Combining Strategic Intent With Hyper-Experimentation: The CMO's Guide

Erica Seidel: Hello and welcome to The Get. I'm your host, Erica Seidel. This is our seventh season. Time flies.

If you're new here, welcome. The GET is all about driving smart decisions around recruiting and leadership in B2B SaaS marketing. You're in good company. Our listeners are CMOs, aspiring CMOs, marketing operating partners at PE firms and CEOs looking for inspiration as they recruit CMOs.

I've been told that the get has been helpful to listeners, whether they're preparing for a board meeting or thinking about how to structure their teams or gearing up for a scaled journey, or simply looking to feel less alone as they navigate a very hard job. A listener once called me the Terry Gross of Marketing podcasts. I was honored this season's theme, SaaS Marketing orgs and how they are changing in both seismic and subtle ways. If you're leading a SaaS marketing org of any size, you're probably thinking of things like, how is AI reshaping your org chart?

How do you vet a candidate's AI skills when you're still learning about AI yourself? What's the right mix of full-time fractional and freelance for your team? How do you build adaptability and resilience in your org in the face of economic disruptions? We'll start looking at these topics today.

Our guest is Claudia Lee. I'm talking with Claudia at a rare moment of reflection. She's transitioning from one CMO role to another. She recently finished up at certified the company that fights fraud for the real estate industry through an identity verification SaaS platform.

Her earlier career spikes were primarily in product marketing and partnership, blah. Her earlier career spikes were primarily in product marketing and partnership marketing at companies like Dell and Commvault and Nutanix. When I met Claudia a while back, she just stood out. I thought, wow.

Here's someone who's uniquely thoughtful about how she leads her marketing team and how she interfaces with the rest of the org. Claudia, welcome to the show. Claudia Lee: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited.

Erica Seidel: Well, I am excited to chat with you. Like we say in Boston where you lived for a while, I just found you " wicked smahht." Maybe we could just start with you giving a little intro on you, a little bit of a deeper dive on why did you wanna become a CMO, a little bit about your background, and maybe something that people who haven't gotten to know you too well would find unique or interesting, or a little bit of a fun fact on you. Claudia Lee: Yeah, thanks so much for this opportunity to chat.

I love marketing and I have passion for marketing and that's why I'm so excited for this conversation. I became a marketer through a journey of starting in the business world. I started out in consulting, and through all of these projects consulting for organizations, I started to realize the power of good marketing. You can have a great product, but if people don't know about it, if you're not clear who you're trying to reach, you don't have the right strategies and tactics to reach those folks to help them understand the value, then your company or your business doesn't really fulfill its full potential.

I also love marketing just because it is usually the growth engine for the company. You're out front in terms of thinking ahead of where your company's trying to go, and painting the vision for what the company's trying to do, painting the vision for customers and partners, like how you hope to help them. It's a very growth mindset type of function, and I gravitate towards that. I'm this sort of entrepreneurial person, but not necessarily for my own things.

Every single role I've ever done is building and starting up businesses or lines of business, whether it was starting the first consumer PC line at Dell way back, or helping start a function at CommVault to take the data management platform and turn it into a service offering for service providers. Nutanix, I was kind of the first partner marketing person and grew that team from the ground up. Then, I came to CertifID 'cause it was such a cool opportunity to build the marketing function.

When I joined, we were still a Series A company, forty employees, and I was the first full-time marketing hire, and it was just a really cool challenge and opportunity for me to build the marketing function from the ground up. The company had already done a great job of establishing the brand. It had a great presence in the market, but there was still just so much to build and that was what attracted me to the company as well as the mission of fighting fraud, like you described.

As a marketer, you always want to have an impact, and for me, as I've gone through lots of different roles, I realized that I need to work on something that I truly believe in. If I have conviction, that's when I do my best work. At CertifID, I've had that blend of being able to build, and build something that I think is super meaningful and makes a difference in this world. So it's been a cool opportunity and I'm super grateful about it.

Erica Seidel: That's great. Any fun facts? Claudia Lee: Fun fact, you've probably not met as many people that have read biographies of US Presidents as me, probably. Erica Seidel: I'll just pick up on one thing you said about being mission-oriented.

