Refocus: Flexible Leadership with Kevin Eikenberry

Speaker A: In a fluid environment, leadership flexibility comes from a greater willingness to get uncomfortable. In this refocus edition of the Leadership Foundry podcast, Kevin Eikenberry challenges a common assumption. Flexibility isn't about reacting faster. It's about letting go of what feels familiar. The leaders who adapt best are those most willing to stretch, listen and adjust. Staying effective in change often requires doing the counterintuitive thing first. Check out the full conversation with co host Brandon Smith right now on the Leadership Foundry podcast. This is the Leadership Foundry podcast. I'm, um, your host this week, Brandon Smith. And today we are going to talk about a critical element of leadership, particularly for all of the changing environments been finding ourselves in. That just seems like the new normal. We're going to talk about flexible leadership. And so to guide us on this journey, I've got an amazing guest, Kevin Eikenberry. Kevin Eikenberry is the Chief potential Officer of the Kevin Eikenberry Group, a leadership and learning company based in Indianapolis, Indiana. Uh, he is, uh, I've had him on my podcast before. He is a wealth of knowledge. Uh, he just recently started speaking of our topic today. Just recently launched a brand new book, Flexible Leadership. Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. Just came out this year and our conversation is going to be all about that. And I can tell you I truly loved our conversation. So I really want you to pay attention to not only how he defines flexible leadership, but some of the, uh, inspiration and hints and tactics he gives us on how we can start to be more flexible in an ever changing world. And as always, stay tuned to the very end of the podcast. I'll summarize my notes. Uh, and I hope you get as much out of this conversation as I did. Kevin, my friend, really excited to have you back on the show and to spend time with you. Excited mostly not only to just spend time with you and our conversations always have a nice, uh, active, lively vibe. But you've got a new book, so I'm really excited to dive into the book. Flexible Leadership. Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. I love that, I love that. It's fantastic and so needed today. So before we dive into this excellent discussion around how we apply that as leaders, uh, for listeners that maybe aren't as familiar with you or maybe their memory of our last show is a little rusty, uh, refresh folks on not only who you are, but what got you into the leadership space in the first place.

Speaker B: Yeah, my name is Kevin Eikenberry and I lead a company called Creatively the Kevin Eikenberry Group that's a team of folks spread out across the United States. And, um, in my career, I've had the chance to work with leaders from 53 countries. And, uh, we're in the business of helping leaders be more effective, uh, to serve their organizations, their teams, their team members, and ultimately the world. We believe that when leaders are more effective, we make the world a better place. And that's why we are in existence. And that's why I believe I was put on the planet.

Speaker A: Okay. Wow. So, uh, I'm just curious as a. As a recovering therapist, uh, where I still wear my therapist hat on occasion, uh, what was that spark for you that said, hey, this is what I should go do?

Speaker B: I don't know that there's a moment. I mean, I think there are some through lines. Uh, I grew up on a farm, as you know. Uh, I grew up on a farm. And so I grew up growing things. And, uh, I went to college at Purdue and studied biological systems and mechanical systems all around growing things. Uh, and then it wasn't too long after that that I found that where I. What I really needed to be doing was helping to grow people and doing training and development kinds of work. And from then I realized what I really figured out, Brandon, was that where I was at my best, uh, and where I. Yeah, where I was at my best was when I was teaching or helping people learn things that applied both personally and professionally almost at the same time. And that's what leadership is. I wrote in one of my books a number of years ago something along the lines of, I should actually go look it up, because I say this all the time. I don't know exactly what I wrote, but what I wrote was basic, basically this. Um, as we become a better leader, we become a better human, and vice versa. So we are in the leadership. We're in the business of helping leaders get better. And in doing that, I think we're helping people become more effective, happier, more satisfied, uh, have better relationships, etc.

Speaker A: And what I love about you kind of bringing. As we become a better leader, become a better human, and vice versa. And it immediately makes me think about my own journey as a human and a father and a husband and all those sorts of things. Uh, and it'd be wonderful to say it was a nice linear path. No, So a lot of thing is

Speaker B: linear paths, except in mathematics, right?

