Bonus Episode - Battery Hens, Bullshit & Burnout: HR’s 2025 “You’ve Got to Be F*cking Kidding Me” Year in Review

Marian Anderson: Foreign.

Kashadora: Welcome to the Elephant New York, presented by the Fearless People Experience. Do you know those things in the workplace that make work suck but remain unchanged? Well, those are the elephants we're here to talk about. We believe that these topics can and should be addressed with common sense, courage and compassion. We may not have all the answers and we're definitely not always going to be right, but we're here to build a better people experience. You gotta start somewhere.

Danny Glutch: Let's go. Welcome to a new dawn break. And you were on my bind. Welcome back to the Elephant in the Org, everyone. I'm Danny Glutch and I'm joined as always by my co hosts, Kashadora.

Kashadora: Hello.

Danny Glutch: And Marian Anderson.

Marian Anderson: Hello.

Danny Glutch: All right, we are here the end of 2025. If you're listening. Congratulations. You survived show of a year. Proud of you. I am m personally proud of all of us.

Kashadora: Supes proud. I don't know.

Marian Anderson: The Judy's still out. If I survived it or not, I don't know.

Danny Glutch: You can't let everyone know when we're recording this, Marian.

Kashadora: No, I mean it just tells everyone they have to tune in for next season. So there you go. They have to find out that way.

Danny Glutch: But this is our end of the year wrap up of the Elephant in the org for it kind of doesn't all. It's season. What was it? Two and part of season three, the 2025 year in review. This episode's already chaos. The year was chaos. So it fits.

Marian Anderson: And I'm. And I'm sober. Can you believe that?

Danny Glutch: So it was a chaotic year though. And I like a lot went on personally, professionally, and then just sort of in the world of work. What were some of the things that stood out personal, professional, or in the work world for you ladies?

Marian Anderson: Oh my God. It's like picking amongst your least favorite redheaded stepchildren.

Danny Glutch: How many stepchildren do you have, Marion?

Kashadora: Treasure trove. But I will say, Danny, I do think that like the. I feel like a theme of the year, both in positive, negative, eye roll, whatever you want to call it, right. Is just this, the boom of AI because it's everywhere. It's in every software that you're using. It's in every business conversation on how are we using it, how do we use it to stand apart if it's not in the software. Right. Like boards want to be talking about. Like I feel like it's just this concept that's grown its own life. But, um, at the same point it's still widely either misunderstood or misused or not being looked at through a true futuristic strategic lens of how to use it. Right. It's like an easy out, but also it's really beneficial. So it's weird to kind of talk about AI when you're. Especially with the people that we talked to to in this season. Right. You hear the benefits, but you also hear the warnings. And so it's a really interesting and on theme for 2025 kind of moment.

Danny Glutch: Yeah. Yeah, I know. That one definitely stood out. What about you, Marian?

Marian Anderson: Uh, uh, I. I mean, I think it's just been the continuation of the return to office mandate. Like, I'm, um. I'm. I'm so over. I'm so over the debate of, you know, is it hybrid versus remote? No, fuck off. It's not. It's none of it. It's flexible. Treat people like adults. Give them flexibility. Let them work how they best work. Whether that's in an office or at home, m. Or in the fucking moon, for all I care. As long as the job is getting done and, you know, they're being productive and they're engaged, then why are we wasting all this time on. You got to be in three days a week. Bullshit. So, no, it's. I'm m. I'm. I'm kind of at that point now. And even though, like, you know, I'm just finalizing the last of my. My PhD write up, like, the theme is clear. No one cares. Right. Like, uh, people just do not want to get into the whole thing of how many days, how many minutes, how many hours do. Does my ass need to be on this chair? Yeah. Just let me do a good job. Right. Especially right now. Like, let's face it, this year has sucked politically, economically, you know, socially. Like, it has really been a tough year. And so we just need a little bit of stability and a little bit of happiness.

Kashadora: Stability in this world right now is, uh, in short supply. Yes.

Marian Anderson: Stop weaponizing, like, all of the work staff, employers. Stop weaponizing. Stop weaponizing remote work. Stop weaponizing dei. Stop weaponizing psychological safety. Just think about your people. Treat them like good human beings, intelligent human beings, and just think about making work suck less for love of God.

Danny Glutch: Yeah, honestly, that was one of the things that stood out to me was this pseudo political push to pull back dei. And, and with it, like, you're starting to see the pullback of, like, oh, is psychological safety actually a bad thing? Is that harmful? Or, you know, is that, you know, the. The snowflakes need psychological safety. And, you know, you see that paired with the the quote, sin of empathy that you hear going around in some circles and it' where are we? Like, I don't even know what sort of era they're trying to pull back towards, but it seems like the 1300s. That's when the dark ages were right. I can't remember.

Kashadora: It's in that bucket for sure.

Danny Glutch: It's really, really brutal. Like, I don't understand sort of like what the end goal is other than just to be reactionary and the opposite of whatever their opponents are. Ah. And like, not for any productive way. And I see that in organizations. Like how in the world do you say psychological safety is a negative and like, you're not going to be productive if you have psychological safety. Like, if you can't, if you can't

Kashadora: take risks and you can't innovate, then like, where's your business gonna go? So it's like, I'm with you, Danny. I feel like a lot of these things that have been not even sometimes thought about in businesses. Right. Like I've, um, yet to. In my professional career. Empathy has never had a scarlet letter associated with it. Right.

