decades of the Civil Rights act of 1964 in the United States, which was put into place essentially to eliminate discrimination in the workplace. I had been working long enough to notice that there still was an imbalance. There was. There was, uh, you could say underrepresentation of women and people in different ethnic and racial groups that were not showing up in leadership. And I couldn't figure out why, because we were spending as a. As a country. I'm just talking about the United States per se, because that was. I didn't want to go too far. Spending billions of dollars attracting and recruiting and hiring and bringing diverse populations into the front door. But it was like a revolving door because many people would come in and look around and see maybe some people like them, um, but they would look up and see very few people like them. And they were also just not feeling motivated by that. So they would leave. And I didn't understand why. And so my dissertation became. And I'm sort of cutting three years of figuring it all out into a soundbite. So my dissertation was on inclusionary practices of leaders in stem, so the science, technology, engineering and math, uh, organizations. Um, and I loved the rigor. I loved what I learned. The framework, again, it was hard work, but it was also so enlightening and so revealing to me, um, to study the problem, to talk about the problem, to decide how to, um, uh, present the findings, and then what's the recommendation? So all that's good, but here's the thing. Nobody reads a dissertation. I mean, your committee has to, but nobody does. And I had this huge letdown after I finished, uh, for about six months a year. It's like, now what. And what I realized was I needed to write a book. I, uh, had to change from academic into business book narrative. But why not share my research? Why not share my findings, why not share my stories that I had learned from the people I interviewed as part of my research and. And, um, give some. Some tips or some help? And this is a little bit coming back to that. That kid who said, I know things, I want to share things. I can. I have something I can share. Would you like to hear it? And that became. That became the nucleus of my book. And that's what. But I didn't know that when I started writing the book. But this return to, I have something I can share. I can connect with people this way. And so that's. That's kind of who I am today, is shaped by that need, that craving, uh, to connect, um, but also to contribute in a way that I can be authentic to myself.

Speaker B: Do you remember a moment in that journey around going from the writer of the dissertation, but nobody was reading it to. There's a bigger mission here. I want people to figure this out. Do you remember being in a place, being with people, where that clarity became sharper for you?

Speaker A: Thank you. Actually, that's like the unlock moment, isn't it? And that actually came. I was, uh, finishing my book, and I had an editor, a book coach, the wonderful Karen Williams from Libra Toss. Might as well put that plug in. Uh, she asked me as I was, uh, kind of in a final rewrite. Okay, what's your call to action? And at first I went, oh, my God, does everything have to have a call to action? It's such an overused, you know, term like, everybody wants that. And she said, okay, fine. What do you want people to do after they read your book? And I said, oh, okay, let me think about that. So I. By myself in my home office, and I'm writing. And I said, okay, um, uh, you know, after you read this book, please try out these ideas and let me know how it goes. And then I stopped and I sat back and I kind of stared out my window and I went, well, that's pretty passive. How am I going to know if they do that? That means they'd have to reach out to me. And what if. That sounds like a lot of work and that's, uh. In that moment of that seems pretty passive, what popped into my head? It was completely unexpected. Gary. Create an online community. Make it global. Make it a gathering place for people who are curious about and committed to inclusive workplaces. Uh, and my first thought was, I can't do that. I've never done anything like that. And my second thought was, well, who would come, who would come to my place? And that was when my little kid part came out, like, oh, how do you know people want what you're saying? But at the same time, I knew, like, oh, shoot, I can't, um, unthink this now. I have got to do this. And so what that, uh, became was my higher purpose. And so it shifted for me from write a book, tell my story, publish it, and feel good about it, which is true. That's what I wanted to do. To this sense of connection at a global scale when, um, I don't even know how to. I'd never worked on a website. I post on LinkedIn, but not that often. And so that was that. Like, oh, my goodness, this is what I have to do. And that's what I've been trying to do since then.