Speaker A: Yeah. Or if you. Or if you step back from something far enough. Yeah, if you go far enough back, it looks linear. When really you get close to it. There's A lot of, uh, waves. Wave signals up and down. So, um, I think. And then that's a nice segue into the book because I think it's all about being able to adjust to some of those peaks and valleys in life and different situations. So before we dive into the actual meat of the book, because I've got lots of questions for you, um, tell me about why this book was so important for you to write. I know you've written so many other books prior to this one. What was the impetus for this one?

Speaker B: Well, as time has gone on, um, I felt like there was something. This is a bold statement, and I'm going to back up and say that, you know, I. I stand on the shoulders, uh, uh, of a lot of folks who've helped a lot of people be more effective leaders. And really, if you don't think about military, if you just think about, uh, the world of work that we've been studying leadership between between 100, 120 years. And I've been involved in that for 30 of it. Ish. And so that means that, uh, I've had the chance to rub shoulders with, get to know and study and learn from a lot of the folks that did a lot of the stuff that got us to this point. And yet, at the end of the day, there's a whole lot of leaders that aren't really getting better. And the state of leadership development is. While there are tremendous ideas, the state of leadership development is not really all that fantastic in the big picture. And so I spent a lot of time thinking about why that is. And. And I think that there are some things that we have. We, the creator, the collective we of folks that do the work that we do have maybe missed a little bit. And that. Or that the things that we've created with tremendously good intention haven't necessarily, um, had had the outcomes that we'd hoped for. In other words, there have been unintended consequences. And so this book is to help un. Ravel some of those unintended consequences which end up being huge barriers for us to be more effective leaders. And those words in the subtitle. This is probably the book that I spent the most time on figuring out what the title and subtitle would be and so navigate uncertainty. We got plenty of that in the world now, more perhaps than ever, uncertainty and complexity. And to do that with a level of confidence, not a confidence to say that we're going to. We're going to take the uncertainty away and be certain, but that we can be. We can have a degree of certainty about our ability to navigate it. Right. We can't get rid of the uncertainty. That's not the goal. The goal is, given the uncertainty, what can we do that can help us be more effective and help our teams be more effective, too?

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. As you were talking, immediately made me think of a story kind of a retired lieutenant general had shared with me in the military world. And you've probably heard this acronym before, but the acronym is vuca. Uh, and it's. It's volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. Just describes the world today. The world's too vuca. It's too volatile, too, uh, uncertain, too complex and too ambiguous. And I think that you're really speaking to that point. And so in that noise, you know, how do we. How do we navigate? So, okay, getting into that, I would say.

Speaker B: And I. I only use the word vuca, I think once, or at least only once. Only in one chapter. I don't know if I actually. It's actually there more than a one time. But, um, I say we need to move from VUCA to fico. And not our credit score, but flexible, intentional, focused on context, uh, and focused on our organizational goals.

Speaker A: Okay. So I was going to dive into the book, but now I got to dive into that context. What do you mean by context?

Speaker B: Well, context is a huge part of this book, right? So here's the thing. Um, if I, If I tell you as a listener or viewer, if I say, hey, I'm going to put you in the wilderness and I want you to get out back out to civilization. This is not a reality TV show. This is just a thought experiment.

Speaker A: I'd last about 10 minutes, but.

Speaker B: You'd last about 10 minutes. Well, but if I put you, Brandon, in, uh, uh, the world of this and say, you can get out, there's a way to get out. Um, what's the first thing that you want?

Speaker A: Oh, gosh, I'm in the wilderness. Uh, I guess water would probably be.

Speaker B: Okay. So fair. Water's fair answer.

Speaker A: Maybe. Maybe navigation or you want a map.

Speaker B: Most people say, well, I want my phone.

