Four Careers, One Through-Line: Joy Brown Kirst on Reinvention and the Skills That Travel

Christine Courtney: Hello everybody. Welcome to Stepping Into Your Leadership. I'm your host, Christine Courtney, and I'm joined today by somebody who I think you're really going to love, ⁓ Joy Brown-Kerst. Joy is the founder and CEO of Modern Age Skin, a skincare brand focused on perimenopausal and menopausal skin. ⁓ launching Modern Age Skin, Joy built a career in executive search. Joy Brown Kirst: you Christine Courtney: and university external relations with leadership roles connected to Heidrich and struggles and Rice University. She is also a Rice MBA and a trained skincare formulator. But what I love about Joy's story is not just about her starting a company, but it's really how she translated all those years of leadership experience in these different worlds into entirely new industry and doing it with purpose, curiosity, and a really clear point of view. So we're going to be talking about reinvention, what comes with it when you pivot, and how all those past experiences can become the training ground for what you will build next. Personally, also what I love about her, besides her flawless skin, is ⁓ she's a no-nonsense leader. She's addicted to college football, ⁓ she can belt out a great 90s tune. ⁓ So joy, welcome. Joy Brown Kirst: Hi, thank you. I guess this is what happens when you know somebody personally, right? They dig in on all the dirt on you. Christine Courtney: They know all the dirt. See all the other podcasts. You're not going to learn all that about joy. If you know me though, if I had a few drinks, I'd make you actually sing for us. I will not make you do that now. But if you ever get the, if you ever get the chance to see joy, uh, sing frontline, the song, boo boy is pretty fun. So why don't you tell us first, tell us what, because I love the idea of modern age skin. I have some of the products, which is very exciting. Joy Brown Kirst: I know, right? Yeah, I appreciate that. Christine Courtney: And tell me what made you start it? What made you get into this idea? Joy Brown Kirst: So it wasn't something that I intended to do to begin with. I was just having skin problems and it went on for a really long time. It was suddenly I'm 16 years old again with like acne, but then also the lovely skin and you're starting to get wrinkles and fine lines and spots and all that fun stuff that, you know, you fully were not expecting to get it all again. So ⁓ I having some other health problems along with that too. Turns out all of this stuff was related to perimenopause, but nobody diagnosed me then that was you know 15 plus years ago. So I was 38 when I went into perimenopause but nobody told me by the way until after I already went through it that I finally found out that it was perimenopause. So I was just looking to solve my skin problems because I finally you know I've had kind of cretis skin as a teenager and all those hormone fluctuations then and then I was in my 20s and it was great everything was wonderful and then I get to my late 30s and I'm back to being 16 again. So I did just stripped down my skincare and did a lot of DIYing it, doing a lot of research. I have a graduate degree in library science, so I am a research person, so I spent a lot of time online, like finding the right stuff to use. And when I moved to New York, ⁓ because I was in, that was in Texas, all in Texas, and then when I moved to New York about 10 years ago, ⁓ was still fiddling around with it, but then I was getting more into it, and I went back and got a formulation certification because I didn't want to peeled the top layer of my friend's skin off when they started asking me for samples of So I did it properly. And then I still had no intention of turning it into a line, but it was a white space in the industry. I did in my previous life work mostly with venture capital and private equity backed technology, disruptive technology companies in the energy industry. So that was space I knew those guys and how they worked and did a little research and realized what a white space it was. I mean, it's a $600 billion industry all in that menopause, perimenopause market. nobody was speaking to me about skincare. All it was is, you know, the expensive stuff that was very thick and occlusive, which is not very helpful when you have acne, ⁓ Once you ⁓ putting that thick stuff on your skin, it just makes it break out more. ⁓ I ultimately ended up launching the brand itself in 22. I got the all set up and got my trademark and launched the brand in 22 as an organization. And then in 23, we did a soft launch with the first product, the oil. And in February of 24, I did a hard lunch. And in October of that year, I did the second launch of another product, my overnight serum. So, and we launched the last product this past late last year, the cleanser called the reset. So it was kind of, it was a long time. to convince me that this seemed like a good idea to turn into a business. It's a noisy market, right? How many times do you get like another, ⁓ my God, how many things do you get like, here's a new this, here's a new that, right? It's like nonstop and the barriers to entry in the United States are very minimal. So it's easy for people to just jump on in. Christine Courtney: Yeah. Is it? That's true. How do you cut through that noise? Joy Brown Kirst: you really have to pick your lane, right? I mean, like my, you know, I tell everybody