Episode 85 - Why is company culture key to great CX? with Alistair Tudor - Head of Transformation and Client Delivery

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hello ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the CX podcast with my good self Richard Knight and um, him over there in the valley, Ryan Huxtable.

Speaker C: I am in the valley. You can see me. Anyway, look at the beautiful scenery behind me.

Speaker B: M. Yeah, but the weather's not like that now that it's wet. It's false. It's not real. He's AI. In fact, Ryan Huxtable is not real. AI is taking over.

Speaker A: Uh, is that what the IA in Huxtable is, but in the wrong order?

Speaker B: Nobody can be that good looking and real is what I'm trying to say. Stop it.

Speaker C: Right, let's move on.

Speaker B: You may well have heard, yeah, you may well have heard some dulcet tones there. If you are listening via the medium of audio only, you won't have seen we've got a special guest. Um, Mr. Huxtable, it's probably best that you introduce our uh, special guest.

Speaker C: Uh, again he needs no introduction. He is becoming a legend in his own right in the legal world of cx. I'm delighted to welcome back Alistair Chuda, uh, who is the head of CX and Transformation at um, the amazing firm Steven Scone. Um, for those of you who are listening, perhaps not in the UK or further north or in another country, um, I'll let Alistair introduce himself and the firm in a second. But Steven SC are a large uh one of the largest regional law firms in the uk um and uh, have been clients of ours now for about uh, 12 years. So we know steam's going really really well. Um, Alistair very kindly appeared um, on um, on our podcast a few episodes uh ago to talk about the great work uh, he and his team are doing around uh, bringing CX really to the forefront of everything the firm do. Um, and it's really becoming embedded in their, in their journey. Um and I suppose from a personal perspective, um, Steven Scene and Alastair, one of my clients and we've worked very very closely with them um, to uh, support that journey, um, uh, principally uh, kicking the tires on what, how do we create clear blue water between um, what the firm used to do, what it's doing now and how does CX become a real differentiator between Steven Scane and its competition? And it's worked because they've won lots of awards and Alistair uh, goes around talking about this stuff now. M He's so good at it. So I'm without further ado, Alistair, do you want to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more about what you do at the firm?

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, thank you very much and thanks for having me back on the podcast. I think as we said last time, there's so much more to unpick, um, and um, uncover and I do love talking about this stuff. My role encompasses kind of three main areas. One of them is client development which is um, you know, working with the legal teams to help them develop a broader client base. Um, the other parts are transformation so we do lots of kind of project work, um, uh, and improvements to the business. Um, so that kind of leads into my inquisitive and sort of driven side of getting stuff done. Uh, and then the final part is our client services function which incorporates our cx, um, uh listening parts as well. So all the receptions and all of our um, call handling functions. We have a centralized inquiries function which essentially triages for all of our uh, legal teams. Um, and we've built our own bespoke platforms to uh, facilitate that and to report on that. Um, so that we can make the most of all the wonderful rich data that we're getting from our clients when they phone up and tell us what their problems are. Um, and we use that really to improve our processes. Our uh, CX approach is very much about looking at what we do on behalf of our clients, um, and really trying to challenge ourselves to get better at offering a high quality service to our clients that delight them uh, as much as possible. I'd hesitate to say every time I think that's ah, that's a bit of a fool's errand if you're going after that. Um, uh, rather than a cx, um model that looks at producing nice quotes for the website, that's a marketing function. We're taking CX as a, as a process improvement and a behavior improvement piece.

Speaker C: It's really um, you said something really powerful there in terms of that point around. How do you use the data to use it to market how good you are or actually do you evoke change? And I think when you, one of the things that um, you talked about last time you were on was kind of that journey you'd been on to that point almost the. So what point? Um, what's been the key focus for you and the team, um, particularly since we last spoke but the last 12 months, what have you been working on to affect this culture that you're creating?

