The Career Advice Every 20 & 30-Something Needs to Hear (From a Global Marketing Leader)

Speaker A: I've kind of always believed in this idea of just do something, just do something, do something different and see kind of where it takes you.

Speaker B: Now, today, we have none other than Tim Huelbert on the show. Tim is the current global head of insights, planning and brand strategy at the Standard Chartered Bank. But he really had an unconventional journey into marketing.

Speaker C: I think you've had a hundred jobs already. I mean, the explorer. Is that your perspective of where careers are going to be from here on in?

Speaker A: Ironically, I always dreamt of having a job for life. I mean, that was.

Speaker C: You failed?

Speaker A: I really failed.

Speaker B: From teaching pottery in South India, to being an assistant director on the TV series, to even putting content on Bloomberg terminals in the early days of digital publishing. How do you balance the thought that luck plays a role versus what's in your control when it comes to your career?

Speaker A: I do firmly believe that there is an element of luck, um, that sits within success. I think it's a combination of having an attitude of looking for opportunities. The cleverest work my team do and I do, we often sit on and think very carefully about what we surface because actually, most organizations historically haven't been equipped to actually use super clever insight.

Speaker B: Um, from synthetic audiences to the psychology of wealth. This episode is going to be a real banger. So let's get right in. Tim, I've been looking forward to this episode for a long time. Thanks for coming on.

Speaker A: I'm excited to be here.

Speaker B: Ah, Tim, you started your career behind the camera and now today work in one of the largest financial institutions heading up their Insight division. Tell us a little bit about the journey.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I guess the early part of my career was, uh, really a reflection of a sense of adventure that I had. I kind of wanted to just see what the world had to offer. And I didn't go to university immediately after school. I wanted to just see something, see something and just experience a bit of the world I'd never been to before. And I was really lucky. I kind of through conversations and contacts and managed to get myself a job volunteering as an unpaid teacher in a school in South India. And I taught pottery and gave piano classes, which is really fun. Um, kind of did that for a while. Came back, realized I wasn't old enough, grown up enough to go to work properly. A lot of people are. I absolutely wasn't. So I went to university then did a kind of general degree of business studies, economics. Really enjoyed it in a way. I hadn't enjoyed A levels. I think the. It was kind of one of the early Modular degrees where you get to sort of construct it yourself and sort of follow things that are interesting. Um, so I really did quite enjoy that and did well there. Um, did a few other jobs. Kind of in summer I worked as a restaurant manager in a Greek hotel, worked as a cocktail waiter down in Munich. Um, and I just always had this sort of, I just want to, I just want to try stuff. I just want to live life and kind of experience as much as possible. And then kind of after uni, uh, I helped someone who was writing a book, who had a brother, sorry, a sister and brother in law who owned a TV production company. They offered me a job as a runner on a series called Bramwell. Uh, from there I kind of got freelancing jobs as a third assistant director. And it was just kind of like, let's just see what, see what the next thing leads to. And I've kind of always believed in this idea of just do something, just do something, do something different and see kind of where it takes you. So, so really that early part of my career was just a case of taking, uh, opportunities that came my way. Um, and then I kind of had a moment of, um, realizing that the TV industry probably wasn't for me. Um, I was having a lot of fun, probably too much fun, feeling a bit kind of burnt out at the tender age of 23. Uh, and I kind of went back to where I kind of started and studied, which was marketing. Uh, and I'd like to say my first job was grand, uh, but it wasn't. It was working in a call center for Craftmatic Bendy beds on the night shift in the early days of drtv. Uh, but from there I kind of worked and got a more interesting job in the agency. And then from there I kind of got lucky again, I guess and went to work for, uh, the Prime Minister of Argentina who had a publishing business in London. Uh, and it was the early days of digital publishing. They had a kind of business newsletter that they were looking to kind of digitize. And so I was really again fortunate. Just lucky timing I think a little bit. Found myself in conversations directly with Mike Bloomberg about putting the content onto Bloomberg. Kind uh, of shows my age that he was still having conversations with young kids. Uh, and Reuters. And we turned it into an Internet product. Uh, at the time when everyone said you couldn't possibly charge for content on the Internet. So it was super, super interesting. From there I got a job working for Dot com, ended up in New York, living, uh, in Manhattan. Uh, and I was kind of really naive and young. I didn't maximize that opportunity. I found New York a bit scary at that time. I've subsequently been back and loved it a lot. Uh, and then that went bust and so I came back to the uk. It was a very messy situation. Uh, all our stuff was in New York. Uh, we had no money. Uh, and Virgin actually did a massive favor and brought it all back for nothing. Which was another story for a drink.

