#168 - If Adults Could Talk to Adults

Speaker A: Foreign. Everybody. Welcome to the Managing with Mind and Heart podcast. I am one of your co hosts, Michael Nash. And, uh, with me today is one of my very best friends in the world, Ethan Nash. How you doing, Ethan?

Speaker B: Hey. Hey, Mike. Hey, everybody. Uh, how am I doing? I am doing well. I am excited for this conversation. I am jazzed to be on the show.

Speaker A: Well, yeah. Well, good. Me too. I've been looking forward to this. Do you realize that I have known you. I just. This year, I've known you for half my life.

Speaker B: Really?

Speaker A: Yeah. That's a long time.

Speaker B: That is a very long time.

Speaker A: And I still still really like you.

Speaker B: Oh, that's. Oh, that makes somebody. That's good. No, but, uh, yeah, I think that makes it so. I have known you my whole life at this point.

Speaker A: Your entire life? Yeah. And I. It's probably fair to say in the most literal sense, I've made you who you are today.

Speaker B: Ah, really? Yeah.

Speaker A: But only in the most literal sense of the word, so.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Any event, I digress. Half.

Speaker B: Half of the credit for that.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker B: What are we talking about?

Speaker A: Well, here we are. Yeah. You know what? Let's get to work. I. I wanna. I wanna. I wanna. I wanna kind of posit a concept here with you. I've been thinking about this. Um. Ry, I was with clients over the last few months, and this came up, and it's kind of turned into a mantra for me. I believe that if adults could talk to adults about things adults should talk to adults about, we could solve most anything. What do you think about that?

Speaker B: Let me make sure I got that right. You think, you posit. You have this wild, harebrained theory that if adults could talk to other adults about the things adults should just be able to talk to each other about, we could solve almost anything.

Speaker A: I do. I agree with that. I mean, I believe that. Yes. Yeah, I really do believe that. Yeah.

Speaker B: In the workplace, absolutely. I would agree with that. Probably we could talk philosophically, even broader than that. But, uh, yeah, like, if we could just say the things we needed to say, hear the things we needed to hear, address the things that we needed to address, I think we'd be able to work through and accomplish just about anything. So I'm with you.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now you're right. We could. We could get global, we could get philosophical, and it. It may still hold true in that sense, but let's stay here at work. Um, I. You know, and I do want to say before, you know, it sounds a little it sounds tiny bit tongue in cheek to say it that way. Like, oh, it's so simple. You know, I, I know that's reductive. It's a really reductive way to say something that's actually quite, uh, difficult. You know, it's, it's a simple concept, but it's not easy. Right. It's, I mean, it's, we're talking a pretty heavy lift when you think about all the roadblocks, all the things that are in the way of people actually being able to talk to each other. Right. So it's, it's not an easy thing. Um, and that's why, I don't know, I think we spend in our work. I'll, I'll ask you what, what percentage of our training topics or our training time would you say is focused on some version of helping people talk to each other, helping people communicate?

Speaker B: Uh, well, first off, I hate the percentage questions. Don't ask me a percentage question. That's really hard for my little analyzer brain to parse that out. Um, but I'll humor you here. How much of our work. I would almost say 90%. I don't know if that's high, but that's most of what we do when we drill it down. It's like, you know, at the, at the human level, how do we make sure we're communicating with each other, having the skills to have those conversations with each other? I mean, there's systems and process stuff, but even that, I think is in the service of helping people have the conversations.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So 90%. At least 80.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm with you. No, I'm with you. I actually thought 50% when I first thought of this. And then I kept thinking about, you know, training people how to have one on ones and the individual, uh, success plan and the progressive conversations and that, running a good meeting and, you know, I mean, communicating the decision making style you're going to use and receiving feedback. I mean, it's like, you're right. It's like so much of what we do is helping people learn how to actually talk to each other.

Speaker B: I mean, even if, you know, when we do kind of organizational assessments, organizational health assessments, I mean, we're helping provide them, um, the context for the conversations this organization or these leaders need to have with each other. Right. That's, that's kind of part of what we're doing there. So, yeah, we help. Yeah, adults talk to other adults about things adults should talk to adults about. That's actually our New slogan that works perfectly on a billboard.

Speaker A: Well, don't go too far. But yeah, you know, and it's. And again, it's. Again, that's a really reductive way to say it because every. Not only are those skills that we're referring to, um, you know, they're high level skills. Right. They're not. They're not necessarily always intuitive or things we just know. So it's a lot of skill building and as I said, there's a lot of roadblocks in the way and um. You know what? I'm sorry, I want to interrupt this just for a second. It just occurred to me. Do you have that edited document that you were going to get to me today? I just realized it's the day it's due and I need it. So you ready for that?