Danny Glutch: Until now.

Kashadora: Until now. But. And you're seeing like people fight against it, but you're also seeing like the burnout ratios just skyrocketing across industries because people have everything we just talked about happening at the exact same time.

Marian Anderson: Yeah.

Danny Glutch: And it's, it's really interesting. I was talking with a professor at a local university who's, you know, been doing research in organizational leadership for, for decades and he said that it's so interesting because if you survey anyone from any sort of like generation, socioeconomic background, political leaning, and you tell them to describe bad bosses versus good bosses, they are just inherently, from their own experiences, describing psychological safety versus not because they know a good boss when they have it. And it describes psych safety. It describes like all of, you know, that's not the only framework to think of it as, but like, it's one we use a lot and I think fits really well. But like people know what it is and yet they're like, they're just doing policy and you know, railing against it for no good reason. They just want bad bosses. I guess maybe they don't like success. Who knows?

Marian Anderson: Yeah, I mean there's, there's that. There's also connected to that, just the plight of the middle manager. Like, you know, we talk about all the time. I, if I was at the start of my career right now, I would not want to be a manager. I would want to be an individual contributor. I cannot imagine anything worse right now. The lack of support, the lack of training, the lack of, you know, enablement development for capabilities. Like, it's not there, it's all been cut away. And I'm sorry, but I will not solve that one. So. No, no, not at all. Mhm.

Danny Glutch: So in fact it might make it more complicated. Like think of like if AI is working well and you have a lot of individual contributors becoming really sort of like effective and being able to like perform a lot, then the. The ability to organize and coordinate and manage all of these, like individual contributors who are not necessarily collaborating but are using could be a very, very difficult challenge.

Marian Anderson: Mhm.

Kashadora: Yeah, completely.

Danny Glutch: Okay, so on to what I want to talk about because we covered all of these topics and what we've done is we have grouped our episodes from the year into three different sections of elephants, if you will.

Kashadora: Herds.

Danny Glutch: The herds of elephants that you heard E A R D on our podcast. That's. Man, that one's gonna be fun. For the transcripts. Anyways, so the three clusters and I want us all to try to power which ones we thought were the coolest, which ones we're gonna revisit, which ones we're gonna find ourselves in 2026, 2027, coming back and still talking about. So the three herds are the first one, the future of work and flexibility. The second one, AI tech, sort of workplace, overall chaos that that is doing. And the last one, leadership, pain and humanity. So M, of the three, what were, who are some of the guests that we had on and talked about? Which one stood out for. For you ladies? Which ones do we think was the strongest?

Marian Anderson: Strongest? I don't know if I'd see that. I mean they were all like, they were all powerhouses. You know, we didn't have one dud guest this year. Every single guest we had was an absolute powerhouse and Absolutely. And brought some incredible things to the table. I mean, I suppose the one for M personally for me this year was probably Dr. Burrow, Dr. Joe and the HR kind of psychology piece, because that has been the wave that I was riding this year. You know, had some incredible professional experiences this year, but also had some really tough ones and had a, uh, Friday night of coming, you know, finishing up a workday, getting in the bathtub with a glass of wine and sobbing for an hour because I was so disillusioned and disengaged with my profession and just realized that the HR profession is on a one way to hell right now and people are leaving the profession in droves. They're tired of being the. The junk drawer of organizations. They're tired of being the corporate punch bag. They're tired of being, you know, this blame all, catch all and are just exhausted. And, you know, I. You guys have heard me say this for so long. I just want to leave my profession a little bit better than how I found it. And I guess that's what motivates me to do this work and the work that we do. But looking around me and just seeing so many esteemed colleagues just absolutely frazzled and at the end of their tether, particularly when it's been a year of, again, crap, right? Layoffs, disengagement. I mean, you know, uh, employee, uh, engagement just falling at our rate of knots. A lot of stuff that doesn't necessarily sit well with principles and morals and stuff like that. So that was a really bleak moment for me. And then when, you know, coming across Dr. Joe and her research and then having her come in and chat to us and the wider recognition that there needs to be more support within the profession, you know, their notion of developing, developing supervision for HR practitioners. M. Wow. Like, that just blew me away. So simple, right? But, uh, so powerful. And it's been lovely to see how that's kind of gathered pace over the course of this year and seeing companies embrace it and recognizing that, that HR people do need support. And so, you know, I think that has been both a dark moment. But then the sun came out, uh, when I, When I learned about this research and that. That gives me hope. Yeah.

Kashadora: I think the cluster that I found the most fascinating and very similar, I think, a little bit to Marion. And the fact that, like, it just applied to what I've been focusing on a lot this year was around, like, that AI tech and workplace chaos. We had, we had an amazing AI series, uh, trilogy, if you will, at the beginning of the season. But we had, uh, Mark Evans on, and he was talking a lot about AI and how it impacts education. I'm wrapping up my master's degree and you have. Every single syllabus I've had has had a different kind of statement around AI. Right. We've got some professors who are curious on how you'll use it. You've got others who are like, zero tolerance. And what was so fascinating about the conversation we had with Mark was it wasn't just about how it's in education. It's what's the downstream effects, what's this going to look in 10, 15 years in the professional context when people are either Entering the workforce or now they're at that point, Maren was talking about where they move out of that individual contributor into a manager role. How prepared are they if they've been leaning on AI through their education? So very fascinating conversation, because I think, again, we've been talking about AI. A lot of times it's short term versus long term. And then we also had Felix, who was talking with us around AI and in the talent space and what that looks like. And that was just an illuminating conversation, not being in the talent field, but being adjacent, very much adjacent in our HR roles.