I talk to a lot of people in my recruiting and I'll say, what are your criteria for your next role? And many of them say, I really want something that I can get excited about. It's so interesting because I always say, well, what does that mean? And you have to communicate what that means because if you just say that, somebody's going to think, oh, they want to, I don't know, save the world or hug the trees or do something that's nonprofit oriented.

When in reality, things around cyber could be very impactful for one person. Something about financial services could be very impactful for another person, and you have to articulate what that means for yourself and articulate it to other people. Claudia Lee: For sure. Yeah.

Value doesn't have to be working for a nonprofit, although that's, I'm sure, very rewarding and I've considered it, as well. To me, value and doing something meaningful is simply that you are helping grow a company or get a product out in the world that adds value to your customers. As an example, Nutanix is an amazing company because the intent of Nutanix was to take incredibly complex siloed data centers and simplify that, and, in so doing, free up resources for a company to go do strategic things in their businesses.

Just the act of simplifying data centers was incredibly groundbreaking and valuable for our customers. Our prior CIO used to talk about how, before Nutanix, she hadn't had Thanksgiving dinner with her family for a decade because Thanksgiving was always a time when IT teams would do migrations and other type of IT projects. And so Nutanix gives people their holidays and weekends back so they can spend time with their family. Those kinds of things are what a marketer's about.

We wanna work on things that are helping customers accomplish their business goals, enrich their lives. However, that value is, that needs to be super clear to a marketer 'cause we have to feel it in our bones. What is the value of this company? We have to love our product.

We have to love our company because we are the chief voice for that story to the outside world. We are the chief evangelist. So we have to really love our company and what it does. Otherwise, you can't do your best work as a marketer, I believe.

Erica Seidel: I like that. I can imagine interviewing with you for a more junior role on your team and being very inspired by that. That's awesome. So let's get into some questions.

I know when I first talked with you, we talked about this concept of CMO needs to be like a chief marketing education officer, and you told me about this Slack channel that you had called Enabling Conversations. You said, you know, this is what marketers are here to do, to enable conversations, not just with customers, not just with prospects, but with partners, and also internally. I was very taken by that idea and so would love to hear you double click on that and talk about what you think about that, how that shows up, how that works, and what value you've gotten from that kind of mindset and communication channel.

Claudia Lee: Yeah. I think enabling conversations, I came upon it during my time starting at CertifID. It kind of crystallized a belief that I've had in every marketing role, and that is, if you really think about why every function at a company exists, like, why does finance exist? Why does the product team exist?

For marketers, marketing exists at a company to enable conversations. What I mean by that is pretty broad. Marketing is not just talking to people. Marketing is not just building messaging and broadcasting the messaging.

Our job as marketers is to create the story and all the aspects of the story and create the conditions and vehicles and places where these ideas show up so that it sparks interest or ideas or conversation with partners and customers and prospects. That's a super broad, ambiguous way to describe it. But that is really our job. We are there to spark conversation, to enable conversations, to enable ongoing conversations with ideas and the ways we tell the story and that just shows up in so many different ways.

And it depends on your market and your company. That's why we exist and how it comes out is demos and opportunities and pipeline and close one, but you don't have that without really understanding what you're trying to do, what your company does, why it's so special. How do you tell that story in all the ways? How do you tell that story with all the audiences?

How do you find ways to reach your audiences with those stories? So that's why I came up with this description of what we do as we are here to enable the right conversations with the right people at the right time. So it's about enabling conversations, and the Slack channel that we started at my current company is really just a place where we put new stories, new content ,even just industry articles. All these things are just fodder for our go-to-market teams to leverage to engage their prospects, customers, and partners.

It's giving them fodder to spark conversation because we all know it's hard to get into the door of a large prospect. It's hard to get people to wanna engage with you. So you have to provide things of value for them. You have to.

Find things that you think they would be interested in, that they're learning about something new, or they're learning about something that they needed to research anyway, or "Did you know?" kinds of things. Those are all fodder to spark that conversation. So that's how that channel started.

We just put in news articles that are about our launches as well as industry articles as well as customer stories, that kind of thing. So it's just a place a go-to-market person can go to pick up ideas and turn that into outreach and things like that. Erica Seidel: Follow up question, when you talk with the CEO or the board, do you use this concept of enabling conversations, and if you do, how does that fly? Claudia Lee: It depends on the situation.

