Negotiating with Ukrainians: Relationship First, Contract Second | Part 2

Dmytro: Hi, I'm Dmytro Shvets, your host at the Start Global Insights, where I interview experts from different countries about local business secrets and international expansion experience. We are back with part two of our miniseries on Ukrainian business culture with Maryna Starodubska . Maryna is a cross-cultural interaction consultant and an adjunct professor at the Kyiv Mala Business School. She has over 20 years of experience in employee relations, culture, reputation management, and crisis communication. In the previous episode, we've already covered the foundational identity of Ukrainian business, and in this episode we will dive deeper into the specific art of negotiating with Ukrainians. Proceeding with our topic about the Ukrainian culture and, uh, going more practical into already interaction with Ukrainians. So when, uh, foreign companies going to agree on something, they are going to negotiate some, um, terms and, uh, potential cooperation, vision and, and strategy. I often see that the style of negotiation, the style of uh, talking is very different to Eastern European, even. And, uh, very different to Northern European or Western European. And, um, I would like to maybe reveal today some, uh, points. Why is that what, uh, the foreign companies should, uh, pay attention to and understand what is behind this behavior? That, uh, is, um, uh, within this negotiation process, how do you feel about it? Maryna: Great. I think that negotiations are one of the most culturally specific business dealing formats, and it can be confusing if we're not aware of how different cultures manifest in that process because exactly the same words and actions during negotiations can be considered affective and offensive. In two different cultures at the same time. Dmytro: True, true. Uh, we've recently been, uh, talking about, uh, Dutch, uh, business and, uh, uh, even Dutch, uh, themself. Uh, they consider themself sometimes being perceived as blunt. Yeah. Uhhuh very direct and, uh, in the same, uh, time. Ukrainians are also considering them as direct. Uh, but not thinking that they are blunt, uh, in this case. And, uh, another thing that I just remembered, when we started to sell our services like 20 years, so almost 20 years ago, to Nordic countries, uh, it was enough to, um, agree with them, uh, very strict. What are the outcomes, what are the expectations? And then just to describe them into email. And that would be already the agreement. Yeah. So you just fix it, uh, in the written form. And then they say that, just send us the invoice and that's it. Mm-hmm. Uh, and in Ukraine with my Ukrainian clients, the matter of agreement of written contract is very important. That, uh, should go through lawyers and then director, and then again lawyers, and, uh, at the same time. It is not being followed all, all the time, so strictly. And what, what is the situation with this and why is this head, is this happening with Ukrainians? Maryna: Well, there is a, there is, um, a joke, which is only partially a joke in Ukraine, which goes the strictness of Ukrainian laws. Is compensated by the non-mandatory manner of compliance. Um, firstly, it's important to understand that Ukraine negotiates on something called hybrid circumstances agreement. Uh, what that means is there are three ways to reach agreement when you negotiate mm-hmm. In a manner of cultural dimension. So Nordic Europe. English speaking, German speaking. Uh, Baltic cultures negotiate on something that is called fixed circumstances agreement, which means a, a contract, be it an email, or be it something else. In the written form is a framework for cooperation. And it's ceiling. Ceiling. So you do what's in a contract and no one expects you to go overboard of what's in a contract. And a contract is ironclad, which means you don't break it. You don't bend it, you do not creatively interpret it, or you can try, but that's not gonna improve your relationship with your vis-a-vis. Now there's another polar, uh, approach. It's called, um, flexible. Changing circumstances agreement. This is Latin America, Southern Europe, Africa, except South Africa. Some countries in Southeast Asia. Now that is when a contract is, basically, it's about red lines, which you don't cross. But inside of it, there's a lot of negotiation going on. So if you are working on flexible or changing circumstances agreement, it means you sign a contract, which is very general, and then real negotiation begins. On how are you doing things? Now, there's a whole chunk of cultures. A lot of them are Eastern Central Europe. Uh, some Asian cultures as well are where Ukraine is hybrid circumstances, agreements. So hybrid means there's definitely respect towards the written, written fixation of obligations. The reason is very simple. Going to court in Ukraine is the least desirable outcome. When you have a problem dealing, resolving things on, on terms of reciprocity is always more desire. But should this be impossible, the contract should be admissible in court. This is why. Such attention is paid to it because there are peculiarities in how all legislation works. But if your partnership is productive, there