Marian Anderson: Right.

Kashadora: And so it was just. It was really interesting just getting to hear from these experts about these burgeoning areas that we have. And we also had. Is it Angelique? Uh, Angelique. I want to make sure I'm saying her name right. It's been too long. My brain's frozen.

Marian Anderson: Yeah, Angelique.

Kashadora: Angelique. And she was talking about just how people interact with data and how, like, all three of us, man, we wanted to nerd out so bad with what she was sharing about those data sets. And so it was really neat getting to hear how AI and tech are both aiding the chaos we work. We work and live through, but also abetting at the same time. But it was. I love. We, uh, had such great conversations.

Marian Anderson: And I do.

Kashadora: I think that regardless of the cluster we're thinking about, I mean, it's hard to not be able to cherry pick certain conversations that just not only stood out, but I think for each of us as people will kind of stand that test of time of things that we thought about, like even talking with, like, Deb. Right. And just how exuberant she is and how she looks at AI through such a different lens than other. Other people I've spoken to yet. So I just think it's a really interesting. It is an interesting time, but it's also one that is tempered. Yeah. Yeah.

Marian Anderson: And. And I just want to point out here as well, like, kind of adjacent to this again, but, you know, using Danny's favorite word. Yeah, I know.

Danny Glutch: I'm really infecting everyone with my word choices.

Marian Anderson: You are.

Kashadora: It's not suboptimal. Don't worry.

Marian Anderson: I know. I even. I even find myself saying milk toast at work quite a lot now, so.

Danny Glutch: It's such a good word.

Marian Anderson: I know, but you have to explain it to people because they don't know what it means. But, yeah, no, the. What was really cool, uh, just was having the Glasgow mafia join us, actually, you know, Mark. Mark Evans. I've known Mark since I was like 17, you know, so it was really cool being able to hang out with him through this context. And then obviously Alice Narna, another dear friend of mine, you know, someone who is uh, world class expert on internal crisis communications and being able to have two people that are very dear in my life, but really doing some incredible work and being able to, to bring that to our listeners was really cool. But yes, more Glasgow Mafia, please.

Danny Glutch: Can I say I am shocked by something. Shocked and borderline appalled. Marion did not think that the best cluster was future of work and flexibility. The one person who brings up return to office in the need for flexibility in every episode no matter what. Uh, Marion.

Kashadora: Marion Contrarian.

Danny Glutch: Yeah. No, no, no. I appreciate the objective stance and saying that you thought that that cluster C was, was, was the better one, but I'm gonna make the case for just like the. Personally where I still see it as such a difficult and interesting problem for organizations was brought up I, I think most clearly by Paul Myers having, uh, having to, to coordinate and work through and for the first time do a podcast with a deaf person. Yeah, and, and feeling that experience. Yeah, feeling that experience. But also like the, the struggles of understanding and trying not to offend, but also like give Paul a voice. And then in our conversations with him and actually experiencing how easy it was to communicate I thought was really personally very like eye opening and challenging.

Marian Anderson: Yeah.

Danny Glutch: But also seeing like organizations struggle to get there and like, even if there's an individual in your organization who has that sort of like consciousness and awareness of like, this is really what it's like getting these sort of collective awareness of uh, like no, no, no, this is gonna be fine and it's gonna feel like a risk, but it's not a risk. Paul's gonna like be incredible and seeing how like we still have a long ways to go in work fit and the future of work and part of that, you know, feeling really challenged by Dan Smolen. You know, a number of us are in some very large organizations and there's not a lot of that flexibility. And it's hard to find where you fit in work style. And hearing Dan's story and you know, all the conversations he has on his podcast with people finding their work fit was also just like, oh man, like if I was leading even a medium sized enterprise organization, like uh, what, what does implementing this look like for my people? What, what is the hiring? What is the structure? What, what's the long term strategy? What's the growth trajectory of? And you know, it's it's really interesting and I think if someone solves it, they're going to do very well for themselves and they'll sell lots of books and make a million dollars a year in consulting. But it's a really interesting problem. And you know, Michelle McDade, who, you know, in one of our more, more recent episodes that we released that conversation, feels like it was a long time ago. You know, it's, it really does emphasize how work flexibility is really just, it needs to be in the DNA. And, and I think, I think that's part of the answer to Paul's work fit. Right. And if organization really is flexible and malleable, then Paul would fit in just fine. But I think so much of the organizations just, they're so rigid and, and that's why that, that cluster for me, and I know it was one of our smaller, you know, we only had like three episodes that really dug in there, but for me that was just like such a challenging eye opening one.

Marian Anderson: Yeah. But what is really concerning is that rigidness that you speak of is getting worse.

Danny Glutch: Yeah.

Marian Anderson: You know, the compliant control, complying control, like we're starting to. It feels like there's a noose. Right. You know, metaphorically. But it feels like that, that tightening is, is, is, you know, more pronounced.

