Success Leaves Clues: Ep 305 - How to Turn Marketing Into a Business Growth Driver with Alison Simpson, Retired President & CEO, Canadian Marketing Association

Speaker A: Welcome to the Success Leaves Clues Podcast with Robin Bailey and Al MacDonald. Have you ever wondered what makes someone successful? What are they doing that's different? How do they achieve greatness? We believe that Success Leaves Clues. In this series, we are interviewing very successful people from different walks of life to hear their stories. We'd like to remember, remind our listeners that the views expressed in this podcast are those of our guests and not necessarily those shared by our hosts. Today's episode is sponsored by Life and Legacy Advisory Group. Discover our commitment to our clients at Life and Legacy. Building wealth, securing your family's future, giving back and creating a lasting legacy are not just values, but a way of life. Let us guide you toward a future aligned with what matters most to you. We're also brought to you by ARIA Benefits. If you're a business leader challenged with talent attraction, employee engagement, or supporting mental health, we can help use your benefits package as the key to unlock your workforce. Now, here's your hosts, Robin Bailey and Al MacDonald.

Speaker B: Welcome back to the Success Leaves Clues podcast. I'm your host, Robin Bailey, back at it again with my co host and business partner, Al MacDonald. And Al has been riding his bike, pedaling away for a very good cause. So, Al, as always, I would love for you to share what you're doing. We're all very proud of you at our company and this podcast with what you're doing. So hopefully you can share a little more information.

Speaker C: Yeah, thanks, Robin. So, yes, August is the great cycle challenge, of which, uh, this will be my sixth year, or is my sixth year participating. So it's to raise money for sick kids, kids with cancer. So halfway through the month right now runs till the end of August. I've still got a few more kilometers to go. I've already hit my fundraising target, which is great. Thank you to everyone who has helped out. Now, that certainly doesn't mean, though, that if people still want to contribute, that they can't, because I'm sure that the cause and the hospital will thank you very much for that, as will I. So got a little bit more to go on my side and probably be out there this weekend.

Speaker B: Oh, um, that's awesome, Al. And, you know, one of the things Al and I always talk about is one of the side effects of the podcast has been we'll finish recording an episode, we'll have a great conversation, build a relationship with someone, and they'll say, hey, have you spoken with insert name here? And that happened recently. And that's been one of my favorite things is just all these introductions to really great accomplished people. And one of those people is joining us today. Her name is Allison Simpson and Allison is an accomplished CEO, president and marketing executive known for defining and executing business and marketing strategies that deliver strong value creation and competitive advantage. Alison recently retired as president and Chief Executive Officer of the Canadian Marketing association and where she transformed and repositioned the CMA to help future proof the marketing profession. Allison has also held president and senior executive roles at marketing agencies where she worked across diverse clients including Apple, Tim Hortons, Ford and Cineplex, just to name a few. Her corporate marketing experience includes executive roles at Holt, Renfrew, TMX Group and Rogers, and entrepreneurial experience as CMO and head of consumer business at Key, the world's first all digital on demand, fractional ownership platform. Beyond work, Alison is an accomplished endurance athlete who has completed 65 marathons and ultras, including a 250 kilometer race across the Sahara desert. Allison, first of all, welcome to the show.

Speaker D: I am thrilled to be here. And Al, congratulations on taking on your cycling challenge. I have another good friend that's doing it and loving it, so I will happily contribute to, uh, your cause as well.

Speaker B: Oh, that's wonderful. Okay, so the obvious place we have to start because 302 episodes in, that's the first time I've included it in someone's bio that they are doing marathons, which we've all heard of, I'm sure, but ultras, that's a new one for me. I have a feeling it has to do something with a 250 kilometer race, but across the Sahara desert. So what's the story there, Alison? I'm sure that's an interesting story and I'm sure it, I'm sure it ties in with your business life, which maybe we'll dive into later in the episode.

Speaker D: Uh, absolutely. So I will say that it can sound very virtuous having run 65 marathons. The start was anything but virtuous. I was actually at an industry event with two good friends. They had both done marathons before. We had recently done the Sporting Life 10K, which at that point was the longest distance I'd ever run. I was feeling very good about myself and excited. So we had a couple glasses of wine. They started to talk about the marathon in the fall and how great it would be to do it together. And then I had another glass of wine and it started to seem like an even better idea. And they knew me well enough to make me shake on it. So we shook hands on it. I showed up at the office the next day to this Excel spreadsheet. That was my 16 week training program and honestly one of the most intimidating pieces of paper I've ever seen. So someone who ran a 10k and thought that was a major accomplishment was now looking at a schedule or is going to be running like 70km a week doing 30km long runs on a Sunday. But both of the friends stuck with me through the whole training. We did the September race together and then I was absolutely hooked. I never thought I would be running 65 marathons, but after running Toronto, I also ran one in Venice, Italy, and discovered that there's a marathon pretty much anywhere in the world that you want to go. And I love to travel, so being able to combine running with great travel really has fed my passion. For sure.