Speaker A: Um, so I think we started our client listening program last February. So previously we were asking clients at the beginning and end no matter how we were doing. Um, I think on the last podcast I used the analogy of Sitting down at a table and, or go for a meal and being shown to a table and the way to going, how was that? I don't really know yet. Um, and the same at the end where it's too late to affect any change. So our client listening program now uses um, ah, an invoice being raised as a trigger point, um, which is quite triggering for some people. M. You know, there's a lot of conversations about what we use as a trigger point, but for me it was really important that we asked the clients how we were doing when we were doing some work for them. And typically when we've done some work we raise an invoice. So that's been a bit of a game changer for us. Um, we sent out, I think probably in the last 12 months, seven and a half odd thousand, uh, surveys to clients. Um, and the feedback has been invaluable in its volume, its context, its sentiment, the analysis of that, um, in terms of driving the Net Promoter score, in terms of identifying processes that we can improve, areas we can develop, um, ways of dealing with clients that work better. And I think we'll dig into a little bit more of the kind of the strategic use of feedback as part of this conversation.

Speaker C: Rich, you're sat there looking curious.

Speaker B: No, I'm just listening in terms of um, that idea of in the moment and reacting to feedback rather than waiting is, is critical in, in, in any organization, uh, organization. I'm really interested to hear the, the amount of feedback you're asking for and the, the impact that that then has. So, so when the feedback comes in, how do you, how, how do you sift through that? What's, what's a, what's a process? Because I think with, with a lot of people listening, they're going, yeah, that's lovely. But how does it actually work? You know, is there dedicated time that you sit down and look at that? What, what, what triggers a bigger conversation? Are there, are there, are there, are there triggers where you go. Actually we need to have a wider meeting here to discuss what's going on. How does that work?

Speaker A: So, um, the portal that we use, the Insight 6 portal, um, we can set different uh, notification alerts. So as part of our feedback we ask three questions. One is a level, ah, of satisfaction, um, uh, from very dissatisfied to satisfied. And we can set a trigger that says if someone says they're very dissatisfied or dissatisfied, let us know immediately. Um, the same goes for the Net Promoter score, which is the, would you recommend us? So anything under, uh, I think, uh, an eight. Uh, sorry. Seven. We would get a notification to say somebody's ambivalent or neutral on this. That's the trigger to then go and have a look at that specific piece of feedback. But we do have dedicated time to actually go through the feedback that is received. Um, um, it's important that we do that because it allows us to. Sometimes people say I'm satisfied, but actually there's. They've got something in the commentary that is invaluable. So, um, we got some process improvements that we've, we've given where someone says, yeah, I'm really happy with what you're doing so far, but it'd be really good if. And, and, and I think if you, if you think that client experience is important, you make the time to do that and action it. So where we've got feedback, um, that we deem as an opportunity to put something right, we get notified immediately. We've got seat feedback to celebrate. Um, that's something that we come to regularly and we make sure that we're updating all the different, um, platforms that we've got to communicate to our staff, uh, with the good feedback so they get motivated and it's recognized. Um, and also, um, we make sure that, uh, the, the feedback goes to our team leaders as well. Um, and that is to celebrate as well as to go around and pick up with the legal advisor on any kind of feedback that they've received that maybe has been an opportunity to put it right. Um, and again, that's something that we can kind of expound on a little bit about how we approach that giving feedback. Um, because for me it's really important that the ownership is at the right point. Um, is it a management piece or is it an ownership piece? And I think that's when you start delving into the challenges and the cultural ele elements of it and the strategic approach to this. Um, you've got to be very clear on what it is you are doing and what it is you're not doing. Um, to give people the reassurance.

Speaker C: It's, it's. I'm really pleased you've touched on that because certainly one of the challenges I see when, um, I'm talking to clients about feeding or passing the feedback back out to the team and engaging them in that. It's always the, the, I'll use the word loosely, easy bit to give them the positive feedback. Uh, I think the challenge often comes when you're trying to deliver back that difficult feedback. And we used the term we were chatting about this, Alice, before we started talking on the podcast about this psychological safety, bit of how people feel about receiving that feedback. So what have been your challenges as a team in terms of getting that message out to start to make it acceptable culturally to review the data and the feedback?