Danny Glutch: However,

Marian Anderson: uh, however at the time of recording this, we've noticed in our political landscape some significant shifts in the last week. Changes in allegiance, changes in, you know, that kind of dissemination of power, shall we say. And so my hypothesis is as that landscape shifts, hopefully in a better direction, I hope to see that, that same common sense and that same energy happen to play out in organizations again as well. We have to get back from this absolute place of auto, you know, autocracy and control and comply because we are killing our humans, we are killing ourselves. So I'm, I'm hopeful is that we go into next year, hopefully a shift in our political, economic, sociological energy will start to have a, uh, positive impact on workplaces. And I want to see Paul be hired. Ah, again, at time of recording, Paul is still unemployed. He's not had any offers. And that's heartbreaking because this is an incredibly intelligent, articulate, skilled and just, you

Danny Glutch: know, with the breadth of experience too.

Kashadora: Yeah, yeah, exactly, absolutely.

Marian Anderson: Why would you not want that in your workforce? You know, so, yeah, the one thing

Kashadora: I would want to add on to Danny, just on that, that rigidity, right. Like, because the flexibility, if it's not flexible, then it's rigid.

Marian Anderson: Right.

Kashadora: Like they've got those kind of like Two ends of the seesaw. I also think what it really speaks to, and I think, Marian, there's an underpinning to what you were talking about with our sociolog geopolitical climate is trust. Either organizations that give and have it and the ones that don't, and those who do have trust and provide trust as a two way engagement. They are flexible with their workforce and those who do not, either on one side or the other, that their workforce doesn't trust the organization or the organization doesn't trust the workforce or both. Those are the ones we're finding to be the most rigid.

Marian Anderson: Yeah.

Kashadora: So I think that that rigidity, like it not to simplify it and just funnel it down to it only comes down to trust and so much more to that. But do think that there's so many factors that impact it and that sociopolitical climate is definitely one of them.

Marian Anderson: I think 2026 is going to be a very interesting year because, you know, we're, we're in the last week, it's changed significantly. So let's see how that continues to play out.

Danny Glutch: Yeah, we need some more material scientists to find something that is both rigid and flexible. Come on. Yeah, so I guess we didn't power rank those very well.

Kashadora: We all liked everything we did d all of the above.

Marian Anderson: It was. But I think just to kind of bring all of that home, like the learning that I think we've all had just through the participation of these incredible guests, incredible thought leaders, diverse ranges of thought, the gift that that's given us and hopefully others that listen has been just invaluable.

Danny Glutch: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, absolutely.

Kashadora: Yes, I concur completely.

Danny Glutch: But we'll get to that more in depth in a later segment.

Marian Anderson: Okay.

Danny Glutch: Yes, but I, I think one of the things that I'm, I love so much about doing this podcast and, and the, the feedback we get from listeners and guests is our ability to, to rethink things, to dig deeper, to, to not just take things as they are. And one of our big projects that started kind of a year ago was rethinkability. And Marian, you, you really spearheaded this with your conversations with our dear friend Greer. And uh, tell us about again, you know, recapping what, what we really did for the conversation around disability accommodations in the workplace.

Marian Anderson: Yeah, I mean, if I, if I think back to. It's more than a year, right? It's actually, I mean it's probably, yeah,

Kashadora: year and a half. Ish. Something like that.

Marian Anderson: Yeah, like it's, it's been a long time making. But last Fall. Greer and I were having a catch up one day and you know, I was navigating accessibility accommodations and having a bit of a tough time with it. Uh, I'm not used to having to rely on other entities to make accommodations for me because I've always worked at home and been able to make my own right. And it was really tough to navigate. And that just kind of catalyzed a conversation around how HR practitioners are not equipped for this. No one trains us, no one takes us aside in HR school and tells us how to deal with accommodations and support disabled employees and, and to not uh, be ableist and all of that. No one does. Right. So we're winging it again. Hr the least psychologically safe in any organization and the ones that have the least amount of agency to up. Right. So when we, when we do maybe not do things in the best way when it comes to things like accessibility, it's really hard. And I, and I was, I faced um, a little bit of microaggressions and, and it just really opened my eyes to think how many times have I done this to someone else and not meant to. Right. Just to lack of knowledge, ignorance, you know. And so that's where that conversation started and we were like, wouldn't it be cool for there to be a resource for HR practitioners that they could really start to understand some of this stuff in a more thoughtful and deeper way? Not just if you have to apply for ada, this is what you do. Like no, that belt, the transactional. Yeah, that's fine. It's the, the deeper stuff and that's where that came from. And wow, what a journey that has been. You know, starting off building this, this real core group of, of our, uh, podcast production team, you know, us, Greer, Leah Sait, like that, pulling together those panels, those seven episodes where we really explored, you know, the impacts of not having a visible disability that people can instantly see. Having to battle stereotypes, having to navigate systems that were not built for us, that were not designed for us. Having to navigate the massive amount of ableism that exists in organizations and in society generally. And that has been one of the most transformative parts of my own disability journey. Getting to explore a lot of the emotions that I've had as I've kind of come to terms with being disabled and getting to learn from some of the best thought leaders that there are. I mean there's so many incredible people that contributed to the podcast, uh, alone, you know, Dr. Angela Young, Dr. Akilah Kaday, you know. Yep. Deb has like so many people that gave their time generously and their experiences, and it was phenomenal. And what was even more phenomenal was that then the continuation of that work into the summit, the three day summit that happened in October. And, you know, I facilitated on a panel myself. I attended a lot of it. Obviously did a good amount of work, as did you guys, behind the scenes with the production team. But really just proud of our friends Greer Prosich and Jessica Donahue, who really drove the three Day Summit initiative. And the feedback has been phenomenal. You know, there's people that work in the accessibility space who are seen as experts in the accessibility space, who have commented quite openly, that's phenomenal content. There was great stuff there. And so I'm excited to see where it goes next. It's certainly not the end of our disability advocacy work. It's only the beginning. But, God, it's something that, you know, I think that we're all pretty proud of.