this, that this product, these products are really good for hormonally fluctuating skin. So it's good for women who are pregnant. It's good for teenagers. My teenagers use it. You don't have to be female. My husband uses it, right? But the reason I created this product was for me going through perimenopause and menopause. And so that's who I'm speaking to. My story is what people want to hear. So I, Christine Courtney: love it. Joy Brown Kirst: pick that lane and really truly speak to those people in a way that other people or other brands are not talking to them yet. Christine Courtney: And do people buy this from you? Are you just doing like online sales? Are you doing in stores? How are you doing it? Like what's your. Joy Brown Kirst: I've, it's mostly direct to consumer, like on my website and some other drop shipping sites that I'm on online. I've done some pop-ups with another organization that I was with. I just ⁓ another group called Posh Mom that's out of Connecticut and they do live selling and ⁓ do some in-person events too. So I'll be doing some ⁓ like events and selling as well at those. But for the most part, it's been direct to consumers. Christine Courtney: That's cool. Joy Brown Kirst: since I started. Christine Courtney: So when you talk, love that idea and our accents are gonna come out now as we talk because we're both from Texas, where you lived a long time there. ⁓ there's a, ⁓ fun, it's interesting to me that you were in the oil and gas industry and you notice I have to really say, not say all, ⁓ in gas. Now you're making a wall for your face. ⁓ But how did you translate Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah. ⁓ Not all. ⁓ huh. Christine Courtney: skills that you were learning in that former part of your life and that work that you had done with VCs. Like what were the things that carried over? Because tell you that I talked to a lot of young people who think, and you know this, ⁓ have young adults in your household that are going to college and stuff. But ⁓ I talk to young people who are working in their first job, sometimes they think ⁓ that's their path. Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah. Christine Courtney: and that they're going to be on that path and that it's just like school. You just get better at that, get better and better and better and move up that same path. But more often than not, when you're our age, you know, the more people you talk to, the more people's paths are very winding and not just a straight ladder. ⁓ So how did it work for you? How did that road kind of change? ⁓ Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah. Yeah. So this is technically my fourth career. was, I do have a, like I mentioned, I have a master's degree in library science. And so I started in the oil and gas industry in the industry. I worked for an oil and gas services company for a while and I did technical research. So I worked with all of our geologists, geophysicists, metallurgical and electrical engineers as we built down hole tools for measuring hydrocarbons in the ground. So we would work for Exxon. Christine Courtney: Okay. Joy Brown Kirst: to measure what was there, tell you where to drill, and then they would drill. it was really interesting. So again, finding ⁓ is I jokingly say that my graduate degree is in finding stuff. It could people, ⁓ could be things, patents, was a lot of what I did. So that's how I ended up in the industry when I moved to Houston. I got a job working ⁓ at an oil services company as a special librarian doing technical research for those. So transitioned I didn't to stay in the oil and gas industry, not like that, because it's such a cycle that the guys that I've been working with who had been in the industry forever, it's not when I, if I get laid off, but when I get laid off, it's like a seven year cycle. I'm like, I can't do this for the rest of my life. I'm like 25 years old. This is crazy. So I transitioned into search and Hydrokin Struggles was looking for a researcher. So that was, again, I mean, I was just finding people this time instead of finding data, right? So it wasn't really that big of a leap. And I am much more of an outgoing person anyway. So it was an easy transition for me to, from just finding things to actually being on the phone and developing candidates for the consultants that I worked for. So that really wasn't a huge leap either, right? But I think the biggest thing that I took away from being, I was in executive search for all told 23 years. So it's like a, it's like a psychology degree, right? You just start to be able to read people really well, like know what's coming out of their mouth is true or less than true. embellishing. It's, it's, it's really interesting how you can read a room once you do it so much, like over and over and over again. Christine Courtney: Wow. Yes. Joy Brown Kirst: So that was interesting. I wasn't so much while I did everything in the oil and gas industry or ⁓ alternative energy, I did a lot of that too. So anything in ⁓ energy stream, it so much focusing on that industry. mean, ⁓ of being my deep knowledge, my deep knowledge is really people. So that's, I mean, that's skill you can take anywhere, really. I mean, moving from that into... ⁓ Christine Courtney: love that. Joy Brown Kirst: university and external relations and I was the director of corporate development and alumni relations for the business school. That's just, that's just. Christine Courtney: What made you go from executive search to that? That seems like a big leap too. Joy Brown Kirst: didn't on it, right? I just, went back to business school. So I was already going to business school and then Rice asked me to take that job or they ⁓ recruited into that job. And I decided to give like search a break. It had already been like almost 20 years and I needed a minute. And so ⁓ went back school and ⁓ they asked to do that job. And I found out that I am not a higher ed or not-profit. person, I'm not well suited to that job, unfortunately. was fun though, I enjoyed it. ⁓ that's again, that's people, developing people and understanding the human psyche, the difference between asking people for money ⁓ and dealing with the very emotional connection that alumni have to their alma mater can be touchy. ⁓ It be difficult. ⁓ Christine Courtney: ⁓ that's interesting. Joy Brown Kirst: It's interesting, I didn't expect that. I was like, it's a business school. Why are you so, like, why are you so emotional about this? But it is, it's a different relationship that you have with the school than, that you attended than just as, from a business capacity. It's very different. So that was fun. I mean, I had a good time enjoyed being at the school. I did have really long days, I was going to school and... Christine Courtney: Yeah. Right. Joy Brown Kirst: working there. So my office in the building, I'd get there at like seven o'clock in the morning. I'd leave at like 11 o'clock at night and then get up the next day and do it over again. Cause I'd meet with my team at night. it was, it was hard, but I did enjoy it. And that again, that people skills over into, to what I'm doing now. of just a lot of ⁓ marketing and understanding the connection that people have to their skin too. Christine Courtney: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. people. Joy Brown Kirst: Right, so the way I'm appealing to people is that this is a difficult time in your life and here's how we can make that time better. Doesn't need to make you younger, that makes me mad when I see that anti-aging bullshit is what I call it. ⁓ But speaking to them in a real way, that emotional connection, it's not all that dissimilar to what I was doing before. Christine Courtney: Hmm. interesting. Yeah. Thanks for spending time here on stepping into your leadership. I'd like to give a special shout out ⁓ to our podcast producer, Richard Francisco. ⁓ Check out our notes for any and if you wanna get anything out of this, go to our YouTube channel and please subscribe to Leadership Lab TV. If you heard something today, of course, that resonated with you, do something with it. Yeah. Is it? When you think about working with, like there's one thing of working with the clients, but working with your kind of colleagues and stuff, is that relatively the same wherever you are? Or did you find it very, very different? mean, it sounded like academia was one thing, like very different, or maybe it was the clients were different. But did you find that the, that there were a lot of things that translated in terms of like your kind of leadership skills or your kind of people skills that were different, not just for clients, but maybe for the colleagues? It's all about the choices that you make. It's what you say in conversations, how you show up in a moment. Share this episode with someone who's maybe starting a new job or stepping into a new level of leadership try one idea because it just might create some pretty powerful leadership ripple effects. Until time, keep stepping in. ⁓ that you're with. Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah, I mean, helped me a bit in translating. ⁓ Working academia is so different, even if you're in administration and you're not part of faculty. It's just the culture and the way it runs is completely different than when you're in the corporate world. ⁓ So it take a decent amount of... Christine Courtney: because the room changes when you do. Joy Brown Kirst: like adjustment time for me to kind of figure that out of how the way that you handle the people around you in academia as opposed to just getting to the point when you're in corporate. That's kind of what people want. like give me the like just me what I need to know and we'll move on. ⁓ Where very different ⁓ in There's a lot of, there's much more finessing. Not so much with the... ⁓ Christine Courtney: Yeah. lot more politics, I've heard. Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah, kind of, like territory, who's responsible for what, and people can get territorial about that, so you have to be careful. But clients in academia was different. That was like working, because those were corporate sponsors. I was just talking to the same corporate people I was talking to when I was in the energy industry, because Houston, energy, right? So just to get to do business development, get money from them to support students. Christine Courtney: I think it's interesting. Say. It's so interesting because when you think about your four careers, you really were talking about like kind of bigger companies that you were working in with like in a corporate structure, I suppose. ⁓ then you had academic place that you were working and now you're really like a startup. I mean, when you say, is like, ⁓ so like, what's that ⁓ like folks? Cause there's a lot of people I have to say ⁓ that work with companies. ⁓ Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah. Christine Courtney: And some of those young, some of those people, they're like, ⁓ that'd be so great to just have a startup. But there's a lot of, a lot of things you don't expect in that process, you know. Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah. And you really have to think about the fact that you've got to put your ego to the side and be willing to do anything. Right? You are chief bottle washer and your CEO and you're changing the printer ink and your tech support. ⁓ You have to do everything. It's a lot. I mean, you really have to be willing to just roll up your sleeves and just get it done. Right? And not be too precious about like, ⁓ no, I don't do that. Right? You don't have the same support. Christine Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. I heard, ⁓ went, was at a talk last night with, you won't believe this, but Anthony Scaramucci, you remember? ⁓ Mooch, yeah. And it was fast. He's actually, he's a ⁓ storyteller ⁓ like really interesting. And he was saying, he would say when he left Goldman, cause he came out of Harvard, went to Goldman. And then when he decided to leave Goldman and start his own thing, ⁓ he goes, when you start a business and when you start. Joy Brown Kirst: Really? How is that? Huh. Christine Courtney: startup, you get real familiar with the Pitney Bowes machine. And I just laugh because I'm like, only people like that would know that those old stamp machines, know, that he said Goldman, know, everybody would do everything. ⁓ have people to do stuff for you, but all of a sudden you're like, ⁓ God, I'm doing ⁓ ⁓ you have to be ready for that. Joy Brown Kirst: Yup. Yep. Hahaha Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you do. And I had the distinct advantage of the fact that my father is an entrepreneur, and so I worked with him when I was growing up. And then I got progressively smaller in my career. mean, ⁓ Atlas, which is the oil and services company that I worked for. It was huge. It was the third largest global oilfield services company. Now it's part of Baker Hughes, so it's gone anyway, and they're even bigger. then Hyderick is way small comparatively, right? I mean, we had like 1,500 people that worked in the company when I was there, and I joined in the ⁓ And then these two, ⁓ I for two boutique firms. So I actually started an office for in North America. I was the only American on the phone at one point. I was the only person in Houston or any office that we had in North America. So I learned that early, young, when I was younger working as a high school kid, working for my dad in the summers, but also then I just kept getting smaller and smaller. didn't have 20 people to do anything for me. So was, I was prepared for what I was walking into with this. ⁓ getting that as a taste of it's owned by somebody else, but yeah, it's a you're really kind of running the show in a space is it really helps you. You learn not to rely on everybody. You got to rely on yourself to do everything. Christine Courtney: You're still. feel like one of the things I do, I mentioned this in the beginning, one of the things I appreciate about you is that you are no nonsense. You kind of say what you think, you know, in a way that I really appreciate. find that you'll say, ah, I like this, I don't like this. And you know, you're okay. Did you find, were there any times like, have you always been that way? That confidence, cause it reads as confidence. Joy Brown Kirst: Mm-hmm. Christine Courtney: But have you always been that way or do you think that that came about at a certain point? Joy Brown Kirst: I think I've always been that way to a certain extent. My dad's from Brooklyn. He's ⁓ yes, dad is from Flatbush. From like in the ⁓ 30s was born in Flatbush, is, so he's pretty no-nonsense like that too. I think it's a personality trait. I think I'm more comfortable with it now ⁓ and a little less blunt about things, right? I'll speak my mind, but I don't have to be quite as, you know. Christine Courtney: Really? Joy Brown Kirst: aggressive about it. but ⁓ I know. And I don't think I've ever really lived like, I mean, it's kind of Texas though, too, isn't it? Right? I mean, people in Texas are like that. And then I worked with the Scots for such a long time. And when they came over and they were in Texas, they're like, we love this place. It makes me feel like I'm in Scotland. So they're like that too. So it just kept getting fed for me that this was an okay way to run. ⁓ So Christine Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. I think, you know, I still have a lot of women who are early in their career, especially say when we say, what's the thing you want to work on? in your leadership and a lot of them will say they're either their confidence or their executive presence or speaking up in meetings or being, you know, and it's really interesting to my heart feels for them because I want to figure out how to help in those ways. But it is tricky. You know, some of that for some of us, it comes easier and for others, it's harder. And there are some I mean, do you? Do you know any, you have any tricks up your sleeve for that, for those folks out there? Joy Brown Kirst: That's, think, you know, women are, they, they, don't do a good job of, you know, tooting our own horn, so to speak, right? I think that approaching ⁓ interactions people who ⁓ are you in whatever, however way they're above you. It's just to think about it as, right, we all are human and