The Future of B2B Marketing, AI & Growth | Elly Sherwin, CMO of Fundament

Elly Sherwin: How can marketing play that role in driving predictable growth? How to really understand where the demand comes from, how we can think about making the selling part easier for uh, all of our partners within the business, whether that's product sales, distribution, et cetera.

Host: Today we're joined by Ellie Sherwin, Chief marketing officer of Fundment.

Co-host: What made you jump from mega, mega corporate back into scale up territory?

Elly Sherwin: I really wanted to get back into build mode and that's where I get my energy from the scale, the pace, working really closely with the CEO and a founder, uh, to build something meaningful and rolling up my sleeves again.

Host: Ellie's a marketing leader who's navigated everything from high growth scale ups to literally one of the most dramatic moments in modern banking history.

Elly Sherwin: It can be lonely as we know being a CMO or being ah, a leader and having those people around you that you can talk to, that you can call on, that you can get advice from.

Host: And we're going to Explore how modern B2B marketing is evolving through speed, precision, community and customer empathy.

Elly Sherwin: Clients were facing so much uncertainty. Employees were really carrying that emotional as well as operational load for clients. And what was really important was strong communication both externally as well as internally.

Host: And this is a fascinating conversation about growth, leadership and staying human in moments of huge change. Let's jump in.

Co-host: Ellie, it's amazing to have you on the show. Welcome.

Elly Sherwin: Thank you. It's fantastic to be here today.

Co-host: Oh no, the pleasure's all ours.

Host: My goodness, the financial planning market must be crazy times because isn't it like a massive, massive unmet need? People just aren't ready for their future, for their future financial futures.

Elly Sherwin: Yeah, massive unmet need. I'm absolutely loving learning about this industry. Um, and you know, financial planners have high fiduciary responsibility so, so ensuring that they've got a platform that they can really depend on, um, that's reliable, that's um, stable for them, but also enabling them to move really, really quickly. Um, we know through all the other types of marketing that we do and hyper personalization that um, you know, we expect things to work and we expect them to work quickly and the same is true of the advice industry. But it's um, it's somewhere along that continuum of, of improving and making sure that things are done in a quick way with really high quality service and support, which is what we do and where we saw the gap in the market.

Host: Brilliant. Well, we will go deeper into fundament but I'd like to rewind and just find out how you got started in marketing. What was the point of origination, how you got to where you were to where you are.

Elly Sherwin: So it wasn't a deliberate move. But I thank my lucky stars that I've ended up, I have today. And I've always been interested in um, meaning making and was always the kid, uh, at school and with my family and they still take the mickey out of me for it now. But saying what does that mean? Or where's that come from? What, you know, what's the, what's the thinking with that idea? And I've always been interested then in translating that and how you use culture and context to make things relevant and land with an audience. And so I think that's probably what, what got me into doing languages at university. Um, and I was interested in them becoming a translator, but actually I landed while I was saving for a master's in a consumer tech PR agency and, and I loved it and that's where I stayed. And I understood more around messaging and positioning in that translation and how you can then make brands resonate locally as well as globally. And that's I suppose been then ended up being kind of the story of my career, especially within the innovation space, but really fascinated by that now I'm as well as being a cmo, a proud mom to uh, two young girls and again just that level of curiosity and the questions that they ask back to that trying to make sense and meaning of things, it just, it really, really interests me.

Co-host: And not to mention as part of your career path and journey, you spent 15 years at Silicon Valley Bank, a major part of your career and growth. So from head of marketing up to marketing director to a global role. Um, so tell us a bit about that experience with Silicon Valley.

Elly Sherwin: Silicon Valley bank was amazing. I absolutely loved that experience. Um, again a little bit of serendipity with how I landed there through an agency that I was working for at the time and svb was like 15 people strong in the UK and Europe. Um, I ended up kind of going in house supposedly for six months, but then ended up staying there as you said, for the best part of 15 years and really growing my career there and obviously expanding across multiple markets, spending a lot of time, ah, in the US as well as Asia, specifically China. And I just got access to the most amazing founders, VCs, investors, um, that are obviously super inspiring but also the employees and svb, they are just a special breed of um, super smart but low ego and that was really refreshing. A high learning environment, very culture and value centered. Um, and that really flowed through all of the decisions that we made and having the opportunities to scale the business and build in a bit of a scrappy way, but also with the uh, foundation, the stability of the mothership in the US was, yeah, was really an incredible place to be and I'm sure we'll come on perhaps to then evolving that into HSBC innovation banking maybe now or a bit later.