Speaker C: That is the best excuse. As many people know, I'm a cyclist and, uh, one of the best things is when I go on my Tours and I've got one planned for this fall. But you're right, you can just. When you combine those two loves, what could be better?

Speaker D: Absolutely. And then the 250 kilometer race. A good friend in the industry called one day and he had done one of these races and he was looking to do it as a fundraiser for navs, which is the National Advertising Benevolence Society. I sat on the board of NABS at one point earlier in my career, so we wanted to get a bunch of marketing executives together to run the Sahara race and raise money. And it was one of those completely instantaneous decisions. And honestly, I think it has to be, because if you sort of strip back what the challenge is, it's like you're going to run 250km across the Sahara desert with everything you need, including your food for the week on your backpack. And you're going to have good medical support along the way, but no other support, no modern conveniences whatsoever, no toilets, nothing like that. You don't sign up for something like that if you really think rationally about it. It had to be an emotional decision and it was grueling, obviously, but one of the best things in my life I've ever done. And we also raised $100,000 for NAV.

Speaker B: So amazing.

Speaker D: Rewarding on a whole bunch of levels.

Speaker B: So cool. Yeah, no kidding. Well, you've already given a clue away because, you know, you said someone had given you a glass of wine and then you started talking about this. Well, the last time I was together with Al, of course, and you know, over drinks, Al starts saying, well, you should get into cycling. So I think this is Al's way of trying to coerce me to get into cycling. And you know what, um, as someone who does interval runs and my knees are starting to feel it, maybe that's a good path I should go down. So maybe we'll get there.

Speaker D: It's a very successful strategy in my experience. Alison, stick to it.

Speaker B: Well, let's talk a little bit about business because I find this world fascinating, the marketing world, and I'd love to get your take on this. You know, we see companies out there and they're spending millions to shape people's external perception.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Of what a company looks like. But internally, employees usually know the truth way before consumers. So from what you've seen, what your experience is, what are the earliest signs that a company's culture and its brand story are really starting to drift apart?

Speaker D: This is such a great question. And the language typically will tell you long before any data that you have an issue and what the issues are. I certainly experienced this when I first joined Holt Renfrew. They're obviously a brand that's all about the ultimate in luxury and that's not something that you can just declare. It's something that the people, especially the customer facing team, really need to believe in and they have to care a lot about it in order to truly deliver it. So when I joined, I was doing lots of one on ones. I was spending a lot of time in our stores and I noticed how the team was talking on the floor. And this wasn't in a customer complaint, it was just in a casual hallway conversation between colleagues. And I heard an associate say the brand needs to fix this instead of saying we need to fix this. And it's only one little word, the versus we. But it was a really important signal that there was just a psychological distance between the person and the mission that they're supposed to being embodying and bringing to life for our end consumers. And that really shows a hairline crack that if it isn't addressed, can become a fracture remarkably quickly. So that's an example from my halt renfrew days. There's a pretty simple test that I've used across a number of organizations to help gauge that culture. Brand drift. If you ask your employees to describe the company in three to five words and then ask your customers to do the same thing, if those lists are diverging significantly, that's not a communications problem. It really becomes a leadership problem. So the fix isn't going to be a brand new brand campaign. It really requires an honest conversation at the Top about whether the leadership is actually living the values that they're asking everyone else in the organization to perform. And then like most problems, the sooner that you catch it, the better off you're going to be. So that means you really need to stay close to all levels across the organization, especially your customer facing team. And that's something I've done throughout my career. Whether it's patching into a call center when I was at Rogers or when I started at Holt Renfrew. I went across the country to see all the stores. And the day before I was officially showing up, I made a purpose to visit each store across the country very casually dressed, not looking luxury at all, not announcing who I was and just experience the store like a regular customer and seeing how it was. And then the next day when I showed up and was officially introduced to the full team, I shared the feedback. What the store had done really well, where there were some challenges and it really reinforced that customers should be treated well regardless of what they look like. And your first impression might be if you walk in and think, well, I don't think they can afford luxury, you can often be very wrong about that. So it was a good way to kick off my tenure at home Ren through by reminding them that the customer facing role they have is mission critical to the brand and business. And they really were such a powerful part of delivering the magic for whole entry.