Speaker C: You can't get through an episode without something positive about Virgin, which is an incredible brand.

Speaker A: Right? It is incredible brand and authentic and actually still feels personal M which I think is quite unusual for a big brand. But realized actually what I wanted to do was now go and have what I thought was a grown up career. And so I started targeting FTSE 100 companies I wanted to work for and eventually got a job working for Centrica at the aa. Uh, and there I met some people who I learned a huge amount from, who were then very kind and sponsored my career, actually. Uh, and in particular Claire Salmon, who was the, uh, Marketing Director and then the Managing Director of AA Financial Services and Home and Road. I'm not going to get her title right, but she was formidable and incredible to learn from. Uh, and through her I then got kind of other opportunities at itv, rsa. And then I headhunter called about a job at Barclays and I went there and I spent 10 years there. And so there have been moments of kind of structured thinking. Um, but I would say probably the biggest recurring theme in my life has been thinking, what can I now do either that I couldn't do before or with what's on the table in front of me.

Speaker C: I think you've had 100 jobs already. I mean, the explorer, uh, comes to mind. Ah. And what's really interesting is maybe perhaps excluding a bit about needing a degree. What you just described is what I think careers are going to be now. It's like, do, do something.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Because everything's changing so fast and you know, the slightly terrifying stat that 50% of white collar work will disappear. So do you see it like that? I mean, is that your perspective of way careers are going to be from here on in?

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, ironically, I always dreamt of having a job for life. I mean, that was.

Speaker C: You failed?

Speaker A: I really failed. I mean, I failed really badly. Um, I kind of. So when I, when I made the decision to go kind of blue chip, what I was imagining was I go into Centrica and I'd work for Centrica for the rest of my life. And I do. Bit of British gas, a bit of one tail, bit of goldfish and the aa. Uh, and I thought I'd build up a pension and shares and yeah, all those kind of things. And I think once I was in it, that became less important. However, I have stayed largely in large organizations until now. Um, and I have enjoyed. When I worked for a publishing company, I was really aware of whether or not we were going to make payroll. And, and I definitely made the decision that I wanted to work for an organization where I didn't know anything about that. I wanted the finance department to be so far away, uh, and able to make payroll that it was just something that I didn't think about. Uh, but to answer your question, yes, I do. I think, uh, not only has business changed and it needs the turntable of people because skill sets change and I think people become stale quite quickly. I, uh, think it's what people want as well. I mean, I don't talk to young people and ever hear I want a job for life. I don't hear any of them talking about I want to go into one organization and work for it forever. I think that's quite rare. I think people want to explore. I think I'd like to think I was slightly ahead of my time. Uh, and I kind of joke that I'm an old person in a Millennials. No. Millennial's body. No, a millennial in an old person's body. Uh, I think that's the squiggly career stuff has been my experience and I think that's probably what most people are choosing and what businesses are demanding as well.

Speaker C: Career is a turntable. Love that.

