How to sell sweets to Japan? A story of a brave Ukrainian sweets producer. Part 2.

Speaker A: When I teach international expansion in business schools or consult clients, I always stress the importance of rigorous preparation and a systematic approach to selling goods or services abroad. That there is no magic wand to guarantee your international sales success. However, as with any rule, there are exceptions. In the second part of my interview with the courageous Ukrainian candy producer, LOL and Pop, its founder and CEO, Olene Tokar, shares a rather magical story of how they began selling in Japan. She reveals how their, uh, prior investments in product quality finally paid off, how many tests are necessary to enter the Japanese market, and how crucial flexibility and speed are for the successful international expansion. If you missed the first part of our interview where Olena shares her, uh, inspiring story of building an international business, you can find it on the START Global Insights podcast. The that you can listen on M. Spotify, Apple Podcast, YouTube or other podcast platforms. 1, 2, 3, 4. Hi, I'm Dmytro Shwiec, your host at the Start Global Insights, where I interview experts from different countries about local business secrets and international expansion experience. And now for the miracle.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, and in terms of the miracle, uh, we took part, uh, uh, in the ISM exhibition in early February 2024. For us it was. What country in Germany? It was in Cologne. So for us it was first time being like exhibitors there. Before that I visited, um, this exhibition from 2017. And it was uh, one of my dreams to be an exhibitor there because it's the biggest, um, uh, trade fair for Swedes. And uh, for me it was like, wow, wow. I'm here standing with my small business, like presenting my products. I was so happy at that moment. And uh, during the trade fair, uh, we had a lot of different contacts and um, I assumed that maybe uh, we would have a distributor from Germany because it was in Germany. And um, like we went to some clients, uh, that were like, interested.

Speaker A: Uh, but then on the show. Yes, on their stage.

Speaker B: Yeah, during, during the trade show. Um, also there were people from Australia, Japan, um, Czech Republic, so visitors almost from all the world.

Speaker A: And did you agree on any meetings before the exhibition or it was just, uh.

Speaker B: Ye. Yes, we worked, um, uh, it was a special program of import promotional, uh, desk, uh, from German side. And uh, we worked with special consultants and they made this B2B match. Um, they prepared this B2B match for us. But uh, still, uh, we had clients just jumping to the booth occasionally.

Speaker A: Yes, just passing by.

Speaker B: Yeah, passing by and decided just to visit the booth. Um, and we had one, um, of the clients from Japan. So we had a conversation. I made A presentation. But for me it was like, okay, Ukrainian lollipops. Here they are unique.

Speaker A: Was it this distributor or what was the type of decline?

Speaker B: He, uh, was a distributor. And at that moment he told me, I'm a distributor for luxury products. So I'm looking for really very high quality, unique products. And we sell them, um, across the country. But, uh, to be honest, we had this, um. M. Lists of, uh, clients. And you make this priority. You put this priority. High, medium, or like, not really very important client. I. From what I remember, uh, I made him like, medium. Of course, not high priority. Uh, like medium. Okay. Uh, but because I thought Japan is really very far from Ukraine. We have war here. In Japan, you have like almost everything. You are a country that lives in future. How always people think about Japan, because it's true. Japan, literally, they have a lot of things that, uh, when you're in this country, you think that you're in future. For me, it was my dream to go to Japan. And before the pandemic, I had tickets for May, uh, 2022 that like, to Tokyo. But we know what happened. Like, uh, not 2022, but 2020, um, before the pandemic. And then, uh, pandemic happened and, uh, no Japan for me. And after the trade show in a week, I got an email from this partner. And he asked, uh, about the price list, the presentation, uh, um, the terms of, um, cooperation, delivery, etc. And. But I was so busy, uh, with uh, like all this things, uh, after the trade show. And, uh, I didn't respond at that point.

Speaker A: So until now, you. You made all the mistakes that I, I think and I tell my. My students and my clients not to make. But you made it, and still you succeeded.

Speaker B: Okay, I made it. So at the beginning I told you that I'm not a good example. So I'm example of breaking rules.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, well, but he was patient enough and, uh, in a few days he wrote me again and asked me, well, maybe you will send me your catalog and your price list because we are really very interested in your products. And I was like, okay, okay, sure.

Speaker A: Did he tried, uh, the, uh, quality at the trade show and did he take with him some samples? Yes. So he knew the. The quality of the.

Speaker B: Yeah, I gave him samples. So I gathered the samples. I gave him samples of the lollipops, jellies, marshmallows. So all the range that we had. He got all the samples. And, uh, you know, during the trade show you have clients and they're all very interested. So they Take samples and they tell you, oh, your product is so unique, it's so good, it's so great. But you know the truth. Like, maybe if you are a very young entrepreneur, you believe that it's all true, that they're, like, telling you at this moment. But for me it was like, okay, okay, yeah, of course that might be

Speaker A: true, that they really believe and think that, uh, this is interesting. But the word interesting is so.