Speaker B: Allison it's funny, we were chatting earlier on an earlier podcast that we recorded and the way I'd kind of connected with this person was they had put a post on LinkedIn and they had said they'd run into an issue with this product of a company and they weren't getting anywhere with the call center. So they thought, well, I'll reach out to the CEO on LinkedIn. And he immediately dropped everything, made sure that person was well taken care of. And I just thought, well, what a great example for his customer service team. You know, the people that are working there, just to see how important it was. And I actually reached out to him because I wanted to talk to him about it. And I said, well, why did you do that? Like what caused you, you know, your CEO, you're running a very successful firm, very busy. What caused you to do that? He said, caring doesn't exist enough in business. And he says, I wanted to demonstrate that we actually care. So if I can handle it, I'm going to handle it. And he goes, make no mistake. After that happened, I had a meeting with my team and said, you know, this shouldn't have escalated to me, but I'm glad it did because here's a really great learning opportunity. I find those leaders who are willing to kind of go outside of, hey, that's not my job, and demonstrate just amplifies and cascades down through the company. Has that been your experience as well?

Speaker D: Absolutely. In fact, when I was at, uh, Holt Renfrew, I would have people that would reach out to me through LinkedIn too, if they weren't getting the resolution or the attention. And without a doubt, every time you stop what you're doing and you make it a priority, because that means no one else in the organization can let themselves off the hook. If the CEO, if, uh, the CMO can stop what they're doing and make the customer their immediate priority, then why can't anyone else do that? So I think it's incredibly powerful to lead by example in that way.

Speaker C: Alison, you've talked a little bit about some disconnects where maybe the message isn't consistent and it doesn't make its way all the way through the organization. But. But let's look at that the opposite way, because you've worked with a lot of iconic brands that have obviously massive recognition. Can you talk about maybe a decision you've seen where the leaders made the decision that really strengthened the trust and built that culture inside, and maybe the customers didn't even see it, or they saw it long after that decision was made and the team experienced it.

Speaker D: There's one moment that is definitely burned into my memory, and it's from pretty early on in my career. There was a significant project. I'll keep the names of the brands and the people out of this, but there was a project that had definitely gone sideways. It wasn't a catastrophe, but it was definitely a real miss. And at the very next all hands meeting, the leader that was responsible stood up and said, this is on me. I made the wrong call. And here's what I learned from it. You could literally hear a pin drop. And then, um, this is the part I'll never forget. It was like the whole room just exhaled. So that leader, in refusing to deflect or to spin, built more trust in that moment than a dozen successful quarters probably could have. And every person and team that was watching saw how leadership behaves when it's hard. And that truly is when culture is actually formed. And then when I apply that to my, uh, career, I've typically been attracted to roles that involve major transformations, whether it's a CMA or an agency ejwt early in my career or opportunities where the businesses are going through pretty dramatic fundamental changes to their competitive landscape. In all of those situations, what works for the organization in the past likely isn't going to continue to work as well moving forward. So from a career perspective, that's an amazing opportunity and a great way to contribute and make a powerful difference. But to be successful, it also means that it's going to involve taking some really big risks, like looking at measured risks and being sure that you're not going to get everything right. So the learning from our missteps can be absolutely invaluable. As long as we accept accountability, we're open to trying, we're quick to evolve, and we learn from what didn't work. So that very early in my career experience is absolutely something I've reflected on throughout my career in every situation where I've needed to lead by example and help make it safe for people at all levels to admit when things aren't working. Because there can be real power and great business outcomes if you identify the problem, learn from it, share, uh, the learning, and move forward.

Speaker C: Allison, I love the way that you talked about the accountability and you said everyone in the boardroom exhaled, but can you maybe dig a little deeper into then what the consequences were or what, like, how do people react after they left the boardroom? Because I'm thinking it's probably pretty positive.

Speaker D: Yeah, so. And it was bigger than the boardroom. It was literally like a full team town hall meeting. So people at all levels were there as this very senior person stepped up and admitted that they owned the responsibility and it hadn't gone well. A key piece of it was sharing. Here's what we learned, here's why we thought it was going to work, here's why it hasn't worked, and here's how we're evolving and changing our approach in order to preserve the intent of the idea and hopefully deliver the business outcomes that were planned. So part of how people reacted was just realizing if someone that senior can admit when they're wrong and not try to like, deflect or blame it on anyone else, then people in a more junior role certainly should be more comfortable being transparent about their mistakes or when they don't feel confident about a decision and seek guidance. And, um, then also the way that the other executives rallied around, I'd like to think it wasn't sort of pre planned because the whole room seemed sort of a little shocked at first and then the massive exhale. But the way the other his colleagues rallied around and talked about how they could support refining the approach and hopefully improving the approach. That also sent a really powerful signal across all levels of the organization that no one's in it alone.

