S1Ep291 Customer Experience Growth Laws with Jim Tincher

Speaker A: You know, everybody talks about growth, they talk about the customer experience. But in this episode, we're going to bridge the connection between the customer experience and really scaling your business and the growth laws with Jim Tincher.

Speaker B: Welcome to Fordify Live with your host, Ford Sakes.

Speaker A: In today's episode, we're sitting down with Jim Tincher and he's going to share some insights about how to really scale and grow and the connection between the customer experience and what real growth looks like. Hey Jim, thanks for taking the time to join me on Fortify Live.

Speaker C: Hey, thanks for having me. I appreciate being here.

Speaker A: Well, just for the record, we are live right now on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube and Instagram, a few other places and not Instagram. Excuse me. But we do post up there. And then, um, the audio from this episode becomes the business Growth show podcast. Now I've known Jim for a long time. We've worked together. Um, he's a nationally recognized researcher on customer experience, um, best selling author and obviously a keynote speaker. And so I asked him to join us on the show because he was sharing some research with me, uh, and the insights and the connection between customer experience and growth. And he has these growth laws. So these are unscripted. He can talk about whatever he wants. Um, so Jim, where, where's this connection between customer experience which everybody was talking about and now these growth laws?

Speaker C: Well, we went back to the research. We looked at 10,000 surveys of, uh, B2B customers to see what led to growth. And it was what most people think, if you satisfy your customers, they'll grow with you. Now, bad news, they won't, uh, they may not, uh, shrink, but they're not going to grow with you. And we also looked at 833B2B interviews to really understand what leads to growing share of wallet. And yes, it's customer experience, but no, it's not customer experience. And uh, what I mean by that is done right then yes, customer experience is absolutely a way to get there. But, but following the typical way of doing it, let's do a survey out there about net promoter score. None of that matters. What matters is your customers feel like you value them. And typical measurements, typical approach to customer experience, which is just make sure they're not unhappy, doesn't drive growth. That's one of the six growth clause growth laws that reliability will keep an account. But feeling valued is what grows it. We looked at those 10,000 surveys, we looked at what drives growth. And if customers felt that they felt valued by you beyond expectations, there's a five Times more, uh, likely that they would grow. And uh, that's what most people miss. It's not about getting the small things right. It's do your customer feel like you appreciate them, that you value them. That's what unlocks growth.

Speaker A: Well, I mean it sounds like common sense to me, but we all know that common sense is, isn't common practice. What do you feel like is the biggest misconception that companies have around that customer loyalty?

Speaker C: Well, it's that really you send customer experience out somewhere, have them do a Net Promoter Score survey. I've talked to so many organizations to say we do Net Promoter Score and that's not what matters. It's really critical here. And what they get wrong is thinking, for example, that just sending your sales rep out to talk to customers is enough. One of the concepts we found is that multi level engagement is absolutely critical to helping those customers feel valued. Yes, it's strong relationships, but it's also multiple levels. It's keeping the same sales rep for years, which is hard, and then adding that extra value, bringing your thought leadership. You know, a few weeks ago I was out in Phoenix. Yep, no better place to be in summer than Phoenix.

Speaker A: Yeah, really hot.

Speaker C: Talking to the city. And um, my client has had a good account with this. It's, it's big, big account, but it hasn't grown. When I talked to the customer about it, it was interesting because they were very interested in innovation and growth and they talked to everybody. They talked to other cities, they talked to consultants, they talk to everybody except my client because the client positioned themselves as basically just providing some of the mechanics. Nobody knows more about this utility than my client, but they're not bringing that thought leadership there. And so really four elements that help you create a customer who feels valued are to have a strong relationship. That's a no brainer. But it's important to have multiple levels of engagement, to have limited turnover, have a solid organization so they're not having to keep retraining reps and most importantly bring those value added services.