Speaker B: No, uh, here is the difference between different, uh, countries. Yeah. Between different mindsets. When you work with clients from Israel, they never tell you, they never lie. They tell you directly what they need, what they want. And if you accept these terms, you work. If not, no. So. And it's so cool that you don't lose, like, your time. They know that time, uh, is money. It's the first thing that, uh, you're going to hear. And I like them a lot that they are so direct and they always tell you what they want and what they need. What we have with European clients, you have a long period of going back and forth, sending emails. How amazing is your product, how amazing is, uh, all the samples that you have sent? But can you change this? And maybe this and maybe this. And then we just need to taste it once again and we are thinking about this. And at the end of the day, what do you have? Like, in. In a lot of cases, when you have such a client, at the end of the day, you have nothing. When you work with American clients, they're very direct. They're very friendly as well. They're really very friendly as well. But, uh, they're more direct than European clients. So they will tell you, okay, it's great. But. And after this. But you just need to understand whether you commit with all the things that, um, uh, they, uh, highlighted or you can't meet it, and if not, then, um, you can tell, okay, I need some more time just to adapt the product or to make some adjustment to my production. And then I will come back and they're happy to talk with you further.

Speaker A: So different, uh, approach from different countries and M coins.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's all cultural, um, like, differences. Differences that we have. Yeah, it's all cultural differences. Um, but when you know, um, them, it's, um. For you, it's easier.

Speaker A: Let's come back to Japan. So they contacted you again and then.

Speaker B: Yeah, they contacted me again and then I answered and, uh, they told me, okay, can you send samples? More samples? We need more samples. Uh, and for me it was like, yeah, of course we can send samples and we send samples. I wouldn't uh, say that we send samples very quick. Uh, it was not a SAP. Um, it was like maybe in two weeks and two weeks for the delivery. So it was m. A month? Yeah, it was a month. Ah, they received samples and uh, we negotiated price a little bit. For me it was acceptable, um, like what they offered. Um, so after that, uh, they asked more samples, uh, because they choose uh, the products that they want to distribute. Uh, it was only lollipops that they choose. We had product retal lollipops and they're really very interesting. And during the trade show, um, I saw that it was like really a high interest in this type of product.

Speaker A: Yeah, I saw this pictures of that. It looks amazing. So it is like a hollow, uh, lollipop. Yeah. With uh, some stuff, uh, edible stuff. Yeah. Sprin inside.

Speaker B: It's edible sprinkles inside.

Speaker A: So it rattles like a, like a

Speaker B: rattle and it moves. Edible sprinkles inside, moves.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker B: And it makes this like rattle and we call it maracas because the sound is really great.

Speaker A: So you turn the candy into experience?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's more of an experience that you have. You not only eat the candy but you have uh, this experience. Uh, so they choose this target products for the market. Uh, ask more samples. Uh, we sent more samples. Um, and uh, then um, uh, we got an offer from them. So we signed the contract. Uh, and after that the most interesting part started.

Speaker A: Just to make sure I understand correct. So this was a distributor that wanted to distribute it. Uh, where, uh, in Japan. Did they tell you the stores or it was just they are buying from m. You to their warehouse?

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, they are buying from me to the warehouse. So I had no idea like how many stores. What, uh, stores? Um, no. So they worked with me.

Speaker A: Was it like a long term contract

Speaker B: or one time, uh, we signed it like long term. But uh, what we have now, it was for one delivery. Uh, but in terms of the contract, uh, it's for like the period of time, uh, longer than the first delivery.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, so we got the order. And the most interesting part, uh, started because um, we had an issue with the sprinkles. After the place the order, uh, we sent our samples to their lab in Japan.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So all the certificates that you have for Japan, it's not going to work.

Speaker A: Really? Even even though you had the certificates for United States? Yes. You had the FDA approval and.

Speaker B: Yeah, we have FDA approval. We have FSC 22,000. We had all the uh, tests from Ukrainian laboratories. But it doesn't work. It doesn't work because they need their own, um, tests.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Uh, so we sent more samples, um, to the lab. And uh, we had an issue with the sprinkles because some of the sprinkles had uh, coloring that are not accepted, uh, in Japan.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So we needed to find another producer of the sprinkles because we don't produce sprinkles ourselves. Uh, and it took us almost two weeks to find another sprinkles. But with Japan it works like this. You found another supplier, you make samples, you send them to Japan. And we send samples to the lab, I think four or five times. Like for the whole uh, process of uh, cooperation. Um, and uh, just to those people who listen, uh, we send samples, um, like it was our cost. So we send samples and pay for the delivery. And we negotiated that. They pay for the lab tests and we pay for the samples and for the delivery. Uh, for me it's okay. So I knew why it's kind of

Speaker A: a mutual investment in future.