Speaker A: Mhm. So when, when you start talking to lawyers or legal teams about going out to all of their clients independently and asking for feedback, there's. There's a few things that pop up, a few challenges. Some of them are quite, well, well worn. Um, there's what I would call fofo, which is fear of finding out, um, you know, they think they're doing a good job. What happens if they find out they're not necessarily doing a good job? Um, they think their client will tell them if they're not happy, um, they won't guess what? Um, and we see that time and time again. Um, clients don't want to be spammed. They don't want to get loads and loads of emails from you. It's not relevant. Um, we only send out up to three surveys a year. Um, no more. We could raise hundreds of invoices for you. You only ever get three. And actually that's proven in our unsubscribe rate, which is at half a percent over the whole year of client listening. So it's very, very low. Um, and also that clarity about how feedback is going to get used. Um, people automatically assume that I think there's something in the psychological nature of human beings, let alone what we do. Um, but somebody's going to always be giving negative feedback. Um, that's a phrase that we don't use as well. We don't ever use negative feedback. We call about, we talk about opportunities. Um, so the opportunity of being able to put things right is really, really powerful. So, you know, Ryan, we touched on that kind of psychological safety. So making sure that people feel safe, that the feedback is going to be used for good, not for bad, um, is going to help them rather than hinder them, or is going to, you know, build them up rather than necessarily damage them is really, really important. We spent a lot of time talking, um, and engaging with the business about that, um, which was really, really rewarding and really valuable to do to make sure that when we actually launched it, um, we were in a good place.

Speaker C: How do you make that a positive experience for the, I mean, it sounds very joined up in terms of what you're talking about, but how do you make that a positive experience? Or have you made that a positive experience? Um, for Teams where perhaps you've seen quite a bit of resistance.

Speaker A: M. Um, we've made sure that everybody's in, um, so it's not just for the lawyers, it's just not for the partners, it's not just for the legal teams, it's actually everybody. So we have done, um, external client listening. We go to the people that pay our invoices, but we also go internally, we ask our lawyers what they think of our HR function, our IT function, our transformation function, the client service function. So everybody's got the opportunity, they're not feeling like they're being singled out and everyone can see the positive impact that actually getting good quality, constructive feedback can give. So that really helps. Um, I mentioned that opportunity feedback. So we've reframed it. It's not negative feedback, it's opportunity feedback. And initially people were kind of, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, called it opportunity feedback. I know why you've done that. But actually if you keep on having that conversation about, look, this is an opportunity. They've given us an opportunity to identify something that we've not done right, identify something that we've missed, identify something that we could be doing better. It is an opportunity to put things right. So reframing that has been really, really powerful. Um, we also look at the, as I said, that kind of ownership of feedback. So if we do get opportunity feedback, we go straight to the legal advisor, excuse me, straight to the legal advisor to give them that feedback. Ultimately, they're the ones dealing with the client and they're the ones that should be given the opportunity to put it right. And that means the ownership is with the individual to put it right, rather than it becoming a management issue. As soon as you escalate it to a manager, it becomes a different beast altogether. We do obviously share the feedback with managers, but they get a summary of the feedback over the last two weeks. We give them a bi weekly update that gives them the opportunity to talk about feedback in team meetings with their team to celebrate the good stuff, but also to go to an individual and say, oh, I see you had this bit of feedback. What happened with that? And then the legal advisor hopefully has already dealt with it and come to, uh, um, uh, an appropriate solution with the client and can give good positive feedback on the outcome of that. Um, and then finally, we've taken a lot of time to recognize the really good feedback that we get and our net promoter score is very strong. Um, but we recognise good feedback, we feed that back to people as well. If it's exceptional, if it's pulling things out. We will raise it to team leaders. We'll make sure that the right people know. Um, but we celebrate it on big screens around our offices. We celebrate it on. If you're watching on YouTube, these posters behind me, these are Skona stars. These are people Scone as a staff by the way, for us, Stephen Scones. These um, are people in the kind of the quotes that celebrate the great work they do. Um, they go on as banners on the Internet. They go on the big TV screens. Um, we recognize really good feedback with things like CX badges, um, which we launched um, a few months ago, beginning of this year. And they've gone down really well as well. And there's different layers and tiers of that as well. And that's really aimed at kind of keeping the conversation going and recognizing the really good work that we're doing.

Speaker C: I think it's rich look so excited with the project.

