Mark Evans — Skills To Becoming a Business-Building Marketing Leader

And if the language on your homepage sounds like the language on their homepage, then you've got a brand positioning problem. So without compelling and clear brand positioning, you're really running with one arm tied behind your back. Welcome to the Marketing Leadership Podcast brought to you by Listen Network. Join your host, Dot Oyobulu, as He learns from CMOs, agency leaders and business leaders about the state of performance marketing. Plus insights on strategies, campaigns and intelligence for commercial impact. Connect the dots and enjoy the latest episode. Hi marketers, this is Dot and welcome to the Marketing Leadership Podcast. With me here is Mark Evans, fractional CMO at Marketing Spark. And today we'll be giving you the skills to becoming a business building marketing leader. Not just any marketing leader, a business building one. So if you're ready, you want to strap in. Mark, welcome. How are you doing? I'm great. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about marketing. I'm very excited. So, yeah, it's, it's great to be talking to you. Absolutely. So do you want to, you know, start by, start off by tell us, telling us about yourself, your background, and now you are in what I call the fractional CMO promised land, you know, making all the money. I'm making all the money. Yeah. I wish it was that easy. So I started my career as a technology journalist with two of Canada's national newspapers and Bloomberg News. And I kind of stumbled into marketing and the startup world. And since 2008 I've been running a one man show called Marketing Spark. And I offer fractional CMO and strategic advisory services to mostly SaaS businesses. And many of them, most of them are under $5 million in sales and they're doing little or no marketing. So they need a quarterback. They need someone to help them figure out what to do, who to target, and then actually help them make marketing happen. That's Marketing Spark in a nutshell. Yeah, absolutely. And thanks so much for mentioning that as well. So in going into the topic here, I don't think there's a starting point. I mean, I do a bit of marketing strategy myself, but I know brand positioning is just a very key attribute. Right, right. Of, of any marketing leader. The ability to find product market fit is just key, you know, and if you don't agree with me, you want to ask Alphabet and what they are going through with their OAI Chatbot right now. Finding product market fit is very, very, very important in terms of being successful at that. Mark, what are some of the factors that come into play to be able to find a very good Product market fit, whether the product line level or at the individual product level, or even at a brand level, I might add. Well, I can talk to the value of brand positioning when it comes to driving product market fit. One of the things that the reality is of any marketplace is that they're fiercely competitive. You're battling dozens, if not hundreds of rivals in the CRM space. For example, I read some content recently that suggested there are 1600 different types of CRM systems out there. So you can imagine how hard it is to rise above the fray. And even if you've got product market fit, your ability to stand out from the crowd is really hard. So that's why brand positioning matters, and it's why I start with brand positioning with every single client that I work with. Because if you don't have a clear story, a powerful story, then it's hard to attract and engage the best and the right prospects. Everybody walks like you, talks like you, sounds like you, says the same things than you that you do. That's a very dangerous place to be. And if you're an entrepreneur and you want to know if you've got good brand positioning, look at your website and then review the websites of your closest three or four competitors, the people that keep you up at night. And if the language on your homepage sounds like the language on their homepage, then you've got a brand positioning problem. So without compelling and clear brand positioning, you're really running with one arm tied behind your back. And I would, I would argue, isn't that the current issue with B2B SAS companies these days? Like if you look at, say, CRM software, for example, I can bet you that down to the search ad, everybody's using almost the same thing. So what do you say to them? So you would think that every CEO, every entrepreneur would be obsessed with brand positioning. You would think that they would invest heavily in trying to differentiate themselves. They would do customer research, they would do competitive audits, they would assess their own strengths and weaknesses. In an ideal world, that sounds like a no brainer. But in the real world, the world in which I unfortunately operate, is that a lot of entrepreneurs and CEOs don't see brand positioning as a strategic priority. It is a nice to have, not a must have. And I think that has to do with the economic landscape in many respects. So the biggest priority for, for many companies, for most companies is that needs to survive so they can thrive. And so they lean hard into tactical execution. It's all about leads, leads, leads, you know, so they can drive sales. But they ignore the fundamentals. They ignore brand positioning and, and clear messaging and having a strategic plan that actually makes it all come together. And as a result, they don't understand when their tactical execution doesn't work or it's not as successful as they need to be. And I'm a big believer in the fact that you look at marketing as, as building a house or building a condo or a skyscraper. It's all the same. If the thing is going to stay up for a long period of time, you need