Co-host: Uh, yeah, we, we, we certainly will. We certainly will. I mean it. So it, it, it feels like certainly what you're doing at Fund and indeed what you were doing at Silicon Valley bank was a, uh, very much a B2B marketing role and, and sort of, you know, around the ecosystem of, of businesses in the startup ecosystem as well as now in the wealth management space. So do you have sort of a lens of a bit of a playbook when it comes to B2B marketing? How do you think about that?

Elly Sherwin: Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I think about it as how can marketing play that role in driving predictable growth? How are we using that customer insight, how to really understand where the demand comes from, how we can think about shaping the messaging, making the selling part easier for all of our partners with, within the business, whether that's product, sales, distribution, etc. Um, and I suppose it depends, the different flavors of that depend on the specific business that you're in. Um, and so for me now a lot of it is really around building that brand as well as driving growth through acquisition and growing share of wallet. But I think really it comes down to the fundamentals of you know, having strong commercial acumen, um, and I've loved listening to some of your guests talk about that as well. But really understanding how the business makes money and drives revenue and how um, I think as a marketer, if you understand that friction, but also where you can help create efficiencies within the business, it enables you to fly, um, as a marketer, um, but also bringing to it that level of customer insight and truly understanding with empathy where clients are coming from. And at times you know that that's difficult. So I always like to go back to the research where I can, um, and then just having being human, right, leading with empathy, being approachable, um, and being clear and focused with what you're doing. We don't tend to have the largest budgets. And so you know, got to be, you've got to be really focused, you've got to be able to say no and have that clarity of the priorities that you're driving, the tactics underneath them and then obviously how you're measuring that

Co-host: output today's program is brought to you by two fantastic organizations. First up is Studio Space, a uh leading on demand marketing agency platform. Studio Space gives marketers complete control over their projects from matching the right agency to your brief, to managing contracts and invoicing and even tracking all of your spend data all in the one place. They take care of everything and it's totally hassle free. They even guarantee the work. So check out Studio Space today. Our uh, second sponsor is the Marketing Skills Trust. A uh, charity with a mission to make marketing a better place for everyone. They provide grants to help create a more equitable industry and support initiatives that really do drive diversity, inclusion and create opportunity. The Trust has been instrumental in leveling up the marketing skills across the board and do take a look at their website for more information. Now let's get on with the show.

Host: I love you use the word serendipity yourself. I love that. Translator to marketing agency accidentally to 15 years thinner SVP. Um, but the VC world, probably most people think it's not a world with much empathy. It's quite cut and thrust but, but also it's a place of energy and inventiveness and so on. So what would you say to people about what you think the experience of being in VC world is?

Elly Sherwin: Yeah, so fascinating question and I suppose I can come at it from different angles because I was lucky as well early in my career to spend time at 3i so in the grandfather of PE and VC and then see it through the eyes of innovation, banking, supporting it. And now I'm obviously in a role where firsthand we're VC backed and we're seeing it in a different way. But um, know founders think that their stories are unique and that's because they are. Um, and so there's that deep emotional attachment and I think a big part of the job is really understanding what drives them. So you know, generic bank messaging or investment platform messaging or any generic messaging is not going to work with that audience. I think showing that you truly understand um, the challenges that they're facing, whether that is, you know, raising their next round or looking for a CFO in a new market, um, they're challenged and they will have that open conversation with you, um, and share that if you can get on their level. So with SVB in particular, it was less about marketing too and more about being a participant with them and showing that we were a part of their world, um, and that we were able to add value not just for the sake of trying to add value but really doing that in an intimate, credible, research backed way. So again it was I suppose that theme around partnership uh, well above and beyond just being a bank.

Co-host: I am um, moving on and thinking about um, SVB and then it moving into the HSBC Innovation Bank. Tell us a bit more about that experience.