Speaker B: I love it because it's such a beautiful articulation of what an unlock moment's all about. So the reason why I asked that question, sorry, from just being a generally curious person about where do you need to start in your story? Is because the stories people choose to tell, they could tell any story, and they choose certain stories, there's often a connection of this thread. There's not necessarily a thread that they have even figured out themselves. Sometimes it is, um, I hear in your story about your childhood, the word I wrote down was belonging. Belonging in your community at school, belonging in family and acceptance and all of that. Um, and then an unlocked moment. Um, that moment of remarkable clarity is like a lens on what I call your deepest underlying sense of purpose. So it's not something big and broad necessarily. It can be something very specific, which for you is something about going beyond passive into something much more active. And I hear you going, I want to do something with this, I want to make something happen, which is a shift on from maybe where you were younger to a, ah, place of. I mean, one of the other people I had on the podcast, Jenny Fernandez, she talked about I wanted to play a bigger game with the way she articulated it. And she was like, so I think about how I actively engage with people and make things happen in the work that I do. Um, and I think it's so interesting in this space because there's a huge number of people who talk about inclusion, and there are lots of kind of, I would say, today, accepted principles of what people should do. And yet, as you described, there's lots and lots of workplaces that are not actually very inclusive for all that they might be ticking the boxes of doing the right kinds of things. When you're in this mindset now of saying, I've got some things that I want m people to really understand. What's the difference between the general narrative of inclusion and what you want people to really know?

Speaker A: What I have found to be successful in these conversations that I have had, and I just had one last night at an open house event that some people I know were putting on, is to make the connection with people for what's the problem they're trying to solve and how inclusion can be a strategy for that. So putting it in business terms, one of the people I took, if I can back up a step, when I was writing my book, I interviewed about 15, uh, experts, leaders and other folks in the world that I said to them, I want to write the kind of book that people like you would buy. And so I asked the question, what would make you pick up a book on inclusion? And a very senior executive at a tech company, uh, that I know and like and have worked with said, you know, Christine, I probably wouldn't pick up a book about inclusion. He said, however, I want to be a more effective leader. And so if your book had some practical advice and tips that was relevant to me, I would pick it up. So by putting it in terms of it's a strategy, it's not a nice thing to do. It's not a flavor of the month kind of leadership technique. It's grounded in the knowledge that the primary relationship between people at work is a leader or manager and the employee. And if I ask any leader and I've done this, how satisfied are you with the effort and the output and outcomes that you're getting from your team when you think about it? Well, they could do better. Okay. How clear are you about what each member of your team has as their strengths, as their deepest abilities, as their what, uh, motivates them, and then they go quiet because chances are pretty good, they don't really know. And they're like, yeah, but we have all these very, you know, these goals and we have, we check in with these measurements and like, yeah, but do you really know? And if you don't know what each person in your organization is bringing to the table with their unique strengths and be able to manifest m that with them, you're actually not only doing them a disservice, but you're inefficient. Your goals, you're not going to meet your goals, or if you do, it's going to be based on compliance as opposed to that commitment that you really want. And so putting it in those terms of business need, putting it in the terms of a strategy, uh, and then the fact is you're able to do this, you don't need special training. Uh, has been kind of eye opening for some people. They've really been thinking about it.

Speaker B: Hi, Gary here. Just a quick announcement. If you're enjoying the Unlock moment, there are now two other podcasts in the Unlock family you might love too. The new Unlock your leadership podcast dives deeper into the tools, ideas and reflections that help you grow as a leader. Practical, thought provoking and grounded in real experience. And for something shorter, the box of keys podcast brings you quick, bite sized leadership lessons. Just a few minutes to spark insight and inspiration in your day. You can find Unlock your leadership and the box of Keys right now on your favorite podcast app. Just search for the names and don't forget to follow so you never miss an episode. Now back to the unlock moment. And that's really interesting because at no point in there did you talk about the what I would describe as sort of like the classic language of diversity programs. It's not about that. It's about are you helping your teens be at their best individually and collectively for what they do? That's really interesting.