Speaker B: Today's program is brought to you by two fantastic organizations. First up is Studio Space, A, uh, leading on demand marketing agency platform. Studio Space gives marketers complete control over their projects. From matching the right agency to your brief, to managing contracts and invoicing and even tracking all of your spend data all in the one place. They take care of everything and it's totally hassle free. They even guarantee the work. So check out Studio Space today. Our, uh, second sponsor is the Marketing Skills Trust. Uh, a charity with a mission to make marketing a better place for everyone. They provide grants to help create a more equitable industry and support initiatives that really do drive diversity, inclusion and create opportunity. The Trust has been instrumental in leveling up the marketing skills across the board and do take a look at their website for more information. Now let's get on with the show. We're going to come back onto some of Your experiences as you've described them. So many things I could have picked out there. But for a m moment I'm going to pick up on some something that you said in and around. You've spoken to loads of young people and you really have an understanding of certainly what they're looking for and not looking for from their career. When I look at the work you do in a professional capacity, your segments in which Standard Chartered operates is in corporate segments or indeed the ultra high net worth sort of area. So can you give us maybe an understanding as to what are some of the perspectives that perhaps people in those fractions of life are thinking about today when it either comes to their careers or indeed some of the trends that you see, um, and behaviors that you see amongst those segments?

Speaker A: Yeah, sure. So I think in the corporate segment, I think is easy. It's just normal people that have put on their work clothes. And I think when we think about B2B marketing, when I think about B2B marketing, B2B branding, you've just got to remember they're just normal people that have gone to work. So that's easy. I think the, the ultra high net worths and the high net worths. I guess what I see and hear, uh, is definitely a couple of things. So one is the uh, the kind of fear around handing on what you've done. So, um, if it's a family business, kind of is that next generation ready? Does it have the same drive? Um, and there are plenty of stats about kind of how many generations it takes to lose kind of what's been built before.

Speaker B: So there's a bit of truism that sits within that fear.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. And anyone who's got parents that have done something very vocational or very demanding or very involving, um, I think it's quite rare that the kids think I want to do exactly what my parents did. You know, if, if people have got parents who are business owners, I think it's quite unusual that the kids will naturally want to do that. Maybe if it earns billions of dollars, it's more appealing and I just don't know those people. Um, so I think that's, that's one thing then I think there's kind of legacy. But I feel like that's. I feel like that's a. People understand that. Been talking about legacy for a long, long time. I think people reach a state of wealth and privilege where almost the only thing left that they can acquire is a kind of everlasting something. Uh, and that maybe gives them Some sort of sense of immortality, uh, or just doing good. But I think that the new thing that is definitely everywhere is that health is wealthy and that wellness and living a life of quality, being able to access hard to access opportunities and have experiences, uh, is the ultimate privilege that people are seeking. And the kind of, you know, the conversation we were having before we started here about the privilege of being able to slow down.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, doesn't mean you're not driven, but it just means that you're perhaps being intentional about how you spend your time, how you spend your money, uh, and what you're investing in. And that might be memories and experiences and wellness, uh, as much as it perhaps in the past used to be art and cars and watches.

Speaker B: So move towards, um, the more sort of desire for time and freedoms as opposed to materialism. Is there a movement in that. In that direction, perhaps, or even I dare say spirituality is to some degree. Or how does that sort of play out? Because you talked about verses the paintings and the watches. Yeah. How does that sort of equate m.

Speaker A: I think it's probably additive rather than substitutional. So it's kind of like, I've got that people with lots of money still, like yachts and cars and nice property. Um, but it's kind of like, what next? You know, what next? Um, and I think, yeah, there's a lot of wealthy people out there spending a lot of money to look young and they kind of want the inside to match, um, not just be a beautiful corpse. So, uh, you know, I think it's maybe a bit of that.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker A: And science allows it as well now. Yeah, that's the other thing. There are things we can achieve now that we couldn't achieve.