Speaker C: That's a great story and I'm glad you shared that with us. And I think, uh, you know, people can definitely learn from that.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. You know, Alison, if people have listened to the podcast before, they know we've had the conversation around HR leaders getting a seat at the table. What we haven't discussed is that from the marketing standpoint, and I know I've been involved with so many companies because that's what I do. I'm always in talking with companies, CEOs and chief people, officers and business owners. And you know, a lot of the time I get the feeling that marketing is viewed still as a cost center instead of that real strategic driver. So in your experience, can you just talk about have you ever had to fight for a seat at the table? And consequently, what's changed that conversation?

Speaker D: It's such a great question. There are very strong parallels between HR and marketing when it comes to that seat at the table. For sure, early in my career this was absolutely a challenge. And candidly, I'll say the conversation has certainly evolved, but there's still an underlying tension that hasn't been fully resolved. Now it's less about whether marketing deserves a seat and more about whether the CMO actually has access to the data, the CEO and the budget authority to make the seat truly meaningful. Because I'm sure it's the same in hr. A symbolic seat that has no real leverage is as limiting as not having a seat at all. So in my experience, what changed the conversation for me every single time was always the same thing. You need to speak the language of the business. The purpose of marketing is always about growing the business. It's always about delivering results. So it's absolutely imperative at every level to translate marketing into the language that the CEO and the CFO actually think in. It's not about reach. It's not about brand equity scores or creative awards. I don't want to be dismissive of those things. Those things absolutely are important from a profession perspective. But by focusing on revenue, profit, customer, lifetime market share, those are the mission critical elements that will drive a business forward. And when you build a business case in that language, the framing shifts from how much does marketing cost to how much is it costing us if we don't invest in marketing, I can bring this to life with a bit of a halt. Renfrew example too. At, uh, Holt Renfrew. We were pitching a growth strategy. It was all around attracting the next generation of luxury customers. And it went far beyond a rebrand. It included launching new services. It included a loyalty program. So they weren't marketing initiatives. They were really customer retention and a revenue diversification play. That Strategy delivered a 21% annual sales increase, and the loyalty program had 270,000 members in its first year. So with those results, no one was arguing about whether marketing had earned a place. A 21% increase isn't a marketing metric, it's a business metric. And it happened to come from a marketing decision. So suddenly, you're not fighting for a seat at the table, you're really helping to build the table.

Speaker B: That's really interesting. And it kind of makes me think of conversations that I've had with Al, because back in whatever year it was, it's a couple of years ago now, I said, dal, uh, we had launched our original branding in 2005, and then from 2005, 2018, we operated under that brand. And then one day I came into the partners meeting and I said, hey, I've got an idea for a different brand for this side of our business, and here's why. And luckily, the guy said, yep, that sounds great. How are we going to get the name out there? Because by this time, Alison, our original branding was really well known, especially in the corridor where we work. And I remember saying to. I know I'll start a podcast and I'll never forget, I'll look at me saying, oh, you know how to do that? No, no idea at all. And here we are 300 episodes later, and. And, you know, I remember having the conversation especially early on, because we're spending money, like, it's not that expensive to do a podcast, but once you start gaining some scale and hiring a production team like we have and editing, it starts to get expensive. And there was a point where Al and I are having a conversation to say, okay, this is marketing, because we gotta get the brand out there, but how do we measure what it's doing in terms of return, driving revenue, that sort of thing? And now we're at a point where it is doing all those things. And I tell people in my industry, I said, this is one of the best investments that you can make in terms of driving revenue and driving that brand. So I think it's important to talk about those metrics. And you said something about, how did you put it? Having a seat at the table. But it was just symbolic. That's what you said. Yeah, right. Unless you can actually have some influence and have some authority and you have that budget to do what you need to do, you're not going to be able to accomplish something. So I think that's really important to put point out that it has to be more than a symbolic seat at the table to help drive that revenue.

Speaker D: And the relationship with the CEO, I would say the CFO as well. But the relationship with the CEO and having an understanding and partnership and an ability to share thinking and to bounce ideas off each other and have the support that is mission critical. Because I've seen others in situations where they had technically had the seat at the table, but they couldn't get the CEO on side with the importance of marketing. So it really was symbolic.

