Why Most Marketers Will Struggle with AI (And How to Stay Ahead) | Tamara Rogers

Speaker A: I was chatting with our head of tech. One of the conversations we've been having is what does education look like in the future?

Speaker B: Now, today we've got none other than

Speaker C: renowned Tamara Rogers, who's the former chief marketing officer at Heylion.

Speaker B: How do you get really close to that consumer to do what you need to do?

Speaker A: I think this thought of consumers buy brands, they buy the products within brand. And how do you make sure you're picking up that ah, need and bringing it right into the very heart of the creation of the growth strategies you have?

Speaker C: So Tamara spent 25 years at Unilever, helped spin one of the world's biggest consumer health companies out of GSK and built a marketing function that put the consumer at the very heart of a $10 billion business.

Speaker D: What's made the difference in terms of your leadership challenges you as a leader.

Speaker A: Somebody who has incredibly clear vision about what you're setting out to try and achieve and an ability to what are

Speaker D: the good and the bad, the pros and the cons of being in a global marketing world?

Speaker A: So the pros of global are the amazing opportunity to just see how similar this world is, how similar consumer needs really are. Uh, the downside of it is you don't necessarily get so deep into things. So, you know, the depth of.

Speaker C: In this episode we get into the operating model transformation. She helped architect. Let's get into it.

Speaker D: Hey, Tamara. Fabulous to have you on the show.

Speaker A: Fantastic to be here. My first filmed podcast. So very excited.

Speaker D: There we go. We're very privileged and actually personally I'm feeling very privileged. I was with Sophie Devonshire this morning and she said, oh, we've got two of m our brand new marketing society fellows on together. So congratulations, Richie. And tomorrow you are the new incoming fellows.

Speaker B: Well, there we are. Well, we have to live up to it now.

Speaker A: I know we got. I'm looking forward to getting going.

Speaker D: Well, no pressure at all, but so let's dive in.

Speaker B: Um, I'm really intrigued. So we thought you talked about the, the org transformation as it were. What were some of the headwinds, what were some of the perhaps things that are happening in the macro that made you realize that it was time to shift gear, uh, in a different way from a marketing function sort of perspective.

Speaker A: Well, I think, I mean it's the cliche of change is a constant. Right. And I think, um, shifting and morphing and moving so that you can take, uh, the best advantage of what's happening in the external world is always the thing that drives and should drive, uh, the change for the business with obviously a very clear view on stakeholder value and shareholder value. But um, I think what we, so we're three and a half years old. So Halian is not a very old company. Um, sometimes it's fun to think of it as a sort of 10, 11 billion startup. Um, because we were an existing division of GSK and we spun out and listed on London Stock Exchange just over three and a half years ago. And so we think about life in chapters. Um, there was chapter pre spin, there was spin and stand up and creation of Halion. And now we're looking into our next chapter and I think the big opportunity is how do we get what I call frontline so the consumer even closer into the center and setting of strategy and direction. And so that's the kind of thought behind what we're trying to achieve here is how do we get really clear strategies that are category led but at the very heart of that it's actually about consumer led. And are we unearthing uh, the consumer unmet needs and are we driving growth as a result?

Speaker B: Wow, that sounds awfully exciting. I mean so without giving anything away too confidential, I mean how does that actually happen as a, as a modern day marketing function? How do you get really close to that consumer to, to you know, to do what you need to do?

Speaker A: Yeah, and obviously there isn't, there are a lot of things I can't share at this point because it is, we are at the beginning of that change journey. But I think this sort of um, consumers buy brands, they buy the products within brand and how do you make sure you're picking up that uh, need and bringing it right into the very heart of the creation of the growth strategies you have. So we're trying to think about how do we better bring all of the knowledge that are happening in the countries because let's face it, you know, the world of global is a fictitious world and um, consumers and people live in countries. And so how are we connecting better, um, what's happening for real and on the ground to what we uh, think about and how we design those growth plans. So trying to kind of close the gap between global and local if you like.

Speaker D: Wow. Uh, and perhaps pharma, well many industries do struggle with that customer, uh, centricism. Uh, there's so much more to talk about, Helion and so on. But for those who don't know it would be great to get a. You mentioned the year in the green room when you started. I won't do that because that's impolite the year you started, but from 19 or whenever it was, give us a bit of a potted history of your career journey.

Speaker A: Oh, wow. Gosh. Uh, so, um, actually it all started health because I wanted to be a doctor. Got, uh, myself run over, came around hospital and thought, oh yes, life is for living, it's quite short. So, uh, I had a complete change of heart because seven years of study at medical school sounded like a long time to a, uh, 17 year old.

Speaker D: Is this the gift, the silver lining of.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: Being run over?