Kashadora: Yeah, yeah, it was getting to see. I mean, that's the thing, right? Like, behind the scenes, we've seen it take this long to see something that happens in three days. And getting to see the amount of people in each session, how engaged everyone was in those sessions, the chats, the links that were being shared, people were just like, using it as an open forum to be able to really support each other. But also like the eye opening, right. Like, the openness in those was just so huge. And, you know, I think something. I think back to what Greer said, I think in the very first podcast we had with her, and I might butcher it a little bit, so I apologize in advance, career. But, you know, she always brings up that disability. It's not like you just sudden. You just. You've always had it. Everyone has a moment of disability or a lack of ability in their life, and it happens at any time. Right? Like you. It can happen tomorrow. You just don't know. And so understanding that ableism and how truly ingrained in our society and our structures it is, even if you just, uh, peel off a couple layers, you'll start to understand what disability looks like for a lot of people. Because like you said, Marianne, right. It's not always visible. In fact, most of the time it's not. So I think that people in the HR space and the people who found community in this as well, I think that, you know, there were a lot of boos to be had by all of the wonderful work that went into rethinkability. So, so proud of everybody.

Marian Anderson: Yeah, yeah.

Danny Glutch: It really was a phenomenal Experience. It was a lot of work. And thank you all. Thank you too, in particular, and thank you everyone who was involved in making that happen. There were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of labor put in to make that happen. And I think we did a really good job hearing from, from guests and from listeners on those podcasts about how refreshing it was for it not just to be a disability conversation that just has to cram every aspect of disability and the disability experience into one conversation, but where we gave it space to really just focus on different parts and really let it be a whole conversation just about the different elements of.

Marian Anderson: Yeah.

Danny Glutch: And that was really eye opening to me. It made my philosopher heart very warm, taking a very systematic approach to understanding it. And it really did help me understand, you know, just what it is to both experience it and to take it on as an HR practitioner, um, in a much deeper level.

Marian Anderson: Yeah. And I'm just proud of working with such, you know, an incredible collaboration of folks who just wanted to give HR practitioners, leaders, anyone, really just give them grace to know that it's okay when you don't know it's okay. No one expects you to know. No one trains you on this stuff. And, you know, let's dialogue it and let's see what we can all learn together. And that's the thing, right? It's about community, it's about collaboration. It's about get ace and support and love. At the end of the day, gotta sound like a hippie.

Kashadora: Peace and love, baby.

Marian Anderson: Peace and love. Peace and love.

Danny Glutch: I lived in San Francisco for a very long time. I have a. A soft spot for hippies. Okay, on to the next section. We have I. So I know we have our oh, shit what now Episodes are our sort of like emergency podcast episodes, which hopefully we'll have more time for but less need for in 2026.

Marian Anderson: So unlikely love, unlikely.

Danny Glutch: But we also have the oh, shit moments that we all, the three of us have while we're talking to guests of like, just mind blown eye open, like we just learned something. So I'm calling this the oh, shit, I learned something awards from 2025. What are, what are some of the nominees? What are some moments where. Where you were just like slack jawed, like, oh my God, that was incredible. I can't believe I just heard that.

Marian Anderson: I, uh, mean, when I was editing back the episode with Michelle and, you know, I had sort of like inadvertently set up the battery hen sort of analogy for her and she brought it home because I think I said something like, you Know, no one wants to feel like they're a battery hen in the office. And Michelle just really brought that home and said, no. Like, why battery hands? Like, no, we want to be free range. Which Danny then jumps on because he's like, I want to be a free range employee. But that analogy of just talking about eggs and chickens, like really, God, it was powerful and it got a lot of traction on LinkedIn and a lot of people kind of like coming back and, and, and really talking about that and, and I think about it a lot now. I think about three range. Yeah, three range. What a beautiful way to just explain to people what are free range hands? Free range hands are in some form of parameter. Right. They're not just wandering the wilds of wherever they're in a parameter, but they're not. K. Well, they're maybe our cage, but I'm talking like a big cage. But they're certainly not, they're certainly not in a, in a chicken coop battery environment. Right. But they are able to roam and explore and, and um, produce higher quality eggs than those who are basically churning them out under, you know, micromanagement environment. So, like, it was really powerful. And I think that's an analogy that, that I'll use until the end of my days.

Danny Glutch: That's a good one. Kasha, what about you?