Speaker B: Oh, I love it, I love it, I love it. It's this whole employee experience piece. CX and Ex go together and this is one of the key things that I talk to a lot of people about. It's a no brainer really. The issue that a lot of organizations have is not having the time or the resource to be able to do that. So it takes investment. Doesn't listening to you talk there, Esther, about bi weekly feedback and going directly to this takes time. However, what I'm hearing is as well this leads to behavior change. Is that right?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Massive and buy in. And there's a much better understanding of um, the value that a good client experience can bring to the firm. Um, the firm has expanded. Um, I've been with them coming up four years but I think over the last five years we've grown another 50% on top of what we were doing in terms of turnover. Now I can't take all the credit for that. Um, in terms of, in terms of.

Speaker B: You can on this podcast. It's all done.

Speaker A: Okay. If no one's listening then yeah, okay. It was all me. No, genuinely, there's a lot of hard work that goes in, um, from everybody to, to achieve that sort of result. Um, but, but fundamentally, um, the cultural element of it, people have an understanding now of the value that good client experience brings. Um, 80% of our work is repeat business. People come back to us time and time again. Of the 20% that is new, we reckon pretty much 100% of that comes through a recommendation of some sort. Okay. Um, when you think about a recommendation you are representing, um, not just yourself, but also the reputation of the referrer when you deal with that client. So for a referral to come and use us is, is an absolute endorsement that they feel that we're going to look after the client in the most appropriate way. Um, and uh, so, so that's where the investment of time and effort and to a certain extent money comes in with client experience and talking about it and making sure that it's a constant conversation within the business because culturally if you get it right, it'll have a huge impact on your bottom line.

Speaker C: The other thing I'm curious about, and I know you shared some of this stuff with me, but for the benefit ah, of our listeners and watchers, um, how are you using feedback strategically with teams when you pick up those trends and see how their teams are doing from both uh, a quantitative and qualitative perspective in terms of what comes through?

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, the great thing is that lawyers are competitive people, um, if you've ever dealt with them, you know that. Um, so um, sometimes we put stats up about who's doing really well and certainly when we do our mystery shopping, Ryan, you know, there's a, it's a clamor to see who's got the highest score in the, in the business, which is always good fun. Um, we use it for reward and recognition. So it's not just about putting things on banners and on, on posters. We also use it at appraisal time. So um, you know, we can review what's happened. We can potentially look uh, at um, setting an objective of uh, you know, setting a KPI around a net promoter score for an individual because we can record and report at that level. So that's quite easy to do. Um, we use it for promotion criteria as well. So when we are looking at who do we promote within the business and we want to look at behaviors, the way they treat their client is part of that. So at a strategic level, it makes sure that we are employing and promoting the right people within the organization who display the right behaviors. Um, we even factor it into profit share for partners. So that drives some engagement, I promise you. Um, uh, we're about to relaunch our website and redesign that uh, in the coming 12 months. That's an ongoing project but we're going to be using the feedback that we get and the words that our client use. Clients use when they tell us we're doing a good job will be using that, those words in the website because if a client for the family team values, yes. Responsive, um, yes. Community. But Also, um, calls me at key points to make me feel comfortable. How do we build that into the website? That's very different from what know you might get from a data protection or an intellectual property side or a corporate transaction. Um, and we pick up sentiment and we use AI to analyze the sentiment in the feedback so that we can create different kind of Personas and different drivers by team to get them thinking about what is it our clients actually look for. And a lot of them will be able to probably write down on a piece of paper most of the stuff that we're talking about. But to see it direct from the client is so much more powerful than just making assumption that we know. So that's really helpful. Um, process change. We've had bits of feedback that mean that we've literally changed our process for certain things, um, to make the clients feel more comfortable or better informed, um, or to improve the value of what we're doing. Um, so there's a couple of examples, um, that I've got here. One would be around new matters with the family team as part of the initial conversation. Um, we then send a raft of information afterwards. And as part of that there was a sort of a Gantt chart, if you like, of, of a timeline of a divorce. Um, and somebody said, you know, the first meeting was great. Felt really, you know, like you could help me, which is fantastic and I'll be instructing you moving forward. Um, but after the meeting you sent me this Gantt chart and it would have been really good to have had that before the meeting so that I could kind of plot as we're going through it because this is my first divorce. And that's the other thing we forget sometimes, you know, we're dealing with people who, their first time dealing with a legal firm on this sort of stuff. We do it all day, every day. So how do we build that confidence, um, in the, in the client, that we're going to support them all the way through it and that we, we respect them and we're going to take the time to do that. So that's really powerful. Um, the other one was a, um, a client that said, look, your, your advice is absolutely bang on, but maybe just could you summarize it at the end of the email? It's quite a long email and I've got to get my head around it. And actually if you just summarized at the bottom, you could do A, B or C. But we would recommend, or this would, these would be the implications of it. Um, just kind of crystallizes that thought process. So we started doing that, you know, for a lot of clients as well. Um, and then the kind of the other strategic use that we've got of it is to keep everybody on the same page. So we just produced our first annual CX report. Um, we have an internal version of that that goes to staff that talks about, um, you know, the feedback that we're getting, the value of it, where it's change process, um, how we're doing against the competition. Um, but then we also have an external version that we use to put out there because again, that's read by not just clients and prospective clients, but also by referrers. So building that confidence in our service and the way that we look after our clients is really important.