Speaker A: I think so. It definitely, definitely changed my perspective on life and, or say a little bit more. Yeah, well, just, just more around. I really uh, had this sort of sense of what do I want to do that is both going to be fulfilling and exciting and interesting. So massive change of path and many. I mean I reflect back and think it could have been great to have been a doctor in seven years. You know, when you're, when you get to my age, seven years is like nothing flies by. But when you're 17, it's almost half your. So, um, so I took a year out and went traveling and in that came back. I love sport. Um, so I play, I played hockey. And it just happened that there was some, you know, serendipity in life. Um, there was a woman on my, uh, hockey team who said you'd be great in advertising. So I went and had an interview and joined a very, very small agency. And at the same time I did, um, the Unilever graduate recruitment sort of thing. Had a big, uh, board assessment, got into Unilever. And then I was like, oh, what I do now? Client side, agency side. And a very wise friend said, try client. You might be able to go back to agency. But it's really hard getting into client. So 25 years later I looked back on my Unilever career and uh, in those 25 years I tried to do as much breadth as possible. I think I've again this sort of pursuit of experiences and learning. So I did sales, I did cash management, predominantly marketing, and then a few big general manager roles, um, region president type roles. Uh, and then was not looking to leave Unilever. I mean, the number of experiences you can have in a company like Unilever are immense. So you're always on a new learning journey. Um, but somebody from GSK started to sort of develop a relationship with me. Very smart actually, because, uh, we were talking about philosophies of change and change management and leadership. And then one day she said, we actually have a Role we'd love to talk to you about here at gsk. Um, and it sounded amazing. So I made the leap across from personal uh, care. I knew I was in personal care, made um, the leap across into healthcare, uh, as part of gsk. And within two years we were um, doing a uh, joint venture with Pfizer and then a spinoff out of GSK to create Halion. And that was again that was more of a general management and then into Chief Marketing Officer. We created the Chief Marketing Officer role and I moved into that and as uh, as Chief Marketing officer did that creation of hen. So that's the potted history.

Speaker B: Amazing. Incredible. I mean you got to tell us a bit more about Helion and perhaps the rationale for the spinoff from GSK and why that happened and what that meant for the organization.

Speaker A: Um, so I didn't sit in the rooms of strategy. Um, uh, so Emma, uh, Walmsley, CEO of uh, gsk, absolutely phenomenal, uh, uh, individual and obviously great leader and ah, the leadership team and the board of GSK decided it was the right thing to do to spin off Helion. And I think in, you know, in the plan it is all about focus for business. And I think GSK wanted to focus on their pharma and vaccines portfolio. And uh, I think also saw some limitations that we were putting on ourselves as the consumer business. So in standing up um, as a, as a separate entity, all of a sudden things like your capital investment, your strategy, your growth plans, you can now set that agenda. So there was always this belief that there was trapped capacity in terms of upside of growth. Um, so unlocking that um, potential was uh, really the idea behind the, the spin off and the creation of, of Halion.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker D: So within Halion there's this notion of better everyday health with humanity. Sounds amazing. Nothing to argue with there. Practically on the ground. How did that translate?

Speaker A: So that was a really exciting, uh, exciting moment, um, and obviously had a big hand in creating that purpose. And it came from uh, you know I came from Unilever. I stood in front of the shelf looking at the offerings that you get in healthcare and it was unbelievably hard to navigate. So you're not feeling very well and you're trying to figure out what solution is going to help me here. And for something that, I mean nothing matters more than your health. So something that is so personal, it felt so cold and clinical and science only. And so as a brand marketer it just felt this is a massive opportunity to bring the care that exists in the world healthcare and actually bring it into the brands. And so this thought of well we're everyday health, we're not hospital health, we're not vaccines and pharma, you know, we are everyday health. So how do we get better everyday health but how do you do it with care? So it's with humanity which is with the care that it deserves. Um, and obviously we have an ambition to drive uh, penetration and be, you know for, for humanity but it is about the, with so it was bringing in that care and how that, you know, how we pulled that then into the marketing at Halion is we started to think about health inclusivity. You know there's plenty of people who feel like they're excluded from health and actually health inclusivity is a growth strategy, it's a penetration strategy, bringing more people in to be able to take care of themselves because that's what um, everyday health is. It's you know, you're, you go to a pharmacist, you might get some advice but you're buying products for yourself, you're not getting a prescription for them. And so helping people know what issue they face and then be able to treat themselves. And then how do you do that in a marketing and brand use health literacy, health education to help people understand this is the product for me and then drive that conversion to purchase. So it really infused a lot of how we did marketing around how do you show up with inclusivity?

Speaker C: Today's program is brought to you by two fantastic organizations. First up is Studio Space, a uh, leading on demand marketing agency platform. Studio Space gives marketers complete control over their projects from matching the right agency to your brief to managing contracts and invoicing and even tracking all of your spend data all in the one place. They take care of everything and it's totally hassle free. They even guarantee the work. So check out Studio Space today. Our uh, second sponsor is the Marketing Skills Trust. A uh, charity with a mission to make marketing a better place for everyone. They provide grants to help create a more equitable industry and support initiatives that really do drive diversity, inclusion and create opportunity. The Trust has been instrumental in leveling up the marketing skills across the board

Speaker B: and do take a look at their

Speaker C: website for more information. Now let's get on with the show.