Kashadora: Uh, I love that, I love that. It's funny, these moments that we have them in the conversations and sometimes time goes by and you're like, I forgot about that. That was so good. I think the thing for me, like kind of just reflecting on a lot of our episodes was, is kind of going back and I mentioned it just briefly, but it really is that that disability aspect of disability is something that is unpredictable and it can happen at any time. And it's so powerful. Right? Like, you could have disability that might last a week, you could have disability that's for the rest of your life. And navigating things and what disability looks like for everyone is a very individualistic experience, even though there is a collective of people there to support you because they're in it with you, even though they have their own individualistic experience. And I think that that was something that genuinely stood out to me. Like, I considered myself someone who was semi knowledgeable about disability and what that looked like from my own personal experience as an individual with relatives. But, you know, thinking about Leah and her story of her interaction with her a, uh, manager and her have. Using her use of a wheelchair, which is something that she was so excited to have and so Proud to have. It was like a crowning moment for her. She'd gotten it. She was so thrilled. And this individual who apparently didn't think, you know, was like, well, do you. Can you not use it? Like, it doesn't look great for business, like, and it just kind of just squashed her in that moment. And these tools that we use every day to help us, whatever it is, right? Dimming the lights or having a wheelchair or needing a certain type of chair to help support while you are sitting, these things that we use, they make it so we can do everything we need to do. Uh, and it's an individual journey. And I think that it was just very eye opening and in my mind, a beautiful way to what everyone else has been experiencing and things that in my head, I couldn't conscionably even

Marian Anderson: think

Kashadora: that someone would treat another human that way. But also knowing that that's the work that's there to be done, it was like, this is horrible. But now I know.

Marian Anderson: Yeah.

Kashadora: And it did. It sat like every episode, regardless of who was speaking about what. And in those panels, like, there were just almost too many things to kind of call out. But yeah, the.

Marian Anderson: Yeah.

Kashadora: Every time we've heard, um, Leah share about her, that experience with her wheelchair, it's like being hit with a block of ice again for the first time. And it really was like, wow. Like, it is. It's a learning moment, and it should be a learning moment, you know, for people.

Danny Glutch: It's a strong nominee for the oh, should I learn something Award.

Marian Anderson: Sure, Stani.

Danny Glutch: You know. Okay, so I'm super torn and I've been torn on this kind of. Actually, I wasn't torn on this. I was super set until we just recorded with Radica Dut. And now it's torn. Okay, So I was for sure 100% going to do Cassandra Babilia. And the idea of what burnout really is and where she talked about apathy and the. The loss of seeing yourself there in the future. Just like, I'm getting chills right now thinking about it because I think that applies to more than just work, like relationships. I think we've all been in relationships where it's like, oh, wow, I just can't envision myself with this person in the future anymore. Like, uh, and what that feels like, and it's all of your energy that you could have put into it is just gone. And I think that's really one of those things that happens to people at work where it's just like, oh, there's no future here for me. And now I all of a sudden have no feeling of competency. I just, I don't have the energy to put in that, that level of work that actually I would enjoy in any way or feel proud of. And it's just gone.

Marian Anderson: It's a masterclass in understanding how burnout directly impacts psychological contract. Right, Absolutely. And it really was. And just, just. Well, it's in my head. I just want to recognize some of the work that Cassandra's done this year, particularly within, um, the federal workers community, because being ex CIA and then seeing everything that happened at the beginning of the year with Doge and all the cuts, she's done some absolutely incredible work helping previously, you know, federal workers translate the, the, I don't know, civilian, non federal work environment and help, you know, be able to kind of translate those skills into different way. So just. Sorry, Danny, didn't want to derail, but just when you talked about Cassandra, I just wanted to shout out, she's done some absolutely incredible work this year.

Danny Glutch: Yeah, absolutely. She's incredible. Everyone should go find her. And uh, that's something that I will always. Just that conversation, and particularly that part because we hear burnout all the time and there's so many studies and, and half the time I don't believe the studies because I don't think it's well defined when people are self reporting on burnout, where they're just tired or they, they feel like they're worked a lot and it's like. But that's, that's not really what burnout is. And she did.

Kashadora: Yeah, burnout, mental, it's physical, it's emotional. Full body system. Right. It's not just one component.

Danny Glutch: And she did the best I've ever heard of actually answering that. And it's, it's something that I hope gets more traction because I think more people, you know, as the philosopher, like, if people use the word in the right way, it'll be better because that's why we have different words for different things. And that just, that was, that was 100% what I was going to choose. And then I got torn because of our most recent conversation with Radhika Dut about goal setting and how, how we set goals and how we aim for goals is one of the big problems that creates an environment that just cannot have things like psychological safety or innovation and uh, all of that stuff. And it was just like kind of shaken to the bone. I've had a few conversations with her now, and it's happened every time where it's just like, oh my God, like, as long as this exists, we're never going to have that trust or that, that freedom of the feel of failure and things like that that are necessary for psych safety. And it's. That was, that was an oh, shit moment.

Marian Anderson: It was, it was really powerful. It really was.

Kashadora: I had conversations afterward with that too. Same thing.

Marian Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. And actually I just ordered her book. The, the first book. Yeah. So I'm gonna read that while I'm convalescing over the holidays from my surgery. But just real, really refreshing take on goal setting and the, that goes along with it. And I think at um, a macro level it really just highlights the amount of nonsensical employee life cycle work that continues to happen without any thought because it's just what we do down here. And actually she stood back and went, this is, this is crap. It's not.