are exceptions which can be made. There are flexible approaches which can be taken and to to, to some contract clauses. So this is, this is why trust is important. Because if the cooperation has been properly managed and properly established, so Ukrainian side and the foreign side had time to get acquainted formed, trust for relationship, and then sign the contract, this cooperation has a lot more chances to succeed. Then the cooperation where contract was signed first without any relationship, and then some attempts to rectify that contract. Begin. Dmytro: Yeah, so this, this relates to what we have discussed in our previous series, uh, about the. Uh, Ukrainian business culture and, uh, this trust issue. So if we'd, and because this is also interesting, uh, in terms of copywriting with, uh, Nordic countries, for example, they trust you upfront until, uh, in my experience, yeah. I dunno how it is mm-hmm. In, in the, um, science, but in my experience, they trust you upfront with, um, um, quite good project. But then you should. Comply with this project. So you, you should, uh, meet the promises that you have made and, uh, uh, meet, maybe even exceed expectations. And, uh, then you are in this trust, uh, uh, group, uh, of, uh, potential or current partners. But if you break this, yeah, so then, then the trust is almost, uh, impossible to, um, get back. And, uh, in Ukraine, what I feel usually is this, uh, that you are distrusted at once. Uh, forever until you prove that you are, um, you can be trusted and you have this honor to be trusted. So this presumption of guiltiness, uh, exists and, and, and, and does it, does it comply also to international negotiations? So yes. From your experience, yeah. How Ukrainians behave in this, do they trust the, the outer party, um, Maryna: Eastern Europe to which Ukraine belongs? Does not advance trust all societies where institutions have been and continue to be dysfunctional fully or partially. Uh, societies where trust does not exist. At the beginning of a business relationship, there's nothing to advance. If you think of trust as money, distrustful cultures have no money in the trust account when the relationship business relationship begins. This is why the personal relationship, this is why they're getting to know this is why the. Kind of this resonance and getting to know your vis-a-vis people and things like that so that some trust money is put proverbially into that trust account. Nordic Europe, uh, some countries in Western Europe, they advance trust because they trust you from the beginning because these are trustful societies. And you, you described it very, very precisely, um, Nordic Europe for example. They trust their vis-a-vis upfront. Until vis-a-vis breaks that trust and if they do, trust is gone and getting it back, uh, will be very difficult, sometimes impossible. So this adjust the approaches that need reconciliation for. From Ukrainian side, what we must understand if you're dealing with a trustful culture. It's a mistake to think they're naive because this is what our, our business people frequently think, oh, they're so naive. They trust that from the beginning. No, they're not. It's a test. And if you fail the test, trust is gone. Mm-hmm. And there's no retaliation. So from the Ukrainian side, be very attentive to requests, deadlines. So if someone asks you something, information. If you promise something, deliver because this is a trust test. If you're a foreign vis-a-vis, consider that you're dealing with a distrustful culture. Ukrainians don't dislike you, you just not there yet. In terms of trust, you need to get there and there are steps to do it, which your Ukrainian side will be happy to take with you. Dmytro: Yeah. Like, uh, tribe to be initiated into the tribe. Yes. So to, to be in this stripe, uh, and to initiated, uh, by communication and, uh, building this trust was through cultural. Exchange. Yeah. Or some personal information. Yeah. How to do, how to do that. What, what is the advice, uh, to a foreign company to when, when they start negotiating with Ukrainians and they start ag agreeing on terms, on, on, uh, clauses of the agreement. Yeah. What do, do they, should they consider and do before that? Maryna: Well, uh, it's important that our foreign partners keep in mind that Ukrainians negotiate. Relationship, first contract, second contract outta relationship. From that stems the approach to bargaining. Ukrainians don't do problem oriented bargaining with the holistic bargaining. So let's say a partner from Netherlands is negotiating with a prospective partner in Ukraine, Netherlands does problem oriented bargaining. What that means is. Point by point in detail, nuanced, granular aspects of cooperation. I discussed very frequently in the meeting there will be executives, lawyers will be present and, and, and the discussion will be very, very granular. Now, to Ukrainians, that is confusing because Ukrainian does holistic bargaining. Holistic bargaining always has two stages. First is when decision makers meet and they agree on principles, red lines, who does what they agree on big things. That is meeting number one. Contract or granular details are done in meeting number two. By next level of