That's the macro why we exist, but, obviously, it shows up in the numbers, right? So, if we're reaching the right audiences with the right conversations and we're helping them go through that buyer's journey, or the account buyer's journey with those conversations, then it shows up in those numbers that I mentioned. Are we picking up new contacts? Are they engaging?

Are they requesting demos? Is that turning into opportunities? Et cetera. So it's more of an ethos as to why we exist, and then that becomes strategies and plans and execution, and it shows up in the numbers.

Erica Seidel: Yeah. Great. So this season, with the podcast, we're looking at ways that the SaaS marketing organization is changing both seismic ways and in subtle ways. I like alliteration, so that's why I picked that.

Anyway ,can you pick one or both of these things and talk through what you think and what you observe and what you're fermenting, either a seismic or a subtle changer, or both? Claudia Lee: Yeah, I think it's subtle and seismic, but I think that marketing orgs are changing in a couple ways in terms of how flexible and adaptable we have to be. I think marketing has always been about testing and having a mindset of testing and learning and experimentation. But I think that that is like 10x now, just because of all the technologies that are impacting how we do our work and how we reach our audiences and how our audiences consume content and engage now.

So I would just say the number one theme that I think about a lot is just how to stay even more flexible and adaptable than ever before. There are certain phases I think of tech and tech marketing where there were certain things that were seen as working really well and it was more about scaling that. Now we're in this world where everyone's trying everything, trying to figure out what is the road ahead? Harnessing these technologies in order to gain an advantage.

And I don't think anyone has completely figured out the playbook yet. So it's this era of experimentation that we're all going through, I believe. I see it a lot. We're all hungry and learning from each other in terms of teams that have had success leveraging different tools that are enabled by AI.

That's gonna be the name of the game for the next few years. Erica Seidel: That's interesting. So an era of kind of hyper experimentation. Can you talk about a recent experiment that you wouldn't have done, I don't know, a few years ago?

Claudia Lee: Yeah, I think all marketing teams are experimenting with how to derive value from AI. So one of the things that we have done as a team is we created our own content GPT. We actually fed it with proprietary content because what we do is so unique and there are proprietary aspects of it in order to fuel our content development more efficiently. It doesn't replace humans.

It doesn't replace the strategic intent. It doesn't replace the more overreaching stories that we build, but it can take everything we've ever written before and help us actually produce more bite-sized content in an efficient way. So that's something that our team's been working on. Erica Seidel: Very cool.

Awesome. One thing I remember about your background, when we first met, I was doing the search that was all around ecosystem-led growth and a very partner-oriented go-to-market motion, which I just thought was cool. And because it seems like that's just a faster path to market and everything. You have a background in this, and I remember you said that at CertifID your first hire was a partner marketing hire.

I think it's rare for somebody to get to the CMO role from having a partner marketing kind of background. Can you talk about where are we with the maturity of ecosystem-led growth or partner-led growth, the arc of maturity, and what's your forecast for where that's going? Sorry, that's kind of a clunky question. Claudia Lee: Yeah, partner marketing is really unique and cool.

I fell into partner marketing because I started out in product marketing, which became solutions marketing. In any kind of robust portfolio solutions, you want your technology to work with other folks' technologies, and that's how I fell into working with other tech partners and working on go-to-market together on these joint solutions. I was very lucky. I think the timing of that evolution of my experience was very much in parallel with the entire tech industry realizing, exactly what I said, that your reach and the capabilities of your technologies will improve immensely if your technologies work with other folks' technologies.

It was this time when so many companies realized that partnering was going to be valuable, not only for the strength of the solution, but the reach. I just had great timing. My skills and experience and knowledge building around partner marketing just mapped with that really well. So that was a really nice benefit for me and my career growth because that type of skillset was valued and was searched for, and there really weren't that many people that had that type of experience yet.

Partner marketing wasn't even really a discipline. If you go back, I'm aging myself a little bit, but way back if you intentionally said, "I wanna be in marketing," partner marketing was not even a thing people said, "I wanna do that." It just evolved as its own discipline. Now, the interesting thing is so many people have gravitated towards that idea, but it's not that easy to work with outside companies.