Kashadora: And she backed it up with, with all of the, the, the data and the evidence and like where it came from and like, and, and like where. Why it worked then. Right. Which I think like when, when that episode comes out, like that's the thing, right? Those, that goal setting worked for those periods then because of a very specific thing and we don't have those specific things now.

Marian Anderson: Yeah, absolutely.

Danny Glutch: So that one for me, it just, I had to bring it up. I, I still don't know which one I would choose of the two because they were both, both literally like changed the fabric of how I see the world, which is.

Marian Anderson: I, I ah, feel like I, I just actually just want to shout out just one other episode that I think got. I honestly could go every episode. But I just want to talk about probably the impact that Danny Weam's episode had on me. Oh yes.

Kashadora: I, um, got to cite him in one of my papers.

Marian Anderson: Yeah.

Danny Glutch: You know what?

Marian Anderson: I, I got, I got to contribute to his book. So now.

Kashadora: Okay, you win, you win, you win.

Marian Anderson: But I also got to contribute to Alison's book, which was really cool. So I am in two books this year, but Danny's. Our conversation with Danny around psychopathy, Narcissism. Machiavellianism.

Kashadora: No, the dark triad.

Marian Anderson: The dark triad. Like I now look at, uh, leadership behaviors in a very different way to what I did before. And I now recognize the importance of, of those three elements in leaders. Uh, you need to have a certain amount of, of psychopathy, Machiavellianism, you know, narcissism in leaders to operate effectively, but not to the extremes that we see. And you know, our favorites like Musk and Jesse and all the other ones. And jobs. Yeah. You know, like it truly existed. Right. So, like, I just wanted to kind of shout that one out. I, uh, think Danny's work's exceptional. And what. Just what a nice guy as well. Fun to hang out with.

Danny Glutch: Yeah, no, that one, that. That really was a great. It was just so hard to like find a nugget or. Because the whole conversation was just like, I have to think about this for a very long time.

Marian Anderson: Yeah, absolutely.

Danny Glutch: Okay, so last award. The Whoa, Nelly. For the biggest elephant of, uh, sort of HR work world 2025. So I mean, we had quite a few of the. The big massive layoffs. Sherm dropping equity. That was. That was a big one. Meta's just constant issues with never being masculine enough.

Kashadora: Whatever, whatever.

Danny Glutch: Just draw a mustache on your logo and be done with it. Come on. Yeah, the deal versus rippling the Just like espionage. Spygate.

Marian Anderson: One of our best episodes. One of our most listened to episodes this year. Everyone was jumping on that one.

Danny Glutch: Yeah, well, one that we missed the cycle but the Coldplay CEO CPO canoodling.

Marian Anderson: Yes.

Danny Glutch: I don't even know what to call it.

Marian Anderson: The smooching CEO and CPO who were definitely not playing cold.

Kashadora: Um.

Danny Glutch: Uh, you were so proud of that, Mary.

Marian Anderson: I know, I know. It was a good one. It was a good one. But I just want to go back to the Sherm one again. Like, I'm sorry, right, But I have been asking now with the SHRM blueprint conference happened right at the same time we were doing the rethinkability summit. So my attention was very much not on it. However, I was very cognizant of them having Van Jones and Robbie Starbuck to hammer out the whole thing around dei, which was just nauseating, to be frank. And, And I've been asking, hey, what were the takeaways? Did anything good come out of it? You know, did anyone learn anything? Silence. No, I don't know which one that went. And. And those who I did know that were planning to go, they backed out. And I know a few of our friends have been asking the same question in the LinkedIn community. Did anyone get anything? It just crickets. And so the bits that I did manage to claim were not great, were not positive. It did not sound like it. It was conversation worth anything. But really that for me was such a disappointing, uh. Just as I thought Sherm couldn't get any lower, they got to a whole new level of low point. And for me, if I'd had any kind of thoughts about My loyalties and funding them as an organization for any resources and what have you. That's gone now. I'm done. That was the final nail in the coffin, unfortunately.

Danny Glutch: Can I make a case. Can I make a case for the CEO and CPO at the Coldplay concert being the biggest elephant or whatever thing that happened? Because literally everyone.

Kashadora: Everything by it.

Danny Glutch: Like it was the only topic other than 6, 7 that I could talk about with the. The kids knew. We're talking like 7 and 11 year olds, you know, about the Coldplay concert.

Kashadora: You know, it's on a whole other level. You know, it's on a whole other level when you've got mascots. Mascots at games doing it with the other team's mascot.

Danny Glutch: Yes. I think the biggest revelation is that you were watching a sports event.

Kashadora: Who's. The Phillies.

Danny Glutch: The fanatic is incredible. But yeah, I, uh. Marion, I think you're right. I think Sherm just had a hell of a 2025 derogatory and.

Kashadora: And it hit. It hit our. Our field. Right. Like, I think that's almost the difference. Like, if you're only looking at like, what was the award for like the HR and HR adjacent space, the Sherman the Sher move. Because it was like a. A betrayal. Right. Like of um, all the things working so hard to achieve. And it just was a cow towel move. It was just not. Not for what people were trying to do. But I also completely grabbed me your tiebreaker and be like, I grew up with both of you. I'm talking on both sides of my mouth. But also like, when you look at it from like, ah, this. The whole Coldplay cpo C. CEO moment that moved out of the HR space. Now that was just like there are memes you're seeing. Like there were people using AI to use different characters to have like to emulate that. Like, it took on a whole life of its own. And the sad part, the truly sad part was if they had done nothing,

Danny Glutch: no one would have noticed.