Speaker B: The edited document? Oh, uh, yes, I remember. Uh, do I have it? No, no, I um, don't. That's. Yeah, sorry, I totally slipped my mind. I was uh, as you know, I was a little. Got a little bit of a cold this week and fell a little behind. Uh, don't have it.

Speaker A: Okay. Totally get it. Yeah. I mean you, you have been feeling gross and you've been super busy. I totally understand that. A couple things. Can we just establish kind of renegotiate it real quick? I need to know. Let's. Let's talk about when you think you can get to it. I've. I'd love. I really do need it like kind of hard stop by the end of next week, but I'd like it before that. What.

Speaker B: What works for you, I guess, like so you need. So you need it by like, like the end of the day Friday next week.

Speaker A: That's when I kind of full stop needed. But if I could get it a day or two ahead of that, it would give me some time to work with it and refine it a bit.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you what, I'll put aside time on Tuesday so by Wednesday morning next week you'll have it in your inbox. How's that work?

Speaker A: That's great. I appreciate that. And um, if. Just another note on that I'm m going to just mention if, if you find that that's not going to happen, something comes up. I guess what really matters to me is that you let me know ahead of time. Like we've committed to, you know, kind of get ahead of that by win if you know you're going to miss it because then I don't get jammed up and I can make Plans and make sure I don't miss my buy winds and et cetera. Does that make sense?

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, yeah, I got you. I gotcha. Yeah, I'll, uh, I'll work on kind of tracking what I need to get done and. Yeah, ah, get, get ahead of that. That's, that's on me.

Speaker A: Appreciate that, man. Awesome, dude. Thank you. Appreciate your, your openness to that conversation. So that was conflict. We just had some conflict there and, and uh, we, you know, people. Yeah. Um, in fact, we not only had conflict, which is really just a simple idea that, you know, we're going to have different wants and needs or we're going to want something more of or less of from somebody else or, or we're going to have different opinions. Like, like conflict itself as you know, is, is just a thing, right? It's super normal, it's super common. It happens every day. It's not a problem. The problem of course becomes when we, and how, how we do conflict. Right? And we, I think we just, I think you just received that feedback really well. I feel like that went really well. That was a really good job, I think, of us dealing with conflict right there in real time, would you say?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I would say so. Um, and I like your definition or kind of how you're starting to define conflict here, right? It's, it's. We think of conflict and we hear, you know, conflict is a part of human nature and, and then, you know, it almost feels like there's a negative connotation to that in many cases. There, there are. But if we can just understand that conflict, when we define it as needing to address, ah, a misstep, needing to give a little bit of feedback, needing to have a conversation about something we might not see eye to eye about. That's all.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Part of what we need in order to, you know, achieve something. Right. And um, achieve our goals. Um, and I would also just say that, you know, not only is, um, conflict kind of a part of, of human dynamics in, in the workplace.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But it's also just. Sorry, let me, let me take a step back. What I'm trying to say is it's not just a matter of conflict can sometimes go wrong and it's unhealthy and that's the problem. It's also, we won't even do conflict at all. And that's also a problem. So that's, that's a while to, to get out. But, uh, you know, 25% less capacity

Speaker A: today, FYI, for the man who doesn't like percentages. It's 25%. Right, right. Gotcha. Um, yeah. Okay. So that, that was actually really well said because, you know, you're right, it is. It's not, it's not just the fact that we have conflict, which is a, uh, no big deal thing in, in and of itself. It's how we do conflict. And then, as you're saying, are we actually willing to lean in and just deal with stuff? And that brings us back to, man, if adults could talk to adults about things adults should talk to adults about, we could sol thing. And when you think about what just happened there between us, what we just modeled, I mean, it really touches on a lot of aspects of what we're talking about here today. Number one, what are some of the roadblocks to people talking to each other? Right. It's. I mean, I'm going to give you one, which is fear of conflict. Right? I mean, that's, that's probably. I would say that's probably one of the primary reasons people don't talk to each other is because it's just, frankly, it's scary. We've all have our own past experiences with conflict. We have our stories about conflict. We have our own conflict styles. We've been hurt in conflict before. We, um, like to have peace. We like to have harmony. And so, you know, the idea of giving someone feedback or disagreeing, you know, or having a hard conversation with an employee, it's scary, right? So, I don't know. I think that's one of the main reasons we don't talk to each other

Speaker B: or even, you know, even addressing like this little role play that we did. Even addressing kind of a missed due date, a missed, you know, by when. I mean, we both talk to people. And, and I've even been here myself where it's just like having that conversation might turn into something way bigger or they might start pointing out my flaws or it's going to break the relationship. So there's. There's a fear. I mean, the fear. We can. We can name probably 100 different reasons why someone might fear conflict. Um, but it's. I think that's probably one of the root causes why it gets avoided. Um, I think another reason is we don't have. We just don't have the, the skills. Right. Maybe we don't. Maybe it connects to fear, but maybe it's just like I. Something is not working with the way me and you are working together on maybe a task level. But I'm not even sure how to give that feedback to you in a way that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I feel like I can say it clearly and confidently and doesn't raise your defenses. So not having the skills. Another reason.