Speaker D: The thing I love about that is often purpose sits in the ethan somewhere and it's quite motivating but abstract and divorced as opposed to, as you said it's, it's a strategic unlock. Yes, um, for growth, any sort of nuggets or examples of some things that pre, pre that mission or purpose you were doing, that you stopped doing all that you started doing, just so that really flowed through into tangibles.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think we're still on this journey. Um, so, so we talk about being consumer first always. And it's fascinating because it's such an easy concept if you're in brand marketing. Um, and it's often partners that have said to us, you don't quite feel all the way to a CPG yet. Um, but actually I think we're well on the way now in that journey. And I think it is about um, almost every conversation that you have, every decision that you make, you're making through the lens of if the consumer were in the room, would they vote for this? Um, and are we doing something that is going to have an impact on quality of life and better outcomes? Um, and then I think it is about how do you make your communications accessible and interesting. So one of the campaigns that I think is a really fun one that we've done and it's been fascinating as you take it to different countries of the world in terms of cultural, uh, resonance. But, um, we talk a lot to uh, healthcare professionals. We talk to dentists. When you sit in the dentist chair and you open your mouth, they can tell an awful lot about you and your health. Um, and uh, the, you know, the state of you're grinding your teeth, whether you are, ah, um, sufficiently flossing. Because gum health actually is the most critical thing. It's the thing that holds onto your teeth. So of course you want to look after your gums. Um, but it was very interesting for the dentures business. And the idea then formed obviously with a combination of that insight from talking to dentists, talking to our, our advertising agencies. And this idea emerged around if your mouth could talk, what would it tell you? And so you ended up with a very highly engaging, uh, sort of communications device really, which was where somebody's mouth gets taken over and it becomes an independent voice. Um, uh, telling the, you know, the, the individual what they need to do differently and better. And you can really play with that idea. So it's, you could use a lot of technology to sort of morph the lift. Lift, sorry, the mouth and lips shape in order that it's a completely different voice, comes out very playful, um, how extreme and exaggerated you can be in the UK and the us you can be very playful. We found as we've gone to markets and we've been testing this in Japan, a little more subtleties needed. But you can't lose the, the idea of, you know, your mouth is now telling you what to do. Um, and I think that's, that's a great example of how, you know, how can you bring a little bit more thoughtfulness and care into how you do your communication so that they are interesting and people watch it and then they learn something. It's sort of like, um, the Trojan horse of how can you do healthcare education? Which could be quite boring in interesting and playful ways.

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, that's a nice creative idea. And in the context you're heavily regulated, you know, it's really so, you know, risk compliance, never far away. So how do you get that balance right culturally within the team to explore creativity and so on. But, but not doing anything that gets anyone in trouble.

Speaker A: I mean, that is at the very heart of, uh, when you have excellent marketers in this sector. And, you know, I'm one of them. I came from, you know, um, the whole area of, uh, personal care and deodorants and skin care, hair care, um, and you come in with all these great ideas and then you bump into the nomen. Yeah, abominable nomen. Um, and, you know, so you hit the regulatory environment. And what you learn very quickly if you're smart is if you can involve your. It's a bit like, you know, illegal. If you involve those teams upfront and you're really clear about this is the compelling, interesting area for the consumer. How can I, rather than develop something all the way down and then you bump the gnome in. Um, so it is about working really closely from the very beginning with, with your regulatory teams and, and seeing regulatory as actually, if you get it right, it's a real business growth driver. And if you can think of ways, um, that are enabling you to do the very thing the consumer needs, then that's a massive unlock. And regulatory is there for a very, very good reason, you know, because many of our products, they are drugs.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, one of the things that's fascinating when you come out of a, I don't know, probably something like a Coca Cola or a, you know, consumption. People talk about consumption when you come into healthcare. You can't drive consumption. You can't tell people to take more Panadol than they should because actually that's not safe. So it's very interesting in terms of the tactics you have in healthcare for driving growth. And, uh, regulatory is really important. Nothing matters more than trust in health. And so being on the right side of regulatory is actually really, really important part of building trust because you're doing the right thing, uh, for the consumer.

Speaker B: Mario, this is a fascinating conversation and I love the nuances that you're bringing up between different industries and how actually the applicability in healthcare versus the nuances, uh, particularly in the regulatory space. In fact, as you were describing as you were walking into GSK and you said, well from a Unilever lens, I stood by the shelf and I had a look at the different products as they were. I often do that when I go into my local booths and have a look at all the different meds around. And of course the clear contrast is those versus say more white labeled based products, um, on the shelves, particularly when it comes to things like pain care, Panadol and the like. And I wonder, I mean, is there, and how do you guys sort of view the brand book, the playbook as it were, to both compete with a, you know, a white label sort of product. But as you described it when you were looking at the shelf, very undifferentiated. And I wonder if there's any other beyond sort of the regulatory elements that you described, Anything that's sort of different or nuanced versus when say looking at an FMCG lens that perhaps a bit more novel or insightful that we could learn from about, um, how do you do a brand playbook in this environment?