Marian Anderson: Exactly.

Kashadora: But they. The way that they reacted is what caused the storm. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Glutch: They're not. They're not like, visually famous. Like, no one would have known them. They are the most milquetoast looking white people I've ever seen. And had they just played it cool, no one would have cared.

Marian Anderson: I know. But the only thing for me that was missing out, uh, of that entire thing is that come the weekend, SNL did not cover it as a skit because that would have been goal.

Kashadora: They didn't.

Marian Anderson: No, no. But I wish they had because that would have been brilliant. Yeah, that's too funny.

Danny Glutch: All right.

Marian Anderson: Although, let's just shout out Gwyneth Paltrow.

Danny Glutch: Yes. That was so good.

Kashadora: That was brilliant. 10 out of 10 marketing move. That one.

Marian Anderson: Yeah.

Danny Glutch: Okay, so are we gonna go the each good award or are we going to.

Kashadora: With Sherm? I feel like they both. I think they get a glow. Like get a global award and an hr.

Danny Glutch: HR Specific. Okay, perfect.

Marian Anderson: All right, cool.

Danny Glutch: Okay. And as we wrap up, what's one thing you want to carry with us into 2026? God, that's 2026.

Kashadora: My God, I'm graduating in 2026. I'm carrying that into it.

Marian Anderson: Hopefully I am, too. Gosh.

Danny Glutch: Both of you.

Kashadora: Yes.

Danny Glutch: Add some letters to those names.

Marian Anderson: Yeah, I know. Oh, uh, I don't know. I. I feel like 2025 was just a bit of a cesspool of a year, just in terms of all things employee psychologically related. And I want to see. I want to see a shift in that energy, and I think that that's going to. Going to come from a lot of places. I think that that needs to come through the continued hard work of the people in our profession and adjacent professions and lifting people up and. And continue to really think about learning and upskilling and. And changing skills as opposed to, well, AI is taking your job now, you know, but unfortunately, we're still seeing things happen. Like what? Trump just declassified nursing as a profession. I mean, as a professional career, that makes me want to punch myself and him in the face. So I think that the people that are doing the work, the people that are the thought leaders on LinkedIn, that are contributing to our podcast, that are sharing all of their gifts and skills, I want to see that continue because we need that and we have to continue to transform the world of work, because Sherm should as aren't doing it, so we should do it.

Kashadora: Yeah, I think. I think, uh, being able to make sure to have that balance of being present, but also not killing yourself with the reality of the news cycle that's going on. And I think that that is something that we need to do as humans. We need to do as leaders. We need to do as people who are in departments that take on a lot of weight. We need to know what's going on, but we also need to be able to draw boundaries and have those boundaries be something that serve the people we help and serve us at the same time. I don't think boundary is a dirty word. And I think because of what we've had Going on over the last couple years and the sociopolitical economic move moves that have happened, it's very easy to burn out there, not just on your job. So I think uh, being aware isn't a bad thing. And I think also like there's a gift in being present. I think it'll help people be able to see the good things instead of only focusing on the things that have been negative or have been weighing them down. Because the news cycles can be very much in that way. Uh, for me it's about being present but also being able to actually take in things through a boundary line.

Marian Anderson: Yeah, absolutely. Mhm.

Danny Glutch: I don't know what I want to take into 2026. I, I'm really looking for a deeper conversation beyond trust. Right. I. Because everyone, trust is one of those like loaded words where, you know, some people are like, no, trust has to be earned and once trust is broken, it's done. And I feel like we, we, we need something that's, that can live a little bit better in the average workplace. And I don't know if it's charity or generosity but, but something where people can bring this attitude so that the people they work with have that feeling where they're free range workers. Right. Just whatever it is, I want that conversation to go further so that we can actually like pin down what it is that helps people feel less like battery heads. Gosh, that is another one of those oh shit moments. Maybe you were right, Marian. Maybe that's the one.

Marian Anderson: I think so.

Danny Glutch: Oh, that was such a good episode. Okay, well, good luck to us in 2026. Thank you all for listening. This was such a fun experience. We are going to be taking a slight break so we can all enjoy the holidays and you can too. I'm sure there's a bunch of these episodes you all need to catch up on. Be sure to leave a comment on which one you did was your favorite episode or which one you listened back to and really enjoyed and think others should listen to. Any last thoughts, Kasha or Marian?

Marian Anderson: No, just happy holidays. Enjoy the time, be present. As Kasha says, be with those that you love and eat lots of nice things and you know, let's do it all again next year.

Kashadora: Yep, couldn't have said it better myself.

Danny Glutch: Oh, and when you're with your time with your family being super present, be sure to like and subscribe. Subscribe the podcast feed and leave a five star review because that's the most important thing. That's the reason for the whole season.

Marian Anderson: Amen.

Danny Glutch: Uh, again you guys can find us on LinkedIn. Reach out to us if you have any ideas for great guests. Or if you have an elephant you'd like us to address. Thank you all very much. We'll see you next year.

Marian Anderson: I woke up to a new dawn

Danny Glutch: break and you were on my bike. Mhm.

Kashadora: There's so many roads still worth taking.

Danny Glutch: There's no more wasting time. Are you ready for the ship?