Speaker A: Yeah. And along those lines you might not, the other person might not have the skills of receiving feedback non defensively or you know, we might not have the skills of having progressive conversations. So I'm with you. In fact I, I would say, and if there's others that occur to you, please speak into this. But I feel like there's three main reasons we don't talk to each other and I think we've got two of them. Is it's scary on all the levels that you said, right? Not fear of conflict, fear of the relationship breaking, etc. Etc. Fear of the other person's response. Right. So it's scary. Number two, we don't know how we haven't been equipped with the skills. And then number three, we haven't in a, in a community of people or in an organization, we haven't actually made commitments to certain behaviors. We haven't, we haven't set norms. Right. We haven't said, for example, hey, if you're going to miss a by win, let's agree, you know, you're going to get ahead of it, you're going to say something. Right. We haven't actually set those expectations. Um, or another one would be, hey, we're not going to triangulate about others, you know, that's not what we're going to do here. You know, so we haven't set those up. And so to push back against somebody or give some feedback is so much more difficult when we don't have a shared set of expectations.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really good point. It's, it's almost like the, the, the system might not be set up that promotes the ability for us to have those conversations.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And like you said, there's not norms, there's not expectations. Um, maybe there's not a clear performance standard for certain things. Right. And it's like, right when those expectations and norms and standards are communicated in place, they're clear. That gives everybody more of the freedom of permission to have the conversations they need to have. It's like, hey, we all know we're going in this direction or this is how we want to handle things. So now it becomes more of a, a reminder, more of getting each other on track.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Feeling more really subjective. I get my subjective feeling is that you should have gotten this to me, uh, or you should have renegotiated the due date in advance. Right?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah, it doesn't, doesn't work. Yes, we have shared expectations.

Speaker A: So yeah, it becomes, it makes it, it takes it out of the personal. Right. It takes, it doesn't become this personal thing between us. It becomes more of a, ah, a systemic or a reminder like you said. I think that's exactly right.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, again it becomes some of these things can become like, not always, but some of them can become actual objective things as, as far as subjective things. We know that this is, was our, was our goal, for example. Uh, it was a clear goal. We didn't hit it. Now we can just have an informed conversation about why that didn't happen as opposed to there wasn't a clear goal and now we're just like, I don't know. Right. It just is, it's much harder conversation. So.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. And then, and then I want to take those three, you know, those three um, reasons why we don't talk to each other. Fear, lack of skills, lack of common commitments or expectations or norms. Right. Take those three things and kind of stack them up a little different and say, you know, if we're, if going to help an organization to overcome those three things, we're probably not going to focus in on the fear first because in reality I would say it's the other two things that will help alleviate the fear in most cases. Right. So if we all have skills in talking to each other and receiving feedback. Well, and all these things. Right. That alone is going to, that, that by, you know, that's going to alleviate a fair amount of the fear because we feel more equipped and we're less afraid of, you know, horrible outcomes. And then of course like you said, if we have the norms and the uh, agreed upon expectations, it makes it less scary because it's not personal. And then all that's left is whatever residual fear is still there in each person which does require some self awareness, does require, you know, looking at where that fear is coming from. There is a, frankly, there is an element of courage. Mhm. That is involved in healthy human relationships.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Huh huh.

Speaker B: You know, just made me think. And we've talked about systems thinking a lot on this podcast and we've talked about the waterline model. And maybe we'll link to a article on the waterline model, um, in the show notes. Um, but it's almost like it's the same concept. We have expectations which we can consider that kind of setting up the structural and group process level. Um, and then a level below that is kind of the skills Our interpersonal skills with each other. And then a level below that is kind of the, you know, fear. And that's more kind of like intrapersonal, how we kind of relate to and manage, um, our own feelings and emotions, uh, and adaptive skills related to that. And so it's almost like there is a. There's. You can do these all at once at some level, but there's kind of a sequence to these. Start with expectations, then build the skills, and then also we can all look at our own personal growth around this stuff.

Speaker A: What do you think? Yes. Uh, I know that's. That's, that's profound because it's. It's exactly an example of the waterline model that if we, you know, we make things healthier on the upper levels, it trickles down health to the lower levels. It's a lot easier for somebody to summon their courage. Uh, you know, intrapersonal, when I've been trained, when there's expectations that we all agree on. And what happens, of course, is if we're not careful, leaders, managers, even consultants. Right. Can come in and they can get it backwards and they can, you know, basically you can just go in and say, okay, everybody, you all need to have more courage. We're going to create a culture of feedback, and we're all going to talk to each other and, you know, go do that. And if you don't do that, you're being a coward and you're not doing your thing. And you, you know, you shame people because they're not doing the thing. It's like, well, wait a minute. It's a human condition to be terrified of conflict. And you've given me no skills and no expectations and no norms. You know, it doesn't work. It just. It's a setup for failure.