Speaker B: So I would echo that. And I know Al wants to jump in here, but Al will appreciate this story. So I am the creative in our company. I will have so many ideas by three in the morning that, you know, I have to write these down. And I would come to my partners, Al and Joe, and so many times that I would just throw things out there against the wall. And to your point, it was a really good relationship because although a lot of ideas that I threw up, they were like, hey, that's great, however. And then the next one, uh, that's great, however. But then maybe by the sixth one, oh, great idea, let's implement that. And it was done in such a way where I felt comfortable that I could bring ideas forward knowing that I was in a safe space that, well, that's a stupid idea, right? And I didn't have the skill set that that person had that said, hey, here's where we're going. As a company, I want to be able to drive all those important metrics that a CEO would find really important as well as the cfo. But I was in a space where I could say, I know I can come to the table with all these ideas and they're not all going to work. But it was happening in such a way that my creativity was never shut down. And as a result of that, all of these good things happened over the years. Not every idea, but a handful of those things that allowed us to get to this point. So I think that relationship and where it's where I really appreciate Al is so, so important that you feel that you can bring those ideas forward and not be shut down.

Speaker D: The complementary skill sets that the three of you clearly have is incredibly powerful and the learning that comes with that because Al knows that he can always count on Robin for great ideas. And Robin, through the conversations and the vetting and figuring out why an idea was supported and why it wasn't, you probably gained a lot of understanding on what's driving the business. So you're growing your business acumen at the same time that your colleagues are embracing creativity and innovation.

Speaker C: Alison, can I take a little bit of a different tact on that question? Because we started off talking about how sometimes marketing is seen as a cost center. I think it's fair to say, though, that there are some companies who think marketing will solve everything and, like, literally are just happy to throw money at it with the thought that the more marketing we do, the better we're going to get. I think that's, you know, sometimes that does happen. So you said it's important to speak the language of the CEO and cfo. One of the biggest challenges is, hey, I'm willing to spend money on marketing. I think it's going to be beneficial. But how do I know? How do I know that when we are successful, it's because of that budget we put towards marketing? Like, how have you gone about showing that it is a good investment and that it is a great return on the dollar?

Speaker D: And that earlier in my career, it was actually quite challenging to be able to draw a direct line from every dollar spent to the best sales result? That's become a lot easier. I mean, the proliferation of, um, digital has made that a lot easier to track. And there are new tools, whether programmatic media. There are new measuring tools that make it easier to draw strong parallels and to see the connecting dots. If it's not a solid line, there are certainly strong connecting dots to understand as well. And then there's also, like, if you're launching a new product, if you're launching in a new market, those examples are a bit pure. And it's easier to prove the role that marketing has in that. But overall, uh, today it's a lot easier to understand and to demonstrate which marketing dollars are working. Certainly more so than it would have been 20, 30, 30 years ago. And there's a famous quote from a British retailer, Wannebacker, from years and years ago saying, I know 50% of my marketing dollars are working. I just don't know which 50%. And that was certainly very true when I started my career.

Speaker C: You've, uh, made some changes recently in your life, some changes to your roles, and I love the term here, rewirement. Instead of retirement, which I thought was great, you're looking back at your career path and your journey. Is there anything that you wish that you, uh, could have told yourself way back when that would have made a difference in maybe how you approached your career or some of the decisions you made. Is there one key thing that you would wish that you'd known way back when?

Speaker D: So there's a ton. Absolutely. I've always been curious and always looking to learn and certainly made more than my share of mistakes along the way. So I'll give you a couple. The first and probably the most important is to say yes before you feel really ready. So I would certainly tell younger Alison to say yes before you feel comfortable. And it's not about being reckless, it's about being deliberate. So when I think about some of the most formative roles that I've had, I didn't feel remotely ready for them. And the discomfort, in many ways, was the point. So I felt a bit of a rule of thumb that I've shared with people I've mentored as well. If I felt about 70% ready and 30% terrified, it probably meant I was in the exact right place, because the 30% is where all the growth is going to happen. That same principle actually made running my first marathon, which felt absurd. Like the idea of running 42 kilometers seemed impossible initially. But it applies to every stretch role that I've ever taken. You don't prepare by waiting until you're ready. You prepare by starting now. If I think about what else I would wish I'd known earlier or learned earlier, and this is probably the lesson that took me the longest to learn, clarity is more valuable than certainty. Early on, I absolutely thought a, uh, strong leader was supposed to have all of the answers. And when you think about that's a, uh, ridiculous premise. No one has all of the answers. But there's this image around leadership that the leader should always know. What I've come to really understand is the best leaders are comfortable operating in ambiguity. Not because they're okay with not knowing, but because they built the frameworks and the teams to navigate towards answers together. So I learned that when I say, I don't know, let's figure it out, it's not a sign of weakness. It actually becomes an invitation to your team and your colleagues. And that turned out to be a lot more powerful than pretending that I had certainty that I certainly didn't. And when you think about what's going on in the world today, with how quickly business is moving, being comfortable with ambiguity is absolutely mission critical for leaders at, uh, all levels, for sure. And then, if you'll indulge me in A third for me. The other thing I'd go back and tell myself is to invest in your relationships before you need them and to do it without an agenda. The career capital that really is compounded the most for me isn't any individual role or business result that I'm proud of. It's the people, it's the mentors who absolutely cared enough to tell me the truth. It's the peers who really challenge my thinking. It's the teams who trusted me to do the great work together. And building your network with generosity will sustain you through every heart chapter. I've watched a lot of really impressive people confuse building a network with collecting contacts, and they're simply not the same thing.

