Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Kevin Eikenberry - The Chief Potential Officer

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to decodingaq. Helping you to learn the tools, mindsets and actions to thrive in an ever changing world.

Speaker B: Hi and welcome to the next episode of Decoding aq. With me today I've got Kevin Ikenberry. He is the chief potential officer. So we're going to find out a bit more about what that means. He's based in Indiana in the United States States and he has been doing what he does I think for three decades. He's a globally recognized expert on leadership, remote and hybrid work. What a perfect thing to be an expert in right now and team development. So welcome to the show, Kevin Ross.

Speaker C: It's a pleasure to be with you. Uh, and you know, three decades is that's actually accurate. It's a little longer than that, but that's close enough for our conversation.

Speaker B: And he's a best selling author, uh, a few of his many notable books. I think he's done around 10 so far. The long distance leader, the long distance teammate, from bud to boss and soon to come out, the flexible leadership. Depending on when this goes live, it might even be out because I think it's coming out uh, this year in March, March 25th. I think he's also a renowned keynote speaker and a LinkedIn learning instructor. So, so selfishly I want to learn how can we improve our results as a remote team and what the future of adaptable and flexible leadership really looks like. So perhaps let's just start off with is there a project that you're working on right now that is really exciting you, Kevin?

Speaker C: Well, you uh, know this Ross. You know, writing a book is a project with multiple phases, right? So the phase of writing book is done. The, the, the part of the project about marketing book is one of the reasons I suppose why I'm here. And then perhaps the most important is the leveraging the ideas in the book to help leaders around the world. And so uh, I would say if, if we think about the project in that broadest of terms, that's without question the one that's most exciting to me. It's the one that I think has the chance, you know, we are in the business of helping leaders make a bigger positive difference in the world. And I believe this is the best work that I've done to date. And so we're super excited about how it can impact leaders, help leaders be more effective, be more flexible, be more adaptable, get better results.

Speaker B: And you know, as I'm sure several in our uh, listenership who've gone through that lovely journey maybe of writing and curating and editing, editing books, the, the, the process itself. I, I remember somebody said it's like art. Uh, you know, it's never finished, it's just abandoned at some point. Um, and, ah, is there something that compelled you to why another one? And why this one? You know, was there a particular moment, a particular experience that happened for you? Kevin?

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, so the why for this one is this, this book has been percolating for a long time, probably longer than any of the others, really. Um, and it's been percolating for a long time. And the longer I worked to clarify what I really wanted to crystallize what I really wanted to do, uh, the more I began to feel that, um, the message is one that the world needs. And so it's kind of a, a, a combination of things. And I'll be further honest to say that because I felt like it had the chance to be really impactful, uh, I'll just be vulnerable and say that that led me to delay longer because then I felt like I needed to get it right. And while, and well, anytime you write a book and you're going to put it out in the world, you want it to, you want it to be good, you want it to be solid, you want it to be, you know, good work. I, I think I put a higher, um, mark on myself for this. And so it took me longer than I'm used to, to sort of get down to it. Uh, but I'm super excited about where it's at and, and how it's going to hopefully help folks.

Speaker B: And so what's the key insight or the key kind of, uh, elements in there of somebody? You know, there's so many books out there, right? And many of them, I got a bookshelf full of them. Some are half read, some I read, some I read and do nothing with, Some I read and they become my playbook, you know, and I refer them out and I buy them for others, um, because it lands with the moment in time for me, the experience I'm living. And I can see a route to how I can apply value from it. So give me a, who would the ideal person be? Who's gonna pick this up? Flexible leadership. You know, what's compelling me to go, ah, that's for me. And then what will I get as a result of it?