Speaker A: Yeah, I actually don't think there's a huge difference and I think that is the opportunity. Um, so if you think about, I mean panel used to mention Pandora, Panadol is a wonderful brand. And when I started, uh, I always want to go back and have a look at what is the content the consumer's seen over the years. What, you know, what is. There's what we as marketers think our brands are and then there's what's actually in the minds of the consumer. And uh, the team shared an ad with me which was just. And it was an ad, an old school TV ad. I think it was about 60 seconds long. I was like, God, when we get to the end of it. But it was a beautiful ad, um, of a mother elephant and a baby elephant. And the whole voiceover was about being tough but gentle. So gentle enough for uh, for a little baby as it is for an adult. And Panadol, the suitability um, of Panadol means that I think it's 98% of the world's population can take Panadol, um, diabetics can take Panadol. So there are other active ingredients that you can't take. Uh, if you have certain conditions and it is a beautiful brand that has always stood for gentle but tough. And the brand book and how, you know, the branding devices look, the kind of iconic assets, the visual. We used to call visual brand language, we now talk about it as holistic brand language because we're in the world of movement rather than just static. And so how you experience a brand you need to think about is exactly the same as cpg. You get some limitations, um, because you, in some countries in the world you need to put a lot of content on the front of pack which is quite, you know, when you listen to an insurance ad and they have that, that kind of fast bit at the end with all the kind of, you know, messages that need to be given, it's kind of the same. So some of the messages need to be on the front of pack. Um, and, and so how you design your pack design so that, that is there legible and clear. But you also have your, your brand is recognizable from the, you know, the classic, you know, five feet away at the, at the shelf and then in the hand. So, um, I think there's a big opportunity to do more of that, more iconic uh, properties in your visual design. Um, and I actually don't think it is too different, but for some reason the industry has thought it is and have almost um, put too much information on the front, um, you know, in the need to tell everything. Wow.

Speaker B: It's funny because what I recall out of this is that um, the classic Rory Sutherland sort of talk where he says, you know, one of the most synonymous brands in the world, of course being Coca Cola and it's actually drunk by sort of every person in the world and so on and so forth. No matter what your demographics look like, socioeconomic backgrounds look like, well, everyone can pick up a can of Coke and, and you've just reminded me of, I mean there's, there's so few brands in the world where actually it's a for all sort of audience.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, and I wonder how that sort of changes your perspective on how do you go about in a go to market way when actually your brand can be so synonymous. I mean, does segmentation actually work in that environment or how are you thinking about it?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean we definitely do segmentation. Um, and for us there are opportunities, often healthcare, ah, conditions and issues emerge as you age. So, you know, we definitely over index with an older population and some of our brands over index. So volterol here, it's called Voltaren around the world, um, is often used for Osteoarthritis and joint pain. Um, but it's also incredibly useful. And we've more recently kind of expanded our targeting approach to people who do sports, um, young parents and you're bending over and picking up a child and you hurt your back. So in some countries of the world, it, the product is only indicated for osteoarthritis, which is a very local regulatory approach. In other countries of the world, it's all about muscle pain. And so we have thought quite thoughtfully about how can we expand our segmentation, how can we make this product relevant to more people? Because, um, even talking with physiotherapists, volterol is unbelievably good because it gets right, it's a topical, so you're putting it right on the source of the pain and it penetrates down through your skin and down into muscles and joints. And then you've got sort of a, uh, reservoir, if you like, of pain relief that can really, it makes a massive difference. Um, and uh, it can, you know, it often takes a few days to start working. So some people try it and then, you know, put it down and don't use it. But if you're, if your pharmacist or your physiotherapist has really understood it, they'll, they'll say no, you need to persist. It's unbelievable pain relief. So, uh, and it's not going systemically all the way through your body. So, you know, a lot of segmentation actually is around, um, people who are comfortable with treating themselves. Some people want natural remedies. So you're understanding sort of attitudes almost more than anything else around. You know, how, how somebody can, uh, we call it self care. How do people better take care of themselves? Yeah, no, segmentation is definitely, uh, is definitely relevant, but we look at health condition, attitude and, and age.

Speaker B: So, so it's um, it's, it's segmentation but then into positioning in fact, about how you then talk about it differently and it actually um, targets different ailments and different sort of conditions. I get that.

Speaker D: When you, now you talk about pain, you reminded me of the Dun Aerial.

Speaker B: Oh gosh, yes.

Speaker D: Um, that's an aside, just an observation on the point about the T's and C stuff. So I worked in insurance. You know the disclaimers.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Every time you're going to justify it, are you?

Speaker D: No, no, not at all.

Speaker A: I'm just going to say that just fills our pain.