Speaker B: This longevity trend is absolutely at the core of it. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. And of course you can hook up all your personal data to your LLM and et cetera, et cetera, if I, If I go. Uh. So that's quite existential. Let's go back to the day job. Um, and you. I think you've described your role as driving the customer agenda using data and insight, and twas ever thus. That's the role of marketing to try and bring the future forward and the outside in. Um, tell us about that pursuit, how you approach it, some of the wins you've had. Because it's. It's everybody's challenge, really.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think, um, and I don't. And it's not rocket science. I mean, I think the cleverest work that my team do and I do, we. We often sit on and, and think very carefully about what we surface because actually uh, most organizations historically haven't been equipped to actually use super clever insight. And there's kind of so much basic stuff, uh, that every organization I've worked for kind of falls over on. And I think most organizations struggle to see themselves as others see them. Um, and the longer people have been in those organizations, the harder it is for them. Um, but I think that's just a universal truth. I mean we all struggle. Don't be the self awareness. And um, I think it's corporately true as well. So I see a large part of my job is holding up the mirror and being sometimes quite brave voice in the room, um, having those emperor's new clothes moments and saying this just isn't what people want and, and being willing to perhaps stop things as much as you start things, uh, by being that voice of the customer inside the organization. Of course there's all the kind of ROI stuff that you can, if you've got good insight, you can see impact, you can see behaviors, you can m, monitor things and see what works and what doesn't work. And that's kind of the table stakes. That means you have value within the organization. Um, and then gives you the permission to perhaps be that little voice at the back that goes excuse me sir, I don't think that's true.

Speaker C: So if it's getting tooled up, armed for that battle, uh, the guest we had on last week was somebody from an organization called Culture Pulse and he blew our minds in terms of what he described as psychologically realistic digital twins. To really, genuinely, truly understand the way that your customers think, think and act way beyond what LLMs would allow, um, may sound sort of pie in the sky, but it seems to be true. So what does that sound like something that is interesting or more generally how are you using AI in pursuit of what you just described?

Speaker A: So it definitely sounds interesting to me. And one of the reasons I think it's really interesting is when we're dealing with ultra high net worth individuals, for example, um, in normal day to day kind of branding work, uh, you might go out to the market and say do you prefer this shade of blue or this. How does it make you feel? These people aren't having that kind of conversation, but it still matters. Uh, and so I think being able to get into the head, genuinely into the head of people that uh, are too busy, too important to uh, to called upon to be able to have those kind of conversations is super, super interesting. Uh, I think one of the Challenges we've had, uh, is the numbers of clients are quite small in some of our areas. And so being able to train the AI, uh, is still something that's evolving. Uh, and I know in digital twins, you, you don't train in the same way. Uh, and so I think that is particularly exciting. Um, I think the other challenge. But so just to follow that through then. So we have done some work on synthetic audiences and we've run parallel studies with real people and synthetic audiences. And even removing the research effect, the response is so varied and um, sort of wildly different, we haven't been able to use it yet. Um, the other challenge we have is we operate across 53 geographies. Uh, we're regulated and so we can only move ourselves at the pace of the slowest regulator that we work with. And there's a lot of concern about kind of uh, AI being set free and decisions being made on what some of the regulators might see as, uh, not robust data and information. So it's kind of, I think, I think in regulated industries it's still kind of, let's, let's let some of the other industries go faster, uh, and then we'll kind of learn and follow a little bit.

Speaker B: You know, it reminded me of the study that Anthropic came up with, what, two weeks ago, where it had the spider diagram. I don't know if. Did you see this one? It's really interesting. So basically it had the circle spider of all the different professions. And then it basically showed you how far I could effectively do the work within that profession. Uh, so that was sort of the blue of the spider diagram. And then what it had as a secondary input was the degree to which the work is being done by AI today. And there was a mega, mega delta between the two. So just because AI can do something doesn't mean it should do something. Um, and particularly given the constraints of what you described around the regulatory environments in different parts of the world constraining your ability to use certain key capabilities and technologies. It really kind of got me thinking about the difference. And interestingly it just made me kind of feel when I was looking at the diagram that we've got so much further to go. Even if AI can do something, actually humanity in the world has a long way to keep up to actually ever get to that 50% loss of white collar jobs, um, which gave me a little bit of consolation and happiness in that way. Tim, you're describing in the early parts of your career, in fact, as you described when you went through Your meander of different experiences. You used the word luck quite a lot, which really triggered me. And I was like, that's interesting, because for someone who's really got to the place where you have. It feels like one. I think you're grateful for it. But there's a lot of times you talked about just being in the right place at the right time. And I wonder what your perspective, because you also, at the same time reflected on some of the key people who helped you get to where you wanted to get to too. So how do you balance the thought that luck plays a role versus what's in your control when it comes to your career?