Speaker C: I think I'll give you three audiences and then we'll go there. So the subtitle of the book is Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. So one is a leader who's really Challenged with the uncertainty around them. Leaders, you know, in, um, in organizations or, or markets of massive change, uh, organizations going through mergers and acquisitions, whatever, wherever uncertainty might be hitting people. So I think that's one. I think the second one is just leaders who are really looking for, um, a, a pretty different take on how to be a more effective leader and maybe a bit of a counterintuitive take. And. And then the third is for organizations that are really trying to find a way to help all of their leaders move forward. Right. So that, so there's a chapter in the book that's specifically for folks who are thinking about how do we further develop our leaders. And so the, the second idea in the subtitle of confidence I think is an underappreciated component of success in anything, including being a more effective leader. And so those, I think, would be the three audiences. And so what will people take? Well, I think what people will take is. And I really love the way you started, Ross, because you said whether a book takes for you has a lot to do with timing. Right. And I agree with you. I feel exactly the same way. So, uh, But I think there's really two big things around the book as a reader. Number one is that we have people like you and I and, and a lot of others have spent the last 60 or 70 years trying to figure out how to help leaders get better. Right. And we got a lot of really smart people that you and I are both resting, you know, sitting on the shoulders of, uh, standing on the shoulders of, to help do that. And they built all sorts of models and all sorts of things. And, and they're all excellent until they're not. And one of the things we've done is we've figured out that we should help people see what their styles are or what, what, what it would mean to be this kind of leader or to be that kind of problem with all of that. And the, the intention of all of it is excellent, and all of that is very helpful until it's not. And what I find is it stops being helpful far sooner than we would like to think. And that's because we move from saying you have these strengths or you have this natural tendency to saying, this is my identity. And the idea of being a flexible leader is to say, you can't stop at the auto response. You can't stop at what you found most helpful in the past. You can't stop at how you were taught. You have to say, what does the context tell me now about how I need to lead Rather than saying, well, this is the kind of leader I am. And the styles get in our way because they become labels and identities. And so that's the first. We have to get that big idea for people to say, okay, Kevin, I can walk alongside you to do something different. And then the second thing is it's all about this idea that it's the context that matters. And once we understand. I've started to say this, and I wasn't smart enough, Ross, to have this in the book. Uh, but I've started to say, like when you, when someone asks you a question once, your advice, and you either say, or you think, it depends, you've stopped yourself from just doing what you. Well, here's my advice. It depends means. Well, there's. It depends on the context. And so the idea behind flexible leadership is to stop ourselves long enough to think about what it depends on. And there's a whole piece of the book about sort of how do we make sense of the situation and the context that we're in and use that to help us decide what our approach should be. Right. I've been looking forward to this conversation because, you know, you talk about adaptability and I'm talking about flexibility. So, uh, it's. There's this piece of how do I. What is. How do I. How can I be consistent and yet be flexible? Yeah, right. And. And maybe we'll talk more about that. But to me, that gets that, that gets that part of the idea of what we call flexors, because there are two ends of that spectrum. I can be consistent all the time or I can be flexible all the time. And, and that's really the wrong answer. It's not. It's not either or, it's both. And yes. Direction in that tension, should I be leaning toward at any given time?

Speaker B: Yeah. And I, uh, I find it interesting, you know, when we talk about change, about flexibility, about adaptability for what to what, why? And it takes this moment of pause, this pause to reassess, to be then intentional and conscious of the choices. And like you said, what is the context, what are the variables? And then what are the consistencies? So I might consistently apply a mental model, certain principles, certain values, but how they show, uh, up in the world might be different. Or I might find that my values are no longer valuable because I get some new information, I learn some new stuff, I see things I couldn't see before. And it made me think. When you talk the second part about confidence, and it hit a, ah, chord with me about something that, um. Dan Sullivan, my coach, talks about these four Cs in growth, and they have a specific order, Kevin. And, uh, it's commitment, courage, capability, confidence. And so what happens often when people are asked to do something, if, if they go straight to have I got the capability to do that, I'm likely to be confident, therefore I'll do it. If I haven't got the capability, I'm likely not to have the confidence. But if I commit to it, I'm going to need courage. That's where growth and new things come from. So I'm interested in this almost oxymoron duality of uncertainty and confidence, uh, in your book. So tell me a little bit more about that of how can, um. And the value of confidence in a realm of uncertainty where I might have pegged confidence to something different in the past maybe, than what I should be looking at, ah, driving my confidence in the future.

Speaker C: Well, so first of all, we need to start to, we, we need to probably reframe uncertainty, right? To think that somehow we're going to get rid of it, right? That's not likely to happen. Um, the IMF does a global uncertain, has a global uncertainty index. They've had forever and it's like skyrocketed in terms of what people, how, how they measure the level of uncertainty that we face. And so for all sorts of factors, right? So the first thing is we have to recognize that that's real, that it's not going to go away. And then we have to say, how do we make sense of it?