Speaker D: Whenever you go to the US and like you have these 90 second ads and the first 30 seconds is the benefit and the next 60 seconds is, it's going to kill you. It's going to do this, it's going to do anyway. That's, that's, that's for that very different market. But, but of course he is, is very broad. Oral health?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker D: Wellness?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker D: Pain relief. So as the lead marketer, how do you, I suppose, sort of consistency, standards, best practice, capability and I guess you probably learned a lot from Unilever. But how did, how did you do that?

Speaker A: Yeah, in fact, when I first joined, one of the big questions I had was, um, how standardized can we be? How different are the growth models by category? Um, and I think what I loved about that was sometimes I think as marketers we forget to go back to some basics. So frequency of purchase, you're buying your toothpaste every couple of months, your daily use, twice a day. Pain relief. M is much more episodic if you, uh, don't have a chronic condition, so you take it if you get a headache or you've got a muscle sprain or you might be living. So I think something like 90% of the world's population suffer from pain. Some of, some people suffer chronically, so it's an everyday issue, but some people, it's every now and then, then you've got seasonal categories like cough, cold, flu, and so you might only purchase it once a year. And what's fascinating is you, you know, you came in, I came into this world and, um, not all of the providers that I would have had in the past, the Nielsens, the Iris, will necessarily buy the data because the business model might not be there for them because the frequency of purchase is not necessary there. So you've got to think about, you know, what data do I have to. At my fingertips. Um, but also your business model, you know, do you advertise respiratory health, cough, cold and flu all the way around the year? Or do you only do it in season? Do you start priming ahead of season? And you know, we had some fantastic early, um, search tools that we could see incidents starting to bubble and then, you know, you switch your media on. Um, but, uh, you know, rather than wait till it's actually in full, full, full burst, you know, the kind of people suffering from cold and flu. So there are definitely different business models and growth models. But I fundamentally believe, um, that, you know, marketing is marketing being single minded, being clear, you know, doing great communications. It is transferable across. And we've just, um, began at the end of last year and taking it everywhere across the business um, something we call the Halian brand building way, um, which is something I'm incredibly proud of. The team who've done it are amazing because they went out to all of the marketers across the world. It wasn't a sort of you know, ivory tower creation and got all the case studies from around the world around what's worked, what's what, you know, what hasn't, what has worked, what can we take the best from FMCG and then the best from consumer health marketing? Um so now we start and if there's, and so I'm trying to kind of land with the teams right now is you should always start with what do we already what does Helen know about this? And go into all the kind of this rich resources to say okay well if I'm going to uh, drive um, if this is my barrier and this is the opportunity, what do I know about how to overcome that? And it's, it's a, it's a framework of um, tools and processes as well as all this best practice but it takes the best of FMCG marketing and adds what we know that is special about consumer health marketing.

Speaker B: It sounds very much like custom GPT is, is going to be at play here soon.

Speaker A: We have a, we have our own sort of large language model called right which is hilarious because everyone's like oh it's rubbish. I'm like yeah we need to keep using it you know because you do have to keep building it. Um, and so uh, putting that across m more of the content we've got is only going to make it better.

Speaker B: I'm going to say I'm m going to ask so when I think about what you've described there about frequency it feels very Byron Shop m in the methodology of how it sort of comes together. Um, and I wonder, I mean um, is there a sort of ah, a philosophy that you subscribe to? I mean is it more about penetration? Is it more about sort of how do you get loyalty and engagement in your category that you've seen? I mean how does that sort of work? What's the dynamics that sit around it?

Speaker A: Yeah, the reason I'm smiling as you speak is these again were the questions I asked as I came in and I think reflecting back on gosh, I don't know how many years of working in marketing and commercial so many things that you know to be true remain true. So I think the Byron Sharp model penetration and re, uh, winning your consumer back is the best way to think about building I think fast moving consumer Goods and health products, um, and brands. And um, loyalty comes from um, being in a repertoire of trusted brands. Um, and in terms of, we use Kantos so kind of demand power. We tend to be the number one or number two in each of our categories. Uh, and that is incredibly important for re winning penetration. But I always talk to my teams about don't assume that your penetration base is constant because there's competition out there and they're doing good jobs most of the time too. And so I think the Byron Sharp model is really key. But the other one that I think is critical and as we face into a world now that is more fragmented, more social, um, more influencer, uh, you know how we think about building memory structures, you know that what you would have called the long and the short is really important to think about, particularly if you're a big brand or a little brand and sort of, how do you, how do you get that mix right? Um, so it's critical to have those memory structures built because um, there's so it is so much harder to reach the consumer and influence them today.

Speaker B: And you talk about memory structures, I mean clearly we, you know, we can go into the whole world of distinct brand assets and the like.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But in the world of an influencer based world where in some respects, I mean I think influencers are fairly fickle in the sense that they can go from one jump to the next brand and actually be managing multiple brands at one time and, and endorsing different ones. I mean how do you see the whole memorability, memory structure building in an influencer world?