Speaker A: Yes. Are you creating that environment? Um, I should probably mention the definition of inclusion that I am using. First of all, there's no universally agreed definition, but in my research I found the research about it that made the most sense to me in the business context is that it consists of two things. One is that people feel seen and valued for their unique contribution and talent, and they know that that contribution is valued by the group they're part of. So they're part of a group, they belong to a group, and they're unique and very Hard to get both of those things to be true because other studies I've read said that, uh, some people, especially people that are not in the majority of the group, understand that in order to belong, you either have to fit in and assimilate, which they don't want to do, or you disappear, you withhold, you draw back because you don't want to do, or you act out because you feel like you've got to change something. In none of those cases are they bringing their best selves to the table. That whole idea of what do we even mean by inclusion was fascinating to me. One of the questions I asked in my research was the difference between diversity and inclusion. And guess what? Uh, most of the leaders I interviewed could not make that distinction. They tended to treat the two as the same thing. We added the term inclusion about 20 years ago. In fact one of the best books I've used as a reference book, and I still use it today. Um, the author, she's on her fifth edition of the book, but she says in the foreword of it that 20 years ago the publishers wouldn't let her use the word inclusion in the title because they said nobody knows what that means.

Speaker B: Now you've created a new word. I think you've created a new word inclusionable in your book title. What does that mean?

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. To be honest with you, I did find that word out in the universe of the Internet on uh, a website that was like 15 years old or 14 years old. And so I can't say I invented the word, but I repurposed it. So it consists of three things. If you're a leader, you are accountable for inclusion. So accountable for inclusion and you're able. I want to destroy the myth that inclusion has to be handled by DEI experts or by. If you send people to a psychological safety workshop, that's sufficient. Now please understand, DEI experts are critical. They're absolutely necessary. It's like oxygen. We have to have that kind of expertise for sure. And psychological safety, well known, it's absolutely, um, essential. But uh, what I believe has happened is that we've outsourced. We as leaders have, ah, outsourced that accountability to those entities because it's easy because it also replaces the need to do it yourself. So three parts, accountable for inclusion and you're able.

Speaker B: I'm interested in the idea of bias because I think that I meet a lot of leaders today who are, uh, they're great leaders. Um, and one of the things that makes them great is that they don't shy away from the fact that they might have biases. There's not an expectation that the perfect leader is wholly unbiased because this is real life, and we all do have biases. When you've led in your career, have you been mindful of having biases? And has that helped you understand this as you've done your own work in the topic?

Speaker A: I've definitely understood the value of recognizing my biases. I can't tell you I recognize them in the moment as much as after the fact. And I could tell you some. Well, and I do, in my book, put in a few stories of my own, examples of my biases. Um, one very recent one, actually. And I write about it in my introduction to my book. Um, that that section is called Hidden Heroes. And I was in my research and I had volunteers who would let me interview them. And so I sat down with one leader. It was all on Zoom, and I didn't know him. And he was, uh, quite abrupt and a little bit brusque when we sat down. And I always ask, I have to ask, is it okay if we record this? And I'll send you the recording and you can choose if you don't want anything. He goes, I don't care what you put in. I'm like, oh, okay. Um, and so we started to. I started asking my questions, like, very back and forth, very rapidly. Pattern. And I was thinking at the time, oh, my gosh, typical, I hate to say it, white male, kind of scientist guy. I'm not going to get very much out of him at all. This is going to be a very, kind of waste of time. But I had, you know, let's keep going, because I'm in the middle of this interview, and I was thinking that. I was aware that I was thinking that. And I asked him a question about when he was aware, uh, of needing to do something different about inclusion. And this is what was the complete game changer for me. He said, I got feedback on, uh, an assessment form that I don't give enough recognition to my team at. Uh, first I was really hurt. Like, what do you mean? I don't. Of course I do. He said. Then I decided to make it a goal. I'm going to find two recognitions a week. And he said, at first I thought it was going to be very hard. I'm going to have to make up stuff. And then he paused. He said, you know what? Uh, it wasn't like that at all. Once I started looking for it, and I had it in my calendar, my diary, to do it it wasn't hard at all. I was able to find that recognition, and he became my hero. And that's how I write about him, as someone who was able to articulate what they had, how they had shifted. But then I realized how I had a bias about him. I was literally going to write off the whole interview and sort of go quickly to the end, and I'm like, here we go again. You know that it happens a lot. And my other biases were around being relentlessly positive about how I wanted people to do things. I'm a positive person. And so I was using that to kind of push people into doing things that I thought would be great. It's embarrassing to say how much I did that, but I have learned since then that that was my bias, was, it'll be great. Come on, let's do this. But it's not for everybody.