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: So in the book, we talk about, uh, a model based on the work of Dave Snowden and others called the Cynefin Framework. That helps us say that, see that there are different, Our situation isn't always in the same context. So we've got to figure out where we are on the map and just think about, if I plop you someplace, you're not going to be very confident. But if you have a map and you see, well, here's where I'm at, here's where I'm going, you're suddenly a little more confident. Well, at least I can go from there. Assuming you can read a map. I know not everyone can read a map anymore, but, um, but the idea of if I can make, have some tools to make sense of my world even though it's uncertain, then I have the chance to build some confidence around that. And then what we try to do in the other part of the book is talk about these, we call them flexors. It's this idea, you And I were nodding with each other about, about the tension between two things. Right. And so it's. Once I can see where I'm at, what makes sense of my, of, uh, the world for my team, for me with another individual, whatever it is, then I can say, how do I need to adapt or flex based on that, rather than saying, I just don't know where to go. So it's sort of helping people give people a model and a process so that they can think about it. And once we have a model and a process, then our confidence can build because, say, okay, I, I can work on that. I can build my capability.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Uh, so the C word that I use along with confidence is competence, because it's the same as capability, really. Uh, but it's the idea that as our competence grows, our confidence grows. And as our confidence grows, it gives us a better chance that our competence or capability will go and we make

Speaker B: new commitments to bigger, better things.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I'm, I'm quite curious as to how will this impact, you know, decision making. Will it create a wave of procrastinators that, you know, are there so many options, so many things I have to be so flexible. Uh, where will I, like, decide Decidra to cut off? What do I say no to when ultimately there's so much contextuality, so many things in there. What's your sort of thoughts around that?

Speaker C: Well, we're talking at some level about prioritizing, uh, prioritization. And so I think we talked earlier about what are the things that are we rooted in. If you think about, like a tree, what are we rooted in? We're rooting it rooted in our principles, rooted, I think, in our values and those sorts of things. And so it's from those things, from our mission, and it's from those things that our priorities should be spawned.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: So if you got a tree, that's what roots us, and that allows the tree to last for the long haul. But we have. The tree has to be flexible or it's going to go over in the first, you know, in the first heavy storm. So priorities can shift. We might need to adapt our priorities, but they should all be rooted in those most important things of our why, of our mission, of our values, of our principles. And so if we keep that in mind, then I think we've got a much better chance to manage that better.

Speaker B: And, uh, we've got some big challenges ahead. Right. In terms of this uncertainty showing up in a variety of ways. You mentioned about market context or about inside Context, it could be teams, restructure, mergers, acquisitions, whatever it might be. Could be new skills required, AI at the moment. You know, upskilling in there could be a variety of things. And the. I do actually want to touch on, uh, a couple of things that have been going on in our landscape outside of, uh, the traditional conversations I have of inside work, in terms of some of the politics, some of the polarization and how that is now impacting how some of the big companies are behaving. And I, I wonder if you'd play with me a little bit to try and figure out, you know, what can we learn from this for flexible leadership going forwards? And I, I don't know if. Have you seen the video that has been released by Mark Zuckerberg of, uh, Facebook? It almost looks like a, A ransom video of him. Speaking of what they're shifting and what they're changing, have you seen that? It.

Speaker C: I've read about it and I know all about it. I don't know that. I don't know that I've actually watched it.

Speaker B: Watched it.

Speaker C: Uh, but anyway, go ahead. Yeah, I know we're talking about, yeah,

Speaker B: these, these ideas of, of shifting of. Or going back to our roots and principles of free speech, etc. We're doing away with fact checkers. Uh, we're going to let community notes do the heavy lifting. And, uh, a lot of this driven from, um, you know, a lot of people are writing about, and he even mentions Trump several times. And around, you know, the shift that America's going under and about to go under again in how being maybe too flexible or shifting around you. One minute you're standing up in Congress saying one thing, we need fact checkers, and then at a later point you're saying something else. As a leader, a very visible leader that appears to be flexible, and we can go, well done. Great. You're understanding the context, you're understanding what's going on, where the things are. And yet you've got another part of society that's saying, um, hey, this isn't what we expected, what we would want, what we've been led to believe of trust and what's worthwhile in the world. So where can it work and not work in this flexible leadership world?