Partnering in general, whether it's just partner, BD, sales, or marketing, these are just disciplines that are challenging 'cause you're trying to get alignment between two companies to do something together and stay together and keep that momentum going for a sustained enough period of time to see revenue. That just takes a very certain intentionality and strategy and mindset and sustained resource to do that. So there was this massive ramp in desire for partner marketing and partner teams, and I think now it's become a little bit more mature.

A lot of the companies understand now how it can be challenging, but how it can lead to outcomes if you can invest and sustain that effort for enough of a period of time to see the results. My trajectory has gone with a trajectory of partner marketing even being a thing. It didn't even exist then companies started to see the value, started to invest. The great thing is, is its own discipline now, and now there's this period of companies who have become really great at it.

There are still a lot of companies that are still trying to figure it out. We've realized that partnering was going to be our most effective and most efficient path to reaching our ICP audiences because these large companies already had the relationships, had the decades of experience and success working with our customers, and were very respected in terms of their recommendations on technologies to use, partners, and just all aspects of a deal. So that is why we have continued to invest in partner marketing 'cause it's a value to all sides, to us and to our customers.

Erica Seidel: Really cool. If somebody has a stagnant partner marketing program, what would be the first question you would ask them? If you had your consulting hat on, 'cause you know so much about this, what would be the first question you would ask them to diagnose what the problem was and how they could fix that? Claudia Lee: That's a great question.

I guess my first question would be tell me about your partner ecosystem. Tell me, who are your strategic partners and why? What categories do you hope to serve by working with your sets of partners? What does success look like with these strategic partners?

Just understanding the intent because if intent is clear, then, it's not easy, but if intent is clear, then you can build a path toward that. It's hard work to get there, but that intent and focus and prioritization is really important. Erica Seidel: I like that. Make sure the intent is clear.

You bring up something that I think is so huge in marketing these days, this kind of tension between short-term results and long-term patience. To your point, it could take time for anything in marketing to work, but partner marketing results is one of those things that can take a lot of time. Meanwhile, companies are so anxious for short-term results that you're fighting time. Claudia Lee: I feel like you can do both.

It's not easy, and I'm being pretty optimistic, which I am generally an optimistic person, but I think you can do both because you do need to find the early wins. If you can get some early wins, whether it's a few large customers that you close together, those kinds of early wins, then that becomes fuel to get to your next stage of growth as a partner. You take those as examples of what good looks like and teams that work together and how they achieve that success together in order to spark more and more of your joint sales and marketing teams to want to work together to see that result.

Then you can build that into a scalable program. But it has to be seen as urgent. Getting some of those early wins is incredibly urgent because if your partnership launches and you don't have enough fuel, after a certain time, that momentum will dissipate. That excitement and energy of launching together will dissipate without more fuel.

So I think there's a way to do both. In fact, you have to do both. You have to find those early wins so that you can sustain the momentum and turn that into a scalable effort. Erica Seidel: Okay, great.

Thank you. Let's talk about AI. You know no conversation these days is complete without some topics of AI. There's a lot of talk about AI is gonna take over entry level jobs, or at the very least, change them a lot.

How do you think that's gonna look? What kinds of people are gonna get the few jobs that are the relatively, comparatively few jobs that are out there? Claudia Lee: It's obvious that AI's going to change roles and how teams are staffed and whatnot. The main things that I see is just the elevation of that thought around intent and having more of a thought process on what are we trying to do, build the strategy around it, that culture of experimentation.

A lot of other folks have probably described this to you, as well. I think AI is simply another, I'm oversimplifying, but AI is another category of technology that aids us. So marketers have to continue to uplevel our thinking and our skillset and our ability to understand the technology and figure out how to leverage the technology for our purpose. It's a tool, right?

Effective, successful marketers and marketing leaders will view it that way as this cool opportunity to find new ways to do things. So it just continues to elevate that strategic thinking, understanding your company and why we're doing what we're doing. That flexibility, adaptability, that culture of experimentation becomes even more important because it can feel chaotic when we're on the ground, in day-to-day. and we see posts constantly about " AI created this for me," or "AI created that for me," or, "I didn't do this anymore 'cause of AI."

Those are all true things, but to turn that into a scalable motion will take the right strategic folks to build that out. So I think it just continues to uplevel the type of talent and the strategic acumen of the talent that you hire. Erica Seidel: It's interesting, I feel like the theme coming out here is intent plus experimentation. Claudia Lee: Every single team or role I've ever had, I think if you were to choose two words that describe me as a marketing leader, it's " strategic execution."