Speaker B: Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Um, I think it might be interesting to just, like, talk about some of these, you know, skills or expectations or things that we could actually do. So adults could talk to other adults. Um, are you ready to go there yet?

Speaker A: Yeah, let's. Let's do both. Let's take a few minutes or a little bit on time and the actual commitments, expectations, and then talk about maybe what some of the skills would be.

Speaker B: Sounds good. That sounds good. So when. Question, uh, for you, I mean, when you're thinking about, again, if we're looking at the. Setting up the structural level or the group process level. Right. Kind, uh, of engineering the system so adults can talk about other adults, what are kind of our big levers with that? Like, what would we want to do to set the stage for healthy conversations and healthy conflict.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, and to be clear, some of these are a little bit hard to separate from the skills themselves. Just to keep in mind that as we talk about these structural things, they all take skills to do. So there's a little bit of running together of those with the skills. But, um, well, one that, you know, some, some pretty structural things would be. For example, um, we're gonna, we're gonna have a monthly one on one. We're gonna, we're gonna set this up as a, um, as a, as a norm and we're gonna, you know. Now the skill piece, of course, is let's train managers how to make those really helpful and really effective and do all the things they need to be doing there. But, but we're gonna have this kind of built in context time to, you know, to talk about what we need to talk about.

Speaker B: Yeah. In fact, all we could, we could even say all expectations or structures or group processes all have skills attached to them. Right.

Speaker A: Um, yeah.

Speaker B: So that makes sense. Right. So as an organization, leaders, people leaders will have regular scheduled one on ones with their employees. Okay. So now we're creating the forum to be able to have maybe more of the conversations that, that we should be having with each other.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah. And, and, and on a, you know, just on a kind of a detailed look at that, just a small example of why that helps is, um, let's say we do have some feedback for one another. Manager to employee, employee to manager. Man, it's a lot easier to bring something like that up in this regular time that we're together anyways, and we've been building relationship and we've been building trust as opposed to, hey, come see me, you know, that scary come see me thing, or, uh, you know, oh, uh, I got to approach my manager with this thing and it's so scary, you know, so just that structure and that norm and that habit of having that time together will alleviate some of the fear.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, agreed. Maybe a couple more examples at the, at the structural level. You know, we, in our leadership programs, we talk about, uh, the individual success plan, which is, you know, cousin to one on one meetings. Um, but it's like, hey, you know, whether, whether quarterly or whatever it might be, we have a process where I sit down with each of my employees and we talk about, um, hey, what's the focus for this period of time? You know, why it matters? What's the expectations for you? What's the equation? What does success look like? And now again, we've Created the conditions to help pull each other back on track because we're clear about the direction that we're supposed to be going for this, uh, period of time. That would be another example. Lines of communication, you know, would be. Would be another.

Speaker A: Say more about that one.

Speaker B: Yeah. Just like, hey, as an organization, here's who talks to whom about what. Um, this again, helps create the conditions for the conversations we need to have. Um, is it, Is it. Are we clear that when, you know, an employee skips their manager and goes to their manager's manager, does that manager of the manager know what issues they should really be dealing with and making sure that they're not dealing with issues in a way that undermines the manager?

Speaker A: Right. Yep.

Speaker B: That would be another example.

Speaker A: Yeah, another. Another cousin. Another cousin to the one on ones is, you know, here's that department that I manage, and there's that other department over there. And our departments work together in many ways. We're sort of mutually dependent and there's tension, which is normal. Um, we have, you know, we have limited resources and time, and so we're not always getting what we need from each other. And that creates. It could create. And it, you know, certainly does create some negativity and, you know, etc. Well, what if me and Deborah over there, who manages that department, what if we got together every month and just checked in with each other and talked about the roadblocks between our departments and made that a normal conversation and, you know, what do we. What do you need from us and what do we need from you and. Right. I mean, that is an amazing ability, uh, to. Or an amazing opportunity, I should say, to make those hard conversations just not so hard. Right. Just normal.

Speaker B: Yeah. I love this. Again, it's like while we're thinking about the skills that our organization needs to build collectively to be able to talk to each other about the things we should talk to each other about? Let's look at the commitments, the norms, the structures, the processes. Are those in place so those support them. Right. Um, your organizational processes and norms will always, you know, beat good intentions.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It's like that's how systems and organizations work at some level.