a rock solid foundation. And if you don't have good brand positioning, then the house is going to fall down. But unfortunately it's, it's just not a must have right now. And it's something that puzzles me, that frustrates me, that confuses me. I sort of, I'm exasperated in some, some sense. I feel like, feel like Don Quixote, you know, Don Quixote who, you know, sort of tilted against windmills and was wildly unsuccessful. But that's what I feel like. I feel like I'm waving the flag for brand positioning but not enough people listen to me. But it is super important. And I think I am sensing a lot more companies are recognizing that it's something I was going to say that. Yeah, there's signals out there that tell me maybe I'm, I'm finally getting through to people. Yeah. Because if you dive deep into the concept of demand generation, something B2B for example, claims they invented what I would call a, a marriage of brand and performance marketing. So it's not too hard, it's not too soft as well. Yeah. I think people are slowly starting to recognize why it's important, you know, to have brand positioning in play. And yeah, great analogy with the building there. I would prefer the marriage analogy because it's just very romantic, you know. So. Yeah, well, one, I, I will pick up a little bit on your, on your on your demand gen comment is a lot of entrepreneurs buy into the idea that if we build it, they will come. You know, that the idea that if we build a better mousetrap or a product that we think is, has a lot of value, then naturally people are going to discover it and they'll become prospects and then customers. And unfortunately it doesn't work that way because as I said earlier, there's way too much competition, so much noise out there. So demand generation is predicated on having a narrative that breaks through the noise for. Differentiates that narrative. Yeah, yeah, for whatever. And, and here's the thing is that it doesn't have to be a big differentiator. It can be something really small, something that you're really good at that no one else does or offers. And you can rally around that point of differentiation and that allows you to capture someone's attention for whatever reason. But without that, then you're all trying to drive demand generation with the same story, and that doesn't work. Yeah, thanks for mentioning that. I completely agree with that. We marketers are fan of extremes, right? Oh, this is what is working now. Let's dump everything else and go to it. But being able to balance it up, I think is something that will help us in the long run, I would say. And I'm sure you agree with this, you have to have that difference. Not well, I don't want to use that, but unique value that you're proposing to your, to your new icp, right? You have that first. And then whatever storytelling mechanism that you're using, including demand generation, might be something that have mixing that together should, you know, be able to drive. Of course. That's not the only thing that makes a business work. That's not the only thing that retains customers. I've often spoken a lot about this podcast or writing online on our obsession or over acquisition instead of retention. Another topic for another day. But it all plays out into what, what is a great mix to drive great commercial value? Especially if you are the marketing leader, you need to be the level head, right? You shouldn't be the guy that is panicking when others are. You should be the. The you were given all those big bucks for a reason. So strategy is important. Okay, next question. In a way, you answer two of my questions. So I'll skip to the, the third one which is in the implementation stage. You know, digital transformation. You know, you are doing brand, you're doing performance, you are doing all these kinds of marketing, direct marketing, blah, blah, blah, executing on your strategy. But there's also because of the tech agent, which you are now. And some people will say, you know, we might see singularity before we die. We'll see how that goes. There's so much, you know, need for digital transformation to make communication easier, to even increase the overall experience, brand experience from the customer's perspective. Now, for marketing leaders who are trying to like up their game, my me included, how, how can they increase their, you know, ability to influence what I call transformational organizational change. And happy to put you on the spot here, Mark, you said that you've been doing a lot in trying to drive the need for brand Churning. And there is, that's a transformation problem in itself there. A tech element. You, you obviously have solved it, otherwise you will have found another job. You know, maybe I don't know, being a musician or something like that. Do you do music by any chance? No, I'm a sort of. I wish I did, but dream or, you know, you'll have found another job. So how are you able to resolve that? How were you able to drive organizational change for brand growth in such a way that people are able to not just starting to like brand positioning, but now they are even doing it or even some of the other things where brand transformation or digital transformation is always involved in, you know, online presence, commercial operationalization. Too many grammars here. But yeah, how did you crack it? That's a really good question. And I think it has to do a lot to education. And one of the things that I focus on, especially with smaller clients who don't have a lot of marketing sophistication or, or experience, is that there's a lot of handholding that goes around with smaller organizations that they don't have the confidence, they don't have the know how to move forward. And what I'm doing is educating them, encouraging