managers, including lawyers Dmytro: or in different tracks. Yeah. Of meetings. Maryna: Yeah. Or in parallel tracks. But they're not done in the same meeting because trust needs to be billed first and uh, the decision needs to be made to proceed to details. After trust is formed. Dmytro: I think that in most cases, Ukrainians are more as, as we also, uh, discussed previously, uh, more people oriented. Yes, they are people connected and that makes it difficult to deal with, with this, uh, conflict situations within, uh, negotiations. Yeah, because we. We perceive, uh, it is like a personal assault and not, not about the, the case, uh, of it. And that's why this, uh, first line of negotiation and trust building between the decision makers is needed in Ukrainian culture to, uh, understand that it is okay to trust the other party and not be in, in conflict, or at least try not to be in conflict in, uh, later stages. And if there will be a conflict in later stages, then. As we already created this trust, we can deal with it easily. Uh, understanding that there is no threat behind this words or, or actions. Maryna: Well, there is, um, there are several kind of cultural dimensions that can help us understand that first of all, Ukrainians are an Affective culture. A Affective, affective means emotionally expressive Netherlands on the other hand, or Norway or Finland or Sweden, and neutral cultures. In a neutral culture, the more serious the business situation is, the more reserved you are emotional. In neutral cultures, controlling emotions is a default requirement. Of being a professional Dmytro: and skill, uh, being taught? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Maryna: Yes. A professional, especially high level decision maker who, who articulately emote a negotiation process in Norway will be looked at with wonder whether, whether they need help, um, in affective cultures. Ukraine, Italy, Spain, Romania, uh, Hungary in, in affective cultures. Emotion is one of the tools used in negotiation and it's also a signal. There is a reason why Ukrainians do not understand American small talk, and they do not understand why Americans smile to strangers. It's because. US is mostly neutral. Ukraine is strongly affective, meaning that in an affective culture you smile to people you like. Yeah. Emotion has a direct meaning, affective culture. Does not use emotion as a mask neutral culture does. Uh, for example, if, um, our Dutch Danish Australian vis-a-vis are smiling at the meeting, they're polite. It does not mean they like you. affective culture, uh, does a serious face when they're polite and smile comes when trust or whatever emotion is there... Dmytro: a real feeling? Maryna: yes. Real feeling. So Ukrainians are emotionally expressive. That means, uh, in negotiations, emotions will be read. So we're looking at the partner and try to gauge what the partner thinking and we're gonna. Emote ourselves to, to signal to the partner what we're thinking. And another important thing, uh, we are also confrontation because. Uh, the Spanish, for example, are emotional, but non-confrontational. In business dealings, life is different. It's a different matter. Ukrainians are emotional and confrontational, which means we, uh, we express disagreement. Frustration and refusal bluntly on the spot and in a judgmental manner. Judgmental means we're gonna use adjectives, we're gonna describe it. I, I'll, I'll give you an example. We had an interesting case, uh, in, with one of the clients where a Ukrainian uh, manager was negotiating with Austrian manager and Austrian colleague. Describe the proposal they had and asked the Ukrainian vis-a-vis, so what do you think about it? And he said, Ukrainian side said, Hmm, I'm not sure I like it. The Austrian side looked very surprised and they ask the following. May I ask on which, on what grounds have you reached that conclusion? So Ukrainian side gave a judgmental answer. Like dislike? Yeah. Mm-hmm. As affective, confrontational culture, Austria as a neutral, non-confrontational culture, expected facts and figures. Mm-hmm. You don't have to like the proposal, this is what negotiation is about, but saying facts, for example. Potentially, this could be a good start for conversation. I would suggest that we talk clause one and clause three in greater detail. In a separate meeting meeting, that would be something a neutral, non-confrontational culture would understand. Dmytro: Yeah. So that's, uh, that means that, uh, for Austrian, it is, uh, useless information, whether you like it or not. Uh, you need to understand you, you don't like it. So what, yeah. So what, what is, uh, the assert the outcome of this, uh, uh, saying? I also, when, when I teach negotiations, you, I teach negotiations based on Harvard methodology of interest based negotiations. And, uh, uh, when I analyze and when I work with Ukrainian teams, in most cases they act, uh, and I do simulations. So I, I do role plays and, uh, in the simulations, the role plays, they mostly act, uh, even after hearing about the interest based negotiation approach and, uh, that you should find interest behind. The positions. These, they are still based on position based negotiations. So this is my position and I