Speaker A: Yep, yep. There's another one that would. I would put in that category. And although it could look like it's a little bit lower on the waterline, um, common commitments, actual common commitments in terms of how we are going to show up to one another. That's. That's, in a sense, a structural thing. We've made commitments. And so, for example, um, in this organization, we don't badmouth our colleagues to one another. Instead, we do one of these other, these other five healthier things. Now imagine how much easier it is when somebody comes and starts badmouthing a colleague to you. How, how much easier it is to ask them to not do that. If you've already created a set of common commitments around this, right? If you, instead of it, instead of having to say, hey, stop it, you're, you know, that's rude. I don't want to hear it. You don't have to be that direct. You could say, hey, remember that, you know, commitment we made? I think this is triangulation. You know, let's, let's not do that because we made this commitment not to do it.

Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. Again, it's, it's, it's. When those norms are in place, we all committed to. It becomes way easier to have those conversations. Right, Right. Yeah, I guess. You know, I would, to give another systems analogy, like a, like a family system analogy here would be, um, you know, one parental figure kind of saying, hey, we don't, um, we don't complain about, you know, whatever it might be. Like, let's not complain about, uh, about, you know, these type of things. Right? But then the other parental figure, they kind of, it doesn't matter to them. And then we have mixed messages and it doesn't really become, it's not going to probably become a norm in the organization. So it's, it's, it's everybody at that in the whole family system getting on the same page of being like, hey, this is a commitment in our family that we don't, we don't complain about

Speaker A: whatever this might be. Um, yeah, yeah. And some of these commitments and, and structural commitments are going to be leadership, uh, management centered only. Some of them are going to be broader and kind of more common commitments with the organization, with all the employees. But either way, right, you start with this idea of, of norms and commit that. I think that's the first step. And then that's married to, let's talk a little bit about, you know, what, what would these skills be like? There's, you know, it's one thing to have commitments, but if I don't know how to do the thing, then it's still going to be a setup for failure. So, for example, how many.

Speaker B: Can I just, sorry, say how many? No, you know, as a way to bleed into this, like how many organizations or teams have you worked with where you look at their, what they might call their team charter or something like that. And it's like, we give and receive feedback. Well, and it stops there. And everybody has a slightly different interpretation of what that might look like.

Speaker A: Totally.

Speaker B: Right. It's like, yep. Or, uh, here's. Here's even broader one we see, which I like, by the way. It's like we treat each other with respect. Great. I love that. But then we all have slightly. Given our transference and our life experiences, we have a different understanding of what respect looks like. Cultures play a factor into that as well, you know, so it's like, hey, maybe respect for me is like, when you got a problem with me, you tell me now in the moment, and that feels like respect to me. But for somebody else, it's like, that would feel very disrespectful. So we actually have to get on the same page with what that looks like. The best way to do that is actually talk about some of the skills and practices with that. So.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, that's exactly right. Yeah.

Speaker B: Bringing those kind of expectations and putting the skills to actually make them work and get on the same page with those skills.

Speaker A: Yep. I've told clients for years that, you know, if you walk into a meeting room and the, uh, poster on the wall says, you know, be respectful, nobody walks in and reads that and goes, oh, yeah, I got to not interrupt today. I just don't, uh. People don't translate, you know, unless there's actual behaviors that we've agreed to and then been trained on. It doesn't. You can't just say, be professional or be respectful. Right. Uh, it doesn't mean anything, so.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, but let's. Yeah, let's talk about some of these. Maybe I kind of call skills and practices together, and they're going to interrelate with each other, but, like, let's talk about some of these. Maybe kind, um, of big bang for your buck. Skills and practices that were just. If they were expectations across the team organization, that would really help us have the conversations we need to. We need to have. And maybe let's start with the. The kind of example we gave towards the beginning of this episode about kind of, uh, talking about a due date and. And by when. Um, can you speak to that one? What is that? What were you.

Speaker A: What were we. Yeah, it's. Well, it's a. It's a good place to start because it is such a. It is such. At least, um, right up front, it can feel like such a remedial, elementary thing, you know, Are you just talking about being responsible? You know, getting your stuff Done when you said you're getting it done. Yes, but it's not that simple unless you agree to a set of commitments. And the commitments and the training, like you said, go hand in hand here. Like you. I mean, if I ask you to do something for me and you agree and I, you know, tell you, you know, you can get to it whenever you want, you know, just whenever you get to it, Ethan, that's fine with me. Um, where's that going to end up on your to do list?

Speaker B: M. Um, maybe not even on it at all. Or towards the bottom or it keeps getting pushed further to the bottom.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because. Because I haven't, I haven't given you any deadline. We haven't agreed on anything. And so that's fine and dandy until, you know, two weeks later when I want my thing and I come ask you for it and you don't have it. And now I don't trust you now. Right. There's been a break between you and I because you were supposed to get me a thing and you didn't. But in reality we had no agreement. Right. And so you establish together a by when you negotiate it until it works for both of you. You know, that upfront conversation is the really proactive piece of being, you know, to creating a culture that um, where people are responsible and accountable and are building trust with one another in terms of follow through is right. You know, upfront, you establish your by win. Um, you do your best to meet your buy wins. Right. If you and I have agreed and negotiated it and got it settled and you know, that's on you now to do what you can to meet it. But of course real life happens and you're going to miss it and you've got to come let me know ahead of time that you're going to miss the buy win. And what's cool about that is that builds a ton of trust. It tells me that you had it on your radar, that you were taking it seriously. So it's just distrust building to get ahead of the buy win and renegotiate it as it is to meet the buy win in most cases. Right. Unless it happens over and over and over again. But that practice right there, just that simple commitment to everybody committing to those behaviors is a really good way to move the needle in terms of trust and respect and productivity and getting stuff done. Mhm.