Elly Sherwin: Yeah, I mean honestly the most surreal experience of my life for many, many reasons. Um, not least because I had a very young baby at the time and was on maternity leave. But obviously having been with SVB for so long and working with such a special exec team, the choice um, it didn't feel like a choice. It felt like we need, I needed to go back in that leadership presence was very much um, needed and that we would rally together as a team to give the best experience to our clients and also to our people. Um, and so I suppose over that weekend maybe we can start there and come on to the broader experience. But um, yeah, unforgettable. But the way that uh, the internal team rallied but also the external ecosystem, I don't know if you remember it but you know we had our VCs, our uh, the PE firms, we had our clients, we had big influencers in the industry coming out to try and find the best solution about the next home for svb. And that was really, really powerful at a time when clients were facing so much uncer. Employees were really carrying that um, emotional as well as operational load for clients. And what was really important was strong communication both externally as well as internally. So remember we were locked in the boardroom for nearly kind of 72 hours over that weekend and we obviously landed with uh, hsbc but we'd prepared all sorts of different scenarios depending on what was happening. And you don't um, you don't always know what's going to happen. But trying to communicate as transparently as possible and as factually as possible in a kind of calm and considered way was really paramount to how that played out. And so then yeah we became uh, HSBC pretty much overnight on that Sunday to Monday morning. And uh, and again an absolutely life changing and uh, completely life shaping experience. And I think most people that were close to it may say something similar but in a, in a funny way um, when you think the worst thing that could happen happens, it actually really, really shapes you. It teaches you a huge amount about resilience, about collaboration, um, about your own life choices. So yeah, some, some good hopefully came out of it as well as a really, really challenging time.

Host: For those who aren't familiar, this was the collab, one of a really Big banking failure of the parent company in the U.S. yeah. So uh, and then you're thrown into the cauldron. I want to go a little bit more. And you said that you know, there was learnings and you know it, you took some learnings out of a difficult experience. Just, just say a bit more about the, the gift that that gave you that's going to make you stronger for the future.

Elly Sherwin: Yeah, I think resilience it was, I mean I, I thought I was resilient before, um, for different reasons, whether that be, you know, spending long stints away from overseas, things that might have happened in my personal life, et cetera, et cetera. This was the level of grit I think that was involved again, um, for me in particular, having such a young child and a toddler at the time, you know, your hormones are all over the place. Um, I'll be open for the sake of other women on here listening as well. You know, taking a pumping machine into bathrooms and all sorts of things that you hadn't necessarily prepared and planned for. And there's also judgments around as well around choices that you're making it at that time, around being you know, care orientated, um, mother. But I also felt I needed to do what was right for my um, family at the time too. And that was that. So staying the course around that was um, definitely built some resilience in me, um, as well as all of the teamwork things that we've, we've talked about. And a big learning was clarity mattered even more than I thought it did. And that was challenging when um, we were working with him. Um, ambiguity as well. And we didn't exactly know how things were going to land. But doing that with um, conviction, um, being calm, being present for the team, I learned that more than, more than anything, that presence, that kind of feet on the street point being a sounding board when people were going through all those different phases of emotion and communication. I suppose within this world has always been my great love. But that really emphasized to me why and marketing's role in meaning making for people. When there's so much noise out there, when there's so much emotion and the ground feels really shaky. Being able to steady the way for people and help them understand what's next through a clear, clear narrative and clear framing, just kind of step by step was again just um, a huge, huge learning for me.

Co-host: It must have in the moment been incredible shock, probably not foreseen in any, to any degree and therefore then thrust into a level of ambiguity as you say, probably you're not experiencing a career level, you know, to that point. And then when you've landed in the HSBC fold a few days later, which literally a few days later and my gosh, these things sometimes take years and it's like a few days later you're there. Yeah, um, it is, it's. And to some degree it's not what you had ever thought about probably two weeks prior to that and all of a sudden you would never have thought that this was what then happens. I mean how do you, how do you then deal with that? How do you feel about it? How do you, there's a sense of bounce backability that has to come from that. You know, you're into this new organization and you're probably going there under stress circumstances. How do you then get into the fold and how do you integrate in that way that makes you feel good?

Elly Sherwin: We had exceptionally long strong leadership through Aaron Platz who uh, was our CEO at the time and that, that helped a huge amount and that united nature of our team. But also uh, the HSBC teams across the board were really welcoming to us. Um, it was a shock, it was a huge culture shock. Um, and I'd never worked in a large corporate before either. So it's a completely different code, a completely different language and way of doing things and I'm sure I made many a misstep step along along the way in the journey there. Um, but we had um, there was almost a rallying cry and we all, whether you were uh, you know, been at HSBC for a long time or you literally one day in the job there, like me, there was a huge amount of momentum around making this acquisition work. And um, so the job turned immediately to again how do we create continuity for clients, for colleagues and uh, how can we show that actually perhaps the perceptions of a legacy bank, um, doing this kind of thing actually they don't have to be that way. You know we could really show that um, you know, what then turned out to be Innovation Banking could be a huge success. So it immediately turned to action I suppose and within just a few short weeks or a couple of months we had gone through a uh, complete rebrand process to land with launching HSBC Innovation Banking at London Tech Week and all the wraparound activity that we did around that.

