The #1 mistake brands make with B2B creators (Aneesh Lal, Wishly)

Speaker A: Yo. I'm Devin Reed and I'm on a mission to build a bigger and more inspired career as a marketer, creator and entrepreneur. After 10 years in sales and marketing and leading content for billion dollar SaaS startups, I know one thing. Learning from the best will help me reach my potential. Let's ride. That's why I'm traveling America for unfiltered street level conversations about creativity, marketing and playing by your own rules. This season we're in Vegas because the theme is betting on yourself and taking creative risks. Because the biggest wins of my career came from the all in moments that others called crazy.

Speaker B: Are you ready?

Speaker A: This is Read between the Lines, the show for people who want to achieve phenomenal results. Most people dream of quitting their job to chase something bigger, but few people do it and almost no one does it at the level that Aneesh Lal has. Aneesh is the founder of the Wish League Group, the biggest beater creator agency in North America. They run 75 campaigns per month for the biggest SaaS brands on the planet like LinkedIn, Notion and Adobe, and help turn creator content into pipeline. But Anisha Story isn't just about growth. It's about guts. In today's episode, you'll hear what it really takes to bet on yourself and build something no one's done before. Plus unexpected lessons from running hundreds of influencer campaigns and what most marketers say still get wrong about influencer marketing. Are you ready? Let's ride. And shout out to our sponsor for this episode, Share youe Genius. They're my Go To Podcast partner. They help me with production and strategy and I love them so much that this is the third podcast that they've helped me put together. Yes, I've hired them three different times because they're that good. They help brands and leaders bring their voice to life. So if you're looking to get a leader at your company on the micro to launch a new show or to help develop and scale your content strategy, I highly recommend you check them out. Go to shareyourgenius.com or hit the link in the show notes. Now onto the show. So today you manage over 30 B2B creators, including Kevin Dorsey, Brianna Doe, uh, Jen Allen Couth, uh, John Barrows and me.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Speaker A: You're doing 75 campaigns per month with big brands like notion, Adobe, LinkedIn. You just crossed $3 million of revenue. Uh, made for your creators. Right? And things are booming right now. Yeah, but it wasn't always this way. You used to work at Pinterest you had a good job as a sales rep, stable income, and you decided to quit that to build Wishly, which is now the largest B2B creator agency in North America.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, I love that. I need to take you with me elsewhere. This is fantastic.

Speaker A: So walk me through the decision to quit. You know, so walk me through the decision to quit stability and go all in on your vision.

Speaker B: Yeah. So my, my parents, you know the typical immigrant story. Like, my dad's an entrepreneur, right. And he's always preached about time freedom and location freedom. He, he was able to work on his terms his whole life. And we've seen the roller coasters of what happens when you're not consistent. But I think coming from that, just seeing where he ended up was like a, um, I kind of felt like I'm good. He was able to do a lot more with a lot more to lose. But when you take a look at the risk profile, like, because I'd worked for like Pinterest and Coca Cola and some of these big companies, I wasn't afraid of like failing. Like you can fail. And I'm like, okay, what's the worst that happens? I gotta. I get a six figure sales job again, I wasn't too afraid of that. Um, one thing I will say though is I sort of phased into it though. I did have side hustle clients that I found and my real litmus test was when they started telling me they wanted more of my time. That's when I knew that this was I. There was demand for a niche. Not a niche as Pinterest or a niche at Coca Cola, because that could easily become part of your identity. Right. Like Devon @Gong versus the reader. Right. Um, and I think when people, when you realize that it's actually me thereafter, not the logos and the big accounts and all that, that gave me the confidence to jump out.

Speaker A: So when did you have the vision though, to build out this agency model? Because, you know, we're mostly on LinkedIn, like, like I'm mostly on LinkedIn, a little YouTube. But like, you had the vision to build out a creator agency in B2B, basically on LinkedIn. Where did that come from though? Because before you did it, it did not exist.

Speaker B: Right. Uh, it all started with Katie. As you know, Katie is like ground zero, number one, first client of mine. And I think the reason we met was you were doing a deal with Katie as well. Right? Was a Clary deal.

Speaker A: Yeah. You want m to share that story?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: This is exactly what happened. So, um, I was working at Clarice head of Content. And my CMO came to me and was like, I want to do a deal with Kevin Dorsey. Kd, I remember. And, um, I was like, okay. And right away in my head I'm like, that's going to cost some money. He's one of biggest names and still is. And, um, he was like, don't worry about that. Like, just go talk to him and like, see what you can work out. Right. And so, um, I ended up talking to you on behalf of kd and we struck a deal. Let me say how much or not. I might not say how much it was.