Speaker A: So I think it's a bit of. It's always a bit of both. Right. Because I think the people help you because you work hard, you show up on time, you go a mile beyond, you perhaps work out when they're in the office and lots of people aren't in the office. So you can have a conversation with them. Uh, so you can sort of make some luck. And you, um. There's definitely an element of you listening, hearing what's going on, thinking, where can I help? Where can I get involved? And having an attitude of can do. Um, and I'd like to think I've always been quite, uh. I've always felt lucky and. And grateful, which I like to think keeps me relatively humble. So I've never had an issue like if my boss said, can you go and pick up my dry cleaning? I'm very happy to be one of the best paid couriers in London. You know, I've got no issue with that whatsoever. So I've never had an attitude of that's not my job, or that's beneath me because I've always felt lucky and grateful. Um, love.

Speaker B: It's a lovely perspective. Stick.

Speaker A: Yeah, but. But interesting. On the way here, I saw a clip of Angelina Jolie making a speech at the Oscars, like, years ago. I don't know when it was. And she talked about the fact that, yes, somewhere on the other side of the world is a woman just like her, who loves her family, works hard, has the same work ethic. Uh, she didn't say just as beautiful, but just as beautiful. Probably a great actress would make great movies, but because of where she was born or just because of chance, hasn't been able to live the same life that she has. And so I do firmly believe that there is an element of luck that sits within success. So I think it's a combination of having an attitude of looking for opportunities I think actually being helpful and working hard and being, uh, a nice person to work with actually goes a long way as well. Uh, but I think there is. I do believe there is just an element of being lucky.

Speaker B: Well, um, just on the Angelina Jolie point, um, I heard this wonderful quote. It was in a movie, I think it was, and it was a bit of a tense scene, and the guy just said, geography equals destiny.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: Just to the exact point that you described, that there are people all around the world and different opportunities are open to different people and less so to others. Just on the back of where you

Speaker C: were born, postcode lottery, even in the uk, I think I also know you've been involved in the IPA and Market Research Society quite a lot. M. So you're probably an advocate, uh, of standards and the craft of marketing. Tell us a bit more about your passion in that regard.

Speaker A: I think it's twofold. So I think there is. There's a selfless part and a selfish part to that. Um, I think there's a selfless part which is actually giving back. So I think, um, being in a place of privilege, having. I've worked with some of the world's greatest brands. Uh, I've been privileged to work with some of the world's greatest agencies, greatest agency people. Uh, and so I have a few nuggets that I can put into thinking about effectiveness and measurement and insight and truth. Uh, and also often these programs look after younger people in the industry. And so you can perhaps mentor and give back in that way as well. But if I'm really honest, I think it's one of the ways I just keep learning. Because if you sit on any of those kind of, um, organizations, boards, advisory boards, any kind of group, judging panels, whatever it is, you meet the most interesting people that you learn most incredible things from. And so I find I give 10, I get 100 back. Uh, I always walk away from doing something like that. Just really, really inspired. I did some work with, uh, the White Pencil Awards last year, D and D. And seeing the quality of creative that the young guys were bringing with zero budget and clever use of AI Actually, it sort of embarrasses you into action as well and just makes you think, well, are we moving fast enough? Are we exploring enough? Are we. Are we curious enough about what's happening outside of the organization I'm currently in that we can learn from? So, uh, I think it's a bit of. A bit of both those things.

Speaker B: You come across, Tim, as really humble and willing to learn, and as you say, willing to do what needs to be done. I love your phrase, by the way. The most expensive career in London. That's great. But it always wasn't like that. And I think we've spoken before about your upbringing and, you know, particularly around when you tried to buy your first home and the sacrifices that then that came together to do that. Tell us a little bit more about that and how that's sort of those life experiences have shaped how you think today.