Co-host: You've got to tell us, how did you land on HSBC Innovation Bank? There must be loads of names banded around.

Elly Sherwin: There were so many names banded around. It was, was definitely a lot of fun. I can still remember, remember a few of them, uh, we wanted something that was almost going to be. It does what it says on the tin. And you know, one of the hardest things to let go of with SVB was actually the name, you know, Silicon Valley bank. The equity. The emotion in that name is just, is massive. Um, but obviously it was tarnished at that point already because what had happened with the mothership in the uk us and so um, we had to uh, think about actually what is the most important thing now. It's not a name, it's not a logo or a color palette. It's actually, um, staying true to what people love about us. And that was the community building, that was the deep connection with the ecosystem and the continuity of relationship. True, true relationship led service. So we, we tried to make that come through and yeah, there were many, many debates about the name and it's one of those situations where, you know, often with a rebrand it will be more storytelling led, where this one was just about continuity more. So there was an element of, of obviously storytelling, but it was more about, you know, helping to instill that sense of, of security, stability and uh, then you know, what's to come as part of being part of a much bigger, uh, um, global organization with incredible reach, which actually we didn't have before. So it was about marrying the best of what we had together with the best of the new, which is actually a really, really powerful proposition.

Host: You make it sound quite easy, but I'm sure at one level it's a bit oil and water because the scale and so I suppose practically how do you. Did you. How do you keep that sort of DNA of startup inside an enormous organization?

Elly Sherwin: Yeah, it's such a great question and I'm sure it varies depending on the industry you're in and where you are. I think again, you get really clear on what you can't m. What cannot change. And that's the startup. That's the kind of startup DNA and that community connection. And I think if you start to lose use that then you know, you get into slightly challenging territory and making it human, making it relevant, making it authentic. So we started off by launching in the uk, but then we quickly went all around the world and I would, I then became the global CMO for innovation banking. And you know, whether we were in China, whether we were in the US and now they've expanded into other parts of the world, it's about again, what are those core messages, um, and those core brand elements, but then how do you make them relevant, um, and authentic on the ground? And that came through, through storytelling, through proof points, through case studies. Um, yeah, we're subject to a lot of scrutiny so you've got to make sure that it lands well.

Co-host: So you, you went from the big, the big mothership as it were. Well, we've all spent time there. So all of that, um, and now you're thrust back into sort of scale up land with fundament. What made you jump from mega, mega corporate back into scale up territory?

Elly Sherwin: I really wanted to get back into build mode and that's where I get my energy from the scale, the pace, working really closely with the CEO and a founder to build something meaningful and rolling up my sleeves again, getting, you know, right back into, you know, big picture strategic thinking as well as rolling up the sleeves and, and into the weeds. And I think fundament just really ticked a lot of boxes for me. Um, again, slightly serendipity the way, you know, the way that I was able to find that. But I think it has a really strong mission, has a strong culture which is really important to me. I think you've got to work somewhere where you feel you belong, with great people that are gonna challenge you and where you're gonna learn. Um, a big problem to solve and a massive market opportunity. So that's why I landed where I've landed and having lots of fun. It's completely different.

Host: So now back into a very different, different game again. And I'm curious to know what's, what's really working for you and maybe what are some of the lessons because marketing is moving so fast. What's, what's working and what's some of the learnings even in these times.

Elly Sherwin: So speed is absolutely key. Um, and the, the, the pace of decision making, uh, is, you know, the, the decision making happens so quickly and the customer feedback I think is more important than ever now. In particular, it is a much smaller world, a smaller target audience to some extent with financial planning professionals you've got to be right on the pulse of what they need, what their expectations are and making sure that the messaging and positioning really resonates with them. Um, I'm sure they wouldn't mind me saying it's a broad statement, but there is some cynicism there as well. So you, you know, for me the job is really differentiating, differentiating through precision, being really clear about what makes us different. Um, and you know, why any financial planner should come and um, be on the platform. And it's not about the glossy campaigns and over polished statements. I think the other thing to answer your question is about you know I've got a much leaner team now and so what's working is getting really focused and really clear on those levers that are going to help uh us win in market. And we've got the ability to work really closely with the sales and the distributions team in a different, very, very different way that you would find um, in a large corporate or even a ah, smaller corporate and so understanding going out with them, meeting the clients, meeting the planners, thinking about how we really build brand but also how we drive growth, how we get those businesses through the funnel more quickly, closing um those sales cycles and also again around thinking back to the share of wallet piece around really deepening and entrenching those relationships. Most um, planners are multi platformed in the same way that most businesses or customers are multi banked. So thinking about you know, how do you really get in and it's the same, it's that emotional connection, it's that usefulness that really helps to I think build that, that connection and that, that business growth comes with it.

