#156 - Answering Your Management Questions

Speaker A: Foreign. Folks, welcome to the Managing with Mind and Heart podcast. I am your host today and my name is Ethan Nash. And we have a different type of episode for you today. And we are doing a little bit of a Q and A. So a few questions here. First question that we received from a Mr. LeBron James. Whoa. LeBron James. Whoa. Cool. Um, the question is, so what exactly do you do? Well, I'll tell you what Nash Consulting does. So essentially, and I'll boil it down to this. We help organizations become high performing and genuinely healthy places to work, because those two things should go together. And our belief is that that really starts with leaders. Leaders. Managers will use that term interchangeably here. And, um, you know, the reality is, is that a team is only as strong as the skills of the person leading it day to day. So our work is really practical. We focus on building real usable leadership and management skills, not just ideas and inspiration. There's, there's some of that sprinkled in, but things managers, uh, and depending on the type of work we're doing, really all team members can actually do differently and put into practice, like tomorrow or next week. Um, and at the same time, we help people do the deeper work as well. We help people work on their self awareness, uh, self reflection, mindset shifts, identifying blind spots, because that is what makes those practical skills stick. So thanks for the question, Mr. LeBron James. Next question here. This is submitted by an Oprah Winfrey. Um, don't know who that is. Must be a listener of ours. So why do so many teams understand concepts like trust in communication, yet still struggle in day to day interactions? Good question, Oprah. Um, I don't know. Next question. All right, just kidding. I have a few thoughts on this. All right, so why do t. Why do, why do. Yeah, you know, why do so many teams understand concepts yet struggle in the day to day interaction? So I think what the question is getting at is, well, you know, why. Why is there a gap between knowing how to do something and it, uh, going into practice? So my thought on this is that the reason is because agreement on concepts and ideas isn't the same thing as alignment in behavior. So alignment in behaviors is how we actually create what I would just call collective intelligence through developing a collective skill set. So teams will say, for example, hey, we want trust, we want, uh, good communication, we want psychological safety. And everybody nods their head and goes, yes, good, those things are good. But those ideas, like those are just words until we actually define what they look like. And the challenge is everyone has a slightly different definition or opinion on what that looks like in practice. So it becomes a bit of a wild west. So one person thinks that they're being respectful by just giving unsolicited feedback and being direct about it, because, you know, honesty is respect. Now another person experiences that same behavior as disrespectful, and now we've got friction, even though both people think they're doing the right thing. So I find that many teams don't bridge this gap between ideas and alignment, uh, on behaviors, so they stay at the idea level instead of getting specific about the behaviors. So the shift really is take those concepts, those great ideas, define them clearly in terms of behavior, and then break those behaviors down into their component parts. So. So they become skills we can all practice and hold each other accountable to. All right, so y' all like stories? Do you like stories? Good. I'm. I'm. I'm tell you a quick story. So in a, um. In a previous job, I had. I was in. I was in a management position, and I had one of my employees who kept getting feedback from his peers that he was being a jerk. All right? It's the feedback of, hey, you're being disrespectful. You're really hard to work with. You're being a jerk. Now, he was a smart guy and genuine, uh, genuinely a high performer. But people didn't want to collaborate with him, and the feedback he kept getting was basically, stop being a jerk, which, you know, isn't that helpful. So eventually it escalated to me, and so I sit down with him, and I asked him, hey, why do people feel that way? He said, I don't know. So I told him, honestly, I don't really care if you're a jerk or not. I don't even really know what that means. What I care about is that people want to work with you and that people aren't coming to me to complain about you. I was able to be pretty direct with him because that was his style. So then I asked, you know, what's. What's the opposite of a jerk? He said, uh, you know, I guess someone that's respectful. I said, great. So what does a respectful person actually do? And that's where things started to shift, right? So we started getting specific. He put on the table things like, well, I guess, see, don't interrupt people. Um, and they don't raise their voice. So I said, great. Write those down. Two behaviors to start putting in the practice. Don't interrupt. Don't raise your voice. And then I played along a Little bit with him. And we brainstorm ideas. And we landed on. Do airtime math, meaning you have four people in this meeting. How much of the airtime is yours? About 25%. So