them, motivating them and guiding them along the way. So as a, as a marketing consultant, there's the thinking that you make a lot of strategic proclamations and then once you give them your plan, then they go out and do their own thing. And, and I take a bit of a hybrid approach is that I'll show them what to do and then I'll actually do it with them. And I think marketers in many organizations need to be change agents or catalysts. They cannot sit on, they cannot sort of be the, the person who basically points and tells everyone, go over there, go over there, and then leaves everyone to their own devices. So I think within any organization, if you want to implement change, then you need evangelists, ambassadors, advocates, catalysts, people who are going to, who are going to talk the talk, but as important, walk the walk and, and show people how they're going to move forward, move forward with confidence. So that's the general approach that I take. And sometimes companies get it. They rally around the importance of branding and strategy and sometimes, sometimes it takes them a while and sometimes they don't. And it has a lot to do with our organizational culture and the ability to not only embrace change, but actually make it happen. So yeah, it can be a hit and miss proposition, but you do your best in terms of being involved and engaged and hopefully they go along for the ride with you. I love that. So I'll hold that thought and holding or know coordination, collaboration, not, not to be mistaken with micromanagement guys. So let's be careful here. I want my podcast to survive. Then the second bit that you said that I love is in the culture. I think sometimes, you know, as you're doing this, hopefully you influence some sort of culture. But at the beginning, it's not always the same. Like, it's not always like that. It's always like, you know, these are, we've done things, you know, let's just keep doing it like that. I don't want to risk anything. It has always worked, right. There's also that as well. And you trying to drive, you know, the, the transformation basically around that. And what I will say is that this issue is more prevalent than we think. And I had to face that. You know, in the last few years I've made a lot of successes, which is why I'm saying that now. But back in the day it was a lot of issues like know and. But I think one of the things that also helped me two things is communication. Marketers are very good and if you like slander me online for this, but we are very good at making stuff up. We are very good at packaging stuff, making sure the report looks good, showing the positive side, maybe a little of negative side. So it shows that we are human. But what I do is absolute communication. If I pitch an idea to you and you know, you, you stressed enough to let me try it, if it doesn't work, I'm going to tell you it doesn't work. I did not expect this. It doesn't work. Let's move on. That way you build trust with your stakeholders, right? So that, that way if you bring in another test, then they will say, well, if it doesn't work, it's going to tell us, right? So that is my own, you know, mindset to that. Always communicating, of course, a lot of internal, like, you know, you are making decks, you are making proposals. You mentioned that hit or miss proposals using as much data as possible. You know, you are citing external sources. And when citing external sources, what I do is I look at the guys that are going to approve it and I get sources from people that they follow. So that, because there's always that sentiment, right? If it's someone I follow online, I follow Mark. If you say something, even if I didn't want to approve it before, it's to going to work out. So there's A bit of, as one of the few guests would say, love being involved, but at the end of the days, being honest and staying true to yourself throughout that test is key. If it's not working, let them know it's not working. Even though it's your idea. Because you always love to defend our, our stuff. I just wanted to add that there as well. But yeah, if you want to add more to the. Please, no, no. And I would, I would add that, that collaboration is key. But I think one of the keys to success for many marketers within organizations is establishing partnerships, true partnerships with the CEO, with the head of sales, with the head of customer success and product development and not being the marketer who just sort of when they say jump you, the marketer says how high should I jump? But being at the table and being involved in guiding the company forward from a sales and marketing and product perspective. And if you're seen as a partner, if you're seen as someone who has value and, and there's, there are defined rules of engagement, then marketers can be more successful when they're, when they're only seen as people who are responsible for generating leads. And if, if leads don't happen, then that's a failure, then that's a really bad place to be. You can't be a change engine if you're just being an order taker. You have to be a leader. I'm sorry to cut you short. It's a tough place to be. Mark. Like you're telling me to get out of my comfort zone where I just did my thing and get into like sales targets. For example. You know, I work for content allies, I work for Listen network. I have sales targets. I'm a marketer. Right? I, because of my experience I've grown to embrace that I guess value of the shadow of debt. But many marketers don't want to do that, you know, and that was that what it takes to be in the table? So how do you encourage those who are developing a code feed to get a little bit uncomfortable so you can sit in the, in the table and become relevant and form those partnerships, hopefully make