Speaker C: Well, I'm glad you did share all three. And it's really interesting because as I was listening to your answers, you're not the first one to really highlight some of those things, the relationships, even. Just in our previous episodes today that we recorded, our guests were talking about that uncertainty. And if you're going to wait for the perfect time, it's never going to come. So it's so important to take the first step. So, you know, I think that's just really reinforcing some of the things we've heard on before, but I think it's really important to just hear it again

Speaker D: when I apply the first lesson to, uh, business as well. I know lots of organizations aren't comfortable implementing something new until they're like 85% certain. For companies that are willing to do it at 70%, you still have pretty good odds, and that becomes a competitive advantage because that's speed to market. Right. And also, uh, depending on how you go into the launch, if you do more of a soft launch, you can learn a lot or be refining your approach, but you're going to be miles ahead of the competitor that really wanted to get to that 85 or 90 degree certainty.

Speaker C: Yeah, kind of like somebody, if they wanted to start a podcast and they were like 100% certain on how they did it versus, I don't really have any idea what I'm doing here, but I'm just going to figure it out. Kind of like that idea.

Speaker D: Kind of like that idea. See, Robin, all your lessons are resonating.

Speaker B: I knew we'd figure it out eventually. Well, Maybe. Maybe by 500 episodes we'll have it figured out. Who knows? We need some more practice. Okay. I want to talk about something fun because I know you have a love of travel and so do I. And we'll talk about the marathons in a second favorite destination so far.

Speaker D: Okay, that's the hardest question you asked me.

Speaker B: I know it's hard to narrow down, but you can give me a couple if you want.

Speaker D: So one that pops to mind for its uniqueness is Bhutan. My husband and I were there almost 12 years ago now. Before it was a democracy, it was still run as a kingdom. And it's such a stunning country. They have a gross happiness index and it's just a beautiful, beautiful country. So absolutely love that the Sahara. I mean, running partway through the Sahara with a group of friends and colleagues became a very unique, amazing experience as well. And then last March, India had been on my list of places I wanted to see that I hadn't had yet been to for many, many years. So last March, my husband and I went to India and absolutely loved it. So those would be three top of mind. Now you have to answer the same question.

Speaker B: Well, I'll tell you about. Because it's hard to answer a destination. I agree with you. Right, because there's so many reasons. But I will tell you about one of my favorite Trips. So in 2003, my dad and I went back to Scotland where he went to school. When he was growing up in Glasgow, he was sent to a school for very poor kids. People had no money. It was called the Queen Victoria School in Dunblane, Scotland. And now it's quite a well to do school. So my mom was doing a separate trip. So dad said, hey, why don't you come back with me to this? It was the 50th anniversary of the school. All my dad's mates were going to be there. So remember the MasterCard commercials? I mean, you're in marketing, you'll remember how brilliant of a commercial. You know, here's the cost of this and this. But this, the experience was priceless.

Speaker D: Absolutely.

Speaker B: It was a MasterCard experience trip. So one night I go to the school during the day. I'm meeting all of dad's mates, had a great time. And then they said, oh, everybody's going out to the pub, this tiny little pub in Dunblane, Scotland. And I was telling Al, I said the first challenge I had was someone would buy me a beer, a pint, and then someone would buy me another. And I'd managed to finish one. I'd put it down and in, you know, that beautiful Scottish brogue. Right Robin, you're ready for another? And I'd have two. And I'm looking over and I'm sitting there getting slosh with my dad and this had never happened. This is the only time it ever happened in our life. And we were having a great time. And Allison, I'm hearing stories about my dad that I never heard. Some of them I wouldn't repeat to my mom, of course, when we got home. But it was. And then I remember we were staying in this tiny little hotel room above the pub, and our beds are this close to each other. And I'm looking over and my dad's passed out drunk and he's snoring away. And I thought, this is one of the best nights of my life.