use about that amount. We landed on, hey, you know what, why don't you ask two questions before disagreeing with somebody? And we landed on, how about you just stay off your phone when meeting with other people? So all of a sudden, through this, I don't know, 45 minute conversation, he had five behaviors he could actually start doing. Now that is the gap I see a lot of teams have. We understand the concept of things like respect, but we don't necessarily have the skills or clarity on what that looks like in practice. So great question there. And again the punchline being we need agreement on things besides concepts and ideas. We need alignment on behaviors. All right, thanks for the question. Next question here, and this is by someone just titled Slenderman. Um, question. What shared team commitments most improve working relationships? When everybody practices them. All right, so in my view, there are five core skills that teams can commit to that will create the foundation for team success. Now these skills, they're not, they're not magic, right? They're not sufficient for team success, but I believe they're necessary and they're, they're really a great foundation to build on. But I think we need the foundation of these skills before we can start getting more advanced with our commitment to skills. So, um, these five skills are learn to listen in a way that demonstrates care and respect, by the way, even when you don't respect the person you're listening to. Number two, learn to receive feedback non defensively, despite how defensive you feel, because guess what, we're human and we're going to feel defensive when someone gives us feedback we don't like. Number three, give feedback in a way that keeps you connected relationally while also communicating clearly. Number four, give appreciation or recognition in a way that feels meaningful and do it often. Number five, when you have a problem with someone else on the team or a decision, learn some options for handling your angst in a productive way rather than spreading negativity into the environment. All, uh, right. Those are the five core skills. Listening well, receiving feedback non defensively, giving feedback with grace and clarity. Giving appreciation often in a meaningful way, and learning healthier options rather than gossip and negativity. Now these are relational skills, obviously, and they are in fact skills with component parts. And these skills, uh, they're, they're very, they're kind of like grease for the gears of your team dynamics. When they're being practice, our interactions, our dynamics are just much more smooth. When they're not being practiced, it's just like rusty gears, a lot more friction. All right, thank you. Next question here. When someone gives you feedback you disagree with, what should you actually do in the moment? All right, what should you actually do in the moment when you disagree with the feedback? Um, yell at them. Tell, um, them they don't know a damn thing about much. Uh, maybe cover your ears and go, na, na, na, na, na, na na. All right, so let's break this skill down, um, well into a skill set. So keep in mind, anytime we're taking a skill like this, which at Nash Consulting, we call adaptive skills, um, they have two parts. There are the mindsets associated with this skill and the behaviors. So adopting certain mindsets can actually help support the sustainability of these skills over time because we're shifting our mindset around this particular dynamic. And then the behaviors are what another person actually sees and hears. And for the sake of this, we're just going to focus on the behaviors. So before I fully answer this question, quick side tour here. Um, I want to share a study. Uh, so they did this study where they essentially, they took participants and they hooked them up into an FMRI machine, you know, brain scanner that's essentially measuring blood flow to different regions of the brain. All right? And so they're in this weird headset, and then they put them in a virtual reality simulator. And as they're in this virtual reality simulator, they have them walking down a dark alleyway at night. And as they're walking down this dark alleyway at night, they hear footsteps behind them really quick. Now, immediately in that moment, they see extra blood flow to the region of the brain where the amygdala is at, which is the fear center of our brain, among other uses of it. But it's. Let's consider it the fear center. So they're actually seeing fear in real time. Then they take these participants out of the virtual reality simulator, and they have somebody walk up to them and say, hey, I have some hard feedback for you on that experiment. And guess what they saw in the brain? Extra blood flow to the amygdala. Our brains can't distinguish between physical danger and social. Social, uh, danger in the first microseconds. Our brain doesn't distinguish between the two. Okay. M. So this is why learning to receive feedback non defensively is a critical skill to learn, because we can't just rely on our feelings in the moment to respond well, because we're Likely going to feel defensive, because defensive is an iteration of fear. It is a fear response. All right, and what is the message we give to people when we get defensive? When they give us feedback? The message