Speaker B: Positivity is a good thing. Uh, and I love positive people. But you're right that. And I find the same as you will do, that our default is to think a little bit, that the people around us, the people that work with us, see the world a bit like we do, understand the world a bit like we do think, uh, that the right way to go is a bit like what we think the right way to go is. And the day that they realize that other people see the world differently, act differently, prioritize differently, it's all around. And that's okay. It's a that's okay bit, makes the big difference. Um, and I think I let you feel a bit like sometimes we might feel like you have to push people into that place, but in reality, and you're describing for yourself and for this other leader, there's a moment when you figure it out for yourself, and in that moment, it becomes suddenly clear. I mean, this is how I describe unlocked moments. People, uh, don't have unlock moments all the time. Not true unlock moments. They have them from time to time, maybe two, three, four times in their career, and they'll think back and they'll go, I remember being in that room, being in that conversation with that person, looking out of that window, and this thing was suddenly clear to me and was forever clear. Uh, and often these kind of leadership revelations, I will work with people relatively later in their career, and they'll suddenly go, oh, uh, my life changed in that moment when I realized that this is important. And it was a real blind spot for me before. Do you think of leaders where you've seen them have that breakthrough moment themselves?

Speaker A: Oh, yes, yes. Um, I had the privilege of doing some coaching, executive coaching, um, and walking that path with a leader who is motivated, who is curious, um, is so rewarding. I almost just have to sit back and let them talk. Uh, and the realization that they're having, if I can ask a few powerful questions to help them reflect, um, they have to be ready, they have to be self aware. Um, my premise of all of this is that there's sort of three entities that exist together. There's yourself and um, you have to know yourself first. You can't do any of this work until you, until you're willing to do that, to reflect. And then there's knowing others, your team, the people you're with. And then there's even knowing the organization environment that you're in because that, that is part of it, that's influencing you as much as you're influencing it. And not all environments are the same. Look, there can be bad leaders in, in great companies and there can be great leaders in bad companies. It happens because of the microclimate. Um, but if I can start with somebody's self awareness, um, we can, we can walk that path. And it's, it's magic, it's a privilege to watch people have their realization of what's, what's unlocking for them. And uh, just, you can, I could just tell by their eyes. The light goes on. It's really beautiful.

Speaker B: What do you see them having to let go of in order to encompass that new reality?

Speaker A: Great question. Let go of their own, um, habit, their own pattern, their own realization that this is how they've always done it and be willing to step into the unknown of this is something new. But I have to do this. Uh, I have to do it because it's, it, I recognize it, it makes sense. Um, one of the things I say to people when I coach them is the most, whether it's a team or an individual, the most powerful thing I can give you or help you with is the knowledge. It's the ability to choose. But in order to choose your path, you have to notice what's happening. Then you have to name it, here's what's going on. And then you have to say, okay, now what? Do I continue on this path or do I choose something different? And we get into our patterns just like a bias, we get into our biases and we think that's what it is and we just keep going. But when we can interrupt that pattern or that bias and say, wait a minute, there's something else going on here, um, that's when we can choose something different. It's very, very powerful. And, uh, it can be confronting. Just like when I was realizing I have to create a global online community, I don't know how to do it. I have no idea if anybody will ever come to it. And yet I have to. I have to change my own pattern of being excited and offering things. But really, in the long run, just being by myself, I can't do this work by myself.