Speaker D: That, uh, is incredible. I love everything about that story that was one of.

Speaker B: And of course now my dad is gone and it remains one of my favorite memories of him. And I'm so glad that we did that together. So I was talking to someone the other day and they said, oh, uh, I'm trying to convince my mom to go back to Italy because it'd be nice if we could go together. I said, do whatever you have to to take that trip because there's never going to be a day that you're going to regret it.

Speaker D: Absolutely.

Speaker B: So I agree with you. Now, one thing I did want to ask you because you've done some very unique experiences kind of outside of the ordinary, and people will think, well, that's outside of work. But I've always thought that these experiences that we have in life, these moments in time that we create an experience that does filter into who we show up as, uh, at work. So I'd love if you could just talk to how it's affect affected you.

Speaker D: I am passionate for, you know that what we do outside of our quote unquote day job can be pivotal to how we build our career, for sure. And when I think about my marathon experience and the training for what I didn't anticipate was how much I would learn from every run by kilometer third of a marathon. Your body definitely wants to quit, regardless of how well you've trained. Your brain starts to make deals with yourself about you don't really need to finish this. And the skill that I developed over time was really learning to distinguish between discomfort that was telling me to slow down and pain that was telling me to really stop. And that distinction between is this hard or is this harmful? Turns out to be incredibly useful in any boardroom and negotiations as you're managing through long organizational transformation when the end isn't yet in sight. The parallel that surprises many people is that the same framework in my running really can apply to my professional career as well, in running, if I was learning to ask, is it hard or is it harmful? In leadership, the question that we often have to ask, is this a problem or is this a crisis? Because hard and harmful require completely different responses. And a problem and a crisis also require completely different responses. So having that understanding in that lens and also knowing that we could work through it, and I had the mental fortitude and strength to accomplish things that I never would have thought I could accomplish, certainly fueled my crazy personal adventures, but it also fueled my belief in what I could accomplish from a career perspective as well. And then the other thing that I certainly learned, particularly with the Sahara, is that preparation is the real competitive advantage. The Sahara race at 250km, it's over six days, it's incredibly hot, and you carry everything that you need to survive on your back, so there really are no shortcuts. And what that race absolutely burned into me is that preparation is everything. The race is won or lost. Long before I hopped on the plane to go to Egypt. And it was through the really unglamorous months of training and the commitment to really stick to it that really allowed me to be successful in that endeavor. And that's so true of our professional lives too. It's rarely when you're standing on stage, accepting an award or doing a big presentation, it's the thinking and the hard work and the energy that you invest preparing for the business, preparing for the new competitor to come to market, preparing for a transformation that's long overdue. Those are really what will set you up for success for sure.

Speaker B: I know Al will have some commentary as well, because Al has played sports, he's coached sports, he's had kids, he's coach. From my experience, I don't do it anymore, of course, but I trained for a long time in Brazilian Jiu jitsu and I remember stepping onto the mats for the first time and this little 18 year old who, you know, I had 30 pounds on, just wiped the floor with me. And one of the reasons I learned over the years when I was training in that martial art was how important it was to face adversity. And I got humbled so many times, and I humbled people along the way as well. But I always thought that was such a good lesson to realize that there are people out there at higher levels, faster, stronger, you know, more technique, and just facing adversity just prepared you for life a little bit better. Because we're going to face that either in our personal life or our, uh, career. And knowing that that's Going to happen, I think is really valuable. And I know Al, you have some experience on this side as well, so.

Speaker C: Yes, but I wanted to go back to something else has said before, and I think it's really important. One of the things that Robin and I have talked about again, quite often is we benefit from the podcast by listening to smart people and the things they say and what you talked about, hard versus harmful. Like, I think that's a really, really key point. And you know something, I'm definitely going to store away in, whether it be business or whether it be while I'm out in my bike or whatever, I think that's such a really simple phrase, and yet it is really, like, meaningful and impactful. So I'm going to steal that and I'm going to store it away in the back of my little brain and recall on that sometimes.