is never do that again. And we can't afford to be giving that message to our colleagues. If we want a healthy team dynamic. And especially when, uh, we're in a leadership position, when we have a power differential, we get defensive. It's like, game over. I'm not touching that hot stove again. So how do we receive feedback non defensively? What are the skills that I can put into practice? The behaviors I can, I can put into practice that other people can see and hear? There are five steps. Someone's giving you feedback, critical feedback. Of course. The first step is listen. Like just listen well. And this means first off, don't interrupt. This is where defensiveness first starts to kick in. When you start to interrupt and push back before the other person has a chance to be heard. This also means like open body language, like not crossing your arms, looking closed off. It means like a head nod to show that you're tracking what they're saying, things like that. So you listen really well. First step number two, ask questions. Now have you ever given hard feedback to someone that they immediately start pushing back before they ask a single question? So ask questions. When you ask questions about the feedback they're giving A, it shows you're non defensive. Like, what is a better way to show that I'm open to your feedback than by asking for more feedback? So we're talking about questions designed to say, I want to understand this more, I want to get my head around this. Can you give me an example of that? Can you tell me more about that piece? Mhm. What did you mean by this? Those type of questions. And also when you ask questions B, it helps you actually understand the feedback. More often than not, I find that people walk away from a feedback conversation and the person receiving the feedback didn't quite walk away with the message that the giver of the feedback intended to give. So it helps you understand, helps make sure you're on the same page. And C, by asking questions, you buy yourself more time so you can figure out how to respond. So you keep the conversation open a little longer. All right, so step number one, you listen. Step number two, you ask some questions. Step number three is now I paraphrase or what we might call the I get it statement. So this is any version of communicating. I get what you're saying, I hear what you're saying. I Understand what you're saying. It's not the same thing as I agree with what you're saying, but I hear it, I understand it. Step number four, you are now at your choice point, and you have three options. You can agree with their feedback, you can disagree with their feedback, or you can stay neutral. Now, if you land on disagreeing with their feedback, it's really important that you disagree with Grace. It's really important that you know, for example, you first find the areas you can agree with before you land on disagreement. It means that we're not raising our voice. We're saying things like, hey, I see it a little bit differently. I hear what you're saying. Here's how I see it. We may just have to, uh, agree to disagree on this one, things like that. So you can agree, disagree, or stay neutral. And by the way, stay neutral has saved my bacon many of times. If you are a chronic disagreer like me, this is a great option. Just saying, hey, I'm going to sit with this, I'm going to think about that, then I'm going to get back to you. And of course, you got to get back to them. Step number five, thank them for the feedback. And thank you is a reward. In dogs, dolphins and humans repeat behaviors, they're rewarded. And yes, we might not love receiving critical feedback, so we don't necessarily want it repeated at one level, but we absolutely want to reward people for having the courage, for having the respect to give us feedback. So those steps, listen, ask questions, paraphrase, or give an I get it statement. Land on your choice point, Agree, disagree, or stay neutral, and then thank them. All right, great question. All right, next question here. Just a couple more. Why does feedback often backfire, even when the intention is good? Hmm. Well, um, I would say the primary reason that I see or have experienced myself when my own feedback has backfired is because we tend to slip in character words or judgment words, or rather than focusing on behavior. Okay, ah, you're being rude, you're being disrespectful. You're being fill in the blank with a negative adjective. Remember my story earlier about the guy that was being a jerk? All right? The guy was getting insulted by being called a jerk and disrespectful, because in his mind, that wasn't true. And it wasn't. It wasn't specific. It didn't actually communicate specifically what people wanted to see differently. I often hear in organizations or on teams, hey, we want to have a feedback culture, and that's noble, but without getting Good at delivering feedback. It becomes a wild west, and we end up doing the opposite. People are so burned by feedback that they stop giving it. No bueno, by the way. That's Spanish for not good, I think. No bueno. Anyways, in our workshops, we teach, um, the BIR method. Um, this is. So I'm just going to keep it simple. And, um, there's. There's a few other behaviors and skills to learn along side this. But if you got bir, you're well on your