Navigating the Quarterlife Career Crisis (and How Leaders Can Help) with Author Scott Doyne

Brandon Smith: This is the Leadership Foundry podcast. I'm your host this week, Brandon Smith. This week's topic we are going to take on something I think we can all relate to. Uh, and if you've got kiddos that are in kind of post high school, maybe even closer to home, the quarter life career crisis. So that stress and anxiety, uh, I'm m behind, I'm not going to accomplish what I thought I was going to get accomplished. I'm uh, looking at my peers and they've gotten done so much more and what's wrong with me. So to guide us on this journey, I have a, uh, wonderful guest, Scott Doyne. I've had Scott on before. We talked about midlife career crisis. Scott has a new book out, uh, Navigating the Quarter Life Career. Real stress, real solutions. Uh, he's a wonderful coach, uh, author and keynote speaker. And today's show he's going to guide us through not only what's behind some of those stressors, but some solutions that either we can take to support those around us or those folks in the middle of this quarter life crisis can action to help them move through it. So just to be clear, he kind of defines that quarter life crisis in that 18 to 25 but leading a little towards 30 window. So as you're thinking about those around you in your office, in your workplace, uh, at home, family and friends that are in that window, this is a great opportunity for you to not only get resources to support them, but learn a little more about the stressors that they're dealing with. So listen real close as Scott kind of guides us on some of these challenges. And stay tuned to the very end. I'll offer some of my highlights from our conversation. Scott, so good to have you back on the show. How have you been?

Scott Doyne: Thanks Brandon. I'm doing uh, really well and it's good to be back with you too.

Brandon Smith: Well, obviously it's just good to catch up and chat. But we've, we've got something to talk about here today. Uh, we have a new book so, uh, Navigating the Quarter Life Career Crisis. Real stress, real solutions. So when we spent time on the show prior, we talked about your kind of navigating kind of midlife career. Okay, so we talked about that and obviously a lot of folks can relate to that now you've, you've kind of taken one step back, back in our timeline, talk about quarter life. So a good natural, uh, question to ask would be what made you, uh, kind of want to take on this particular aspect of our career journey.

Scott Doyne: It's really just something I wanted to understand better. That's where I started because I wanted to be able to help the next generation. Um, although practically you understand as an author the way it worked. I was writing the previous book and I had some notes off to the side about some early career stuff that I thought might be relevant for the Midlife book. And it wasn't. So I just sort of kept them there. And so once that cycle was done, I revisited them. And although I thought that was going to be autobiographical, it really ended up being a deep dive into uh, the current version of the younger generation. So Gen Z basically. And I've got kids that age, students that age, uh, that I teach, mentees, interns that I used to work with. And so, you know, I just thought if I understand them better, I'll be in a better position to help and hopefully other parents and managers of Gen Z as well.

Brandon Smith: Okay, I love that. So you said something that I'm really curious about just selfishly because of course I got a 24 year old and 21 year old and a 19 year old and so they're, they're my uh, 24 year olds kind of right here. But mothers are coming along. So you said the current version of this kind of challenge, uh, so what is maybe, you know, um, different about the current version of this challenge? Gen Z, what are they seeing today in terms of the world they live in and what quarter life, uh, crisis looks like, but also uh, what might be similar, what are kind of the things that always been true, but also the unique things you're seeing that are a little different.

Scott Doyne: Absolutely. And I'd say in general, you know, I'm a career coach, I work with career transition folks all the time of all ages. You, there's a lot of difficulty in the job market and there's a lot of pressure on uh, the economy and there's this fear of AI of course. And I think that is, that is in common. What is most different from what I studied is truly how this generation grew up with social media and phones and technology where they were virtual first, social first. And so that I think is really important to consider as well as the age they were during the pandemic. And so the isolation they experienced in their early teenage years along with that gravitation towards devices instead of what they call IRL relationships, um, really put them in this comparison cycle where they get sucked into uh, the virtual world and what they see other people doing, the visibility of the universe is greater and they can sometimes Forget that that's not the race they're in, or even that what other people are putting on social media isn't even totally true, at least exaggerated and potentially harmful if that's what they think they're supposed to be chasing.

Brandon Smith: Yeah, so definite, kind of a, kind of a fomo. And I'm sure there's a lot of anxiety kind of related to that. Um, were you seeing that, um, given they did grow up with such strong technology skills, social media, and just being able to do things so virtually and remotely, has that turned out, Is that in any way turned out to be a strength, or is that, uh, kind of have a cost on the back end that maybe we're not seeing?