Speaker A: Yeah, I guess, uh, I am very determined and, um, But I was also sort of what you're exposing here is I've always been a little bit obsessed with property. Uh, and I. And sort of sound bites from people in my past have stuck in my mind. So the reason I was really, really determined to buy a house really young was. I remember at school in our PHSE lessons, which is a kind of life, I think we called them, life skills back then. I remember the teacher saying, there's one teacher at this school who lives in a house that is so much nicer than anyone else's. And it's because he clubbed together with a few mates at university and bought a house instead of renting. And this was kind of when property prices just never plateaued, never stopped going up. Um, and I became a bit obsessed with it and I was really, really determined to try and buy a house. I didn't manage it at university, but the moment I had a salary, uh, it was all I wanted to do. And there was a train strike. I walked to a different station. There was a little row of houses for sale in Wimbledon. Uh, and it said, we'll consider shared ownership. And it was kind of this. I'd never heard of what that was. But I got to work, I rang this number and said. And they just said to me, oh. They sent me through a floor plan. I could see there was a mezzanine level in the bedroom. And I was like, oh, my God, it's got sloping ceilings, Velux windows and a mezzanine. I just, I have to have this. Uh, and so I worked out if I took a lodger, I could just about afford the mortgage. And I went to Nationwide Building Society with, like, my version of a business plan. I needed £500 to sell, to put down as a deposit. That was it. I, um, had my mum's old Fiat Panda. I sold that, got £500, uh, that's all it was worth, and bought this house on a shared ownership scheme. Um, and I just, I felt amazing. I felt amazing. So just that kind of that moment of turning the key in the lock of your first home. Uh, and I couldn't afford furniture, you know, literally, I had a mattress on the floor. And. And I was so. Money was so tight at the time, you had to pay 50p for the evening Standard. And. And I think I had about £300amonth to live on. And my travel card was about 90. Uh, and so I only used to buy the Evening Standard on a Wednesday and a Friday because you got supplements. And so it kind of felt like good value on a Wednesday and a Friday. I think it was entertainment on a Wednesday and property on a Friday. Uh, and so that was my reading material for the week. I used to read every word in those papers.

Speaker B: And how do you think it shaped you today?

Speaker A: I know you sound really sad.

Speaker B: Not at all. But look, it's a complete story of determination as you described. But how do you bring that into today's context and how those early experiences have shaped you and how you think about your career and how you shape up your life?

Speaker A: Um, I think I really do believe if you can dream it, you can do it. Uh, and I've definitely had moments in my life of dreaming it and doing it. Uh, of course, not ridiculous stuff, but sort of not being constrained by, um, kind of what you've already experienced. Being prepared to perhaps be a little brave and take a few risky steps. So all of my friends think I make. I've had a few moments in my life where I've done bold, bold things that, uh, perhaps appear like they're big risks, but they're normally fairly well calculated and considered. But I think sometimes you have to take a chance. You have to be uncomfortable. You have to have those moments in the. In the early hours of the morning where you think, I just. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing. And then you let your mind percolate on it through the night, and you wake up in the morning and you scribble down the thoughts that you've got early in the morning. Um, so I think. I think the determination still sits inside me. Um, I still believe I'm kind of. I'm barely halfway through my career and. And there's so much I want to do. So I have grit and energy and determination. Um, but I don't. I don't always share that. That's, you know, I think because it's not. Everyone wants to hear about that all

Speaker C: the time, but I want to hear a little bit more about what you want to do for the second half of your career what's, what's in store?