Speaker B: Sorry, I just got to get my head around this. It's the first time I've ever heard this. You, you telling me you've got insight and data and you're sharing it with people outside of your organization and informing them what you've been doing, how you've changed things, what it's meant to you, how it's going to impact their ongoing experience with your organization? Is that right? Is that what. Is that what I'm hearing?

Speaker A: Sounds fairly logical, doesn't it?

Speaker B: It does, doesn't it? Wow. Oh, uh, there we go.

Speaker A: Who knew?

Speaker B: I am, as per usual, everybody knows if you listen to this, I'm very, very flippant. However, it's a very, um. You know that a lot of the time that data that's collected is put in a drawer, is looked at and gone.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, I didn't like those customers anyway. I put them in the drawer and yeah, we'll wait until next year and then we'll ask again and see if it's any more favorable. And as we know, that doesn't work. It just annoys customers, potential customers, past customers, just annoys people. Um, but if you do something, tell people what you've done and then tell them how you've changed things and what that's meant. So I think, I think it's a significant change in just gathering data. I think it really does make a difference.

Speaker C: I think the other point I'd, make, I've, uh, seen the report and is excellent. Um, is when we work with clients, one of the things we talk to them about all the time is closed feedback loops. When you ask people for feedback and you thank them for giving it to you, but you never then tell them what you're going to do, uh, as a result of it, and what the report does brilliantly is tells your clients, Alistair, and all those other people around you what you're doing with the sentiment and the feedback. And it is, it's probably one of the best examples I've probably seen of any professional service, any business actually. Uh, closing that loop and being really clear around um, the way you're using that data. Which, which brings me probably onto one of my final questions. Um, so it's clear Alistair, you as a business, um, and as a function, you, you've really taken um, the CX agenda. Ah, and you're building it into every aspect of life at the firm. Um, which is, which is, which is pretty special in terms of your future strategic goals. You know, where, where do you see this going next?