Scott Doyne: I think both. And actually in the book there's a section called Bad News, Good News, and uh, AI and social media are two chapters in that section. And for this reason, I grew up managing digital products in the sports industry. And so I was always asking our younger generation of employees what they thought because they're in the target demographic of adopting new tools and understanding mobile apps and social media from a professional standpoint. So that I think is still an advantage is that they are early adopters. And even when it comes to AI, where, you know, maybe in high school they had their hand slapped and told they weren't supposed to use it, but I think they're coming around to understanding it and understanding it and using it faster to perhaps than established professionals where we just sort of did things a different way. And anytime you have that sort of legacy, call it baggage for how you operate, I think the younger generation is going to be positioned better to adopt and employ those technologies. Uh, but they still have the anxiety of how it's affecting them and their career. So I think they could use some help and encouragement and confidence around, uh, using and sharing their mastery of technology that is inherently there. But sometimes the anxiety I think gets in the way.

Brandon Smith: Okay, so we talk about anxiety and naturally, in the title of your book you have the word stress. Real, real stress. So, so let's, let's talk a little bit about this kind of, this bounding of time you talk about kind of quarter life crisis. So tell us a little bit about when does that generally start? And, yeah, and what are some of the hallmarks of this?

Scott Doyne: Whether it's midlife, late life, quarter life, third of life. Um, to me it's a little bit more about life stage than exact age. Um, although for my research, you know, from an analytical standpoint, I did bracket 18 to 25. Uh, the reaction I'm seeing is maybe that goes up to 30, 30. But what it captured, uh, I think effectively is post high school, um, lots of decision making. What's my major, what's my school, what internship, what job, where am I going to live? Right. Successive decision making, possibly for the first time in their lives. But I also like going to that 25 to 30, because then they may be in employment, have a job, and it might not be what they thought it was going to be. So there's a chapter called Reality Check, and I think that happens for a lot of them. Once they get into the working world, their assumptions might be off. And so how do they process and move through that first brick wall, so to speak? Uh, because that means the tools that I collected from experts to try to provide to them in this book, um, not only get them through that college age, whether they choose college or not, but also into that next hurdle where it's post college, they've made a decision and maybe it's not going well. How can they break through that next wall or clear that next hurdle?

Brandon Smith: So is that kind of one of those moments where a crisis might be occurring when I thought it was going to be like this and, uh, this. And it's not at all what I expected. It's not at all what I'm seeing from other people on social media. This, this kind of a letdown. Is that kind of what.

Scott Doyne: Yeah, ah, I heard a lot of that, um, you know, from, from the folks I interviewed across the, this age spectrum, you know, the ones that were 22 plus, um, either were worried that that was going to happen. That FOMO piece that you're talking about, did I make the right decision? Uh, but also, uh, ones that were enrolled that feel like, um, you know, they're not using all the skills that they developed, maybe they were a leader in college and now they're at the bottom rung. And that way, or they got into what they thought was going to be their dream job and it's just not, um, they're not enjoying it and it's not what they thought it was going to be. And I think some of that is what I would call like brand chasing. And coming back to that comparison and social media piece, uh, I think there is something in there psychologically about, oh, when I get the internship or job, I'm supposed to brag about it so that others think of me in a certain way. And brand association might be part of that. And so maybe you got into this big brand company, but you're, you Know, a tiny fish in a gigantic ocean.

Brandon Smith: Yeah. So what are some of the, um, behaviors, either externally or even kind of thought patterns internally that you were picking up as you were writing the book from individuals as they were experiencing this, what was it manifesting as?

Scott Doyne: I'd say the first that was clear was a certain paralysis. Um, we know about fight or flight. Um, but they talked about freeze when they get overwhelmed, and there's a lot of decisions to make and they want to go a certain direction. Um, one of them just said, my brain just stops. And so I think that stopping that paralysis, uh, does not allow them to move in any direction. And so this is common. And I ask you, from a psychology standpoint, you know, when, when you have that overwhelm and you're in stress mode, what it seems is you can't make logical, thoughtful, strategic decisions. You're just in stress mode. So you're reacting versus, um, my hypothesis in the book is if you can reduce the stress, if you can get out of that stress mode, you can be thoughtful about taking a step in some direction as even just a hypothesis.

Brandon Smith: Yeah. So, so let's talk about that. What were some of the things that, as you did the research around the book and you wrote in the book, what are some of those solutions, uh, that help to kind of, um, manage that stress so forward momentum can occur.