way to giving good feedback. So BIR stands for behavior M Impact of that behavior and replacement behavior. So behavior is things that can be seen and heard. The impact of that behavior is the real impact that behavior has had, or it could be the potential impact that it would have if this behavior continues. And then replacement behavior is just what you would like to see instead. All right, so when we're giving someone some critical feedback, we focus on birth state, the behavior, the impact of that behavior, and the replacement behaviors. So let's come back to my guy, my guy from earlier from the story. What were the actual behaviors people were seeing that they interpreted as jerky? Is that a word? Jerky. Anyways, interpreted as being a jerk or disrespectful. What were the actual, actual behaviors that people were seeing? Well, he was raising his voice at people. He was disagreeing with people's ideas and comments before even asking any questions. He was texting when other people were presenting. All right, those are actual behaviors. Those can be seen and heard. All. Huh? Right. Now you see how different that is from having character judgment words thrown at him? Now, in this case, let's be real. Like. Like, honestly, those beh. Uh, you know, those things that I just described, those are disrespectful behaviors. I mean, that's what I think. They're disrespectful. So it's important that we don't get caught up on what's true and what's untrue. What's important is that we focus on what works with the other person hearing the feedback, understanding it, and actually changing behavior, because that's the goal, to create behavior change. You are literally insulting me by using a character word. By the way, which one is more true? You're being a jerk and you're being disrespectful, or you're talking over people raising your voice and texting while other people are sharing ideas? Now, I can object to the former of being a jerk, but I can't really object to the behaviors that were described because I know I did them right then and there. All right, so that's all about the b. The behavior. Now, the impact. What would be the impact of this guy's behaviors? Well, he was shutting down creativity, he was shutting down ideas. Um, people didn't want to work with him. That's a real impact. And what are replacement behaviors? This is a good opportunity for you to get curious with the person you're talking with and start brainstorming replacement behaviors. Right? So we're act. We're figuring out actual behaviors that he can do rather than just stop being rude. So B I R. Behavior. Impact of that behavior. Replacement behavior. All right, next question here. I've heard you talk about giving positive feedback as a skill set, but positive feedback seems simple. So what is there actually to learn about doing it? Well? All right, um, first, m. I'll just point out that research shows that the most effective teams give far more positive feedback than critical feedback. And that's not due to a lack of critical feedback. It's due to the fact that there is just a ton of positive feedback. So I would agree that at some level, maybe we shouldn't overthink giving positive feedback. Like, just do it. If it's going to create kind of a paralysis by analysis for you, by, you know, trying to break it down into a more specific skill, maybe don't do it. But when we think about what we're actually trying to do when giving positive feedback, it changes how we give it. If our goal is to build up other people's confidence, to encourage people to repeat those positive behaviors or outcomes, um, to demonstrate care. If those are our goals, we should think about recognition as a skill set rather than defaulting to the standard, hey, great job or awesome work. All right, now, one way to think about giving positive feedback is to take two different frameworks. We have BIT and we have bic, BIT and big. Our two friends here. Let's start with our buddy, bit. BIT BIT stands for Behavior Impact Trait. So when we're giving positive feedback, we're sharing the behavior which shows them. I saw. The behavior. We share the impact of that behavior which demonstrates or shows them that that mattered. And then we provide kind of a, uh, dialogue on how this speaks to a character trait which tells them, I see you. So, for example, the behavior. Hey, you know what? Thanks for staying late to troubleshoot the system. All right, now, the impact that kept the team from missing a key deadline. Now, the trait, that's just another example of your commitment to excellence. Now, when we give it this way, the Praise is more likely to be remembered and it actually helps reinforce their identity as someone committed to excellence, which increases the likelihood that they will become more committed to excellence. I'll give you another example. So again, behavior impact and trade. Hey, you know what? You handled that complaining customer like a pro. They left smiling. And you know what? We love happy customers. You know what I've noticed? You have a real talent for turning challenging situations around. This kind of phrase sticks, folks. It's meaningful and it feels real and it feels earned. So that's all about bit. Let's talk about bit. Same thing. Behavior impact. But now we're adding curiosity. So, quick side tour