Speaker A: Um, watch, watch this space. I mean so much. I mean I, I genuinely, I, I, I'd love to run a boutique hotel. I'd love to. You know, I, I wrote a book during lockdown that I've never had published. I've got a finish that and get that edited properly. Um, I think if I look at, if I look at where the heat and energy in the world is right now is obviously around AI um, and I think I want to get right into the center of that whirlpool and uh, be part of that next thing when, when the Internet was turning the world upside down, I went and worked for a dot com in New York and really enjoyed sort of firsthand working out what was valuable, what was noise, what was fluff, what was just nonsense. Um, and I see this as another one of those moments. I m really want to understand the potential, the power and then the role of humanity within that. Uh, so I see that as something super exciting actually.

Speaker C: Very good, very good. Back to today. Um, very global organization. Uh, it's going to be difficult to get coherence and cohesion. So how do you orchestrate across what must be a beast of a stakeholder management context?

Speaker A: Uh, it's really hard. It's really hard and I don't always do it well. And I think, um, interestingly, my boss's boss, she talks about the fact that sometimes the organization needs a prescription rather than kind of what it wants, which is quite interesting. So I think one of the things that you have to do in any role is work out kind of where the buck stops with you because there will always be some things that are ultimately your decision, uh, and really own that and, and be bold in that and kind of where it doesn't. So where you have to really work with other people and, and deliver a service. Uh, I like to think I have quite a service mentality sort of as a natural state. So probably the bit I've struggled with more in my career is actually owning sort of, and perhaps taking the time to really understand what is mine and where I can make a decision. And, and actually interestingly in Standard Charter, I think that's a lot, that's been a lot clearer. Uh, in developing our uh, kind of refreshed brand, our brand strategy. Um, it was clear that some of those decisions were mine. But then there were definitely moments where I thought they were mine. But then it turned out perhaps the business had a different view. Uh, so I think in an organization like ours, which is complicated, the stakeholder management takes most of your time, uh, engaging people, building relationships with people so that they kind of understand you and your motivations, your skill set, your. Your superpowers. Uh, and then trusting you with that as well takes, it takes time. Uh, somebody once said to me, everything changes when you've been with an organization for more than three years. Uh, people kind of start to think perhaps you're here for, you know, longer term and you're more committed, you're more actually, um, invested into this organization. And I think there's definitely some truth in that as well.

Speaker B: I love that notion, by the way. Three years doesn't seem like too long a time, but indeed, certainly in the context of today's timelines, maybe it does. Um, but in relation to that, I mean, clearly working across borders in different contexts and countries, what are some of the learnings that you've had around managing stakeholders from different cultural backgrounds?

Speaker A: Um, they're different. Right. And I think having worked in Insight for a long time in sort of you, perhaps more traditional segmentation models, for example, the conclusion always there is people are people are people. And actually in any market you'll find risk takers, you'll find people that are cautious, you'll find people that are, yeah, whatever. Um, when it comes to individuals and stakeholder management, people are different. And I think, um, if you, if you try and rush people, if you, if you don't respect kind of what. What's on their agenda, what they're trying to achieve, um, you can, you can lose what you're trying to do in the noise of getting that wrong. So I think understanding people, understanding. Well, firstly, who is important, who's the real stakeholder, who's the real decision maker, uh, what their motivations are, what they're trying to achieve, uh, and being respectful of that, uh, and particularly m. I'm working a lot with, uh, cultures to the east which are very different. And what is seen as respectful, uh, in Hong Kong, in Singapore, in India, is very different to what's seen as respectful in New York or London, where actually what's respectful in New York is only taking three minutes of my time. Whereas perhaps what's respectful, uh, in other cultures might be being interested in my family or, uh, actually sending something to me a week in advance that I've got time to consume it. And I think understanding how individuals work, how cultures work, uh, is really, really critical.