Speaker B: You're reminding me of a conversation I had recently with David Homan, who is the author of a book called Orchestrating Connection. It's all about the art of creating community. And he was talking about the. There are, um, specific things you have to do to make that community environment really work and really sing. Um, and it's not about each individual, it's about how they help each other. And like you say, you've got to let go of some things and come ready to work in that kind of way. All of those members of the community. So I think that that's really powerful. So we're talking a lot here about systems, about organizations, and about the role of a leader within the context of an organization. Um, and then I'm also thinking about, well, for the leader who's at the top of that organization, um, and they are setting a role model or setting a guide or setting a culture in a way that only they, in their own unique way can do. What do you see the CEO having to do that is distinct in order to create this culture where the leaders around them, uh, feel more in an environment where they need to think inclusion first? What's the role of the CEO in creating that dynamic?

Speaker A: It's funny you mentioned role model. I have to tell you a quick story. Um, what surprised me, uh, in my research, because in my research, I'm looking for things that prove or disprove my question or my theory. An unexpected surprise was two of the most senior leaders I interviewed for my research. And these were senior vice presidents, uh, very large remit. How they did not think of themselves as role models. Each of them had this idea, and they were in different parts of the business and they were thinking that, oh, being, uh, a role model means I have the right way to do something, and I'm telling you how to do it. And they demurred from that, even though they were, from the stories they were telling me. They were very, um, good at demonstrating the kind of behavior that you would like to see. And so I think the further up we get in the hierarchy, the, uh, less Curious we get about trying or being different, doing different things because we maybe we have a bit of a fixed mindset. You know, I got here because of who I am. I need to do more of that in order to be successful and I need to make sure other people are doing that as well. But, and if they're curious, if they're willing to be innovative, um, that's where they can be more clear. And they have to be vulnerable. Vulnerability, oh, that's tough in the workplace. You have to show up knowing that if you're vulnerable, uh, will people treat you in the same way or will they take advantage of you? That's tough. But it's doable. I know that there's enough leaders that are doing this work, um, but they're almost doing it in spite of the culture or the organization around them, as opposed to that is helping uplift them.

Speaker B: You're making me think of two high profile CEOs. Gary Rich, who is CEO of WD40 company and Hubert Jolie, who was CEO of Best Buy. Gary Rich said, uh, when he became CEO of a US public company for the first time, he had to go back to school because he said, I know how to do the thing that enabled me to get elected as the CEO, but I didn't know how to be a CEO. Uh, Anubai Jolie sat with his leadership team and said, I know that I need help, so I have a coach that helps me and I know that you all need help and so you should have a coach that helps you too. And I always remember those stories because I think that I don't hear that very often from top leaders. As you say that you can get into the habit of a fixed mindset and you can start to believe your own bio a little bit. Um, and yet for people like us, we might go, well, they'll be the most curious people, the people that are elevated into the top role. And I wonder whether they are able to be hugely curious but find themselves not actually being so curious or sometimes find themselves not feeling like they have the time to be curious. You and I will both work with senior leaders who will go, I'd really like to do that. But in the end, I was firefighting for 80 hours this week. And so my aspiration, my intent to be curious about these things got a bit over, overwhelmed. How do you help leaders think about making time for something that feels maybe in the day to day firefighting? There are so many other things that are critical. They've got to focus on it right now. Can this be a bit put on the back burner.