Speaker A: So, yeah, the reason they want their phone. Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Is for a map. Yeah. We want water. Yeah. Again, this is not a reality TV show. Like, uh, I'm not saying you're gonna die. I'm just saying you want to. You want to get out, which means you need to know which way to go.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: You need to know how to proceed. And most leaders, most of the time, are operating largely on autopilot. I've Done this a bunch of times. This is how I find this situation. Human beings good at pattern recognition. This is the pattern. Take this action. And so my question would be to everyone would be this. If you're, are you, are you leading the same way that you were five years ago? M. And if you are, I can promise you you are less effective today than you were five years ago because the world is not changing in a way to conspire to make you a better leader. The world is changing. The world is complex. The world is more complex than it was five years ago, two years ago, 12 years ago. Forget the five year number. And if we're not ready to notice the situation, the context, and say, oh, given this, I might need to take a different approach. So here's the trigger word. Um, so first of all, I'm asking you. To be a flexible leader means to consider something other than your natural approach. Your learned behavior, your habit, your routine, and what you perceive as your leadership style. We can come back to style if you want. But here's the reason that tells me that I know everyone is actually capable of doing this and this thing that I call being a flexible leader because there's been a time someone's come into your office virtually or in person, uh, and they, or, or you've been thinking about, and they've asked you a question. They've, they've wanted some advice, they've wanted a decision. They wanted, you know, to you to, to give wise counsel or you've been thinking about a situation yourself. And in that moment you say, well, what I do next depends on. What does it depend on? Well, what it depends on is the context of the situation. So like the idea of a map is to say if I could. And in the book we talk about, uh, a framework to help you think about this, to think about the situations that you're in in a slightly new way to say, get. If this is the, what the situation is like, I need to head this direction. If this is what the situation is like, I need to hit this direction. But going back to that it depends moment, if I'm having that it depends moment and I stop and, and I consider the possibilities or the complexities of what it depends on, and I'm willing to at least consider taking action that I'm not as comfortable with. I'm not. Haven't done as often that I don't know if it's going to work or not, but I think it's the best choice we have. Then you're willing to be flexible that doesn't mean that every time, it depends, you can't do what you've done 44 times before. It means you're willing to consider and actually doing it another way, given the context.

Speaker A: I love that. So I've got a question for you on that. But I want to share an observation that reminded me of a. I heard a quote one time. It was a famous major league baseball player, Greg Maddox, hall of Fame, hall of Fame pitcher. And he used to say, he'd said, um, arguably one of the best pitchers. Not throwers, one of the best pitchers of all time. And they ask him, they said, what's the difference, Greg, between a good and a great pitcher? He said, good pitchers, when they get into trouble, they throw harder. Great pitchers, when they get into trouble, they throw softer. Which I think is such a great way to kind of think about what you just said. Like, do what maybe sometimes you have to do what's not natural to you, which I think is so, so critical. So, Kevin, here's my question.

Speaker B: True, that's 100.

Speaker A: True. Yeah. And which is, again, it's counterintuitive. We're going to do what's not natural. Um, but maybe what the situation warrants. So if there's no map. Okay, so let's take a, let's take a practical, real example. Uh, today I think a lot of people are trying to figure out what is the impact, breadth and depth of AI in the business world, for example. Right. That's a, that's a big question mark. No one really knows. So.