Speaker C: So, a couple of things. The first thing I would say is that you use the word polarization, right? And I, I earlier talked about the idea of flexors, that things can be. There's a tension between things at each end. And, uh, I made the comment that when we think about a flexor we think that the right answer is rarely at either end, but somewhere in the middle. And I would say the same is true for this. I'm not an expert on fact checking and community notes and all that stuff. Right. Uh, but what I, but what I would say is this, that if people are trying to anchor his decision against their sort of viewpoint of things, which could be at the ends, I would say rarely are the ends either end the best or most effective answer, but rather it's somewhere in the middle. So uh, you know, to me, uh, what that, what that whole episode says to me about Mr. Zuckerberg as a leader is to remind us all that it's hard, that being a leader is hard. And a lot of times, you know, we may not be Mark Zuckerberg and we're not, not in the whole world isn't analyzing our video, but all of us as leaders have to make hard decisions. I think the idea of being a flexible leader is to make more informed decisions. And, and that may mean that over time those decisions will change. Right. What uh, I often find is that in, in daily work we say to people and uh, that that person was willing to adapt, they were willing to flex, they were willing to learn something. And then somehow when that movement isn't what we sort of like then we say, well, they're flip flopping. Right. Like, and yet how different are those two things? Right? So I'm not sitting in his shoes. I don't know all of what his reasons for the first set of decisions or the new set of decisions. Uh, but what it says to me is that, that it's all hard. And I also do think that, and again I'm saying this from a, trying to say this from a non political perspective and that is that the context is changing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Right. And he has a business to run and so he has to make decisions and we may or may not agree with them. And, and, and I would say that he's taking context, he's trying to make sense of the context and make some decisions. And I, I really don't think for me personally that, that he, he is still operating in between the two ends of the spectrum and he's trying to figure out the best place for he and his business. That that's how I would answer the question.

Speaker B: And I think that's a great,

Speaker A: just

Speaker B: been fresh in my mind and it's made me think a lot about things because um, you know, ultimately what is your mission, what is your purpose if you have a commercial business? But then what's the downstream of that, what's the wake behind you of your decisions? So it might affect a few people, your, your spouse, your family, those sorts of things. It might then affect your team, your organization or an industry, or an entire race and society that can shift because of the power of some of these platforms and things of the responsibility is big. So I, I found that really interesting as I was listening about. What do we hear when we see something is always with our perspective, right? With our own, what we're looking for. What we hear is subjective, you know, in terms of the intent of that person.

Speaker C: And then I say something else.

Speaker A: Yeah, please.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Interrupt you go ahead.

Speaker B: No, no, go, go, go.

Speaker C: Um, so there's another thing that I, I talk about a little bit in the book that maybe this is worth talking about here too. Is that so often? And, uh, we can talk about Mr. Zuckerberg or we can talk about the person down the hall, right? It doesn't really matter. But someone does something and we immediately say, well, this is why they did it. Right? So there are some people who have watched his, his announcement about the changes at Meta and said, well, here's why he did it. He did it because of Trump or he did it because of this or did it because of that, maybe. But what I would say is that there's lots of possible or what I would call plausible reasons. So I like to do what's called plausible cause analysis. Like, what could it be that led someone to make the decision that they made? Let's take a very, very different situation that's way easier for us to unpack in this moment, right? Because everyone that's listening to us, Ross, has been here. You've, you've been leading a meeting and asked. And you actually been in both sides of this. You've been the leader and you've been in this meeting. You, you've got a question that you want input from the team on. So you ask and you get nothing. You get crickets. We've all been there. We bought both sides of this meeting. And I've asked hundreds of leaders about this, and most leaders first reaction is what? Well, these people don't care. Why are they not engaged? Are they not listening? Now, uh, all of those could be reasons why they didn't say anything, but we can come up with probably at least 10 plausible reasons why people didn't say anything, including they didn't hear the question. They were taking a mental vacation. They don't want to go first. They are thinking about your question. We go right on down the line. My point is that when we decide, here's why they did it, then we go down a path of, well, this is what we got to do next. And I think that happens in stuff in the media all the time, like whatever our perspective is. Well, then this is why they did it. Maybe. What other reasons might there be that, I mean, it's plausible that this position for Mr. Zuckerberg is closer to what his original one was and he felt he needed to go a different direction before. Like, I have no idea. I have zero idea. But, uh, that's plausible. Right. And we could come up with a bunch of other stuff. And so I find that this idea of thinking about plausible cause analysis, and then I say, I don't know why, but it could be any one of these going back to the meeting, any one of these 10 things. So then the question is, what could I do next that would have the most impact on the most of those things? That's being flexible.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's also taking responsibility of your response to something being intentional.