on, uh, curiosity, um, curiosity is like steroids for human connection. Now I want you to imagine the situation. You have a dinner party at your house and you've just built, uh, a new shed in your backyard. And to one of your guests you say, hey, uh, yeah, I, you know, I built this shed, uh, back there over the last couple months. And that person goes, whoa, that looks really awesome. Good work on that. Now that probably feels nice, but not super meaningful. Now m you share the same thing with another person and their response is, wow, that's really cool. It looks really nice. Why did you decide to build a shed? How did you figure out how to build it? How did you map out the blueprint? What was the hardest part about it? What came more easily to you? Now of these two people, who are you going to feel more cared about or cared for, Care from and respect from the person that demonstrated curiosity. I'll say it again. Curiosity is like steroids for human connection. When we give praise and then we get curious about this person and their performance, it's, it's inviting the other person into metacognition, which is thinking about our thinking. I mean, so often when we achieve success, especially in a fast paced environment, our inputs, our behaviors, our mindsets that led to those successes aren't necessarily within our awareness until we reflect on them. And when we start to unpack the how on how we got to our successes, well, now we have the information we need to repeat that performance in future situations. And that builds my confidence. So with bic m talking about the behavior you saw, talking about the impact of that behavior and then exercising some curiosity, we demonstrate connection to that person. We help them unpack what led to their success, which helps them repeat that in future situations. And we're helping them build their confidence. And I think that's beautiful. So again, don't overthink positive feedback, just do it. And if you want to take it up a notch. Focus on bit, the behavior impact and character trait. Or BIC Behavior impact and curiosity. And of course, these can be combined. Name the behavior, name the impact of that behavior, talk about how that speaks to one of their traits, and then exercise some curiosity. That's a really cool, um, combination. All right, last question here. Actually, we have two more quick questions. Um, this question is, how can leaders move a team from understanding these skills that you talk about to consistently practicing them together? As a. I'm going to keep this simple. What you repeat, you get more. What you measure, you get more. What you reward. Wait for it, you get more of. So repeat, meaning continued practice and review of the skills that your team is working on. I'm talking about monthly or better yet, weekly. Take one of the skills, review it, role play it, discuss it. Okay? Nobody changes because they went to a, uh, training once or heard a podcast once. It takes practice, practice, practice, repetition, repetition, repetition. So carve out time in your group gatherings systematically and regularly review this stuff, because this stuff matters. All right? And then measure M. Like, our performance reviews are also based on us putting these healthy relationship skills in practice. What you measure, you get more of and reward. As a leader, especially as a leader, don't miss out on an opportunity to give public recognition when you see someone put these skills into practice. Culture is based on the things we publicly reward. Uh, the reasons we promote someone, and the flip side, the reasons we demote someone or even fire someone. Okay. M. Those things that happen on your team are what people learn to repeat or to not do. And that's a big part of culture. So these commitments to these skills that you're working on, they should be part of this equation if you want. If you want them to become the culture. All right, last but not least, someone asked, hey, where can we hear or learn more about your ideas and stuff? Well, for me, personally, um, you can find me on LinkedIn. Um, I will post, uh, a link in the show notes to my LinkedIn. Um, I'm almost never promoting any services or anything on my LinkedIn. My goal is to share short tidbits of ideas that has. Has really helped me as a manager and leader and has also helped those that I coach because I really do believe that skilled managers, I mean, it's incredibly important for building teams and cultures where people feel good about working. Um, and you know what? We spend so much of our time at work. It should be. We should, we should, as managers, strive to make it the best experience for everybody. And that takes skilled leadership. And I have a lot of, uh, lessons learned. The hard ways that I share on my LinkedIn, um, posts, videos, things like that. Um, if you're interested just in more of Nash, uh, consulting specific stuff, go to our website. If you look at the tab that says the cool stuff, uh, we have a blog there. Um, we have, uh, uh, with. You can sign up for our newsletter. So, uh, um, yeah, check that out as well. Anyways, thank you. Hey, if you have questions you want me to take a shot at in the future, feel free to email us. Um, you can just email us atcontact ash consulting.com and I'll give your question a go. All right, everybody. Thanks.