Speaker A: That makes so much sense. I know. You know, for our listeners we've got listeners that are franchisees, franchisors, private equity group. A lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of people are interested in business because that's what we always talk about. And I wanted to cover just for the listeners that might not know Net Promoter Score. So you, you all know this. Whether you know it's what it's called, NPS or Net Promoter Score is those questions you get where it says on a scale of 0 to 10, how likely is it that you'd recommend this to a friend or colleague? And then that score gets tabulated and it gets rated. And so 1 to 6 are pretty much detractors. 7 and 8 are kind of neutral. They'll recommend you if, if it comes up. But you're really looking for those nines and tens, those advocates. And that's been a standard, uh, for a long time. Net promoter score a lot talk about. A lot of people claim they invented it, but what's really important is that they were trying to come up with a way to survey their question their customers and get one answer. Because obviously the more questions you ask, the better the data is. But at the same time, data can get skewed. Only types of customers that leave bad reviews. You know, there's all kinds of ways to play the system and to try to understand it. But in today's day and age, with the digital footprint changing with it, harder to attract a new customer. I know in all my keynotes I'm talking about how be found, right? Because you used to be found in Google. And the cost to acquire a lead has skyrocketed. So that's making the growth laws that you're sharing and how to really leverage the customer experience and not just as a, a, uh, sign on the wall, but as something really impactful. So Jim, tell me more about the laws and what, what's another law?

Speaker C: Well, you're actually talking about really Law 3 as well, which is that your survey scores, if you do surveys, can see growth coming or leaving that. And um, I specialize in B2B manufacturing software companies. That's really, my life is B2B and it's different from B2C. They're just different. Not better, not worse. They're different. And what's funny is that in the finance world, let's say you've got a manufacturing viewer here on the call and you hire somebody from retail to be in your finance department. It's a good decision. That's fine. You wouldn't expect them to use the same way to measure your finances in manufacturing as would in retail. Yet somehow when it comes to measuring customers, we think it all works the same. It doesn't. You know, if you're Subway, here's an example. It's going to be pretty hard to have all your thousands and millions of customers feel valued. That's different. But if you're a supplier to Subway, you certainly want your reps at Subway to feel valued. It's a different approach and it's really critical because. And this comes back to what I think is most important law number two in business to business. Your customers are not just buying your product, they are staking their career on you. You're coming back. If I buy a phone, as a consumer, if I buy the wrong phone, I'll be a little bit annoyed. No big deal. If I choose the wrong supplier, I could be fired because I made a bad choice and it really impacted the business. That's why B2B uh, is so different is the stakes are so much higher.

Speaker A: All right, so what should a business owner do? I know you're sharing the laws. You know everybody wants to grow. I mean when I say that as a wide brush, obviously some businesses are mature and they're looking at succession. But. But if you're not growing, you're dying. I think it was Ray Kroc said that. And so think about growth and you want to take care of the customer, it costs you, uh, whatever the stats are. I usually say 10 times more to get a new customer than an existing customer. I'm sure there's statistics on that. And I want to understand for the listeners what are three or four steps that they could do this week to help identify and then implement.

Speaker C: Sure. Uh, first thing I would do is determine who are your most important customers because not every customer is equal. I know that sounds a little odd coming from a customer experience guy, but they aren't. Who are your most important customers? Those that you can unlock future growth in. Because you're right Ford, it is about 10 times more to acquire a new customer. And the fastest way to grow is growing your existing accounts. So that's the first thing is identify who are your most important opportunities. Second then is don't just leave it to your sales rep. I'm sure you have fabulous sales rep. They're terrific. Your customer doesn't want to only talk with your sales rep. They want to Talk with your VPs. They want to talk to your product people. If it's a valuable customer, take your leadership team. Not everybody, but take members leadership team, get them out to talk to your customers. Number three is what's your customers value in the B2B world? Something I found across all 833 interviews. Your customers want to know most what your other customers are doing for ah, I talk to you, I'm a customer Ford. I talked about what are your other accounts doing? How are they doing a digital transformation? How are they using AI Uh. Now Ford knows a lot about that but he's also able to Bring in what his other clients do. That is what your clients want to know is what are your other clients do? What are the best practices? Now, you can't share proprietary information, but you can share a ton. And that's what your customers want to know. And for an extra little bonus, put in a packageable way. Because you can't rely on your head of product going out to all of your top clients. So find a way to package up so that your sales reps, your account managers can also share that your organization knows a ton that your customers want to learn. Don't keep it back, share it with them.