Speaker C: Intentional about operating on autopilot or doing what first comes into your mind or what you would do because you have this style.

Speaker B: Yeah. Engage or disengage, armor or run, um, you know, whatever it may be in that is to, okay, let me, you know, have some understanding and. And seek curiosity, um, to get better context. Then, you know, intentionally respond in the most positive and proactive way, whatever that might be. Sometimes it can be loud and with volume. Sometimes it can be quiet, you know, whatever that that may be.

Speaker C: That's a. That's a flexer. Right. I have come to see so many things on this. On this. These continuum. Right. Y. Should I talk or should I listen? Yeah. Well, the answer sometimes is either one. But the what's the right answer in this moment, in that moment, when you ask the question of the group and no one responded, the best thing for you to do is to ask another question. Yeah. Or ask the same question a different way. Give people a little space to respond. Because the minute you start giving answers, you are less likely for them to give you any m. Right.

Speaker B: And I think one of the shifts we're seeing as well, in terms of whilst we might understand the why and the what, the how is shifting, and the how is changing. So we had a playbook of how to do something. Ah, want you to do this Recording a podcast episode. And we knew the how. The hows are, ah, now opening up an entire new realm. And equally, I'm asking for things and thinking of things. That haven't been done before. So even if it's something that's on rails, I've systemized it. I've got my, you know, uh, uh, entire playbook of how I do this. I've got my SOPs, I've got all of my stuff that's shifting together with. There is no.

Speaker C: So we had, that's what we had when, when, when suddenly we had a pandemic.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: We had a playbook. We know. We knew what work looked like. We knew where work needed to happen. We knew when work needed to happen. All of that stuff was pretty clear.

Speaker B: Yep. Hence your, you know, focus on hybrid, on remote, at a distance. So what's the, um, connection point between flexible leadership and, and some of those other trends and shifts in terms of where work is done?

Speaker C: Well, it's interesting because, because I wrote a book called co. Wrote a book called the Long Distance Leader back before there was a Coronavirus, uh, or COVID 19. I should be specific if we have biologists on the, on the line. Um, but in 2018, we wrote that book. And so once a pandemic happened, lots of people were asking us about our thoughts about long distance and all the stuff and working remotely. And, and at some point I said, I don't know where it will all go, but the future of work is flexible. Flexible in terms of when, why, how and where. Like it. And, and, and I believe, although that's not a very, uh, specific prediction, I believe that prediction is continuing to come true. So in that regard, it's connected to the idea of flexible leadership. The idea of, uh, what does the context tell me about. Like, here's what I know. I know there are lots of folks my age and older who have, who are leading organizations that grew up knowing how to navigate in an organization, knowing how to build a career in an organization, knowing how to be successful in an organization. It involved people being around the table or at desks down the hall. So from a human nature perspective, why wouldn't they want that? Not just for themselves. Some people are saying, well, those senior leaders just, just want to do what they like. Well, maybe, but part of it is they know how to make it work that way. Why wouldn't they want to go back to that playbook? But a flexible leader has to say, well, the context might be different now and are, uh, the variables. Do we need to reconsider the variables? But can we still understand that perspective and that desire and all that and take that. Can that still be a part of this decision? I believe a Hundred percent. But if that's the only part of

Speaker B: the decision,

Speaker C: then it's fraught with challenges, which I think we've continued to see as organizations have struggled, uh, with all this. You know, the biggest thing about all that, Ross, to me is that we're living in a time that in 20 years they're going to write all sorts of case studies about.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Not just the pandemic, but still. Because I could go back, I um, could go back 150 years and tell you the. How the view of society's view of work has changed. Right. Um, and about every 80 years it changes. It takes about 60 years for it to like totally shift over. But instead of having 60 years to totally shift over, did it in about a month. And now we're living through how to de, how to unpack that. But in the past it was always an evolutionary thing. Now is a situation where 40% of workers suddenly experience something different and those who didn't know someone who did. So the site, the sociological view of work, the societal view of work has changed in a literal heartbeat. And now we're trying to unpack and figure it out. And the mistake we're trying to make is get too definitive about it too fast.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think one of the challenges is it's not a singular event. It's not like, oh, I've paid you interest on your money today we're done. Um, it's compounding. So we're having all of these compounding effects from all sorts of different areas and where we've had how work gets done, where it gets done by whom, uh, in what way we leverage it. So we might, oh, we need a new uh, capability. Um, and we'll train people, we'll hire people to now agents, software and the incoming humanoid robots where there might be more humanoid robots than people at some point doing work. What does that mean? And how we collaborating in flexible leadership where somebody on the leadership board is not human. Um, and the human.