Speaker B: You can say it's fine.

Speaker A: So we ended up striking a deal about $50,000. Now, this was over a three, probably three months. Multiple activations, like speaking on webinars and LinkedIn posts and email blasts. It was like a whole package. And, uh, my first thought was like, good for KD getting 50k. Because my CMO was like, like, fine, like, no problem. It was the easiest 50k I've ever had approved. And so I'm like, great. So we run in the program and there was a day where I'm moderating the webinar that Kevin was on, right? And he was with one of our, uh, leaders at, uh, Clary. And I'm sitting there and I'm just. It clicks that like, Katie didn't have to do much of any prep because he knew the topic. I could see this was easy for him and I knew how much he was making. And I texted you while on the webinar, like, yo, we need to talk. I want in on this. And you're like, yeah, let's set it up. Now, first, I think you thought something really bad happened on the webinar because I was texting me.

Speaker B: First time you text me and I was like, something bad has happened. And you know one thing, I've never told you about that story.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: When we first started negotiating his contract, I was like, Katie had forwarded me the email, like, ah, hey, you need to talk to Kyle and then introduce you. And, uh, I was like, I'm about to negotiate with Devin Reed. Oh, like, because I knew who you were as a, as a LinkedIn person, like in the sales space. You've heard of Gong? Gong Labs. You've heard of them, right? Right. So I'm like, I better not screw this up. I gotta bring my A game.

Speaker A: Oh, that's funny. You did, by the way.

Speaker B: Uh, well, it worked out. We got the deal done. Yeah, but I guess. And then. And I was like, then I. Then. Then we have to manage the account. I'm like, devin's not my main point of contact because that doesn't happen. I rarely. I rarely got to work with other influencers who are running.

Speaker A: That's true. That's true. I wasn't influencer. Forgive me for saying it, influencer. Running an influencer program at my company. So that does.

Speaker B: Right, so it was a little bit. It was a little bit different. Right. But, uh, so. So when you texted, I was like, extra panicked. I was like, oh, now I'm going to be on Devin Reid's bad side. And then he knows Katie, and he knows Katie's boy Kyle. I'm like, this is going to be. That was my original.

Speaker A: Like, I texted you like, yo, we need to talk.

Speaker B: Yeah. It wasn't. I want in on this, by the way. I want to make sure that's crystal clear. It wasn't like, I really like what you've done with Katie. And let's. That context was given after my heart attack.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I am known for doing this in person and over text where I will say things like that just to get attention and, like, get a little rise. Uh, but it was all good things. So let's talk about how we got connected.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So you started with Katie, but, like, was that. Is that really where. Like, where did the. So where did the vision for this creator agency come from?

Speaker B: So more people were starting to ask Katie how he was doing, what he was doing. Right? So either they were working with us kind of like you, or it was like, John Barrows was like, hey, like, how are you managing full time and the community and all this? And Katie's like, well, I got a guy. Right? And then by then, I, uh, started talking to. I already started working with Morgan. Similar, Similar vibe of, like, he's like, I wish somebody could help me with all my. All this important stuff that I just don't have time for. I'm leaving so much money on the table. So when I heard it from kd, then I heard it from Morgan, and then you told me in our. In our, you know, post heart attack call. Um, and then John messaged, uh, uh, uh, KD being like, hey, like, who's this? A niche guy? When I start seeing, like, two or three of those things, I'm like, hang on here. This is. This is crazy. Like, how is no one helping these folks? Right? And Katie told me, like, you're actually really good. And when him and I did this thing, like, this, like, reflection, actually, if anyone knows Katie, he's really big on this personal growth. He's been a huge mentor and coach for me as well. I got very lucky with him. Um, he's like your strongest skill sets. Like, you're a really good closer and you've done it in media sales at the biggest levels. Like I was like, oh, fair point. Like I have closed $10 million deals with retailers or Cartier, Nintendo, all these big brands. So when I start bringing that same knowledge to B2B media where it's like a fifty, a, uh, twenty, a, uh, ten, even a hundred thousand dollar deal, that comes a lot easier to me than I realized. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then so he's like, you've got the skill set to close in our space. All you need is inventory. And I was like, I need to find the right kind of folks. And that's when Wishly started becoming from a fractional thing to a full time thing.

Speaker A: When did you make that realization or choice? Like, you know what, I see these signals, I'm seeing demand. There's a big opportunity here. Maybe I don't even know how big, but I'm gonna go all in.