Speaker B: Good example of uncertainty and complexity.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, this is going to take over my job. Is it, you know, are we talking like Terminator movies? Is this, is this just a great way to write emails? What is this really going to do? So when you, when there is not a map, what, using that analogy, uh, building on a little bit, what compass do you use? What other kind of natural do you look for? Where the sun sets and rises? Uh, you're trying to find water. I mean, what do you do in situations like that?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I would say that absolutely fits on the framework or the map that we introduce in the book. We have borrowed from, uh, the work of other folks, including Dave Snowden, who created something called the Cynefin framework. And so the Cynefin framework is based on complexity science as a way to consider what kind of situation you're actually in. And there are four basic, uh, places that your situation could fit into. Um, and we're using it different than Dave in that we're using it to think about not just big things like what about AI but also about the daily things like what do I do differently? Or what might I do differently in this moment based on the context. So the Cynefin framework is the context map that we would talk about. So here's the first thing I will say about all of the AI stuff that, all of the stuff that people are writing about. So I want to give everybody some perspective. Uh, everything that people are writing about AI in terms of, oh my gosh, it's going to overturn the world, everything's going to be different, um, is not significantly different than what was written in the 1840s about railroad m hm. And it's not significantly different from what was written, uh, let's just say in the HR or the human development training and development world was said, training's all going to go away because we're going to have CD ROMs. The world is going to end because we have the Internet. And so there was, in all of those cases there's all these great possibilities and there's all these big, big worries. So the first thing I would say is keep in perspective that while, and this is an important principle that when things are changing, we focus only on what's changing when not everything's changing. Right? Uh, human behavior is not really changing, group dynamics is not really changing. Context of those are changing, right? Where we work has changed, for example, but the nature of human beings not significantly different. M and so it's important for us as leaders to remember what's not changing, which is a lot, and know that what is changing matters. Right? But just like if you're leading a change, the focus ends up being about all the stuff that's changing and people Forget that like 80% isn't changing. And if we will literally tell people, hey, this isn't changing, this isn't changing, this isn't changing, this isn't changing, their anxiety level with what is changing will start to drop. And the same is true for this. But if we want to go to the, to the AI conundrum, the AI worry machine, uh, the AI wonder machine, uh, that we are living in now, I would say it fits in the Cynefin framework in the area of complexity, which means that there are unknowns that are unknowable. And if we're in, if we're in a situation where there are unknowns that are unknowable, what do a lot of people do? Well, a lot of people try to ignore it. They try to be an Ostrich put their head in the sand, they try to wait it out, they try to close their eyes and wish for something better, or they just barrel forward the way they've always done. In a world of complexity, none of those are likely going to be the best answer. What's the, uh, what's likely the most effective answer? Start trying stuff. Start trying stuff. And don't. And don't try one thing. Like, a lot of times we say we'll try something, experiment, and what people do is we try this one thing, and then that's our thing. No, no, no, no, no. We need to try this. We need to try this. Like, so in our organization, we're trying and using AI both behind the scenes, in the, in the, the doing of our work, as well as how we work with clients, as well as how we, um, curate content for clients. So, like, we're using it in a variety of different ways. And we're finding. We've already made a bunch of mistakes, like we're finding out experiments and what we're trying to do is learn as we go. And that's the best thing that we can do as leaders in the times of complexity. And the challenge is that as leaders, often, um, we were, we became leaders, we got promoted because we were really good at something. We had a lot of subject matter expertise. And so we hold this mantle on ourselves of, uh, we're supposed to know stuff. We're supposed to know not just stuff, but a lot of stuff, like all the stuff, like, and, and in a world that would be where it's clear in a world that we were much more likely in 15 years ago, where best practices reign supreme and process improvement is the best way to move forward. And oh, by the way, we pretty much know what the cause and effect is and everything. And like, there's a lot of knowns that are known. That's not what we're in now. So to try to treat this like that, which is exactly what people did, uh, coming out of the pandemic, they said, okay, we're coming out of the pandemic, so we need, we need to do what we've always done. We're going to build a new policy. Policies work great in times of clarity, and you can see how policies have worked in a time of complexity. Right. Not very well.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: And I've been saying, just specifically as it relates to, um, you know, where we're working and all that stuff, I've been saying for several years that the answer is not policy. The answer is Pilot, Pilot.

Speaker A: Pilot. Pilot. Pilot.

Speaker B: Pilot. Find the things that work best in your organization. It's probably not one single thing. It's probably not, uh. It's not the best practice of the other people in your industry, necessarily, because there's too many factors for us to consider. And a lot of leaders have figured out that policy that they thought was just the way we've always done it. We'll just create a new policy. They've seen how it's not working, and it's created all sorts of unintended consequences.