Speaker C: Out of my pay grade. Now that's out of my pay grade. But what. Go ahead.

Speaker B: I was just going to say we're going to have people that are. Yes. Augmented by AI. So that, you know, when I spoke to the guy from Sodexo, he says I have five team members in my team that are five eyes that are doing different tasks, different things to help me do my job. Um, and in my role. So we'll have these augmented humans, but we will also potentially have other self fulfilling result driven AI agents, uh, doing things. How will we lead uh, and how will we deal with that? Is going to be, yes, uncertain. It's going to be transitional, but it's going to happen all of a sudden, all at once, uh, when we haven't had time for the pause or the time for a breathe. So we have to be intentional with those pauses. So is there some you mentioned in your book about, you know, organizations that are going through this almost like a. Here's some guidelines, here's what you might need to do, how to implement some of these things. Walk me through. You know, we've got a client right now that's going through a big restructuring. They've got a lot of shift in their uh, leadership. They've got several mandates that evolve around how they're getting work done and where they're getting work done. What are some of the headlines? Give them a little teaser of some pieces in the principles of the book that will help them.

Speaker C: Well, the book is outlined, Ross, in three big pieces. Uh, and it, and it aligns with the way we do all of our work. Kevin I group which is mindset, skill set, habit set. So so much of what you just described, whether it's a, a big merger, whether it's a big change in the business, whether it's the uh, adoption of AI agents, etc, whatever it is,

Speaker A: has,

Speaker C: uh, to start with, a different mindset. As I was listening to you unpack this question, I was thinking, well, what's the answer? Well, what I know is the answer is leading the way we've always led is not going to do it. Like that's what I know for sure is that to think that in the face of all that change, to think that I can lead the way I did led five years ago is folly. And I think everyone would say, well yeah, you're right Kevin, that's folly. And yet if we rely on the models and the approaches we've always relied on, however well intentioned they have been and even how helpful they've been up until now, to think that that's enough is folly. And so it's mindset, skill set and, and whether it's teaching people flexible leadership skills or any leadership skills, uh, we've all been through the process of, we've taught everybody these skills and then no one's using them. So it doesn't matter what the skills are if they don't get applied. So mindset to match the skill set supported by habit set, right. Turning the closing the not the knowing doing gap.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: To get people to apply the things regularly. Uh, and so, but that again, loops back to the mindset. Is the intention there to do that? So when I said, sort of tongue in cheek, that some of the question you were about to ask me was above my pay grade. Uh, I, I think we all have to figure it out as we go. But it starts with what does the context tell us? How do we bring the right information together based on that context and then, and then move forward in the face of the uncertainty? Because if it's truly, if the context is truly complex in the, in the framework that we teach, if it's complex, then we have to know that there's uncertainty. There are even, we even know that there are things we don't know. But if we, if we start there and recognize that, okay, what, what can we do anyway, given that, what can we still do? Right. And what is, what is not, is to find a best practice. Because a best practice doesn't exist in that context. Right. And yet if we're trying to lead based on building our, uh, best practices, we're trying to act as if we're in a, we're in a, uh, context that we are not in. If that makes sense.

Speaker B: It does. And uh, maybe the, the future best practice is a series of experimental, uh, protocol principles than a step by step guide.

Speaker C: Uh, but I would say that they're adaptive practices. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. Right. And where something.

Speaker C: The thing is, we have to. And this is what people are doing with. This is what people are doing return to office. They're trying to create policy. And what we need to be doing is piloting stuff. We should be trying stuff. So I've been saying think pilot, not policy. And I think that's becoming more and more of a watchword for every. Well, not for everything, but for many things. Right. Yeah. Uh, adaptive practices, how long?

Speaker B: Unless the half life. Yeah. What's the half life and shelf life of a policy? And that just being okay with that again can be unnerving. Right. Because we want some uncertainty. How am I being measured today? You know, what is my performance based on? And if you move the goal posts, I'm upset. If I move the goal posts, I'm happy. Right. And so I think it's really, that's

Speaker C: why, that's why it needs to be.