Speaker B: Yes. So in this organization we use buy wins. We give a buy win when we're asking someone to do something. If we don't get a buy Win, we ask for one, we can negotiate them. If you're gonna fall, if you're not gonna hit your buy win, you get ahead of it. I love that. By the way, we'll link to the episode on Buy Wins in the show notes if you want to dive deeper into that one. Um, but let's keep, let's keep rolling with these.

Speaker A: Yeah, let's, let me give you one. Let's do one that's a little bit more, I would say maybe interpersonal. I would you agree that one of the reasons we struggle with maybe giving somebody feedback or you know, calling them out on something that we need less of or more of is the fear of their response.

Speaker B: The fear of their response to.

Speaker A: Yeah. How they're going to react, Giving feedback.

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I think that's probably one of the main drivers for a lot of, a lot of people. Right? Um, yeah.

Speaker A: So, you know, you can walk in and say, hey, everybody, stop being defensive. And like you said earlier, that's, you know, that's, that's, that's not going to work. So, so what are we gonna, what are we gonna do?

Speaker B: Sorry, I was. I've learned that also doesn't work in my, uh, with my, with my wife. Uh, either if I say, you know, don't get defensive or stop being defensive. That's a sure fired way to make someone really defensive.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's even better when you say it before you say, hey, you know what, don't take this the wrong way.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Don't get defensive, but. Right.

Speaker B: I, uh, mean this with all due respect.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's a good one. Yep. Um, so training somebody, you know, training a group of people, training a coaching client in how to show up non defensively. Could you speak to that for a few minutes?

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I mean there's a, there's there's a lot that, that goes into, you know, the skill of receiving feedback non defensively. And this is an adaptive skill which we've talked about a ton on these, these episodes. And there's, that means there's both, uh, kind of an internal journey to the skill of being non defensive. Like the internal journey that will actually help you over time actually feel less defensive. And then there's the external journey, which is regardless of if I'm feeling defensive or not, but especially when I'm feeling defensive, here are the actual behaviors, the things that can be seen and heard by someone else that will help me show up non defensively despite how defensive I might be feeling. And uh, you know, just to, just to maybe focus on some of the behaviors right now without trying to get into all of them. It's like, hey, when someone is giving you feedback, um, let's just start with really good listening skills and meaning, like, don't interrupt to start with like let them talk. I have kind of general open body language so your arms aren't crossed and you look, you're kind of looking non defensive. Right. Um, maybe some head nod to show that you're tracking what they're saying. Not necessarily you're agreeing with what they're saying, but you're tracking what they're saying. So really good listening skills. Um, let's, let's practice that. Let's, let's start with that. So that would be the first one that I would come to when it comes to receiving feedback and showing up non defensively. But what else?

Speaker A: That's great. Yeah, maybe, um, ask a few questions before you push back or make an excuse or give a counterpoint. Like just dig in, be curious. Like again, I don't have to agree with you. Ultimately I don't have to accept your feedback. But the point here is if you feel heard, if you feel seen, if I'm showing you that I'm really doing whatever I can to understand you, that is going to make me appear way less defensive, that's going to make you feel more respected, that's going to make you feel more heard, that's going to build trust and respect between us. Right? So curiosity, hey, can you give me an example so I can understand? Um, can you help me get that? Um, and then when I get it, make that clear that I get it. You know, hey, is this what you're saying? And maybe paraphrase it back and you know, maybe even try to say it back to them at least as well as they said it, but maybe even better than they said it. Um, you know, make, just, just make it really clear to them that you are attending to what they're saying and that your interest, interested, that you're curious. And after all that, you know, you can have a conversation about, you know, which parts do you agree with and you can, you know, you know, etc. But I think that, that the key is, is showing up openly, physically with your words, with your body language, etc.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you marry all of those behaviors that the other person can see it, see and hear with a few kind of mindset shifts that you're working on when receiving feedback. You know, for example, thinking about feedback as, you know, information that you can kind of Receive and you get to choose what to do with. And just remembering it doesn't have to define you. It's not who you are. You get to decide what you want to do with. It just kind of helps you get your amygdala out of its uh, state and into more of a, you know, I can, I can more hear you and, and receive this information because I know that I get it. I have some autonomy with how, you know, what, what I do. Information that's coming at me.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. And there's other mindsets that we might work on and, and talk about. But imagine um, yeah, just everybody on a team or an organization that's working on both those mindsets and as they're working on those mindsets because they don't happen overnight. We're still committed to practicing those skills of listening and curiosity and you know, uh, uh, paraphrasing, you know, what you're hearing.