Speaker A: M. Honestly I think this is, this is ah, an exciting new space in terms of how to think about it because I think it is more important than ever this lack of trust in that channel, if you like, if you can think about influenza as a channel is something that really worries me because trust matters more than anything in health. You're not going to put something in your body that is a drug if you do not trust it. And in fact some of the issues we have around the world is there's plenty of counterfeit, which is really frightening because counterfeit, you know, pain relief could be life threatening. So knowing what is true real, um, is critical in healthcare. And so as we think about what we do with influencers, it really matters that we're working with the right kind of influencers. And obviously we start with healthcare, you start with healthcare professionals. So they are reputable, authoritative. But where um, trust is developing with younger age groups is different and they don't necessarily trust healthcare professionals partly cause they're finding it hard to get access to them. So we do have to find new ways of building that authenticity and authority. So I don't think we would go to sort of a normal bunch of influencers who are changing their brand every five minutes. We have to be really careful in vetting who the right people are. And then the whole area of regs comes in in terms of some products can't be talked about by anyone other than a qualified healthcare professional. So we're a bit more limited in what we can do, um, which is great, but it doesn't mean that everybody um, is following um, those sorts of standards. So it's the wild west out there and making sure that our brands stay in the right and safe spaces for them to be is really important.

Speaker D: Let's zoom in on high performance and what's your in a nutshell, maybe the capabilities, the characteristics of a high performing marketing team.

Speaker A: Um, for me it's critical thinking and I see less and less of it. I think people are, we're so busy, we're racing to do things. It's almost um, and this is one of the shifts we're trying to make in our helium brand building way is we had used to have templates. They were like, that's a nice kind of clear, easy way to fill something in. And you have a consistency across the organization. People can all look at a brand growth plan. But actually templates meant that it was almost books ticking. So people were filling stuff in without really thinking. So now we have questions that need to be answered. So you have to think. Um, so I think the art of critical thinking and I think marketers, the very best marketers, have huge curiosity. They ask kind of why, why, why and then dig deep to understand and discover. And then they uh, apply the critical thinking along with a big dose of what is actually happening in the world. What's happening culturally? How do I almost like clash culture and human behavior with the kind of critical thinking of what I'm trying to achieve and how I can set about doing it? So it's back to that kind of classic job to be done language, you know, what do they think and feel now? What do I need to think and feel differently? And what, what's my barrier and how am I going to overcome it? So I think the art of great marketing is really good quality thinking up front. So I love that you mentioned Rory, because there's nothing like a great planner. And I think a lot of our agencies have lost great planners. But they were provocative thinkers that would bring that world of creative and the world of client brief and objective and growth challenge and solve those things together.

Speaker B: Um, there's a bit of a worry here, really, when you think about it, because the will of AI, of course, is upon us and everyone today will be using some form of LLM, um, Ask Alien and the like. And therefore it almost feels like the process of your own critical thinking. Perhaps your ability to judge, um, an output might well be relevant, but in the main, you are thinking less about the nuances of everything and how it kind of comes together. And I think that's quite worrying because especially when I think about the next generation of marketers coming through who are going to use these tools natively. How do they form judgment about what good marketing does look like if they're continually just taking things at face value?

Speaker A: I think you've nailed it. It is the thing that worries me the most. In fact, um, I was chatting with our head of tech and one of the conversations we've been having is what does education look like in the future? Um, because actually, I think helping people develop a critical mindset and challenging what is in front of you is going to become so important because, let's face it, what gets generated by, um, AI and generative AI looks so good. And so it's, um, that lovely thing of if you hand draw something and, and photograph it and put it on a screen, people know it's a draft and they're almost invited to contribute. If you make it a beautiful PowerPoint version, it looks finished and people challenge it less. They don't. There's less to build. And so this, everything looking finished and right and, you know, sentences and all laid out beautifully, um, it's seductive that it actually is right? And I think that challenge, and I learned this, you know, in the early days of being a brand marketer. What is the objective you're setting out to do? What is the objective in your brief? And are you really clear what you're trying to achieve? And then when the work came back, is it delivering against the objective because you can fall in love with the idea and, uh, how many campaigns I bought because I just love them, but did they really deliver against the original objective? And so, Chris, this, this thought about critical thinking is, is so important to me. Um, and it is what we tried to do with the Hayden brand building way, but it, but I think it goes right back into education and cultures in different countries and, you know, how can we make sure that we have

Speaker D: that critical eye, you Talked about maybe having a doctor. I guess doctors have to have extreme critical thinking, so I can see the genesis there. But, um, you mentioned Emma Walmsley, if I get the name right, and you said she's a great leader. And so I wanted to just tilt a little bit towards that. I mean, maybe shout out to Emma why she was a great leader. But also. No, I'm more interested in what your perspectives on what's made the difference in terms of your leadership challenges you as a leader.