Speaker B: We move, we moved the goalposts.

Speaker C: And so I want to say something to all of our HR friends who are listening, and that is that I believe that all policies when enacted should have expiration dates or at least renewal dates.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Right. Maybe expiration sounds better, but in many cases we might Keep it. But it needs to be reviewed and say, is this still it? Yeah. And by those should not be on a five year old deal either. They should be like on a two year deal.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's been like food, you know, best before expiry date. You put it in. Do you have the sniff test? Do you do it? Do you go and buy it from the supermarket again or do you buy something different? Right. Maybe you know, the policies and the way we do it. Do I buy it again? You know, would I, uh, you know, spend the resources and time to buy that policy again or do I want to buy new? Oh look, something news on the shelf here. It's using, you know, new methodologies, some new pieces and that. That can be exhausting. Right? Uh, as much as it is exciting. Oh, it's all, all great, all new. For some people who thrive in that, for many people that want to come in knowing what I'm doing, how I'm doing it and who with. We're not in that world anymore and I don't know that we ever will be. So how do we help those people that are really struggling and gonna struggle with that transition and shift to where uh, there's little consistency of time And I'm constantly, where am I? What do I wear today? How do I do it? Who am I listening to? What's going on? I need to lie down.

Speaker C: Here's, here's what I would say. Uh, it's easy for people like you and I that write books and do podcasts to say, well you just have to accept that this is the new way the world works. And, and while there's truth in that, that's not very helpful. Here's what I think is more helpful. And this is a, this is a change leadership profound truth that we often forget. And that is when, when change is introduced, most people treat uh, it as if starting with a blank sheet of paper and it's all new when it rarely is. And we can serve ourselves and our teams when we start by saying, Listen, 70% of this is the same, right? So in, in the uh, long distance leader, we, we framed it around rules, rules for remarkable remote leadership. And the first rule was think leadership first, location second other words, there's an awful lot about leadership didn't change just because you don't see everybody every day anymore. Let's not forget that first. And so there's a lot of stuff about work that's changing, but not, uh, everything's changing. So let's recognize, well, this hasn't changed and this hasn't changed. And this hasn't changed. And this hasn't changed. These things have.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's great.

Speaker C: And when we, when people can recognize that the entire world is not shifting, are things changing? A hundred percent. We need to take those things into account 100%. Are they nuanced rather than brand new? Most likely, or in many cases they are. And so if people can have a sense of the stability of what's not ch. What's not changing, when we can help people see that, then they have better context for what is changing. It makes it easier for them to accept those things, to understand those things and to move forward with those things. Because everyone, every human on the planet, no one minds change. What they don't like is being changed.

Speaker B: Yeah, right. And it gives you the, the energy and the bridge, resources to take it on and tackle it. When we have that, you know, we've, um, had canvases for a while that have, you know, when you're talking about change and all the things, what has stayed the same, what is still the same, and get them to write it down, get them to really live it and breathe it, to then anchor, okay, from now to next, what are those, uh, things? What are we building from? And you know, it's this difference between, uh, when is grit valuable versus when is mental flexibility valuable? How are these things interwoven in the duality, uh, of things for organizations, for people, for how we do things?

Speaker C: And there's a, there's a place for grit and there's a place for quit.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And, and knowing that and thinking about that's another flexer, if you will. Right. And uh, and, and being able to hold those two ideas in our head and still move forward is, is the, is the work of being a flexible leader. And the, you know, the ideas that we've talked about today, the ideas I've written about in this book, are not the easy way. Right. Because I'm suggesting you got to do something other than just what comes automatic to you. They're not necessarily the easy way, but they are the, they are at the impactful, the positively impactful way. And they are the way that what that will lead us all as leaders to make a bigger difference, which is likely. Certainly those who are listening to this

Speaker B: show and for many in our community, you know, what you just described is one of our sub dimensions of mental flexibility. We measure their ability to hold two opposing thoughts at the same time and not end up in a padded cell.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And that kind of, um, sub component to our Model is, you know, ace ability, character and environment. And you're talking a lot of the same thing, you know, in terms of all of those parts of what's the context, what's changing the environment, what is our mindset, what is our skill set, how might we approach to, uh, this is our bias or as you mentioned, uh, part of our identity. What are we letting go of? What are we allowing to be reimagined and reinvent, uh, along it, um, if we're sat in a year's time having this conversation again, checking in with each other, what will have happened in your life for you to feel? That was a cracking year. That was a great year. I'm really delighted and proud and happy about what I've achieved. What would it look like in a year for you, Kevin?