Speaker A: Well, I tell you what, I've had a lot of guests on my show. I have CEOs of franchise brands and CMOs and then other experts like you. And I love it when a guest comes on and no BS approach, just gets right to it and says, here's. Here's what you need to do. And I really think, you know, some people try to make it too complicated and they get seduced by the newest thing and the bells and whistles. And at the end of the day, it's people to people, right? People ask me, is it B2B or B2C? It's P2P. Right? It's people to people. And in. In. In B2B for working in business owners, uh, with. With other businesses that have other customers, it's essential. What they do is that they follow your growth laws because then they can avoid the, the loss. I mean, I, I've heard a lot of brands where they're. They're saying to me, we already know where our customers come from. We know everything. And I'll be like, well, you know, tell me more. And they'll say, well, we're really profitable. And I'm like, profit hides a lot of mistakes. Oh, yeah. I think that the more profitable they are, the more lenient they get or, um, resistance to really looking at fine tooth, to what's really working. Um, I recently did a presentation for a group of, uh, bankers, community bankers. And, um, I was talking about accelerating growth not from what you do, but from, you know, my end and generating leads and increasing core deposits and increasing loan demand for financials, uh, for banks. And I asked for a volunteer to come up on stage. And, uh, I said, so why do people bank with you? And they said, well, it's customer service. We're all about customer service. I said, you're all about customer services? Yes, we're all. We're customer service. And I said, great. I, I don't know where my phone is. I'm looking around right now. I have to go, uh, use my Apple Watch and find it. It's right here. Hang on one second. We are live, everybody. This is a live show, okay? So I got my phone. So I'm on stage with the guy, and I said, uh, what's your phone number? He said, what are you talking about? I said, I want to call your. I want to call your bank. And so I dialed his bank, and I got put on hold. I told him I wanted to set up a new account, and it got transferred, and they never asked me my name. And it was the worst customer experience ever. And the guy was really upset with me, uh, from stage, I'd say something else. He was pissed off. And so I said. I said, look, wouldn't you rather know that this is happening because leadership was disconnected from the people that were actually doing the connection with the people. And so, uh, their company said customer experience, but they didn't actually deliver it. Now, fast forward, you know, past that, he's become a client. They're very happy. I even went on a fishing trip with him. So he's. He's close friend now, but he was not very happy. But I think that's what you have to do, is you need people around that can call you on your stuff. And if you haven't done mystery shopping to identify, you know, what is really going on. I know that's one thing that you do. And. And if you join this episode late, we're talking to Jim Tincher. He's the CEO and founder of Heart of the Customer, heartofthecustomer. Com. Check him out if you. If you're looking for, uh, a keynote speaker on customer experience, highly recommend him. He's, uh, someone that, that I. I like, know and trust, and I know that he'll do a great job for your group. So back to you now, Jim. So you got these people. They're excited. They're. They're implementing, they're identifying where they need to grow. What else can they do? What else should they put in their arsenal to make sure they're taking care of those customers? Now, I want to go back. I'm actually going to skip again.

Speaker C: These aren't scripted.

Speaker A: You mentioned one of the ways to keep the customer was to keep your staff. I think that's important. You also mentioned that it's important to meet leadership, and I don't. I'm gonna jump in here with a thought. One of the reasons I like that idea of meeting the leadership Is because if there is turnover, then the customer doesn't feel disconnected. And I think that the biggest problem I've seen with, with, you know, there's increased competition, there's attrition in companies, there's high turnover. Now there, there' generations in the marketplace, the, the workforce is disrupted, we've got technology disruption with AI. I, um, mean there's a lot of stuff going on right now. Um, but is that what you meant by keeping your stat by getting them to meet other people in the company and then reducing the turnover?