everybody puts their pants on the same way, right? ⁓ even when I was talking to, you know, I've ⁓ working for Hydrogen Struggle is just one of the biggest executive search firms ⁓ the world. And I was working all over the world, I did stuff over in ⁓ and Asia and South America ⁓ here and talking to, you know, I had CEOs of multi-billion dollar publicly traded companies as my clients. You can't be meek and sit in front of those guys and get their attention or get their, their, their confident in that you're going to do a good job for them. So speaking as a, as an associate, right? was developing candidates. So I'm on the phone with people. That's a great way to practice that. Right. You can be feeling like you're melting into a puddle in your office, but you're, you're on the phone. can't see any of that. So that's really helpful to kind of just practice, right? Just talking to people. Christine Courtney: That's interesting, yeah. Joy Brown Kirst: And really thinking about it, thinking that ⁓ person ⁓ me at one point, ⁓ They were young, because I was younger than almost everybody that I was talking to on the phone. You're talking to, you know, higher level executives like that. Most of them are 40s, 50s, 60s. ⁓ I was, I started in the industry at 26. So ⁓ totally different, right? That you feel that sort of power dynamic there. But, ⁓ know, they were you. They to do the same thing. And ⁓ you listen and you ask the right questions and you ask them in a way that I'm trying to learn from you too, they're much more open to tell you almost anything. I was much less threatening in that job, right? I was young and female. But asking lots of questions of them and going, help me understand this and just using different verbiage the way that you're talking to them really does help people go, well, here, let me help you, right? They're interested in helping you. You just have to approach it the right way. Christine Courtney: Yeah. I love what that, I love that that you call it a practice because I think some people think, ⁓ one day I'm just going to get it. You know, one day I'm just going to have confidence or one day I'm just going to have this presence. But I do think you're right. I think it is practice. And I love that tip practicing on the phone ⁓ you have to practice in person, because that's at least you have half of you can still look nervous, ⁓ you can practice how it says in your voice. They can't see you. Joy Brown Kirst: And that practice is helpful. Yeah, right. They can't see you. Now, there is a little bit more of a problem now, like this generation, like our kids age and a little bit older, nobody wants to get on the damn phone. They won't talk to anybody. And so they either do like Zoom calls and I'm like, it's kind of hard to practice like that. You could be shaking and they'll see it. a little harder. But I think it's like having that, the verbal skills, To carry on a conversation with somebody to. Christine Courtney: Yeah. Joy Brown Kirst: dig in and interview and ask for help and all those kinds of things are, it's kind of a dying skill that I think if somebody can develop now is only going to improve your ability to have that executive presence that you're looking for. Christine Courtney: Yeah, it's a differentiator for sure, right, if you can get it. How do you build, what ⁓ be your advice for folks ⁓ terms of how do you build credibility ⁓ you enter a field ⁓ people may or may not immediately know your background? So for ⁓ one of the things I think is interesting about your life is these pivots ⁓ you've had in your career. So when you go into a new ⁓ of it and you think, ⁓ I don't know anything about this field. Joy Brown Kirst: Mm-hmm. Christine Courtney: How do you build? How does one build their credibility in that world? Joy Brown Kirst: For me, I mean, I think it's different for everybody, honestly. mean, everybody has their, even when I was, as corollary to that, when I'd be training associates underneath me when I was a partner, when I was in search, I would have rotate around to everybody and sit in other associates and other partners' offices and listen to them on the phone and talk to people because you're going to take a little bit from me and a little bit from John and a little bit from Susan down the hall, ⁓ and then you're to make it your own, right? ⁓ And then you'll that confidence, you'll feel comfortable. with doing that. For me, my process in making a pivot like this was to a lot to everybody around me, but to do a lot of research, ⁓ That's the way I internalize that stuff, is ⁓ reading everything I possibly can about the industry, about things that ⁓ I know anything about. And I may not do anything with it, but I can talk about it because I've read a lot and I've talked to people. And that I think is incredibly helpful when you're talking to people, even though you're like, look, I'm not from the beauty industry. I am a vast consumer of said industry. I don't always have been, but I ⁓ do my research and I dig in on a product. And I know that can be daunting for some people, but taking it small chunks at a time, start somewhere, right? Find somebody. And again, with talking to people and asking them their advice is all. Christine Courtney: Yeah. Joy Brown Kirst: Find a group to join of other people who've been in the industry for a while and just listen. ⁓ Christine Courtney: love that. Listen, listen and research from our library studies ⁓ major. I love that. Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah, I do say to my kids, and I've said this to them a million times, is like, God gave you two ears and one mouth so you can listen twice as much as you talk. And that will get you somewhere. Like you'll learn something if you listen twice as much as you talk. Christine Courtney: Yeah. Yeah, asked this what we ⁓ a new program yesterday that we do every year at this one company and we ask the time and that probably now over the years of working with lots of whether it's kids or it's adults, ⁓ you name ⁓ We ask what are the best leaders you've ever worked for and ⁓ what the and traits that they exhibit, right? And then we asked the worst ones too. We don't ask for the names, just the traits and behaviors. And without a doubt, almost always, and it happened again yesterday that the first trait that someone will raise their hand to say is listening. It's fascinating. You know? Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah. It's a perfect way to get people on board with whatever it is that you are trying to convince them to do. you listen to them, ⁓ if you don't go in the direction that they'd like you to go, if they've expressed their opinion on something, you've listened to them and you've taken that under advisement from them. And maybe you've incorporated a little bit into whatever decision you're going to make, but you still listen to them. And that is one, a sign of respect. ⁓ And two, it just brings them into the fold, right? I mean, think is a leadership skill that every senior leader should use. It's helpful. Christine Courtney: Yeah, and, and practice over and over because, you know, we kind of go back and forth. did a listening course with a bunch of CEOs last and I was amazed at how bad we all were at it. I was like, ⁓ my God, this is incredible. Anyway, I wanted to you too, because I want to make sure we have time for it is, ⁓ you know, happen to know a little bit in your background. You did growing up. Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah. Yeah Christine Courtney: You did a lot of, you, you did performing arts, right? You did theater, you did some stuff like that. ⁓ do you think that you were? Okay. So you were all of, you were a triple threat. Did you dance too? Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah. Yeah, I was a singer then too. Yeah. Yeah. No, not an actor and I'm not a dancer, but I can sing. I mean, I've done some musical theater kind of stuff, right? I was never like the lead because I am not an actor, but I'm a singer. ⁓ I can easily be that chorus back there. No problem. ⁓ Christine Courtney: Okay. Yeah, yeah. So how did that, how do you think that impacted or aided you now in what you do? Joy Brown Kirst: ⁓ it definitely gives you confidence, right? I mean, to be on stage, ⁓ I think some of it is just, I mean, you know this too, cause you're an actress, right? It's this personality trait, right? I mean, some people are just made for it and some people clearly are not. And, ⁓ yeah, I think, and then just practicing again, practice, practice, practice, right? Then you don't get like people are do you get nervous when you're on stage? I'm like, not anymore. used to, ⁓ not anymore. Cause now it's not a big deal. Christine Courtney: Yeah. this. Mm-hmm. Joy Brown Kirst: So that practicing, even if you're not, everybody's gonna have to present at some point in their career, right? Or even if it's just a small group of people and it might make you wanna pass out, but ⁓ it just makes it less daunting. Christine Courtney: Yeah, I think that's a great tip for folks. And if you, we often avoid the things that we're not good at. And so we don't want to practice those things. We'd much rather practice the things that we're good at. And I think it's a really good kind of almost like, what is it like cognitive behavioral therapy? Like put yourself in situations where you like to your point where you sign up for a class where you know, at the end, you have to sing a song on stage or where you are going to do standup comedy or where you're going to just have to Joy Brown Kirst: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Christine Courtney: you know, a speech or do a class where you have to encourage in every meeting to say, I'm gonna say one thing. I'm gonna find one moment to say something, ⁓ if can, because I do agree with that is so important, that part of it. Any other thing that kind of served you, you think? ⁓ Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Christine Courtney: kind of that you learned early on, like some story of where you either messed up and you thought, Ooh, this is, this is hard. Or where you thought this is an important moment for me either way. Joy Brown Kirst: I do remember right not long after I got into search, I guess I had been in for a couple of years and I was still an associate. I think I was senior associate at that point. That, you know, back when we still got faxes and people would send us ⁓ resumes. They'd send us our resumes, but we all like had different specific industries that we were focused on. And the partner that I worked with, we did chemicals and energy. He came from the count. He worked for OxiCAM when he was in the industry. And, you ⁓ stuff come through on the fax machine. If you saw something that was more fit for you ⁓ than else. And if it was an unsolicited resume, unless they had like, this is for John Griffin, please give it to you on the cover. Then you