Speaker A: That's a. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Thanking them for the feedback, you know, all that and, and you know, imagine training people in that, um, helping, getting them to practice it, you know, getting to memorize the skills and then like you said, setting that as at least a, a ah, kind of a loose expectation that this is how we want to show up as, as people in this organization. Right. That, that's, that's and, and, and and then sustaining that over time. Reminders, reviews, lots. Again, there's. As you were talking I couldn't help but uh, I did bad listening. As you were talking I was thinking about what I was going to say next. So that's a thing to not do.

Speaker B: Um, we all do a little bit of that. Bring it back. Right. That's, that's the skill.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the reminder there, you know the skills about listening. Right. I mean what does it look like to listen so the other person feels heard, you know that that would be a skill set. Um, we mentioned earlier the skills of having a really good one on one. So it's not just a check the box or it's not just a tasky, you know, how's the project going, but a one on one that really meets needs. That's a skill. Um, how to correct employees behaviors over time, how to have that first conversation, how to have maybe a second or even a third conversation if the first one or two conversations weren't effective. That's a skill. And people don't get into organizations or get into management just magically and naturally knowing all these things. Right. It's skill building that really counts over Time.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, totally. Um, a couple things just again to give a few little gifts to our listeners here. So we'll link to the episode about receiving feedback non defensive in the show notes. You also reference what we call progressive conversations as a manager. Uh, right. Not kind of camping when the same behavior keeps showing up. We did that recently. We'll get to that in the show note. And just real briefly, um, if you know all of these different practices and kind of systems pieces and skills that we're discussing here, if you really want to deep dive into this, um, consider signing up for our online public offering of our Managing with Mind and heart workshop. It's 11, uh, week, uh, intensive and it's well worth it. Thousands of leaders have gone through it. And so if you're listening to this episode in the year 2026 before actually we'll just have, we'll always be running this more or less. So go to our website, Nash consulting.com and uh, consider signing up for that. Um, but let's get back on track. Where do we go from here?

Speaker A: That's great. Yeah, maybe just a couple, maybe list a couple more skills that relate to our, you know, if adults could talk to adults, um, about things we should talk about. Uh, how about something as basic as, um. I don't know if any of our listeners remember the decision making model that we've talked about here a few times. Um, the ability to, first of all to learn about the six different ways a leader might decide something, um, and then how to navigate that. And the conversational part of that. The, the I wish we could talk to each other part of that is man, employees just want to know if they're influencing or deciding. They want to know which it is. Are we able to communicate that? And then do we know how to, uh, let's say we're using what our decision making model dubs a style three. Right. A style three decision is a decision that I'm going to make. But I'm going to make it in part. Absolutely. Based on data that I gather, including from you and from my team. I'm going to ask people their opinion. And there are ways to have that conversation. There's ways to ask that would make it way more likely that I'm going to get information and get people's opinions and there's ways to ask that would make it less likely that I'm going to really hear from my people and that won't feel as psychologically safe or won't give people enough time or enough um, information. So you Know, again, we don't need to get into that necessarily. But I just, it just, it just keeps occurring to me that almost every skill we teach has an element of people needing to talk to one another. And there's a skill set underneath, a knowledge set, skill set that undergirds each of these. Mhm.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. And I, yeah, there's, there's so many. Right. More than we can even possibly covered an episode like this. But I mean, we talked about SPA or single point accountability. Right. This is another call to practice, um, and a commitment that will help people just have better conversations with each other. It's just making sure that there is, well, a single point of accountability for projects, tasks. Like, we know this is the person we're going to go to to get information, to ask questions as opposed to people going off in different directions. And you know, it becomes a little chaotic. We haven't even, I don't think we've even talked about, um, giving feedback in a way that is designed to, oh yeah, people's defenses while still communicating very clearly your feedback. And we'll link to the episode about the, uh, Birch model in the show notes. But in brief, why don't you just go through at least the bir of giving effective feedback?