Speaker A: So obviously we want to continue to kind of build on that feedback loop because as you say, if clients don't hear anything back, having taken the time to give you feedback, they soon clam up, go, what's not worth doing? So we need to make sure that we're communicating back to those clients and um, making sure that we're securing our future feedback, if you like. Um, and we want to continue to kind of build out the value that we see in the feedback. So part of that will be our own internal listening piece. Um, what do our legal teams tell us about the service that we've got? We'll be expanding that, I'm sure. Um, to, to make sure that we're as a business services function that supports the legal teams, um, delivering better service, um, higher value service. Uh, and, and um, scratching those itches that the teams have got that go. Well, that's a slight irritant. Okay, well let's fix it then. Um, so we'll be doing a lot of work about the internal side for us. Um, I have no doubt that we'll be, um, looking at some interesting external, um, ways of generating feedback and speaking to our valued clients as well. Um, but also our internal process as well. Not so much about what we're hearing from our lawyers, but more. I was having a conversation with one of our credit controllers the other day, um, and it struck me that actually the client experience isn't just about when we're doing work for you. It's, it's birth to death in terms of your journey with us. What does it feel like paying an invoice for Steven Skoing? You know, is the invoice fit for purpose? Is it easy to use? Is it, can we pay by Apple pay? Is there a link on it that I can just click on and Pay. Is there a QR code? If I get it as a paper copy that I can just click on and it, and it, and it goes, um, is it obvious what the invoice number is? So if somebody is following me up on it, I can find it quickly. And that's just from kind of a five minute look at an invoice. So you've got all these kind of extra things that spin off from that. So I'll be working with our finance uh, team and credit control to talk about both the internal client experience and the external client experience of dealing with Steven Scone there. Um, we're even starting to look at things like um, ah, you know, recruitment. If you think about our clients, what about candidates? Could we treat them as clients? What's the experience like of coming to Steven Scone and, and applying for a job? Um, you know hiring good lawyers is a very, very competitive market at the moment. There's lots of competition for them. So how do we ace that part of it? Because we could leave it to chance. We could just kind of stumble through it and hope that they like us. Or do we curate it? Do we make sure that it's the best it can possibly be? So that in inverted commas, client experience, you use another C which is candidate but that client experience is the best it can possibly be for another internal function. So there's loads going on and we'll pick up, you know, all sorts of things. We, we did a piece around our uh, um, our onboarding previously. We're using four onboarding systems. We've now got one onboarding system and it's way better than the others. It's branded Steven Scone. You don't have to download everything, everything is online and it makes a massive impact. The length of time it takes to get our clients onboarded and the complexity of that. So we're still kind of driving through and this is where I think my transformation helps as well. If I see something that I think needs changing, I can influence or, or be part of that transition into a new system that, that really helps massively.

Speaker C: One of the things you said, um, there that jogs them in my memory. When you're talking about recruitment, um, you, you talk to, to any um, CX expert, they'll tell you the best way to create a brilliant uh, sex experience is to recruit the best people that understand what good client experience is. So it's great that you're making those links to actually I need the best people to be able to deliver this. The other point that I really liked and something in terms you said, you know, you talked about those internal customers, but, and the credit controller story. Um, I was talking to a client last week and we were talking, we were going through their client journey touch points. Um, and there was a bit of pushback in the team around. Well, you know, I don't deal face to face with clients. You know, I do the invoicing and it wasn't until we opened up the conversation with them and said, yeah, but if you send the invoice to the client and the invoice is wrong because you've made a mistake or you haven't understood all the conversations that have gone behind that billing process, you are part of that client journey because you've sent the invoice and you could see the light bulb going on around. Oh yeah, what, what, what I do really does impact clients. Um, and in your instance, in your example, Alistair will directly, you know, if you, if you're sending out feedback requests when the invoice lands, if that invoice isn't right, that will directly affect the, the response you get on it.

Speaker A: Yeah, and, and look, you know, we're, we're fortunate we've got a good, good payment system where the invoices are normally right. But I saw a stat and I don't think it, particularly around the legal profession, um, I think it was off the top of my head. I think it was either 31 or 34% of invoices that are delayed in paying is down to a dispute on service. It's a dissatisfaction with a service rather than this invoice isn't right. It's a, you mess me around, I'm going to delay payment. Or, uh, you know, I want to pick this up with somebody. It's a way of, um, displaying dissatisfaction. That might be a very English thing. Um, but, uh, you know, it's a, it's a tool, it's a lever that people use to display dissatisfaction. So if we can increase the level of satisfaction all the way throughout our client journey, people are much more inclined to pay the invoice faster. They think, yes, I've had a good service, no problem, I'll get that paid. Um, it reduces our debtor days, increases cash flow. You know, there's all these wonderful benefits to actually looking after your clients. Who knew, eh?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes. So I, and I think that's, um, that's quite an interesting one in terms of, uh, those paying of those invoices. I think it is a British thing, isn't it, when something doesn't go well, you don't really want to. You'll string it out for as long as you can. When's the due date? Oh, I won't pay that. I might give a couple of days, see if I can push it just to annoy them because they didn't do a good job for me. Exactly your point. So it's, and, and it's around making a small things, uh, adding uh, from, from good to great as they, as they say, you know, sounds like your organization were doing great things. But what are the small, those marginal gains that you can make that, that, that add on and add on and add on and add on, ultimately enabling your organization to function at a higher, higher performance levels, deliver great experiences and make some goodness, you know, from a legal point of view, make some money.