Speaker D: Thank you. And I learned that I was reminded of that lesson last September when I was running the Berlin Marathon. And it also taught me that me bay didn't learn the lesson quite well enough. So I had a horrible. I've done 65 marathons. I've always finished. They haven't been pretty, but I've always finished. And that was sort of my mindset going into this. I trained super well for the race, was really excited about it. And at kilometer 10, I got tripped. And there's 58,000 runners in the race. So I was in a group of runners. I got tripped and had a horrible fall and ended up breaking my shoulder in five places, my elbow. And she, like, did remarkably bad damage, but I got up, my legs were fine. I thought I just dislocated my shoulder. I kept running another 7K. And then I realized, okay, this is not hard. This is definitely harmful. And it was the first time I've ever not finished a marathon, which, from an emotional perspective, was unbelievably challenging. But what an idiot for keeping running 7km when I clearly shouldn't have. And it's also a reminder that sometimes we need to relearn those lessons, and sometimes we need to let our ego get out of the way. Certainly in my case.

Speaker C: Shall we jump into our final question, or did you have anything else that you wanted to add, Robin?

Speaker B: No, I think it's time, Alan. I'm looking forward to hearing what Allison has to say here.

Speaker C: Wonderful. So if you're ready for it, Allison. We always finish with the same question. And it goes like this. A, uh, society grows great when old persons plant trees in whose shade they will never sit. So maybe you can talk about some of those proverbial trees that you are planting. It could be around your career, it could be around your adventures, maybe your community or maybe your family. But I'd just love to hear what you have.

Speaker D: I love the signature question. And in all of the episodes that I've listened to, it's so inspiring to hear how everyone answers it. So I'm looking forward to answering. So I'll answer in a couple of parts. The shade that I definitely most want to plant is proof that ambition and integrity are not competing priorities. You can absolutely lead with ambition, kindness and integrity simultaneously and at, uh, full force. And early in my career, I saw a version of business that treated those almost as competing values. And the belief that you could be driven and successful or you could be principled in kind. Thinking that you could do all of those together was somehow seen as naive. And I don't believe that for a second. Every transformation, I'm proudest of the work that I've done that is absolutely been focused on delivering on all of those measures together. And I think that's when you do the best work and have the best accomplishments and make the greatest impact. So that is absolutely a tree that I'd like to plant. And certainly people that have worked with me, I hope that's something that they take away and continue to build on. M as well. And then a couple of times in my career, most recently it was at the CMA. I was the first female in the 59 year history of the Canadian Marketing Association. Much earlier in my career, I was the first female president of ejwt, an agency. And that's something I've spent time thinking about as well. Not about what it meant to me, but what it can represent going forward. So what matters most to me about that isn't what happened during my tenure. It's the expectation that it can set. So if one person who doesn't think that they fit the traditional mold of a CEO or a president looks to those rules and thinks, wow, if she did it, uh, maybe it's possible. After all, that is, uh, by far a more important legacy than all of the positive business results that I contributed. And then I haven't had a traditional career. So the third shade I'd like to plant is that don't think of your career so much as a ladder, but as a landscape. And what I really hope the next generation carries forward is that the most interesting paths are rarely straight up. I've moved laterally. I've made bets on emerging spaces. I've Gone from agency to client side to startup to trade association to board director. And I've worked across incredibly diverse industries. From the outside looking in, most of those moves looked pretty unconventional. But from the inside, they really were all connected by the same question. And the question consistently was, where can I make the most impact and learn the most at the same time? So in following that question, rather than chasing a title, that's the third thing that I hope people take with them.

Speaker C: Well, not unexpectedly, that was an amazing answer. And I said before about how sometimes we can pull little nuggets ourselves from these conversations. And I talked about your earlier one about is this hard or is it harmful? When you were answering your question there of the trees that you want to plant, I was reminded with the first part of your answer of another nugget I heard one time. And the person said, reject the tyranny of or embrace the power of. And. And when you were talking about the two things that can coexist and do not have to compete, that came to mind again. So, anyway, thank you for sharing that. I think, um, that your message was very powerful and impactful.

Speaker D: Well, thank you both. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.

Speaker B: We did, too. This has been a fantastic conversation, Alison.

Speaker D: We.

Speaker B: For people who want to find out more about what you're doing, maybe that's in your ultras, in your racing, or even this rewirement, what's the best way for them to reach out?

Speaker D: I'm very active on LinkedIn. I'm planning some fun news and announcements in the fall around my rewirement, and certainly some fun personal adventures as well. So feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I would love to connect.

Speaker B: All right. Amazing. Well, that does it for today's episode. I think you can tell Al and I really enjoy this conversation. As always, we hope you do, too. If you have any questions for us, please feel free to give us a call or by joining the conversation on LinkedIn. We saw it here today. Success leaves clues, my friends. We'll see you next time.