Speaker A: Right? Yeah. Kevin, I think you might be talking about courage.

Speaker B: Well, there's a courage factor. Right. So in order for us to be a flexible leader, I believe context is a part of it, but there's a piece in front of that that's intention. Am I willing to consider doing it another way?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I have to understand, I have to have a why for that? Like, why does that matter? Um, and then I have to see that, in fact, um, flexing is a good idea. Because here's what. Here's where people stop right away. People will say, oh, flexible sounds really good, but aren't I supposed to be consistent? Aren't I supposed to be stable? Aren't people supposed to want to. Aren't supposed to. Don't they want a leader that they know what they're getting? Well, we need to be consistent in our principles, values, and, uh, and purpose. But we need to be flexible in our approach.

Speaker A: Okay, so let's just go ahead and repeat that again. That's really important. So we want to be consistent in our values and our principles and our purpose, but flexible in our approach. I think that's really, really important distinction, which. I don't know what you've seen, but I can tell you, you know, a lot of leadership. I had a, uh, mentor of mine years ago who kind of was an academic in space, and she said there's. I never did ask her what the five were, but she said there's really just five ideas. They just. They just come back. But. And we're in kind of a down period with culture. No one's really talking about culture. I mean, they're talking about where people work. Are you working at home or working virtually? But that's not culture. That's just where people are working. So I love the fact that you've brought back kind of purpose and principles and values. I think that's really, really important. Uh, and I think that's key. But going back to this idea of, um, being flexible, uh, if I channel Listeners right now, I've had several folks say to me, yeah, I love the idea of innovation and design thinking and beta testing, but my leader says there's no room for error. I can't make a mistake. Uh, there's no, like, hey, well, we tried this, boss, and it didn't work. But we're trying something else. There's no absolute room for error. So when you have leaders with that kind of pressure, like, you cannot fail. They're in cultures where, uh, everything's so lean, there's so much pressure and anxiety, no room for failure. How do they, how do they navigate in that space? What, what coaching or counsel might you give them?

Speaker B: Well, first of all, I would say that's not actually the real world. I mean, I know that's the real world that they're feeling like. I know what you're saying people are saying to you, but, uh, unless you're gonna have a bunch of AI robots, humans make mistakes. And that same organization that says they don't want anyone to make any mistakes wants people to grow. And if you don't make mistakes, you can't grow. It's not possible.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair. That's a great point. That's an excellent.

Speaker B: Right. So, so here's the thing I want to say about all this. Like, you asked the question about flexible and AI and all that stuff, and that's a big thing. And we can talk about being flexible on the big things, but really where what this comes down to is how do I do I lead my meeting today the way I've always led it? Is there something going on in our team or in the world or in the context of, of our situation that says I need to lead this meeting differently, I need to have this one on one differently, I need to make a slightly different decision than I'm used to that I'm comfortable with. Like, what does the situation context tell me and am I willing to consider that the way I've done it before in this moment might not be most effective? So we can think about that. And you use the word courage for the big stuff, but it takes courage to do the little stuff too. And at the end of the day, this book is about all of those in the moment, day to day things, not just the, uh, great big strategic things. And even if you're leading in an organization where you feel like the pressure is really on you. Right. For the results. Well, if you want to get better results, don't you have to try stuff?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, you can't just push Harder. So that doesn't mean that you have to go out and say, well, we're changing our overall strategy on this product. Mix in the moment and then have someone looking it down on you, scolding you, mentally or otherwise. But rather, like, how. How do I lead my meeting differently? How do I. How do I interact with my team differently? How do. What do I do? What could I do differently that would build more trust with my team members right now? How do I give. How might I give feedback differently right now, based on the context of the situation?