Speaker C: So, Tim, you've led big teams. I'm interested in your perspective on talent and what do you look for in talent? How do you nurture talent? That whole aspect is a key one.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, so a couple of things. I think what I always look for in talent is people that are different from me. Uh, and I always try and think in the team. I always try and think about what does this team need to do, um, and what are the different kind of pockets of capability that we need to build, uh, because no one's an all rounder. So I try and think very carefully about. I need people that have got attention to detail. I need creative thinkers, I need critical thinkers. I need kind of people that aren't scared to go in and say no. I need storytellers. I need, um, hardcore analysts and just sort of understand what that looks like and then be quite, uh, intentional about how you put that together. Uh, when it comes to talent, I think once I've got people in my team and also adjacent teams, I do really care, uh, about people. I love seeing people fulfill their potential. And um, and so I think I try and go a little bit further probably than a lot of people in understanding what's going on in people's lives outside of work. Some people might just accuse me of chatting a lot and uh, so being more interested in chatting than doing stuff. But I genuinely believe that when you understand someone and you understand what else is going on in their lives, you kind of understand their potential to give and how far they can give, but you also understand their ambitions and what motivates them, whether that's money or learning or moving up the hierarchy. And I think often just being able to demonstrate that understanding then enables you to a springboard their career for them in the direction that they genuinely want to go in. But it also builds a loyalty. Uh, and I really believe the kind of, I don't know who said it about people work for people rather than organizations. Um, I think that is so true. Um, I think the final thing is we spend so long at work. I think it's really important to have fun. And I think I really try hard to have fun at work with my people. Um, and my team would talk to you about this amazing time we had when I was at Barclays. We were, we were cutting all the, all the spend and we were only allowed, I think it was a 60 pound ahead budget for team off sites, uh, which is pretty impossible. Anyway, I sat down and thought, well, what do I think is the best thing that I could possibly do with my team? We want to have time to talk, we want to think about the Year ahead, but we want to have some fun as well. And I want to make this truly, truly memorable. And I had six direct reports, so I needed something for, for me and six other people. So I got a budget of 4, 420 quid. So I worked out I could get six people in my Land Rover. So I told them to meet me all at London Bridge and I booked us onto the Eurotunnel and I drove us across to the 2k. We booked a super cheap restaurant with a, with a fixed price menu, uh, that had a room upstairs they said we could use after lunch. And I bought kind of half a dozen kites and a couple uh, of games of Patonk and we played beach games all morning. Competitive kite flying. We went for lunch and then we planned the year ahead and I think we, and then we did a hypermarket challenge kind of on the way home, like a bit of a supermarket sweep. I think we came in at about 380 quid in total. That I think was just so much fun. I still remember it. It's probably my best team day ever. Um, but I really believe in having fun. I really think we spent hours and hours at work and I always say we can be doing really tough work, we can be having a tough day. But if fundamentally you're working with great people that you still have fun with, you can still have a great day.

Speaker B: Tim, it's been a fascinating conversation and so we're coming to the end of the segment here, so I'll pitch up the last question. You've had a fantastic career. As Mark mentioned, many, many roles and jobs, and as you suggested, some gone better than others. But there must be some mantras or career lessons that you hold dear that you've learned through that space and place and time. So what would be some of the things that you would say to someone who's perhaps starting out or just a couple of years into their, say, marketing career? What would the good advice be for this moment in time to help them on their way?

Speaker A: Um, I think the first one is work hard. I don't think really anything shines more brightly than someone who's working hard. Um, the second one I think would be say yes to opportunities. And probably the more kind of scared in your belly you feel about it, the more exciting it's going to be. The fourth one, third one I think would be, um, particularly in our area, get on stage as early on in your career as you possibly can. I think public, um, speaking internally within organizations, team meetings, whatever it is. Take every opportunity to present.

Speaker B: Get on podcasts.

Speaker A: Get on podcasts. Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, but, yes, get used to speaking out loud and thinking. And then I think my final one would be, um, be aware that everyone's got stuff going on in the background in their lives. Um, I think a couple of things. One is everyone's got stuff going on, and everyone's winging it a little bit. We're all figuring out life as we go, and I think when you remember that, it perhaps allows you to be a little more patient with yourself and with others. Uh, and I think that that makes us all slightly nicer people.

Speaker B: Love it.

Speaker C: Lovely note to end. Thanks for being with us today, Tim.

Speaker A: I've loved it.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Thank you.