Because nothing happens without execution, but execution without a strategy is just busy work. But then strategy without the execution chops doesn't actually lead to progress. So it's the blend of both. Understanding what you're trying to do, but then having that grit to execute.

Erica Seidel: That's a great segue to the thing I wanted to talk about next, which is about bringing up the next crop of marketing leaders. You are a very intentional person like we've been talking about. I'm wondering if you could talk about the three most important skills that, whether they're hard skills or soft skills, that you like to create in your team. If we talked to people who worked for you, what would they say they had learned from you?

Claudia Lee: You won't be surprised at my first one. It's that strategic acumen, or just thoughtfulness is a better word for it. I always look for folks that are super thoughtful in how they think about and talk about what they've done before and what they've learned and what they're trying to do in their next role. To me, that indicates intellectual curiosity, which is pivotal to any marketer.

You have to be asking questions and trying to understand the why of things because metrics in marketing are simply clues. We don't always know why somebody decided to buy. Sometimes you're lucky and they'll tell you exactly, but we're in the business of looking at all the clues, all the engagements along the buyer's journey, and, " Okay, I think this might improve conversion rates." You just need that intellectual curiosity to ask, " Why did conversion of leads into demo requests only have this percent here, but this percent there?"

So intellectual curiosity is super important for any marketer. I also think that no matter what your role is in marketing, it could be ops, it could be events, it could be brand, even though your role could be very specific, I always look for folks that are pretty well-rounded because the world we live in is changing. You're gonna want somebody that's able to think out of the box and think beyond their current scope in order to keep evolving what they do, how they do it, how they do it better, and how it fits into the bigger picture.

So I always look for folks that are really well-rounded because any well-rounded marketing person needs to understand the story, needs to be able to understand how demand is created, needs to understand their numbers. You need that full facet across any role. Maybe you're more indexed in certain things that you're an expert on in your role, but you still need to understand how all of it works together. Those are the qualities that I always look for.

I think the last thing goes without saying, but just that collaborative spirit is also so important in marketing because everything we do is so contextual. We do our work better if we understand what our teammates are doing, because then how we show up at a trade show or how we show up in a digital ad is more informed because of learnings that we're all gathering as a go-to-market team. Not just our team, but working with sales and customer success. So that spirit of collaboration, that I'm not alone, I'm not doing this in a silo.

I can get more lift and effectiveness if I understand what others are doing. Then I also just need to understand what others are doing so I know how my piece of the puzzle shows up in front of our audience that I'm trying to target. Just understanding how you're connected is super important. You can't just be in your lane.

Erica Seidel: I love that. I think that's so well articulated. How do you tell if somebody's collaborative? I'll just pick up that third one.

If you're interviewing somebody, people often just say, "Oh, I'm collaborative." And I always think are you collaborative in terms of, okay, I do my piece, you do your piece, and then we put it together? Are you collaborative in terms of we come to the same mind and we're joined at the hip to come up with something, which could be you know, maybe more time consuming? How do you tell?

Claudia Lee: Interviewing is so hard because you're trying to test for things that are really hard to test for. I think the tells are little things, like as they describe their experiences, did they describe how they worked with others? This is a really hard one to test for, but are they generous in giving credit to the others that they worked with? Because you never do anything alone.

Just that generous spirit of " I did this because there was a broader team that I worked with." And how they describe their accomplishments. One of my questions that I ask folks is how would your manager describe you? Or how would your former team describe you?

And you see, like, how do they see themselves? Does anything indicating great teamwork or collaboration or that kind of thing pop up in their description of themselves? Those are like little proxy clues, I would say, but yeah, it's a really hard thing to test for in an interview. Agreed.

Erica Seidel: That's cool. Any other tips about how you hire, or other favorite interview questions that you have? Claudia Lee: I love to ask folks, tell me about one or two of your accomplishments that you feel was most successful in your prior role. Tell me about a project that you thought was very successful and tell me what it was, your role in it, what did you accomplish?

I love to start with the best of someone, and if they can tell me what they're highly proud of, that gives me a sense of what they value and how they did it and just about them, basically. Erica Seidel: I like that. I used to have a client who would ask that, and then she would ask, " Tell me about an accomplishment you were proud of at the time, but you're less proud now looking back." Claudia Lee: Hmm.