Speaker C: Exactly. So several elements of that. First of all is for many B2B relationships, the reference, the relationship is with the sales rep, not with the company.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: When your sales rep leaves and goes to competitor, where does that loyalty go? Might not stick with you, but if they have a broader relationship across multiple people, you have a better chance of holding on. If your VP of product calls out and says, hey, I know Brian, the sales rep left, but we really love your business and uh, we'll have a new rep for you. Well, that pre existing relationship protects you. And so that's what's so critical. Also, everybody thinks they know what customers value. Even organization people have never met a customer. In most B2B organizations, 90% of employees have never met a customer. And yet they're making decisions that matter. And so that's why it's critical to get your leadership out to talk to customers. They learn about what customers value. It's different. And if you really, really want your leadership to become customer centric, you want that extra bonus that we're going to stand out from the rest, it's not what you're thinking. The number one way I found to do that is actually assign accounts to your leadership team. Now you'll still have a sales rep there, but if your CFO is responsible for three customers and their growth, she's going to look at the customer experience a little bit differently and think differently about her job because she's on the hook for these three accounts. Now your sales reps going to hate that for the three accounts because now they've got a leader looking over their shoulders. But that's okay. But you're going to change how your CFO looks at your business. Whether it's coo, any of those leaders who don't often talk to customers, assign them two to three accounts. That will change your culture almost overnight.

Speaker A: That's an amazing idea. I think that's everyone could use that. Now you also have a new book coming out. Tell me about this new book.

Speaker C: Well, it's based on the six growth laws and um, first versions coming out specifically for manufacturing. Manufacturing and customer experience. Those two don't often overlap, but they should. Uh, we found that when we did those 10,000 surveys, it was all manufacturing customers. And one of the amazing findings, something that I did not expect to find from that research is we actually found that procurement people have emotions. I've never expected find procurement people actually had emotions. They do, they do feel happiness, they feel trust and confidence. So that was a fighting by itself. But their emotions don't matter as much now that does somewhat like when we worked with Dao, they found that when procurement felt confident, they started to centralize more purchasing towards Dao. But when we look at feeling valued, it's less about procurement, it's more about the executives at your client. That's what mattered when they felt valued again, unlocked growth, five times as much likelihood to grow. And so that's the key there is. So I'm bringing in that research and the growth laws into a little book, short book, like 50 pages just to give you an overview of uh, why customer experience matters matters. In B2B. Again the first version will be manufacturing. They'll come up with the B2B general one.

Speaker A: Awesome. Now I'm going to go to a different subject and again everybody listening and viewing. This is no these not scripted. So I want to go to another conversation. So right now, you know, obviously I'm doing a lot of presentations and keynotes on AI and everybody with a laptop is an AI expert. Right now every, every email I get is another AI summit and I've got my a summit coming up in August in uh, in Las Vegas here, August 14th and 15th. But what makes me different is I don't get seduced by technology. I look at AI through is this going to help me expand my influence? Is this going to help me get build my list? Is it going to help me get leads? Is it going to help me get new and repeat sales? Is it going to help me improve the customer experience and is it going to help me improve business operations if it's not going to move one of those needles, one of those key performance indicators of get building awareness, getting leads, getting sales and building operations, then I don't really care. And a lot of people are giving book reports and by the time they're, they're details come out, the new tools come out and it's changed. Right now everything's talking about prompt injection and, and that if you use agentic AI, um, it means that they can actually get into your computer adversely, which most people don't realize. And they're connecting Claude co work to all these things. Now you're wondering what the hell is it? Where's the question in this whole thing?