Speaker A: Well, yeah, and I'm glad you remembered that one because I. That's like way up at the top of the list. Like receiving feedback, giving feedback, listening. I mean, these are, you know, it's kind of like the trifecta right there. Those three skills and this. And, and it completely fits into our theme here today of being able to talk to each other. If I learn how to actually ask for what I need, if I need something less of or more from you, if I learn how to do that in a way that lowers your defenses and keeps us connected and respects your dignity as a human being, so much more likely that we're actually going to be able to have those conversations and they're going to be effective. Um, so the bir of giving feedback. I need to talk about behavior as opposed to character. Uh, and I know that seems really obvious, but you know, I'm not going to say something like, hey, I feel like you're being irresponsible, Ethan, or that wasn't very professional of you to not give me that report. Right? I mean, those are, those are character words, right? You're not being respectful, you're not being professional. You know, you're being rude. Like, those are not words that will ever be helpful in these conversations and they will just trigger your Amygdala and create defensiveness. And instead I just want to get right to the thing. Hey, you know that report, um, that was. That was due today, right? That's. That's a behavior that you. That you. You didn't have the report. And so we start with B. Start with behavior. And I had a person in class recently say, yeah, so that means you can only talk about people's behaviors, like how they act. And I. And people, I think, get stuck on this sometimes. Everything's behavior, right? Everything is behavior. Like, you know, showing up late is behavior. Not doing quality work is behavior interrupting.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, right.

Speaker B: Like anything that you could possibly give feedback on is based on something you saw or heard, essentially, maybe smell, but either way, it's a behavior. Okay, so.

Speaker A: Yeah. Or something you didn't see that you wanted to see, but in advance. Yes, it's. See here. Right. That's exactly right. And then impact. It's, I think, impact, the impact statement or statements really does the heavy lifting. You don't have. You don't have to go to. Well, and that's, you know, here's the behavior and it's unprofessional, or here's the behavior and it's. It's rude, you know, that, that it might be true. But that doesn't make the point. It doesn't help the person hear you. Right. But what really helps the person get it is you help tie the behavior to the impact of the behavior. Right? And so, hey, when the. When I, When I didn't get the report from you, or when I. When you're not, um, on time with by wins, here's some of the ways it jams me up and it might impact our clients. Right? So there's. There's a behavior and impact statement, and you can often just be there. You, uh, know, if you're. Again, if you're giving that feedback with respect, with care, with, you know, respecting the other person's dignity, you're not, you know, not using a mean tone, not yelling. If you're. If you're using good interpersonal skills and sticking with behavior and impact, it can really do the whole job right there. And occasionally you might want to add. Or, you know, often you might want to add the R, the replacement behavior, if that's needed. If it's not implied, you know, you know, here's what I would like you to do instead. Now, today in our little role play, we, you know, we went there. Hey, it'd be really helpful if you would, you know, get ahead of the buy When? Mhm. Let me know. Right. So B I r. That's how we give feedback.

Speaker B: Yeah, bir, absolutely. So if adults could talk to other adults about things adults should talk to other adults about, we would be a really healthy, effective workplace. And again there's, there's so, so much more. How about the ability to just disagree with each other? And again that comes down to something that's happening in the structure, in the system as well. Um, you know, for example, as a leader, um, as team members even. Are we creating psychological safety? Right. Have we, have we kind of laid the foundation where it's at actually safe for employees to say hey I, I don't agree with that approach or I think we should go do, you know, try a different direction. Um, you know, are we.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: That comes down to some of these skills. Have we received feedback non defensively as a manager? Have we kind of acknowledged our own mistakes? Have we set up, you know, regular processes where we're asking for feedback? Have we, you know, you know there's a bunch of things that goes into that, that. But then yeah. Disagreeing with each other. Can we, can we clearly speak our mind and say I disagree with that without it, you know, without insulting somebody. Right. What's you know, being able to disagree with the idea or the task as opposed to, you know, kind of the person and get at their character or something like that? Um, yeah, a lot goes into this. A lot goes into this.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's skill building, it's commitments. And then that last piece is then our willingness. Right. Our. It does. There is still always going to be an element of courage. There's going to be an element of, you know, courage. And I think what can help the courage, I mean not can. Does help me to summon my courage is the relationship. Right. What the relationship that I've built with the other person. That if there's, the more there's trust there, the more we've shown each other respect, the more we've listened. Well, you know, I have then kind of to your point, that has created more psychological safety in that relationship. So it's easier for me to summon my courage. I don't have to get as much courage up. Right. To have that conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well, very good, very good. Well, this has been a fun and wide ranging episode but with a very specific focus. And again like this is at least in my opinion, I'm imagining your opinion as well. Like these are the type of stuff that makes a workplace function at the highest level. Obviously you need other things, things that are going to be helpful and good strategy and, you know, you know, a bunch of other things. But even those type of things depend on our adults able to have the conversations with each other they should be having. So this is kind of the, the baseline stuff. And again, it's, it's maybe simple, but it's not easy to build. Uh, but it's well worth the time and effort. So, folks, I have again and linked, we've linked to a bunch of resources in the show notes. We've linked to our Managing With Mind and Heart online workshop to really learn and deep dive into these skills, either as an individual or as a leadership team. Encourage you to check that out. Besides that, good luck having adult conversations with, with other adults. Tune in next time. See ya, everybody.

Speaker A: Thanks, everybody.

Speaker B: Buddy.