Speaker B: So by this point I had six people when I decided to go full all in on it because I was also running my CRO business on the side.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, August 6th of last year.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: I remember the day because Morgan, we were in London, him and our friend Stuart sat me down and said, anish, we no longer want you to be our partnerships. Lead on. Like the CRO stuff I was doing, I was like, what the hell? I just helped you close five deals. But you belong to something much bigger than this. You're actually a phenomenal agent. We want you to go pursue that. Because I was like holding off bringing on people because I was doing the CRO stuff. And that talk at this Marriott in London led to me like the Monday. I told Mika, uh, my team, we're shutting down the CRO stuff. Let's wrap up those projects. They were super pissed that I was not. I chose not to not renew those contracts.

Speaker A: The clients, the clients were really upset.

Speaker B: They're like, we need you. I'm like, sorry, it's done. All in. And then from August to December, we went from six creators to 25.

Speaker A: I remember that four months. Every time we had a weekly cost where you're hiring, you would sign somebody else, you'd sign somebody else.

Speaker B: Reluctantly. I was like, okay, I'll do it. And then, and then now we found we're finding the systems and you know, you've obviously dealt with the Growing Pains. You've been a great, great, great, uh, support there.

Speaker A: Uh, you also deal with my Devon pains.

Speaker B: So that's why we get along.

Speaker A: It's mutual.

Speaker B: That's why we get along. Uh, and I got very lucky. Like, the starting five. I always call you guys my starting five. Like K.D. morgan, John, you and Jen. I don't think this would have happened if I didn't have the best starting fight. Like, you're all very supportive people. Like, you're on team Anisha as much as you are on Team Devin. Team Jen, whatever. Uh, so it's been really great that way.

Speaker A: It's funny because it's such a small thing, but when I got you a niche at the reader co email address, I was like, this is big time. This is my guy. He's my agent. And, And I tell, uh, I tell everyone, like, if you're on my team, you're all the way on the team. Like, you don't have to be a W2 employee per se. Like, you can, you know, my agent. But I remember thinking, like, all right, I'm all in with this guy because we did a pilot at the beginning of that year for, like, three months, and I set some, like, kind of big goal. And you were like, yeah, let's do it. And I remember being like, you didn't flinch at what I just said. And you were like, no, no, because I see a path and I think we'll get there. And I was like, all right. Your confidence gave me confidence.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and we've accomplished a lot together. You have helped me grow a lot. Um, I know I've helped you get into a couple of doors as well. And so that's what's been cool too, is it's, um, it's funny when people are like, wait, so you. You have an agent? And I go, it's. It's cringe for me to say I'm an influencer. And it's just weird to say I have an agent. But both are technically true.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's one common thing with all 30 of you. You. You don't. You don't like acknowledging that your. Your creators. That you need agent. You need someone like me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and it's always funny. Some people think I'm lying when I go. I'm like, oh, yeah, by the way, I'm Devin's agent. I'm John's agent. I'm so and so's agent. I'm m. Like, no, I'm serious. That's. That's My job. They're like, really?

Speaker A: What?

Speaker B: Makes no sense.

Speaker A: So what's been the most surprising thing since going all in on your own business?

Speaker B: We have a wait list of 25 people I want that want representation as of this moment.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: I spoke to, I had somebody call me two weeks ago and put their wife on the phone to say, please sign this person, Please sign him, he needs you. Because they had heard from another creator's wife. They all talked.

Speaker A: You're all in the family.

Speaker B: Um, as you know, your mother in law made me rotis at the house. Baby, you know I love the family, right?

Speaker A: That's true.

Speaker B: Um, and I tell all my family about that because it's the best rotis. I had a long time. My mom's like, kind of jealous.

Speaker A: I was like, you said that to your mom?

Speaker B: I told my mom, I told my mom.

Speaker A: So it sounds like demand was the most surprising.

Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't realize how, how many people would want talent representation right away. And uh, when people's families are asking me to like sign them and like they're super stressed and I actually feel bad right now. I can't physical capacity wise, we're trying to find more agents to bring on, but, uh, it's gotten to a point where that was like shock number one and then shock number two was when I met David Meltzer.

Speaker A: So let's talk about that because you've been coined, you've been crowned the Jerry Maguire of LinkedIn.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Because you are the, at the time seemingly the one and only agent. There are others, but I, uh, genuinely don't know who they are because you're big timing. Uh, and then you met David Meltzer, who is the original guy that uh, Tom Cruise's character was based on.