Co-host: So you've gone from the behemoth of, of, of an HSBC into a scale up and I suspect as part of that you have to flex different muscles and skill sets and I, and I wonder there'll be lots of marketers who either are sitting on either side of those coins, very sort of

Host: keen um,

Co-host: on jumping from different types and sizes of organizations. So how would you rationalize the different muscles that you have to pull and the skill sets you have to develop when you're working in a big behemoth like HHSBC Innovation bank versus working in a fundament?

Elly Sherwin: Great question and I think the fundamentals stay the same. So you know we talked about understanding customer insight, anchoring everything you do in that uh, having strong commercial acumen, you know, being a human first type of leader, um, having that clarity, setting clear priorities. I think all of those things are true but what's different is again is the speed and for me the ability to get things done and, and you have to be able to cope with ambiguity in a high growth sort of scale up environment. And that's not for everybody. The feedback loops are faster. As we said you get feedback from your CEO and you found it instantly and at times that's fantastic, at times you know it's challenging and again that's resilience building. Um, but that's fun being able to test, being, being able to learn and you know for me that's where I get the energy from. It's that curiosity, it's The Lear being at the coal face of what the business is actually there to do. So, yeah, lots of core fundamentals, but I think the way in which you do it and the way in which you get things done varies massively depending on the size and stage of the business. And then obviously the internal culture

Co-host: in

Host: general, your energy shines through. You've mentioned the word a few times, um, which is great, but also you have to be learning continuously. So I think you did, uh, an emerging CMO program at Stanford Graduate School, which sounds incredibly impressive. So what did you learn from that? But also generally, how are you? How are you keeping up?

Elly Sherwin: Well, I'm very fortunate to know you guys and to listen to this podcast and, um, you know, and I love. Yeah, as I've said, I love learning. So I will read, um, and digest as, as much as I can, but there is a huge amount of noise out there, so it's definitely becoming more challenging. Um, and my husband and I actually doing an experiment at the moment where we've, you know, we've deleted Instagram, we've stopped looking. I look at obviously LinkedIn for work and some other social channels, but it's, it's so crowded that it's. It is hard to see the wood for the trees. And the same is true as you're trying to build a brand. And, you know, I think within some of these CMO groups, we talk about the fact that, you know, mediocrity is just not going to cut it. You know, you really need to have high quality to staff stand out. Um, and so with the learning piece, it's, yeah, it's observing what's going on. It's looking at, you know, who I think's doing it well, who's less so. But I'd never gone down the traditional learning route. You know, I didn't study marketing at university, and, um, I did probably still have that voice in my head almost questioning whether I needed to have that more traditional learning. And so it was actually Covid again, that was my first maternity leave, and I did that, that course just to keep things ticking over and, and going and help feed my curiosity. And I, um, not only did I meet an incredible network of people globally, but I also learned that being a great CMO is about zooming out. It's about that much broader, uh, operational understanding, that kind of executive level of leadership as opposed to marketing excellence and being a really good leader in, in my function. So if anything, I think it helped just bolster that experience and that confidence and it can be Lonely as we know, being, um, a CMO or being a leader, uh, and having those people around you that you can talk to, that you can call on, that you can get advice from, I would highly recommend to anybody, it's often on the back burner because we've got such long to do lists and often in meetings all day long. But just making that time for those moments of connection with people that really get it, uh, makes a big difference. But communities like the ones that you have been building are just hugely, hugely valuable. So thank you.

Host: Very kind.

Co-host: Thank you. Yes, indeed, very kind. And I think that's at the core of what we're trying to do, is to kind of help people really understand what will make a tangible difference to both their careers as well as, you know, the commercial operations of the organizations that they're in. Um, we can't do a podcast today without thinking about the world of AI. And certainly, you know, from the times gone by and the time you went to Stanford, things have absolutely, you know, shifted quite dramatically in that, in that space. So how are you thinking about it? How are you leveraging AI? How are you thinking about the operating model of your team as you move forward in this sort of new world? We find ourselves in such a topical question.