take it down to him because he was the energy guy. I took a resume off the, often it was just an unsolicited one and somebody like had a hissy fit over it. Like like, what are you like, ⁓ you gonna, you were gonna bring it to me anyway if you got to it first. But I like had, I mean, I had a big like knock on the head for that for some ⁓ silly but ⁓ I stand up for us. ⁓ for it, me, I didn't take it to my, I mean, I told my partner that I worked with, was like, here's what's going on, but you know, I don't need you to get involved, I'll take care of it. And I did, and I kind of had it out with the associate of that team, like, were you gonna use it? No, no, I wasn't gonna use it, I probably would have brought it to you. Well then why are we fighting about this? This is just ridiculous. And I think just ⁓ having ⁓ conviction what you've done, I mean, don't go stepping out of line doing something like. ⁓ stealing something from somebody. If they had their name on it, then stealing, right? I get it. I just learned, it was so early on in my career there, but I was willing to stand up for what I knew wasn't, I didn't do anything wrong. I wasn't stepping on anybody's toes and I'm gonna not go down the hall, talk to dad and have him take care of it, that took care of it myself. And I think that they appreciated it too. Like they don't want to get involved in that nonsense for, ⁓ you it's silly. Why bother? Christine Courtney: Mmm. I do. So you had to have a difficult conversation, right? You had to say like, yeah, did you, how fast did that happen or did you have to go home? Was there a day in between or did it happen all pretty much in the same day? Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah. Yeah. No, was all pretty... I mean, I had the resume... It was a day before they found out that we had the resume, that we ended up with it. It wasn't like a secret. We were talking about it, right? We talk about those kinds of things at meetings too, like, oh, this resume came through, blah, blah, blah, you know, that kind of thing. But yeah, it was literally like the next day once they figured it out, they like had a fit about it. I didn't think there was anything wrong. I hadn't really thought about it. So it wasn't really a big deal. This is just kind of the daily MO. Christine Courtney: Yeah. So this is my question, did you do it again? Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah, but never like I took it to him like by the way Here it is Just just want to make sure that you didn't want this guy That's a hundred percent chemicals that you work in downstream oil and gas ⁓ Christine Courtney: But here you go! You Joy Brown Kirst: So, but yeah, was a fine working relationship with those people afterwards. We all worked together fairly well and I don't know, maybe it was a shitty day for them and they just decided to get something, be in their bonnet that they wanted to be pissy about. I don't know. But having difficult conversations and standing up for yourself early on, when you can do that and people won't plow over you then, right? And that's what will happen. They'll keep pushing you if they know that they can, if you're gonna kind of wither away and not say anything. Christine Courtney: And that is practice too, right? You practice to be able to say that in a way where you're like, am I still not just being completely defensive about feedback, but am I able to go, wait a minute here, ⁓ and ask, were you going to need this person and have a back and forth that I think is really important for people to have. What I see happen more often than not is that no one has that conversation with the person. They're always, ⁓ you know, might be bitching behind each other's back or something, you know? And so I think, Joy Brown Kirst: ⁓ sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Christine Courtney: What was great about what you did, two things really great as a, is to be able to have the confidence to say, tell your boss, okay, this is going on, just so you know, and I can handle it. I mean, what a, what a message you are sending to your boss in that moment, right? That you've got this. And then to have the guts to be like, no, I'm going to have this conversation. And I think everybody can learn from that. You know, it is that, kind of practice that gets you better and better for those, those things. Joy Brown Kirst: Yeah, sure. It doesn't have to be contentious and holding the grudge. And mean, I'm pretty good at like just moving on, right? Just that's not that big of a deal. There are other things that I could be upset about and this is not one I need to choose to be upset about. Right. So yeah, having learning how to have difficult conversations, I think the big takeaway early on in your career will only help you in the long run. Christine Courtney: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Joy, thank you so much for coming on and all of you out there. Check out her website. She has some really wonderful products, especially for anyone going through what did you call it? Hormonal change. Joy Brown Kirst: hormonally challenged skin, right? If your skin is changing a bunch, it's hormonally based, ⁓ this can be helpful for you. Christine Courtney: What if... That's a great idea. So that's for a lot of us out there. So ⁓ it a go. Enjoy. Thank you so much for joining us and ⁓ look forward to seeing more about what you do. ⁓ Joy Brown Kirst: Thank you. Thanks so much. appreciate your time.