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker B: What does it depend on? It goes back to that. It depends. Question.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And so maybe my head's just, um, on baseball today. It sounds like we're adding more pitches. So the beautiful thing is we're not. We're not saying we're never going to throw a fastball again. We're going to learn other pitches we can throw. We can always go back to the way we did it if the context warrants it, but we're going to learn other ways to approach the situation. So we have, you know, four or five pitches instead of just one.

Speaker B: I'm watching the clock, so I know we don't have a lot of time, but I have to make this comment because it's a really important one. Right. So here's the thing. If that pitcher, if their identity is as a fastball pitcher, Yep. It's extremely hard for them to develop new pitches. If, as a leader, you've got a Myers Briggs type, you got a style type, you got a disc style, you got a color of animal, you're a facilitative leader, you're a servant leader. I mean, like, again, I said at the beginning, like, all that stuff is really useful, but it's only useful to a point. And what we've done in many cases is taken a model which is meant to. To simplify a complex world enough for us to get our arms around it, and then we strip all of the nuance out of it and say, I'm a D. I'm an enfp, I'm a fastball pitcher. And so it's hard enough to change a habit. It's a lot harder to change an identity.

Speaker A: I think that's a. Again, great mic drop moment. Excellent. I love that. I think that's such a great point. So, uh, as we start to kind of land our plane, uh, so I think you've done an excellent job on selling all of us on the importance of building more flexible muscles. If folks say, all right, you know, I want to get into this pool. I'm not ready to jump into the deep end of the pool, Kevin. I want to kind of get into the shallow end. What's a good. What's a good starting place if folks just want to try out this a little bit? Uh.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: And where, you know, the stakes are lower, a little safer, but. But impactful. Where. Where. Where can folks start?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's that. It's that. Listen to your voice when you say it depends and then stop long enough to ask, it depends on what? Consider that context and then be willing to try something different. Because, listen, leadership is all about influence, right? We're trying to influence outcomes, and we're trying to influence others because that's what leadership is, reaching valuable outcomes with and through others. So all we're doing is influence. So if I'm going to make a decision, I really need to think about, like, is this decision the best way to influence outcomes in others? Right. And so I got multiple ways I could go about doing it. What's the one that gives me my best odds? It's like thinking in bets, right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and so that's what I would say when you. If you want a single thing that you can do today, it's the next time you. Because you will say this. Well, it depends. I don't. It depends. Well, what does it depend on? Don't just go past that and do, well, let's do it this way. But rather say, well, what. What are the factors here that we ought to consider? And given all those factors, what's the best thing for me to do?

Speaker A: Yeah. So the. The last question to add around that. Um, I know one of the challenges for most leaders is everything feels urgent all the time, and folks are just running from thing to thing to thing. They're not stopping and thinking before they're. They're just doing. And so you used the word intentional earlier. I think I might have been part of your FICO score. I think was. I think. I think the I. So. So there's an intention behind this. So I'm gonna really try and help our listeners out if. If we can today. How much time does it take to just pause and start to consider context? Consider. What does it depend upon? Ah. And can they even put that on their calendar? Can they even put like a, you know, a placeholder on their calendar to. To pause and reflect and think? Because nobody in my world is doing that.

Speaker B: And here's the thing. How much time it takes may not be a lot. It might be 15 seconds, it might be 15 minutes, it might be overnight. We end up making a lot of decisions and treating them as urgent when they aren't necessarily. And there are lots of decisions that, that are two way doors, if you know that reference from Jeff Bezos where we can make that decision but we can come right back through the door and no big deal. And, and we treat an awful lot of decisions like they're one way doors. Uh, like once we've made it, we're done. And those, those are, those are, there are real decisions like that, but many of our decisions are two way doors. Uh, here's what I would say. Yes, if we're going to do anything other than operate on our habit or auto response, it's going to take some time. But the time might be a moment, the time might be a minute. The time doesn't necessarily have to be on your calendar. However, I do believe that the most, uh, I think it's almost a profound truth that the most effective leaders are making time to think and to reflect and not just to keep doing.