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker A: So here's the question. So here's the question. It's uh, what we call a long road to a tiny house. Here's the question. With AI I am experiencing two sides. I'm getting really sophisticated online appointment setting. With AI I'm getting really good customer experience. I called, um, one of the most. I m live in Vegas now and one of my favorite places to eat is called Nevada Chicken. And I called and they take their order over the phone and it's all AI and it is accurate and it is good. And I can ask for extra sauce. No, actually it was, it wasn't Nevada Chicken. It was um, it was a Greek restaurant and that I like to go to Yanni's Greek restaurant. Sorry everybody, but shout out to, to Nevada Chicken. Uh, but it was, is Yannis. And so I get, I get the giro plate and hummus and I like extra. I get hero plate or zero. I don't know how to pronounce it. How do you pronounce it? Hero.

Speaker C: Euro.

Speaker A: Euro. So I get the euro plate. I used to be a pro, uh, cyclist and it was giro. So I, it's a different company, different spelling, but that's where my brain went. But anyway, here's the deal. These systems are getting pretty good. They're getting so good that I didn't even know I was talking to AI until about three quarters of the way through. And I, I called and I said, are you the, are you the Greek restaurant next to the cleaners? And the AI said, yes, we're located at blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah, next to MC Cleaners. And then I said, she, uh, said, how can I help you? And so she was so good that I didn't recognize it was AI till halfway through. And I said, am I speaking to an AI and she said, well, of course you are, but I can take your order. And, and it was so natural. And I'm thinking that people are going to get conditioned this. So I'm just curious with all this technology and all these new systems and online appointment, I mean, I'm just curious what your thoughts are as far as the workforce and how it's going to affect the customer experience.

Speaker C: Well, let's come back to what matters most.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Does your customer feel valued? So when we look at AI uh, that can be a strong yes or a strong no. If you're outsourcing your relationships and your interactions to AI, uh, you're forcing your customer into your process. I'm going to say that's going to set you backwards.

Speaker A: I think so too. I'm in agreement with you on that.

Speaker C: One of the six growth laws was that the biggest threat to your share of wallet isn't your competition, it's your policies. If you put in policies that customers have to fit your very specific AI implementation and can't get help, well, then you're at risk. But if instead AI becomes an enabler that you allow, if it's going to be your primary interaction, you let them bounce out, then you can be okay. Now again, let's come Back to. In B2B, you're typically working with 8, 10, 12 people at your client, your company, depending on the size of the company. Um, some of them like procurement. Yeah. AI automate that. They'll thank you. That's fantastic. When it comes time where a customer is curious about how to work with you differently, what your new products and solutions are, keep that away from AI. Yeah. So it's really focused on what will help them feel valued. If AI speeds them up and allows them to accomplish their job faster, fantastic. If you try to outsource the relationship to AI, your share vault's going to suffer.

Speaker A: Well, I, I totally agree with that. Now, is there anything else we get ready to wrap up this episode that you want to share with our listeners today?

Speaker C: Well, it really comes back to again, um, everybody thinks they understand what customers value. You wouldn't be in business if you didn't understand at least a surface level. But the challenge is that as you grow, you get further and further away from it. And you really need to look from customer experience being a decision you as a leader make to one your organization makes. We're working with a manufacturing client that went from 350 employees to 2,500 over a period of five years.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: Huge growth. And they recognize they're still trying to manage the customer the way they did when they had 350 people. And it's breaking at that point it starts moving away from customer experience as a one off talk, uh, to customers, do the right thing to a process and a system. As you grow, you have to rethink how to create that customer experience. What do we do differently so customers still feel valid and they'll grow with us? What got you there won't get you there. Yep. And so keep refining. How do you understand your customers, and more importantly, how do you act against it?

Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for being a guest on the show today. I know we'll see you at an upcoming summit that we have coming up. And, uh, I can't wait for your new book to come out. All right, everybody, that wraps it up. Thanks for tuning in to Fortify Live. We're all about accelerating your business growth. Until next time, I want you to keep innovating. I want you to keep fortifying and keep accelerating your growth.

Speaker B: Thank you for tuning in to Fortify Live. Make sure to, like, comment and share this episode on your favorite social media platform. And don't forget to subscribe to the Business Growth show podcast, available wherever you get your podcast streaming fix. We air weekly at 11am M Central Time. So until next week, keep pushing the boundaries and never stop growing.