Speaker B: And for them it was um, important as well because I made this offer and he told me, wow, thanks a lot. It's like for us it's really very important and we are really glad that we can spend more money on lab testing. So when uh, the candy are in country, we want spent a lot of time uh, doing all these tests. So they made this test before arrival and it was really very important for them to save the time after m. Um. And then uh, we started to have in Ukraine, um, outages. Uh, so instead of eight weeks, we made uh, the order like 10 weeks. But still they were really very empathetic and uh, they understood that. Okay, thanks a lot. We understand everything and yeah, we are okay with this.

Speaker A: Yeah. But in any case, to find um, another supplier within two weeks and um, despite the missiles and blackouts, um, um, being late only two weeks, uh, with the production, I think this is also a miracle. So you were really lucky and quick.

Speaker B: Yeah, like for. For him it. He was so surprised every time. For example, he wrote me, okay, the sprinkles doesn't work. We need to change the sprinkles like in three days. I have several options sending him sprinkles. Like the design of the sprinkles, as the design was also really very important how you have it. So it should be similar from what uh, they uh, have approved, uh, from the final customer. And it was like this, uh, uh, and he told me, oh my God, so quick, so quick, so quick. I'm surprised. So quick. And uh, when I told him, okay, we are ready with the samples, we are sending the samples, I know that, uh, the delivery from Kyiv to Tokyo, uh, makes like in 12 days, which is amazing as well. And he was surprised as well.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker B: Oh my God, it's so quick. So in terms of, uh, cooperation, uh, we tried to do our best. Uh, so we were quick, we were adaptable, we were like friendly, negotiable. And uh, for us it was important to uh, um, to have a good attitude because, you know, when you work with someone, uh, this person will uh, judge you, like the whole country.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, how to cooperate. For example, uh, when you ask this guy, how was the cooperation with the Ukrainian company? He it was okay. So the other guy, if he thinks about cooperation with the Ukrainian company, he most probably will make it because you have some kind of a positive experience.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So you are building trust not only for the long term cooperation with this distributor. Yeah. But also for those who will see your products, uh, on the shelves. And also for those who will hear from him, uh, about the image of the company, uh, he worked with, but also it applies to the image of the whole country.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The association would be like that.

Speaker B: Yeah. It's really very important to understand about this.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And also what I want to highlight that, um, we are part of, um, Ukrainian Manufacturers alliance. So it helps us a lot as well. So all this, uh, um, brands, uh, all this subsidizing, uh, the bosses and all this, it really helps us to promote our company without spending a lot of budget. Because, uh, when there are a lot of companies and you cooperate, you just divide all the cost. Yeah. You can just split all the costs that you have and it helps you a lot. So those who listen, um, please don't be afraid. Yeah. Unite. Really unite. Because, uh, you're achieving goals faster.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And you are sharing the m mistakes. Uh, also so you, you have, uh, uh, better like learning experience, uh, together.

Speaker B: Definitely.

Speaker A: What was the final of, uh, the um, Japanese journey? What, what is it now? How many stores? And now, uh, you know the names of uh, the stores you are sold in?

Speaker B: Uh, yes, now I know. It's Village Vanguard. It's 350 stores across Japan.

Speaker A: 350 stores.

Speaker B: Okay. It's 350 stores. And for me it's also a miracle, uh, because like 350 stores, it's a lot for such companies that we have because we are like small sized company. Uh, we are not huge, uh, producer. We are a small producer, but 350 stores. Like it's, it's a lot. Um, they're now considering second uh order but we don't like have it still. Uh, but we are in um. Like in the middle of negotiation process.

Speaker A: Good. What's uh, what's next? What are your plans uh for the other part of the world?

Speaker B: Uh, well in April we will have trade mission uh to Germany again.

Speaker A: Coming back. Back to Germany?

Speaker B: Yes, back to Germany. We'll see, we'll see. And also I took part in Berkeley Food accelerator from uh, Berkeley University and Food Nation M and we had experience of pitching our products there. It was two weeks ago. Uh, and I um, hope that we will have new partners in the United States.

Speaker A: M. Okay.

Speaker B: Because we are looking for new partners at the moment. And also Canada.

Speaker A: Great, great. That's amazing, amazing story and amazing uh.

Speaker B: Um.