Speaker A: Yeah, beautiful. Okay. So as we start to kind of close out our time here today, this feels like this could go another hour and a half to be honest. So this is a real gift. Thank you, Kevin.

Speaker B: Well, I have 20, I have a hard stop in 20 minutes.

Speaker A: So um, uh, I do too. So, uh, if, if we were to hone this in on kind of starting place, I always love to ask all my guests this question. You've uh, kind of uh, answered it in many ways already. But what would be one pro tip or life hack for leaders listening to this today? They could start doing today that's going to help them and their teams thrive tomorrow.

Speaker B: Well, there's several things I said, like you said that I could probably say here, but I'm going to say something slightly different. Remind uh, yourself that leadership is not about you. It is not about you. This conversation has been about what we do and how we respond. And that's really important. But as I said a minute ago, leadership isn't about us. It's about reaching valuable outcomes with and through others. It's not about us. And when we as leaders are willing to let go of that and recognize that it's not about us, we have a much better chance of success.

Speaker A: M. Kevin, Fantastic. Thank you my friend. This is great. If folks want to pick up a copy of the book Flexible Leadership, which they need to, they uh, want to learn more about you, your, your group, where can they go? What are some good places for them to go from, from here.

Speaker B: Well, Kevinikenberry.com is just, uh, sort of the hub of anything about, uh, about us. That's Kevin E I K E N B e r r y.com specifically about the book. If you put a slash flexible after that Kevin ienberry.com flexible you can, um, learn more about the book where do, where you can get a copy. Of course you can find it any place you would buy books. Um, and also if you go to that link, you'll get a sample chapter. Uh, and if you go to Kevin ikenberry.com gift I have a free gift for you. I did a masterclass a couple years ago about improving our confidence and the confidence of others, which is my free gift to you if you so choose. Kevin ikenberry.com gift and if you just want to be connected to me, find me on LinkedIn. I'd love to be connected. Let me know that, um, you heard me or found out about me from the Leadership Foundry and I'll smile and welcome you with open arms.

Speaker A: Excellent. Thank you my friend. Really, really appreciate your time. Appreciate the gift that is you and all of your insights. Uh, you're helping to make leadership a little bit, a little bit better, uh, a little more relevant, uh, and giving us all the confidence to, to try new things so we grow. And for that, uh, I, and we are very thankful. Thank you.

Speaker B: It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: I hope you love that conversation as much as I did. Uh, I could have spent another 30 minutes talking to Kevin. So just a few highlights of what I took away from that. So first, Kevin really emphasized to us that flexibility is such a key competency that leaders need to possess today. And the way he challenged all of us was he said, hey, are you leading the same way you've always led? Leading the same way you led a year ago, five years ago, perhaps. And it really challenges us to think differently about leadership and thinking about how we can beta test lead meetings a little differently leads to our 101s a little, little differently. Uh, thinking about how we make decisions a little bit differently. Um, and we talked about the importance of not only doing that, but making time for that. He said, gosh, you find any exceptional leader and they make time for thinking about things and challenging and not only thinking about the context, but what do some of those decisions depend upon? So just pausing and thinking about it. And then he also made an important point to his. While we want to honor our strengths as leaders and we don't want to turn away from those. We use the analogy of a, uh, baseball pitcher having maybe a strong fastball. He said, don't make that. Your identity makes it really, really hard to pivot and change. So maybe you're an operational leader that always kind of led with kind of a really strong accountability. And while that can be good, can we add another pitch to our arsenal? Can we. Can we change up how we do things a little bit? So all that to say my. My call to action for you is, think about this week. What's one thing you could try and do a little differently? Tell your team you're doing it a little differently. Don't. Don't surprise them, but tell them that. Because while we want to change up and pivot on how we lead, we want to still be true to our values, our principles, and our purpose, which Kevin did remind us. So we're not changing everything, but we're changing stylistically how we navigate through challenges. So we can be as just as relevant, uh, today as we have been in the past, and we can not only thrive, but so can our team.