Speaker A: Yeah. I've been working a lot with teams about, uh, the idea of, again, a polarity of having to deal with something now, which is firefighting, which is a very common term, I think, worldwide. You say that everybody knows what you mean. And how do we shift that to fire prevention? How do we shift that? When I present that as an idea, would you be willing to explore that? They go, sure. How can I do that? For me, Gary, any skill or any new practice, um, it takes some commitment and some habit, but there's a discipline and rigor about that that you can do. Going back to this hero of mine, he had to put it in his diary. So if the, uh, leaders are all about goals. So, dear leader, let's figure out a goal or a way of getting to fire prevention. What would be one thing that you could do this week? What would be one step you could take? Here's the other thing. And I say this in my book. I think this is really important. Um, much like that call to action phrase that I used before, um, we've gotten in the habit at work of saying one big thing like, what's your big hairy, audacious goal? And there's nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, I find it can be very demotivating to people because it creates the conditions where you have to really, really, really stretch. And already you're thinking about, what if I fail? What if we shifted that to one sure thing? Just one sure thing you could do. And it's not glamorous, it's not sexy, it's not confronting. But that doesn't mean it's not important or it can't help you. And if you're trying to learn a new sport or a new language, um, one step at a time is going to still get you there.

Speaker B: So I love that. So for people who have read your book or people who are part of the community and we've talked about going from passive to active, what is one thing that you really like them to start to do differently once they've engaged with what you're writing and what you're saying?

Speaker A: So I can tell you a story about, um, one person. Just as an example, um, I was speaking about my book to a group of people, and, uh, there was a couple in the second row of the chairs they had set up. And I knew them a little bit. I didn't know them deeply. I read that story about my hidden hero at the beginning. This is just a nice introduction to the book. And as I finished the story and I thank people for coming, I could see the, the guy, the man staring at me really intently. So I kind of was. I walked over to him to say hello and he said, he almost yelled. He said, I was that guy. And I'm like, oh, okay. And then he told me a story about how he had this attitude about, um, uh, an athlete in a particular sport. And he was in a. It's a team sport. And he had this idea about how, how, um, other, other people should fit in to the sport. And then he realized, well, how exclusive he was being. And so he said, I realized that I needed to completely change. And now. And he's volunteering with a governing body and he's really pushing them to become more inclusive and more diverse. So it's that, uh, recognition and then that. What's that one thing that you can do differently or how do you even want to talk about this? What I realized is that this book is exactly what I hoped it would be. It's a connection point. People want to talk about their experience. They want to talk about when they've made a shift. It's a universal experience, I believe, to connect, but to also be contributing. I want to contribute, but I want to belong too. And that's where I'm starting to find people. And they want to tell the story. Sometimes they'll tell a story of not feeling included. Um, but that's the sharing. There's also a universal connection about being excluded. We could all tell stories about that. Um, and so once they realize the power of that, um, there's. There's this kind of recognition that's going back and almost going back to their own version of an unlock moment. And then what can they do from there?

Speaker B: Finding their clarity. I love it. How can people find out more about you and the work that you do?

Speaker A: Thank m you, Gary. Well, I do have my website. It's called inclusionable.com. uh, so that's a first place. What, um, I have there is a whole kind of grouping of things, like resources, uh, articles, other people's work there. I'm trying to connect people. So I'm also trying to make it like a community center, a clearinghouse. Um, I'm on LinkedIn as well. Christine Barnes. Uh, it's. I think I got. Must have gotten the first iteration of that name because that's where I am. Um, and more than anything else, I want to be in conversation with people. I want to be connected. I want to learn from, and I think people learn from each other, wanna be inspired by and continue to, uh, inspire other people as well. That's step one. Let's connect.

Speaker B: Fantastic. The Unlock Moment is that, uh, flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For Christine Barnes, it was a moment after writing her dissertation when she realized she wanted to go from passive to active, create a community, a gathering place about building inclusive workplaces. Check out her brilliant new book, Inclusionable. Transform, Lead and elevate your team's performance. And, uh, find out more@inclusionable.com Christine, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me today on the Unlock Moment.

Speaker A: Thank you, Gary. The pleasure has been mine as well.

Speaker B: You've been listening to the Unlock Moment with me, Dr. Gary Crotaz, conversations about those remarkable flashes of clarity that change everything. If this episode inspired you, follow the podcast now on Apple or Spotify and share it with someone who needs to hear it. And for more reflections on purpose and transformation, join my LinkedIn newsletter, also called the Unlock Moment. Thank you for being part of this journey. Until next time, keep searching for your own moments of clarity.