your influence better? Well, at the end of the day as a marketer you can talk about MQLs and SQLs and all the other metrics that, that you do to justify your job, but there's a, there's a, a trend or a, it's a movement or about revenue. KPIs ultimately marketers success or failure is based on revenue. If the company sales grow, it doesn't really matter what kind of marketing you do because you have a marketing mix. But if the company sales grow, then you're a hero. If company sales don't grow, then obviously marketing hasn't done its job. So as a marketer, if you're not aligned with the head of sales, with the sales organization, if you don't know what their goals are and you understand how you can support them and make them more successful by indirect support or direct support, then you're not going to be as successful as you need to be. So to operate in isolation, to not have allies within the organization that you can go to war together, then then you're going to be at a disadvantage. And as a marketer you don't want to be that. And so either you can do that and be successful or you can be scared and you can fail. And you have to decide as a marketer, you know how you're going to die. You're going to go to war and you're going to die anyway. Right, exactly. So which battle are you going to fight? And I'd rather fight the good fight as opposed to sort of hide in the, in the, you know, in the trenches and hope that no one goes after me. Right. So it's just the attitude and the realities of if market, if revenue doesn't grow then, then it, then the focus is on marketing to that it hasn't done its job, you know, not a good place to be. Yeah. And I do so a couple of consulting myself and I. If you go to my website now you see transparent marketing strategies. What that means is that I don't have many companies I consult with because if you want to work with me then you need to understand my that I am with you on the revenue journey. You know, I'm ready to put my head on that chopping block. But you also need to understand, you know, how the human nature works with marketing in that space. And I think people are always afraid to get into the revenue discussion because sometimes also stakeholder expectations are a bit unrealistic, especially small to mid sized businesses. So at the end of the day for me is basically like this is what it is. If you want to work with me, fine. If not, you know, maybe you can find somebody else who can give you miracles. I've had two examples of that where these people, they let me go until today they are still at a stalemate because it's just the way it is. You know, if you think it's a shortcut to revenue, you know, with marketing then you can Find somebody else. So that is one approach. But just like Mark said, you just, you just have to take the. You it's either you fight alone or you fight together. Is it's good that you, that you fight together and make your customers happy. So that, that would be my. I know we could go on and on about this, but it's something I say all the time and if you're listening or watching, you are hearing this from, you know, one of the best in the world at it if you want to be a marketing leader again. So hopefully that helps. Guys, all I'm asking for you is to share. You see all the great things we've been discussing so far. If I want, I could package this into a course and sell to you guys and I'll send it in thousands. You will buy it. You know, I'll put all the sweet words in there so that you guys will buy. But we're giving this for free. So please, it will help if you just share with somebody else. Share with a marketer who is about to become a director and above. You know, I'm not saying other levels below that are not leaders, but sometimes when you're getting into marketing leadership, the pressure is in your face sometimes or is in your ear. You know, your ears grew whiter. You want to share this with them maybe. Hopefully it becomes one of those additional resources that they can also use to to navigate their career and grow their brand. One more question for Mark. I wish we go on and on, but we're almost coming over time. But it's going to be after the DOT Rapid fire. A very, very odd fire. But so far it looks like we are both prepped. We will survive it. I'm going to go through that battle. I will have actually called the dots battlefire since we've been talking about battle all day long. But anyway, stay with us guys. You know I'm keeping the best question for the last so don't go anywhere. This be an exciting one. Do love marketing with the marketing Leadership podcast. Stay with us. This episode is brought to you by Listen Network where podcasts meet their potential. If you're a brand needing podcast episode promotion or podcast follower promotion list, Listen Network is here to give you the best in class. Analytics, podcast growth, attribution and podcast promotion success. Find out more@www.listennetwork.co. guys, welcome back. Like I said, this is DOS Rapid Fire. It's three questions, Mark. You say the truth and nothing but the truth. Are you ready? I'm ready. Fire away. Okay, good. What is Your first marketing metric, apart from sales or revenue conversations. I would say that in, in SaaS, conversations matter. People sell to people. So the more conversations you have, the better. Yeah. Love it. Okay, I like that. Second question. How long do you use social media every day for work? Do you want the truth or you want me to lie? I want, I want the truth. Don't worry, you might be shocked. And I'll grade it. I'll say two hours a day. Okay, two hours a day is the second most popular time. The most popular is one hour. Then we have two hours, then we have orders. So people go from 15 minutes to six hours and so on and so forth. But