like it, or I don't like it. Yeah. So that's, that's my approach and you can take it or my way or highway. And, and yes, in very, very often the, this is no like place to, to, to deal with or to negotiate about and, uh, which is created in most cases, like. Just two days ago, I had the simulation with IT companies and IT salespeople were negotiating with their potential client and they started the negotiation with the phrases that are very concrete and very useful, but the tone. Of negotiation was judgemental. It's like you don't understand that uhhuh, we have that and that and that rules and you don't understand that the market is changed. Uhhuh, and, and, and from the very beginning, they ruined the whole negotiations because the other party being also Ukrainian, but playing not Ukrainian, they also reacted emotionally like. What do you talking, what are you talking about that I don't understand. How could you think that? I do not understand. So you, uh, threatened my status? Yeah. So you, you showed to my other, uh, colleagues that I am not, um, informed about that, which is also building this position based, um, based negotiation approach. Which does lead to very efficient, uh, negotiation, uh, outcome. Maryna: Yeah. Well, um, negotiations as a process, as a phenomenon is viewed, are viewed differently in different cultures. I'm sure that our listeners have heard phrases like win-win. Win lose zero sum. Well, um, Ukraine negotiates based on zero sum or win-lose approach. Yeah. To us, we're confrontational. And distrustful to us, we're going into negotiation, to to prevail over the other side. To win. Yes. Uh, and accepting the other side proposal, no matter how logical is a loss. Because it's not ours. Mm-hmm. Um, cultures that negotiate on a different approach. Uh, not zero sum. Yeah. But like we call it colloquially win-win, meaning that you are looking for common solution work, mutually workable solution. And it's not about winning. It's about. Arriving at a solution together. And, uh, again, Scandinavia, Nordic Europe, Baltics are like that. Israel is also win lose. Poland is win lose, um, Dmytro: Poland. Yeah. I, I, I think I haven't, uh, thought about that. I, I saw that Poland is more, more towards this interest based, uh, approach. Yeah. Maryna: It's, but, but style wise, it's win lose. Mm. Um, most centralist in Europe, with some exceptions are win lose in negotiation orientation. And it's not a bad thing, but it's, it's a hint. Uh, for example, if we have partners from Nordic Europe coming to negotiate with Ukrainians, it's important. To, um, look for mutual interest, right? So that the acceptance of a proposal doesn't look like a loss, but it looks like a benefit for Ukrainian side. It's important that you do not use judgmental phrases. You do not say to partners, things like you don't know, you don't understand. We're gonna tell you how it works, things like that. And you don't. You don't defend you. You counter propose. So instead of saying, I disagree, you can say, I can see the logic in your proposal. It's based on this and this. How that logic works. In my case, there are certain circumstances, this and this, which. Make this logic applicable. This is why, and this is why I suggest this is a normal, normal, good, workable disagreement, but it's not natural to Ukrainians. We don't disagree that way if given freedom. But that's the way to disagree with cultures that negotiate on win-win, not on win-lose approach. Dmytro: Yeah. I always, uh, thought, uh, that this is kind of an influence of the east. Actually the post-Soviet, uh, region feels like that, uh, maybe because that is also de Poland, uh, is in this circle because they were under the Soviet, uh, influence for quite a long time. But even more, it is, it feels like more oriental style of negotiation is, is, uh, present in Ukrainian style. Hmm. For example, the, well, this win lose approach and also the, the approach of bargaining, for example, in my case, yeah. My, my experience when I deal with, uh, Swedish business or Finnish business, and I say that my services consist of this and this and this and that, and the cost is like that. And they like, okay, either we have this budget or we don't have this budget, but we understand that this is your service cost and that's it. In Ukraine, they expect that you will put a price on your services with the discount in your hat, and the discount should be quite big one to have this dance of negotiation or bargaining, uh, about the price. And in some cases this is, uh, even like, um. Entertainment. This is why I perceive it like Oriental, because on Oriental Bizarre or market open market, it is a style of communication to bargain. Yeah. If you do not bargain, then you don't respect the buyer or the seller. And to some extent I feel that in Ukrainian side as well. What, what do you think about it? Maryna: Oh, well, uh, we're not extremely oriental that way because Turkey definitely bargains a lot. More than us. Israel bargains a lot tougher than we do, but in, um, in Ukraine, it's, it's more connected with this, um, hybrid negotiation agreement. So here's the formal conditions, but let's agree on something, something. Something. And, you know, there's this exceed