Elly Sherwin: And again, I love where I am now 6 months in M because it's a proper build role. And so all of these questions are forefront of mine and I'm thinking about, you know, where do I put the resource within the team that is going to give, you know, most bang for buck for the, for the business where we need, like, truly specialist in house skills and then where we can bring in, um, the strongest agency partners possible. Uh, and then where we can use other tools like AI and being able to experiment, obviously we've got rules around it, um, for usage, but being able to use that is cutting out so much additional admin time M in particular for me. But yeah, so we're looking and thinking across the full realm of marketing about how we, how we, how and where we can best deploy it. Uh, the key is obviously we still want to be relevant. We still want to get that cut through. We don't just want to be a bland brand. Um, we need to be brave. We need to be, we need to be bold and kind of anchored in those financial plan, the truths. But we need to get the leg up where we can with, with the tools. And it would be kind of foolish, foolish not to. And again, I think you can have, you can have a lot of fun with it.

Co-host: Um, so, yeah, so, so that, that thought process then. Well, do you, do you think you can still have an incredible amount of creativity whilst using those tools or do you feel the tools inhibit that level of creativity?

Elly Sherwin: Creativity, I think inhibit is strong. I uh, think that they can definitely. Um, I think there's a place for, for in our, in, in our shoes where we don't have um, in house creative capabilities. For example, we have a, um, really strong agency and, and I don't. We're just not at the place internally now where we would get that. So um, I think having that, but also AI to challenge some of those conceptions and um, perception. Sorry. And that thinking, um, will help us to supplement but also help us to amplify and think about how we take that big idea that we have strategically developed, um, and think about how you then deploy it in different ways and again give it the legs so that it's not just a moment in time, but it's a concept that can evolve through the journey. Journey.

Host: Flip subject a little bit to mentoring and um, it's been so important in both of our careers and probably for you too as well. But your perspectives on mentoring, how, how and when you've used it. Um, maybe the, the benefits. What's, what's your take on mentoring?

Elly Sherwin: Big fan. Probably unsurprisingly back to the. Staying curious and, and interested. Uh, it's International Women's Day, um, a week on Sunday I think as well. So. And it's not just about lifting up other women, but I am a big proponent of doing that. And so I try to kind of mentor and coach where I can. But for me, and the reason is, is for me personally it has lifted me um, in so, so many ways. And I think actually most of my mentors have been on, on the business side of things and that's been huge helpful because again it's helped me to understand how the business works and give me a safe space to ask those questions that perhaps I was, you know, embarrassed to ask of the CFO or the head honcho in sales and things. But so I've had some, you know, Aaron, Aaron Platz is one of those people as we've talked about, who that generosity of time, but also knowledge and understanding, I think and being able to, to get on the same level is, is really important. Um, and on the marketing side as well, just a big proponent of that because again it takes time to learn. It takes, you know, you, you have to make mistakes along the way as well. And that's important too. Being Able to talk in a trusted way to people around, you know, how do you keep, how do you keep getting better? Uh, how do you survive the knockbacks? Um, and I'm also a big believer in, you know, having clear professional and personal goals. So again, thinking about how you, how you measure yourself and it is helpful sometimes to have that person that also can hold you to account as well as yourself, uh, down that road.

Co-host: It's been a fascinating conversation and time has just flown by so quick, quick. So let's come on to the last question. You've had a stellar career, scaled up organizations, big, massive organizations, um, and a few bumps along the road, a few shocks along the road as well. So what advice would you give to people who are forging a marketing career today in order to try and have a level of success that you've had?

Elly Sherwin: Feel the fear and do it anyway? I know it's a well known phrase, but it's one that I love. You know, I think you have to push yourself out of your comfort zone. Nerves are, nerves are a good thing. It often is a, is a signal that you're going to grow, you're about to grow and you don't always need, um, the certainty of exactly where you're gonna land. But my view is you just need to know why you're choosing that option. So what's motivated, motivating you to do it? Is it because you want pace, you want change, you want a different kind of challenge? So feeling that and kind of sitting sometimes with that discomfort, but again, putting the mentors or the support network around you to go and do that, um, I think is, is really, really powerful. And perhaps the last thing is I'm definitely someone who has, you know, struggled with perfectionism along the, um, I think what I would probably tell my younger self is you don't need to have all the answers. You need to have great questions. Um, and you know, you need to lead with empathy. You need to have clarity of conviction and a level of decisiveness. But if you've got that, and you've got that hunger to, uh, learn, build relationships, ships, then you know you're flying.

Host: What a great rallying cry. Feel the fear and do it anyway. It's been a lovely conversation. Ellie, thank you very much for your time today.

Elly Sherwin: Thank you very much. It's been great.