Speaker A: Somebody who has incredibly clear, um, vision about what you're setting out to try and achieve and an ability to develop enthusiasm in others for that vision because it is the aligning force that we have. Um, you know, you don't, you don't. You know, you can go further if everybody is aligned in what you're trying to achieve. And human beings have their own thoughts, feelings and desires and ambitions. And so it has to be a winning of, uh, the hearts and minds in order to get that alignment. So I think for the first and most important thing is vision. And then, I mean, I personally have a view about, um, how, how you spot capability in people and how you can build and make that flourish. Because, you know, I have achieved the greatest things when I've had people who are way better than me working for me. And then it's about, how can you unleash them? And, uh, there's a coach, I never can remember his name, but he's a Canadian sports coach. And he said the concept of treating people fairly is to treat them differently. So really understanding the different capability that you have around you, and then how can you get the very best out of, um, the individuals, and they might, you might have somebody who's way more competent and capable than another, but how are you getting the best out of, out of um, what their different delivery is going to be? So I, if as much as I can, I try and be really clear about what we're trying to achieve and then give people the space to do it. And it's interesting because as I'm reflecting about, you know, what I want my next chapter to be, I don't want to put too much definition on it because I want to be open to things that are quite different from what I've maybe done before. But I am starting to write down some of the ingredients of what, what needs to be in place for me to be at my best and for me to love what I'm doing. And um, there's. For me, it's a big thing about people, um, and I have had the most amazing time when I've had a few almost not rebels or mavericks, but a few people who are a bit different around. And um, what leaders who are a little bit different do is they create the art of the possible. Because you can break a rule, you can try something because it's worth having a go. And when that tone is set and that culture's there, I think that's where innovation comes because people can think about doing things differently. So I've had my most fun and probably achieved my most when I've been in an environment where you've got a few unusual mavericks and, and I, I see less of them in the world today. I think we need a few more, A few more playful, playful, uh, testers and experimenters.

Speaker D: So you talked about people with a little bit different of difference as one of the ingredients. And. Okay, I get you don't want to put a framework around what you're going to do next.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker D: What are some of the other ingredients you'd be looking for?

Speaker A: Oh, maybe revealing my list, um, which is only just. I mean this is all very new news. So my list, of course my list is at the beginning. Um, what else? I think the. This is something I think I've always done and it's becoming more and more important is, um, having whether it's different functions different. Um, uh, in a way it's diversity. But, uh, it's almost impossible to do something now without having like. I can't do what I want to do in marketing without a tech partner. I mean, 10 years ago I'd have said R and D first. I also would say R and D now. But most tech comes first, the R and D, um, uh, some of my agency partners. So the interconnectedness of the disciplines and skills and capabilities that you need now in order to have an outcome is so much more complicated. We used to be able to work in our silos quite happily probably to do with pace of change. We could then bring things together and knit them together later. But now a bit like I said earlier with the, you know, have your regs team in from the beginning, you kind of need everybody in from the beginning. So how on earth can you organize so many different disciplines, ways of thinking and get everybody working in a joined up, synchronized way. So there's something about having having people who bring their unique little thing mojo, but then with the right mindset that they want to collaborate and work together.

Speaker B: It's really interesting. And this whole theme feels very much like it's the changing nature and transformative nature of how these things are evolving and roles are evolving. And as you've seen it through the years, uh, you would have also seen the changing nature of the CMO role and the skill sets that are required to be effective in that role. And I wonder if you have a purview as to where you see or the type of skills you see are going to be critically important for a CMO moving forward. What's your perspective on that?

Speaker A: So I think CMOs have always been helped play a role to think with a big picture, to think about a longer term and to think about change and transformation. Marketing. Marketing is first of all about growth. Um, but it is also about, you know, that old saying of, you know, what you're doing today is not going to get you where you need to go differently tomorrow. And I think marketing has been very good at identifying what needs to be done differently. So I think we're naturally change agents that continues. Um, so I think we need to continue being change agents and recognizing what needs to change and what needs to stay the same. Because as human beings, people do need to be able to hold on something. Um, but, and then the art of communication. So being able to express a concept, express an idea, make it tangible so others can imagine it. So change in communication, I think have always been there. Um, but I think the other, not just a catalyst for change. I think the biggest skill for leaders, and it's not just marketing, but particularly marketing, is change management. So if we think about the amount of technology and new things coming down our way, as humans, we're naturally kind of cavemen. Anything that is new is quite frightening. So put your head back in the cave and maybe it'll go away. Whereas it is now the thing that can keep you safe is to evolve and to change. And so how can you get people comfortable with a new thing, a new tool, a new way of doing things? And how can you, um, enable them to go on that change journey faster and get more comfortable with change? It's sort of where we started at the beginning with all design changes coming all the time. If it's part of how you do things.

Speaker B: I hear you on that. But I think the, and I think the organ design thing is critical to this because I often find that marketers and actually quite, you know, people around the organization may well be receptive given the macro that everyone sees in around them. But it feels like when you get, when you get to the nomen, as you called them before, that bureaucracy that hits you, um, and the tech agendas and you know, the um, the big lists of suppliers and procurement and things like that. And I wonder, even for large organizations isn't there a future where we need to be more nimble and agile and flexible and being able to test and learn and try new things out and if they don't work, fine and move on? But how does that happen um, in and around these big organizations beyond just a people mindset?