expectation thing. Yeah. In, um, again, in, uh, most Western Europe, English speaking, German speaking, Nordic cultures Netherlands contract is a ceiling. It's a maximum of what you're expected to deliver in Ukraine. It's minimum, minimum. Uh, Ukrainians consider a good service. To be above what's in the formal proposal, and this is where negotiation comes in when all the discounts. Discount is somehow perceived as a sign of loyalty. Mm-hmm. Or a sign of dedication. And this is something to consider because not in all cultures, it's habitual to give discounts at the beginning of, of business relationships. Dmytro: Um, in some cases I also hear that, uh. Uh, position that, um, okay, so the, the agreement is in place so you should, uh, rely on, on some, uh, clauses of that. But, uh, if you are doubting about the, uh, promises that, uh, people are given in Ukraine, they may maybe offended. Uh, because you kind of offended their owner. Mm-hmm. Because they, they feel that if they thought something they promised, then it is a matter of owner that they won't break it. And you don't need any written suggestions. Uhhuh, in the contract that they won't break the. Uh, agreement that you, uh, have made with them, which may, uh, be not perceived by some, uh, foreign company because you need to have this, uh, at least, uh, formal, uh, agreement to, to deal with that. Maryna: Well, we have actually have both. On the one hand, we are very meticulous about agreements, the lawyers that, again, there is a saying in Ukrainian to eat your brain, eat somebody's brain with a spoon. This is what a lawyer does. To a lawyer when they negotiate on a contract. Um, so, and on the one, on the one hand, we have this really, really meticulous approach to formal documentation. If you are a company that's mid-size or bigger, if you're a small company, all kinds of things can happen up to having no contract. So there's a lot of variety there. On the other hand, when the highest decision makers are meeting. What you described can happen. The the situation, you offended me because you asked about something. Middle managers are not gonna have the problem because they're not decision makers. So each of them is trying to get the information to cover all the bases and to make sure that their sides interests are protected. But if two highest level people. Are talking and they must have a personal relationship to proceed. This is where the status comes in. And this is where, you know, if I give my word, I give my word. Dmytro: Yeah. I also, I, I remember we had a case with Argentinian, uh, client. Uh, they were looking for a partner in Ukraine, uh, in agricultural field. And, uh, uh, we have kind of made a selection and due diligence and selected a part, a very good partner for them. And then, um, the, the project from our side, like consultants were closed and then we said, uh, goodbye to our client. And then within one, um. Period of time. So something like half a year that the Argentinians are coming to us again and then saying that, uh, this partner is not okay, so we, we should, uh, change the partner and well, why, what's, what's going on? Are they bad in, uh, reselling your product here or, or dealing with you? And they said that, well, uh, they. Not communicating with us. They do not tell anything. And then we just, this, uh, got to this Ukrainian partner and asked, what, what's going on? Is it the bad situation on the market? Uh, do you sell good? And they said, we sell wonderful. The product is amazing. The demand is great. We sell so many goods that we have already bought from the Argentinian partner, and we have tested that and, and made the warehouse in Ukraine. Everything is perfect. And then on the question why you are not talking to your partner? Why do not, uh, you tell them this story, they say like, why should we, nothing bad happened. So if, if something bad would happen, then we would connect our partner, but everything is good. Why to bother? Maryna: Yeah. This is a very, uh, a very, uh, illustrative case of how Ukrainians view feedback, uh, feedback. In our culture is firmly associated with criticism. Uh, and uh, just like you said, if something's bad, we're gonna tell you about it. Something's good. We're not gonna, um, and um, this is called updating. So for Ukrainian side, it's very important to reg agree on regular updates, agree on the form of updates, and update your respective vis-a-vis about what's happening. So that everyone is comfortable, you know, about the partnership and its results and its outcomes, uh, and it this not telling anything, saying it's, it's very peculiar because in our culture, as you will know, if you are praising somebody. Uh, you immediately considered to be, uh, biased. Biased means unreliable. My biased means not objective, not trustworthy. So we are very apprehensive about praising somebody outside our trusted circle. Uh, and, uh. Uh, and another thing, uncertainty avoidance and lack of planning because we never had the luxury to plan. Do not jinx it. Money, like silence, ation. True. It's, it's, it's another approach. We are very apprehensive. About saying things are going well, especially in business because our business climate hasn't been exactly