Scott Doyne: Yeah. So this, this is where the research digs in. Uh, I did a nationwide survey, uh, and I asked what their current stress relief solutions are. And so that, to me is like the first wave of insights. And number one was first family, friends and pets and having that psychological safety, having that comfort zone of people that you can talk to about how you're feeling, uh, was layer number one. Uh, but there were other things on that list that were, for some people, religion and faith was really strong. For some people, exercise creativity. They have the tools. But again, when you're feeling amped, uh, up, you can kind of forget them. And this happens with my coaching clients as well, is, you know, I don't have to tell them what to do. I ask them what has worked for them before in terms of lowering their stress and reaching a state of peace from which they can make better decisions.

Brandon Smith: So when they kind of use those coping skills, uh, does it kind of get them kind of out of that and put them in a position that, you know, we might see with other generations prior that have kind of overcome some of this? Is it. Does that seem to kind of get them back on track?

Scott Doyne: Absolutely. Um, you know, one of them expressed this clarity around their generation being the most over connected and disconnected generation, which is a fascinating dichotomy. And, and what she also said was um, she could realize that what she was seeing on LinkedIn specifically was um, not real or at least people that she wasn't really trying to compete with, but it was affecting her. What brought her back home was talking to her friends that were also about to graduate from college and they were struggling with getting interviews and jobs as well. So understanding the reality helped level set um, you know, just sort of their psyche and therefore, you know, this one woman in particular ended up getting an internship and taking on a part time job also. And she's moving now in a direction that I can see it's going to work out fine. But she really just didn't think so a year ago.

Brandon Smith: Yeah. Okay. Uh, so it sounds like part of this is this almost unrealistic expectations of um, what they should be able to do and accomplish during season of life.

Scott Doyne: That's right. And um, the timeline associated. So timeline came up a lot is what timing is supposed to be associated with. Go to college, get a job, move out of your parents house, get uh, married, have kids. And a lot of that, you know, if you look at it nationwide or even globally, those dates and milestones have shifted. But they believe that there's an expectation that they're hitting those mile markers and when they're not they just feel behind and less than.

Brandon Smith: It's funny, I don't know if my, I hope, I hope my kids don't feel that way but they've become particularly my oldest two. I've become very fascinated with when my wife started dating, when my wife and I started dating, when, how long we were engaged, when we got engaged, when we got married, when we started having kids. And for my daughter who's 24, it's, I think it's, it's created pressure on her but I don't think that was the intent and I don't, she uh, probably wouldn't say that. You know, she feels bad about that, but it does. It's become a little more of a uh, I gotta, I've got to kind of stay on track 100% my experience or you're seeing that outside of my four walls.

Scott Doyne: Well, the third chapter in the bad news, good news, uh section is family. And so whether it's intentional or not, family can be this double edged sword where you can get that stress relief.

Brandon Smith: Right.

Scott Doyne: That was the number one uh, solution to stress relief, included family but also the pressure and what you think your parents want from you, perhaps, which might not be true, but it's something that. It's almost those things where you get those signals. But if conversations I've had with my own kids who are 20 and 22, I do try to talk a lot about my early career and I put that out plainly in this book. I didn't have health benefits full time job until I was 28 and I was a freelance television production assistant and I went through business school and I had an unpaid internship. And so, you know, there's the reality of what we've all gone through. But if all they know is maybe the most professional version of you at the peak of your career and that's what they're trying to live up to, that ain't it, right? We, we went through struggles and frankly I went through a lot less struggles than most people. And so, you know, exposing that reality and um, gosh, there's a great book I found in my research called Squiggly Careers and I love it so much. It's by two British women. They have an awesome podcast and newsletter, uh, also but it's right there in the title. It is not a straight line. And so um, just taking a little air out of that balloon, taking a little pressure off. I do think that's part of our responsibility because that then allows them to take a breath and understand that they're right where they're supposed to be.

Brandon Smith: You know, I'm such a big fan of just even the idea, notion of late bloomers. I think there's just so much, you know, uh, because if you look at a lot of the kind of the well known famous entrepreneurs in the world, not all of them started at 22 with a startup and you know a lot some of them are like 50.

Scott Doyne: That's right, that's right. If you can get them to look at the facts. If we can just unveil the data of uh, one of my favorites is Colonel Sanders launching KFC at age 60 plus. Um, but, but it's not the, it's not just the extraordinary ordinary. It's kind of everybody. And that's where the sort of impression of success that they're gathering from social media. Right. The tiktokers, the influencer. There's a lot there where people are putting on their best selves. Not as much vulnerability perhaps in talking about the struggles. If they believe in that. It's totally contrary to what has actually happened in even quote successful people's career paths.