Speaker C: That there are communities of people that, uh, are thinking about using the word, the phrase flexible leadership that are actively, uh, on the journey to be more intentional about the context and apply the flexors that we talk about in the book and beyond and that, that they, they are in doing that, moving to not only be more flexible and more effective, but also wiser.

Speaker B: I love that the, the route to more effective leadership in our modern world is a flexible one.

Speaker C: I believe that's correct.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I believe that very much. And in terms of, you mentioned about the phase of the book that you're in right now of promoting it, getting it out there, um, if listeners are, ah, really interested and curious to know more, Kevin, um, how do they get in touch? What's the best way to, um, you know, peek inside your world and look at those things? How do they do that?

Speaker C: Sure, if people just want to get a copy of the book, I mean, you all know where you buy your books and if you can just remember the flexible leadership and my name, you'll find it and you can go do that. And of course we would love it if you did that. Uh, but for all of you that have been here, we have a gift that we've created for, for those listening to this podcast. And if you go to Kevin Eikenberry, I'll spell it in a second. Kevin I canberry.com gift so it's K E V I N E I K E N B e r r y.com gift that will give you all the information about the book and where you can go purchase a copy and even about buying multiple copies for your organization and the bonuses we're doing there. But the gift is access to our masterclass that I created about leading with confidence and building the confidence of others. So it's a masterclass, uh, that we created virtual uh, course that we created a couple of years ago that we um, wanted to make available to people just because they've listened. So go to kevinicanbray.com gift yes you can get all the stuff about the book but you can get your free master class on, on confidence. Hope you'll do that.

Speaker B: That's beautiful. I love that. One of our principles is CO elevation. Kevin first inspired by uh, Keith Ferrazi who mentioned it in several of his books of, of CO elevation. So uh, I'll do my best to push that out because I truly believe it's such, it's so aligned and of huge value. And just before we close out, I have a question that I ask every guest and it's inspired by the very first guest which was Dr. Diane Hamilton. She um, has written several books about curiosity. And the question I've been asking everybody is when was the last time you did something for the first time and what was it

Speaker C: right before? Well, I'll just say the first one that comes to my mind, we're recording this on the 13th of January. And so a little less than a month ago, I was with my wife, our two adult children, my uh, daughter in law and future son in law and we ocean kayaked for the first time. And while we were ocean kayaking for the first time, about 30 days before this is supposed to happen off of Maui and Hawaii, uh, we saw whales really close. Not, they weren't supposed to be there yet, but we got the chance to see him. We, we rode out about two miles from shore. We were told, but never have thought we were that far out or that we could go that far out or that we wouldn't be sore the next day. Um, but uh, I don't know if that's the last thing, but it's the first thing that came to my mind.

Speaker B: Beautiful, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure to get to learn more about your book, about your work and you're clearly passionate about how do we ensure people have got a future they want and that they can contribute and contribute in a conscious way that is uh, productive in the world. So thank you. Is there, before we go, anything you'd have loved to say that you haven't had a chance to say?

Speaker C: No. I've enjoyed our conversation, Ross. You asked great questions. Um, you know, because I'm on this side of your side of the mic when I do our podcast, the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, when, when they're over and, and I feel like I had a great time. I figure it was a good episode and that's uh, certainly the case for me. I've enjoyed this a great deal and I appreciate the chance to even with you.

Speaker B: Me too. Been an absolute pleasure. Thanks. Kevin

Speaker A: do you have the level of adaptability to survive and thrive the rapid changes ahead? Has your resilience got more comeback than a yo yo? Do you have the ability to unlearn in order to reskill, upskill and break through? Find out today and uncover your adaptability profile and score your AQ. Visit aqai IO to gain your personalised report across 15 scientifically validated dimensions of adaptability. For a limited time, enter code PODCAST65 for a complimentary AQME assessment transforming the way people, teams and organizations navigate change. Thank you for listening to this episode of Decoding aq. Please make sure you subscribe on your favorite podcast directory and we'd love to hear your feedback. Please do leave a review and be sure to tune in next time for more insights from our amazing guests.