predictable. To say, to put it mildly, Dmytro: do not, do not show that you have, uh, wealth, uh, because the wealth will be taken away Maryna: or success. Dmytro: Yeah. Yeah. True. Good. Um, one more thing I, I wanted to ask. We have this, um, high sense of urgency as we, we need to do and to achieve, uh, everything now. And, uh, that's why. Ukrainians are very reluctant to wait. Yes, that, that's the expectation, especially now during the war time. Um, how to behave with that. So how, what to consider, what to understand from the foreign company and, uh, what to do with that. Maryna: But again, because we are short term oriented, expediency of dealings of service, provision of everything is important because tomorrow may never come. Oh, God knows what's gonna happen tomorrow. But if you're talking about a partnership that requires certain steps to be completed before it happens, it's important to be clear that this step takes this much time because, so we're not just silent. The other side is going bananas. What's going on? So just say, this step takes two weeks because this and this and this and these processes are happening. We would need these documents from you and these meetings, okay? Mm-hmm. Uh, another important thing is that we do not, it's a growth point for us. Ukrainians, we frequently. Underestimate the importance of planning because we consider that planning is something that is set in concrete. While planning can be flexible, and especially for Nordic cultures, btic cultures, Netherlands, German speaking cultures, English speaking plan, when no planning is happening and somebody is running somewhere saying, saying, ah, we're gonna figure it out on the way. That is not a sign of a serious partnership. So for the Ukrainian side, it's important to dedicate time to proper flexible scenario based planning. It's gonna help, it's gonna save you a lot of time if and when something happens. Dmytro: Maybe the last question then to you, um, about the negotiation, uh, from your experience and I, I know that you have consulted many companies. What are the typical mistakes, uh, that are done by foreign companies entering Ukraine in terms of negotiating with Ukrainian partners? Maryna: First of all, the decision maker part. Okay, not sending a decision maker, not learning about the country speaking in Soviet Union stereotypes confusing us with Russia trying to speak Russian. Do Ukrainians as a default language. Uh, it's better to speak your own language and have a translator. This will be more, more appropriate. Um, or English at least. Yeah, well, well, partners from a non-English speaking culture. Right? Yeah. Um, another, the, not it's, it's not like a mistake, but maybe. Lack of consideration. Mm. Try to understand, and this is what I advise to Ukrainian side simultaneously. Try to understand where the person is coming from. Why, why the person is acting this way. Ukrainians are not angry or aggressive. They're confrontation. There's a difference. Um. We're not, um, unreliable. We're distrustful when trust is formed. We are very reliable. So just kind of try to ask open questions, read up. Uh, it's gonna ease. The negotiation so much and it's gonna shorten your time to market that way. Dmytro: Okay. So to sum up first, invest in trust building activities. Yeah. To create this, um, field when you can then agree on anything and then be transparent. In this already trusted field about your expectations and your processes and how it is dealing, how you are dealing with the contract on your side, what is the expectation that, uh, Ukrainians will deal on their side? Uh, talks through, uh, the communication rules yeah, that you expect, uh, from them, some updates and, uh, this is normal in your culture. And, uh, uh, then, um, try to fix some points in, into legal framework. But, uh, be ready. That, uh, these are quite flexible and, uh, in the trust field you can discuss exceptions. You have, uh, this, uh, situations and, uh, remember that Ukrainians are affective and emotional. Uh, so, uh, if you misunderstood something, then it's better to ask the confirming. Question, like, do I understand? Correct. That you, you just meant something like that or not. And that will be in the, again, if you already build the trust, that will be formal and normal to ask these questions and to clarify, uh, whether that was, uh, offensive assault or, or just the, uh, way that Ukrainians behave and, uh. I think this, uh, will help you to make business with Ukrainians. Maryna: Yeah, that is true. Dmytro: Thank you, Maryna. Thank you for this conversation and for, for your knowledge. Uh, uh, maybe, uh, a few words where people can find you. What is the better, uh, the best approach to contact you if they would need, uh, to get some advice from you on, on, on some other cultures or on Ukrainian culture? Maryna: Well, the easiest way you open your AI interface and you type Maryna, that's the easiest laziest way to do it. I'm on Facebook, I'm on LinkedIn, and I have a blog on substack tlfrd.substack.com, and there's a lot of materials there and my contacts are open. Facebook, LinkedIn, ai. So whatever suits you, you can find me there. Thank Dmytro: you. 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