Erica Seidel: So I give that to you as another, like extension for yours, because people evolve over time. Like, oh, I thought that was so cool. I did that ten years ago, or five years ago, whatever. But now with this lens, I would've done X, Y, Z differently.

And of course, if they don't say they'd anything differently - right? - Like, then you know. Claudia Lee: Totally. Yeah, because that indicates self-awareness and thoughtfulness and intellectual curiosity, which are so important to the adaptability that we just talked about.

Erica Seidel: Yeah, yeah. Cool. I know we're getting to the end of our time, but I wanted to ask you one thing, since you're in career transition and you, clearly, were meeting with at least one CEO. I'm wondering what were you asked in your interviews for your next CMO gig?

Was there anything that was surprising to you or that you think would be interesting for other CMOs in transition to hear and to prepare for? Claudia Lee: Mm-hmm. Wow. That's such a great question.

It's a big question. I think for a CMO, a CMO role is obviously going to be multi-step. There's a pretty lengthy conversation, set of conversations. So that's why it's a big question because I do think that when a CEO is looking to hire a CMO, they really wanna understand that person as well as they possibly can, in as efficient a way as possible because you're envisioning taking somebody into your leadership team that you can count on and can be by your side and make the right decisions and that you can trust.

That's really hard to interview for. So in that process there's a lot of "How would you solve these problems?" kinds of conversations. But then there's also the how questions.

So I do think that how you show up in the process in terms of how you think about team building and how you think about your approach to leadership and how you would approach either building or growing or evolving a team helps folks envision what would you do in the role. That's really what everyone's always trying to do in an interview process. Could I envision this person in the seat at my company doing the right things, and that I can trust to do the right things? That's just so hard.

So it's the strategy, it's the marketing philosophy, it's the how would you build our brand and our presence? Feeling like you have passion and some semblance of understanding of the product is super important, too. Don't just jump to the marketing tactics. Try to understand, okay, how could marketing tell this story better?

I think an important part of the thought process is could I envision this person being my chief evangelist for why our company is doing great work for our customers? There's so many facets, I think, to that process of a CEO deciding on is the CMO the right person for us? Erica Seidel: Right, right. And interesting, follow up on that.

You didn't say anything about AI, so I'm wondering, did CEOs ask about your perspective on AI or your forecast on how it could change marketing? Claudia Lee: For sure. Erica Seidel: Or, or was it like, what are you using? What types of questions?

'Cause I feel like everybody's, oh, everybody else is further ahead than me and they're trying to suss that out and learn in real time. Claudia Lee: For sure. It's in every conversation. It's almost implied in every conversation.

I think AI is in every conversation. I think that there is a deep understanding on all sides that it's going to change how we all execute. I do also think that we also need to still focus on the fundamentals, like all those things that we just described. Strategic intent - do you understand the product and what it does?

What's the value for our customers? And then AI is a new set of technologies that can help you do that better. Don't get me wrong, it is groundbreaking. It is changing our lives for good and bad already as marketers.

I just hope that we balance that it is a set of tools that we can leverage, but it's not going to eliminate the need for smart people to be doing the right things to get your story to the right people. There's always gonna be these ways of new technology that changes how we do our work. But again, it all comes down to thinking about how you enable the right conversations. So that's what I always come back to, because otherwise you'll just lose yourself in chasing tools.

Always come back to that. Why are we here and what are we trying to do? Erica Seidel: I love that. Yeah.

Strategic intent and experimentation. You know - Claudia Lee: Thanks for marketing me. I appreciate that. [They laugh] Erica Seidel: this has been great, Claudia.

Thank you so much for sharing your perspectives. I love the thoughtfulness that you put into your career and I can imagine your teams really appreciate you. Thank you so much and good luck in the next role. Claudia Lee: Yeah.

Thank you so much. Erica Seidel: That was Claudia Lee. Stay tuned for the next episode of the Get Coming in a couple of weeks. Thanks for listening to the Get I'm your host, Erica Seidel.

The GET is here to drive Smart Decisions or, ah. The GET is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and leadership in B2B SaaS marketing. We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today's top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS. If you liked this episode, please share it For more about the get visit the get podcast.

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