trust me, if you are on social media for work, no matter how long it is, you know, you're definitely not playing. No, we are in the cold recession, as I would call it, so we all gotta survive. Okay, last question. What is your favorite marketing quote? Plan the work and work the plan. So when it comes to strategy, you plan what you're going to do and then you work that plan. So that's. Yeah, that's my, that's my go to. When it comes to strategy advice. Yeah, I love the second part. I. I will say this anyway. I'm a fan of history, so marketing history, tech history, and of course, even for the most casual of ears and eyes, the. The movie the Social Network is something that is very familiar. But if you're really looking at every side of that movie, you see that, you know, if Facebook did not execute, they won't be here today. You know, everybody has ideas. Oh, I don't want someone to know. No, it's all about the execution. Execute. Right, but execute anyway, so I thank you so much for, for sharing that too. Okay, so the last question. People listening one day want to become CMOs and the role is changing. And I'll tell you some of the things that I see. Especially even in Canada, people go from CMOs, especially in the fast food industry, they go from CMOs to CEOs of the Canadian version of that market. Like the Canada market. I've seen that happen a couple of times. A few of that is happening in the US like Taco Bell. There is the role in itself changing from CMO to chief customer officer, chief accounts officer, so on and so forth. Can you tell us why that is happening? Can you tell us? I mean, I want to get. I mean, I would like to gauge that it's a good thing. But I love the fact that you always try to balance this out. But can you tell? Can you tell us why that change is important to the strategic direction of businesses all over the world. Well, let's start off with a data point is that the tenure of the average CMO for a Fortune 500 company continues to shrink. So I think it's just over three years now, three and a half years. And the reason that's happening is that in a world where you can measure everything, every data point can be measured, all your campaigns and tactical execution can be quantified. Then marketers, marketing leaders are being assessed on their ability to generate leads, MQLs, sales so hard KPIs and all the other things that they do in terms of brand building and positioning and messaging. They don't get credit for that, even though they might be really, really good at that. And they've created an amazing story. And so you combine that with the fact that a lot of companies are more interested in short term success versus long term instant gratification versus being patient. And so I don't think marketing leaders have the runaway that they used to have. So that's the reality being a marketing leader. And I think the second part of your question alludes to the idea that marketers have to be more marketing leaders need to be more holistic as opposed to being focused on. I have my little marketing empire and I'm going to take care of that and operate in a silo. Now there's a lot of, a lot of everything is meshed together. Marketing and sales for example, and, and customer success and product development are all meshed together. It's all really, really entangled because one area impacts another. Your ability to market something has to do with the fact that product has actually built something that people want. And the same goes for the, your ability to sell it. So it's gotten more complex, more complicated, more collaborative and, and so you just. So the role of the CMO is changing and, and the title changes because you know, it's, it's, I don't know whether titles matter anymore as opposed to having really smart people at the top who can call themselves the chief of something or the head of something. But yeah, it's a, it's a whole different world with different rules of engagement and, and it's tough to navigate. But the smart people will figure it out. Makes sense. I know Google and on here, but we'll come to the end of this. Thank you so much for, for sharing a great perspective. Great, great perspective. Again, I must say a couple of things just coming to mind now. Where can people learn more so that they can have, you know, this great experience and you know, get as much to be able to improve their marketing career. Two things. One, you can do a search for me on LinkedIn and just search for Mark Evans fractional CMO. I post content on a on a constant basis around a variety of topics. Then then obviously you can check out my website Mark MarketingSpark Co and the product that I'm really excited about these days is something called the 90 day marketing sprint. So essentially I'll do brand positioning, strategy and tactics and I'll make it happen in 90 days. So if you're a company that you feel stalled in your marketing, you feel uninspired, you're not getting anywhere, you're spinning your wheels, then my Marketing Sprint is designed to really get to jumpstart your marketing and get you headed on the right track. Makes sense. Makes sense guys. There are more this you know on my website. Just check dotslopsmarketing.com Great episode. Great guests. You also want to subscribe to the Marketing Leadership Podcast on Apple, Spotify and YouTube. I'd like to thank Deskrate, Content Allies and Listen Network on helping us for what is slowly becoming a great podcast. Till next time, connect the dots. Thank you for listening to the Marketing Leadership Podcast brought to you by Listen Network. There will be links to resources mentioned in today's show Notes if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a five star review and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.