Speaker A: Will to be international and to have this uh, results. Maybe um, you have uh, some advices for um, exporters that are just starting their journey. Because we're now facing with our conversation. We have now the collision of my approach of consistent and um, step by step analytical approach to going abroad. And you're um, a bit chaotic but uh, still very successful. Um, and it is okay. Yeah, so I totally agree that uh. It may happen like that. So it is more like depends um, on the person and on the company. Because even if I advise to choose the markets, uh, and what I hear from trade promotion offices from around the world, from other um, educational facilities and consultants, they advise mostly the uh, um. External part. Yes, you need to analyze the markets, the data, uh, and understand where is the potential. But they forget and I do talk about that the internal part, the criteria of choosing the market, uh should consist from external part, this analytical stuff and also the resources and wishes and intuition and possibilities of the company that is going to this market, if they have it, then they can choose the right correct markets according to this internal um, resources and possibilities. Because if they just will rely on data then I can say without any analysis that China, United, uh, States, uh and Germany are the three top markets in the world where for sure you will find clients if you will invest huge amounts of energy or your personal time or the money. So uh, that may happen. So taking all that uh, into account, maybe uh, you have uh, kind of top three advices uh for the um, beginners uh, in uh, uh, going internationally.

Speaker B: Uh, well, uh, you said that chaotic

Speaker A: but consistent consistency is the key one. Yes, that's what I'm talking about all the time as well. Consistency and persistence.

Speaker B: Uh, yes, and uh, the second one is resilience because uh, you will probably hear a lot of things that um, will be like this. You are not fit for this market. We have plenty of products here. Oh wow. Our market is so demanding or you know, our economical situation is not as good as it was five, six, seven, ten years ago. You know how hard our market is. So like so many competitors, so many competitors. Uh, why to choose your product and all this stuff, you will hear it. But stay resilient. If you are confident with your product and you believe that your product is market fit, you just need to stay resilient and uh, don't change your values. So no, if you main value is quality, so keep this quality. And uh, I think that um, you can always try small. Like during our um, classes at Berkeley, uh, we had this design thinking session and you can actually build your MVP in five days. Uh, during the classes. We built our MVPs in three hours. It's possible.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So if you want just to try how it's going to be, write with the website and try to make a delivery like from Ukraine. Don't invest money in the warehouse, fulfillment, like everything. Just make a test. It's really very cheap and easy to make a test sitting here in Ukraine with all the tools that are available now from Google, from Nova Posta, from Etsy, from other uh, platforms. Just try it without uh, like without any fear.

Speaker A: Yeah. Ah, yeah, yeah. Now, now it is amazing how much opportunity, how many opportunities um, we have. And not uh, only from Ukraine, especially uh, from Europe, um, uh, for those exporters from Europe. Yeah, so they have a lot of um, internal help and assistance um, from the air trade promotion offices. And that's uh, amazing how many information we have now openly in the web because we have started uh, a consulting company in 2008 and at that time there was no information available in Internet. So to analyze the market you needed to have a local partner there, uh, or to go there or to get information, whatever you wanted. And now it is uh, at the uh, fingertips. So you can just, in five minutes you can make analysis of macroeconomic data and, and um, already make uh, your decisions, um, consistent and persistent based on data.

Speaker B: And one more advice, if you have chance to go to the country where you want to export, just visit that country and just spend some time in different um, stores and just make some observation what people buy, how they decide what to take from the shelf. Um, is it some brands that they're like going and taking these brands all the time or are they looking at the shelf. You can take your product with you and just like uh, put it on the shelf and make a photo of this product and just take a look how is your product is on the shelf. Uh, for me this was very important during uh, my Berkeley uh trip as I took my products and my peach should be um, about like uh, functional jellies. This um, was my target product that um, I went to Berkeley with. But I changed this product like in two days after observations and after just taking a look how this product looks on the shelf with the other functional um, jellies that are already on the market.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So I changed all my peach presentation, target uh, production and it was a good decision. It was a really good decision. Um, but if you have this opportunity, just go and make some observations. You can even ask people and make

Speaker A: some customer discovery interviews. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yes, very quick one.

Speaker A: Um, we have one episode also like um, a case study for about Ukrainian uh, heating innovation, uh, heating products. And they also told how they traveled to uh, potential client in other country. But meanwhile when they were crossing other countries they just were stopping and uh, going to specialized um, stores and uh, they managed to find another client just passing by the stores just from, from the scratch. Just go in there asking the salespeople could you they could they introduce them to the director or the owner. And uh, that made them quite a lot of um. And you say also in this direction. Good. Um, it was amazing conversation. Olena and I um, would talk even more and we already out of time twice. So I don't know how I will cut this uh, episode to pieces because everything is very valuable and uh, probably I will think about splitting that uh, interview in two halves. But in any case it was really interesting and I hope uh, that I uh, will see your uh, company name in many, many more markets in the future.

Speaker B: Thanks a lot.