Speaker A: That'd be great, wouldn't it?

Speaker B: Because then you can continue to survive as an organization and you know, give great, great service. And again and again we shouldn't be,

Speaker A: we shouldn't be shy about that. Uh, you know, we're here to provide a service but the, the quality of the service and the way that you're treated when we, it can, can make or break that relationship. So it's really important that we invest in it. And, and we're very fortunate that we've been given the, the time and the resource to, to be able to do this. But it doesn't have to start with, you know, hundreds of people. Um, you know the, the client experience function is, is me. I've got a couple of people that help on the admin and the communication back of feedback and they, they liaise with the legal teams around delivering the opportunity feedback and sharing the really good stuff and with the marketing team. But we're not huge, you know, we all wear multiple hats. There's no one person here that's responsible solely for client experience. But what we do have is a group of people that are all pulling in the same direction to achieve what we want across, across the whole firm.

Speaker C: Alistair, you've been incredibly um, giving with your advice today on the podcast and we're both very, very grateful for that. One final question from, from us. What one tip would you give someone listening to this who uh, maybe knows they need to do something to face into maybe some of the opportunities that the client listening might give them? What one tip would you give them to go away with? To start thinking about.

Speaker A: Having, having some, having data, having information is really helpful. I think I might have mentioned that on the last podcast, but that's really Helpful. Don't ever try and win a, an argument or a matter of opinion with a lawyer. It's a waste of time. Um, but the same goes for every business. Um, as soon as you start arguing a matter of opinion, you're wasting time and money. So base it on something solid. Um, base it on a small test group. You know, you could start that way. Um, but you've also got to take the time to engage, to go to the people that are most reluctant and unpack, um, and um, unpick um, their concerns and their worries and then make sure you're taking those worries away. Thinking about, okay, how do we overcome that? And putting in practical steps that mean that people don't feel like it's a negative thing. You know, we spent a lot of time, I floated the concept of the client listening strategy at a partners meeting probably, um, late in 2024. Um, and I think I had a ten minute slot at the partner meeting. I did my seven minutes with time for Q and A and I walked off 45 minutes. Um, because there were so many questions and so many, well, how is that going to work and what happens if, and what do we do if. But because we'd uncovered a lot of those concerns already by having high quality conversations with people, I was able to say, well, we're going to do this and we're not going to do that and this is how it won't be used and this is how it will be used. And actually at the end of it there was only one question that I couldn't answer and I said that's brilliant, thank you very much. That's exactly the reason I'm here. I will come and talk to you afterwards. And that was around who we could opt out of the surveys. Um, initially I'd said it was just um, children for our family team, um, when we're dealing with children matters. But actually there's vulnerable adults that some of our teams deal with as well. So we needed to opt those out. And that was the one thing out of all the questions that we hadn't thought of. There's still value in that room. Um, so yeah, go and engage with your internal stakeholders, the people who you're going to have to do this through, get them on board, listen to their concerns and then consider and come back. Take that time. It's really worth it.

Speaker C: Brilliant. Alistair, thank you so much for your time. It's uh, you know, your, the, the way in which you have created something so special, um, a very special law firm is, uh, is incredible. And it's really, really great to hear. We will have you back again for sure, because you've got loads more stuff to share. Um, and I think, you know, a lot of what you've shared today isn't just about professional services. Very transferable across, you know, many, many different industries. So a huge thank you from us, and I will. I'll let Mr. Knight close us down.

Speaker B: Yes. Thank you very much, Alistair. Uh, much appreciated. Uh, thank you very much for listening, everybody. Don't forget to, uh, share, comment and like, around our, uh, podcasts. I've been Richard Knight.

Speaker C: And I've been Ryan Huxtable. We'll see you next time.

Speaker B: Thanks very much. Goodbye.