Brandon Smith: Yeah. So I have a hunch And I would love your reaction to Scott. You may say, Brandon, I disagree and I'm totally fine with that. My hunch is this because of the way social media is constructed and the way they can use it. All of us can. We tend to, we tend to put ourselves in echo chambers of people that either have similar views. You're going to see that obviously with reels and it's going to reflect back the, your current either emotional state or your politics or whatever it is. But um, even more importantly, um, puts them in bubbles of like, uh, five years older, five years younger, kind of uh, like the world exists in a small, tightly bound amount of time. So I, I remember a lot of folks that I, I kind of worked with over the years and they would talk about mentors they had or, or gurus and the guru they would be, you know, 25 and the guru would be 30. And ah. And, and I say, well that's, that's fun, but that's not really, you know, they've got more experience than you do, but there's a lot of folks older than them that have more experience than they have.

Scott Doyne: Yeah.

Brandon Smith: So it's maybe uh, I guess my, my way of saying this is this influence of technology has removed a lot of the multi generational relationships that I think we might have had in the past.

Scott Doyne: Yeah.

Brandon Smith: People are less involved in full community things that are so getting them, you know, in touch with 80 year olds and 70 year olds and 60 year olds and 5 year olds and 10 year olds. So you don't have that life, uh, perspective. You have this small bubble and it's like you're supposed to accomplish a whole, you know, lifetime worth of stuff in the small bubble. I remember I was getting a uh, a phone for one of my kiddos not too long ago and I drove up in my, and I had a new car at the time, drove up and the woman who's helping me, she was probably in her mid-20s and she's like, wow, I love that car. That's a great car. Like I've always wanted to have a car just like that. How long did it take you to get that car? I said, well I, I think I probably get about 50 years old to like get that car, to be able to afford that car. She was not happy with that answer. Scott. You, I mean she accepted it, but she wanted me to say if you work hard in six months you can have that car. Took me till I was 50 to be able to do that. So uh, I'm just curious to your Reaction to that.

Scott Doyne: Well, I'm glad you brought up mentorship, uh, because outside of, uh, family and the role models that our kids are growing up with, um, when I asked what resources this generation would like to have more access to, mentorship and networking were one and two. And so mentorship, I think, is that real world example. The people that'll be honest with you, the people that will be vulnerable with you. And so maybe you're not getting that from your family members or, you know, the whole sort of see it, you can be it thing, um, if you don't have that in your life, then mentorship is something that can be extremely valuable, not just for inspiration, which is awesome. And there's nothing wrong with ambition. It's just when ambition leads to anxiety, you know, how do you crank that dial down a little bit? And I think, uh, a mentor, uh, a, uh, manager, people in your life, aunts and uncles even, that your parents can introduce you to possibly, or you can find informally yourself, uh, those mentors can be super value to bringing things back to the real world. And this generation growing up that really is uncomfortable with in person communication, Right. They grew up not necessarily needing it for their social lives. Um, we can help them by introducing them. And I'm really proud of them for saying this in the survey results that they're looking for help with mentoring and networking. They know it's important, so we don't have to lecture them on the importance of finding mentoring or getting involved in networking. But they're not quite sure how to go about it. And so it might be, you know, if leaders are listening to this podcast, and I know they do, maybe volunteer as a mentor, maybe reach out to somebody without them having to make that really uncomfortable. Ask for them. Now I'm imploring them in the book as well. There's some, some ways to go about this that maybe aren't as scary, but I think there's a role to play for the older generations too.

Brandon Smith: So this is, uh, also something that I've seen is kind of a mix that I'm curious on your current reaction to or thoughts on. So, um, we see some folks in kind of Gen Z saying, I want to work virtually. I want to be able to have that work life balance. I don't want to go into the office. I mean, that's very important to me. And you know, that's, that's kind of a, a core need or at least want for me. But then I have an equal bunch over here, um, that say, so my kids are in this category, they say, I do not want to work remotely. I want to go into an office. I want to go to a place of work and meet co workers and learn the culture and learn ways of doing things and kind of be part of it, be part of that, part of the team. So I don't know if, if you want to react either on the kind of the, the general, um, comment that I made there to see if you've got, if you're seeing one way or the other and. Or if you even have an opinion on what's better. I'm curious.