Speaker A: I think it's really challenging for big organizations. Um, I do think this receptivity to change and making the unknown not so scary is a big part of the CMO role. And I think how you do that um, with experimentation, ah, is um, an accelerator in many ways. So if you can get a small group of people experimenting uh, and trying something and other people get to see that that's an okay thing to do. And the more of them that you can have happening, the better in a big organization because it is the only way um, that you can visibly demonstrate that it's valued around here. And then the classic thing of they're going to fail, they're not all going to work. So um, finding how you then extract the learning and share the learning so that people don't feel because they're very well to go. Failure is a gift, but you don't want to. It's not very motivating if you, something you really put your heart into doesn't work. So that's the other side of failure. But if you know you've got some value from I learned this and I'm going to reapply it the next time, then you don't, you've got, you can take something really positive from it. So I do think for big organizations you need lots of little experiments um, and then figure out which ones you're going to pour the fuel on.

Speaker D: Um, we've probably only got a couple of questions left so I definitely want to squeeze in the global thing. You've had, you've had a global career and many people junior in their marketing careers or maybe even in the middle probably think oh that's, that's the goal. The glamour, the global and the so on. What are the good and the bad, the pros and the cons of being in a global marketing role?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, well first of all I am definitely feeling some real shifts in interest in and um, almost desire, mobility wise. So I don't know if it's just a reflection of the way we are in the world at the moment where it doesn't feel like the safest place does it the planet. Um, and so people's comfort with uprooting and moving is really different from when I first started, um, my career. Um, yet international companies really need people who have moved. Because when you live and work in another country, your perspective does change. Actually. You learn a lot about where you're from as much as where you've gone to, because suddenly the contrast is kind of thrown up in your face. But you do need people who've walked in other people's shoes. The speed of that, you know, when I said the sort of getting all the magic ingredients together and the mindset to collaborate is it's just so much greater when you have sat in different seats, whether they're global seats or whether they're different functional seats. So I do think for international businesses it's really important to develop global talent. Um, so the pros of global are, ah, the amazing opportunity to just see how similar this world is, how similar consumer needs really are. There was somebody who'd moved from a local role into a global role and she said to me, oh my goodness, now I look back on myself and all the arguments I made about why I'm so, why I was different and needed something different. And now I'm sitting here and I can see I really didn't. I mean that penny drop is so valuable for a business. So you do see commonalities, but you also do see where the cultural differences are and what differences really do matter. Um, and you have, I mean, it's life enriching to have. I mean I have been so blessed with being able to go and visit and work in many countries. Um, the downside of it is you don't necessarily get so deep into things. Um, so, you know, the depth of. It's probably been a long time since I've looked at a marketing plan and had to put together, you know, a channel plan and work out my reach and frequency or, you know, that sort of, you know, that real depth of. I know exactly how to do the segmentation for my country, exactly how I'm going to build a media plan, where I'm going to get my ROIs. You live in. The granularity of marketing is massively different from what it used to be. I mean it genuinely is a science and an art and the intention to detail is utterly different. The data, digital competence. So you're not deeply in the weeds of those things, which is a huge learning opportunity and you're trying to kind of enable that, uh, in a global seat. So it's an altitude and perspective Difference.

Speaker B: I love that. And some great perspective right there. So the last question is perhaps just honing in a little bit on what you just said there, which is you get elevated to a point and you lose the depth and now you have an opportunity to lift your head up again. And, uh, I'd just like to kind of hear about how you think you're going to stay current, um, across our industry.

Speaker A: Brilliant question. I'm sure the marketing society has lots of things I can tap into. Um, I have always gained my inspiration by getting outside. Um, I worked in deodorants a while ago in Unilever, and we used to talk a lot about outside in, um, and so I really want to find ways of immersing myself in other initiatives. In fact, I was chatting to a coach this morning who was really helpful because she said, and I'm going to not name this. I'm not going to come up with, um, uh, the name of the device, but it's a, um quadrant where you work out, what do you know only you know about you. What, uh, does somebody else, what do they know about you that you don't know? Um, what do you both know about you? And then the other box, which is the really interesting one, is what do you not know and what do others not know about you? And she said, you know, that is the learning space. And if you can have an experience that is completely different from what you've ever done before, you will learn even more about what you love and what you don't love doing. So I want to find some things that would take me completely out of my comfort zone so I learn more about what is it that makes me tick.

Speaker B: Oh, Marvel. So excited to see what's about to happen in the next few months for you. I'm sure you're going to go on some great adventures.

Speaker A: Next few months, I'm going to have a break. I'm going to have some travel and some fun.

Speaker B: Amazing. Look, it's been a delight having you on. Thank you for sharing your insights.

Speaker A: Absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Speaker D: Thank you, thank you.