Scott Doyne: Yeah, I, I really believe in treating people as individuals. Um, you know, people have different motivations, different personalities, different, um, you know, proclivities and instincts and, and how they work best. And I know as a manager or a leader of a large company, it may be hard to do that, but I'd certainly lean in that direction. Um, you know, when, when I was managing a team of 50 during the pandemic, uh, it was a research organization, and you better believe, uh, the preponderance of that group was more on the introverted side. And inarguably, they were as productive or more productive than they had ever been when they were working from home. Now, I had colleagues in the marketing department were the exact opposite. They could not wait to get back together. They love socializing, and that was really important to them. So I don't think either one is right. I just think it's important to think about how people perform best and how the aggregation of that team might, um, support each other. And, you know, it's like that one and one equals, you know, three or 11 or 25. Um, so I think that's my general take is think about how people perform, uh, and try to give them the opportunity to perform in the best environment possible. I know that's idealistic at some level. When it comes to interacting with this group and talking to them, I do believe they have more fear of being in person in general. And I don't even think calling them introverts is accurate. Um, some of the kids I talk to would say they're socially awkward, and so they might have just sort of gotten this comfort zone within social and virtual media, which they know is not totally healthy. And they might want to be in person and interacting and socializing, but if they're scared of it, I think they need some help in getting there. Uh, and I don't, you know, I don't want to coddle kids either. I don't think that's what it's about, I think it's about empowerment, but also meeting people where they are and trying to find a way to get them over those, um, you know, blockades that they might see for themselves in ways where you m. Might induce trial and then they see the benefit and then they're more comfortable going forward.

Brandon Smith: So you mentioned earlier leaders, and since, uh, leaders do listen to the show on a regular basis, what would you recommend to a, uh, leader listening right now? What is something she or he could do that might help to make this a little bit smoother?

Scott Doyne: Yeah, my entire career and certainly even more so as a coach, um, asking questions, uh, you know, giving orders, lecturing, dictating. I was a young person once and I'm still pretty stubborn when it comes to people telling me what to do. They're no different in this age group. And so asking questions about what they think, how they're feeling, what might they want to try next? Understanding m them as whole human beings, not just an employee that you get to tell what to do. This is not new in terms of leadership literature, but I think asking questions and listening to what they have to say and, and then trying to make part of their personal goals, uh, integrate with their professional roles, I think that can really be a, uh, tool to earning their trust. And I do believe that's part of the leadership and management role is to earn your staff's trust and that makes you a better team in the long run.

Brandon Smith: Yeah. So, um, I know we're getting close to the end here. Um, so let me kind of start to land our plane a little bit as you think about, um, the book for sure. But even outside of the book, I'll leave it kind of wide open to you. If there's one thing that someone listening to this should take away from our conversation that's either going to help them kind of thrive more in life or help those that they want to support thrive more in life. What would that be? What's the starting place?

Scott Doyne: The starting place is the stress is real, the open ended answers, the interview answers. What I heard was heartbreaking in terms of the level of anxiety this generation is feeling that's exacerbated by the social media that they're sort of consuming at all times. So I, I would just hope people acknowledge and accept that and then help them reduce that stress so that they can take a step forward in some direction.

Brandon Smith: Yeah. So if people want to pick up a copy of the book or learn more about you, where can they go? Scott?

Scott Doyne: Uh, well, I still live on LinkedIn so people can find me there, connect with me there. Uh, my website is scottdoin.com and the book, thanks, uh, to my publisher, Ripples Media, is available on lots of places now, so certainly, uh, Amazon, Barnes Noble, but also some local Atlanta bookstores and, uh, bookshops.org wonderful.

Brandon Smith: Well, Scott, uh, as always, an absolute pleasure to have you on. Thank you for putting out some more good work in the world to help us navigate. Navigate our careers and lives a little bit better. I wish you incredible success with the book and for those of you listening, uh, pick up a copy. I mean, it's only going to help you and the loved ones around you be better. So, Scott, thank you again for coming on the show. We really appreciate all your time and insights.

Scott Doyne: Thanks, Brandon. Same to you.

Brandon Smith: I've had Scott on my show before. It's always an engaging conversation. A few things stood out for me in this conversation today. As I opened with, and as Scott mentioned, this is kind of that window between 18 to 25 or 18 to 30. And, uh, it's almost surprising to me that there's so much pressure and stress for our relatives, our friends, our co workers that are in that window. And so Scott talked about that and he talked about social media and that FOMO and just everything being on display. And I think it was such a gift to prior generations that you could fail and you can do things at a slower pace. And it really wasn't publicized. So this feeling that everything's on display, I think has definitely ramped up the anxiety. Luckily, Scott offers a few solutions for us. He says, uh, family, friends, and even pets can help to reduce some of that stress and re anchor us into reality conversations with mentors and other generations to again, recognize it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. Um, even faith and even exercise can also help folks navigate through that. So while there are some practical things, I think just lending a listening ear and supporting those in our lives that are going through this, uh, is a great way to not only help them reduce their stress, but have them feel like they're not doing this alone.