Speaker B: Yeah. So if you look at the movie Jerry Maguire, super old, um, there's a big agent from the past called Lee Steinberg. And then the company, uh, the company, the massive sports agency that it was like, it was called the Lee Steinberg Sports Agency was named, uh, from that character that Jerry Maguire played. The CEO of that company is David Meltzer. So David Meltzer was the inspiration of that massive company you see in the movie, uh, that what it became. But the right way people don't realize the movie Jerry Maguire was actually based on real life. Real life people. Right. Um, I remember Morgan actually sent me this email saying David Meltzer is hosting a mastermind in, in L. A at SoFi Stadium. David had rented out the whole Sofi Stadium for 25 people. Like, where am I? I'm in this room, and there's a couple of billionaires, a couple of millionaires, and then me and like, maybe some, you know, four other people. Like, we're looking at each other being like, what are we doing here? This is insane. And, um, I remember at the start of that day, I was so excited to meet him because I'm like, you built out your own version, like, sports talent agency. I'm doing kind of something similar on LinkedIn. I'd love to learn from you. Right? And you're also my namesake. Like, everyone calls me the Jerry Maguire. I probably should listen to you. I remember at the start of the start of the Mastermind, like, by the way, everyone, we have a, uh, uh, one on one mentorship coaching program. I'm like, oh, I'd love to sign up. I don't care how much it is. I'll figure it out. And, uh, I went up to him in the team and they're like, yeah, I know, that's cool. Uh, it's a 500 person wait list, though. I was like, why would you tell me this is even available? I'm so into this. So I remember writing my name. I was number 532. I remember that on the Excel sheet. And then we started introducing ourselves and I started telling all these people, I write a LinkedIn influencer agency, got 25 people, blah, blah, blah. And the billionaires all came to me to be like. And they started showing me their LinkedIn profile. Help me. We don't know how to crack this. We don't know what's going on. And I was like, giving people tips, advice. I don't realize how much I've learned from you and Morgan, like 30 playbooks I get to study every day. I'm looking at your content all the time. And I've seen your courses, your books and all that stuff. So I'm now giving this advice out, and David's losing his mind. His team's losing his mind. So at the end of the night, David and his team come up to me and they're like, hey, uh, you gave a lot of value to a lot of people. A lot of people here, like, talking about you behind your back. Like, they're saying nice things like that niche guy, blah, blah. Thanks for making our event so sick. I was like, oh, no worries. Cool. And then he goes, uh, we have a. We want to let you know we'd like you to become. We'd like you to. We're going to waive the. The wait. Uh, list and put you on as in our mentorship program. But we have a problem though. I was like, oh, what now? Another roller coaster moment. He goes, we saw you call yourself the Jerry Maguire of LinkedIn. And in that moment, Devin, I was like, I've come into this guy's house talking about all these deals, I'm using his name. He might even have like, this might be a seats and desist conversation. He might own the rights to this thing. And then, uh, uh, he goes, I think it'll be confusing to your audience if the Jerry Maguire of LinkedIn represents Jerry Maguire on LinkedIn. And I looked at him kind of off and I was like, what are you talking about? What does this mean, Dave? He goes, I want you to rep me. And in that moment I was like, this is insane. Like that was the second shock, right? Like that was like a billionaire. Someone is accomplished. He probably can get teams of people behind him for some reason is like LinkedIn's that differentiator for him. I didn't realize how important this would have been. The next day we had the most intense 30 minute interview I've ever had. Some intense questions on values, choice, like my choices in life, like why, who do I choose? All those things. Uh, and then he's like, send me the contract. You're my guy. So we signed him that day.

Speaker A: That's awesome story.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What did that do for your confidence?

Speaker B: Oh, I was immediately confident and immediately scared at the same time. Like as the human being behind the camera and all that bullshit. I was like, I better show up for this guy because now I'm in. Now I'm in like the big. Like that's, that's the original agent, the one that everyone synonymizes with our industry. It's Jerry Maguire. It's him. So there was a pressure that was there, but then also a sense of pride that he also chose me for a reason.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: When he, he told me like, he's like, aneesh. I get asked all the time for people to broker my shit. I didn't feel it with them. But you, you've got a different energy. I was like, oh my God, I don't even know what this means. We watched Jerry Maguire that night with him. No, no, no. My wife and I. My wife and I watched Jerry McGuire that night. Just to, just to get back into it. It was, it was really good.

Speaker A: So you had a successful sales career, then you moved into building your own agency.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then you meet, uh, the real Jerry Maguire you get offered to work with.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: There's other opportunities that you've gotten as well since then. But like, how do you think about risk and reward in these moments? Because I think we all get that thing of like, once the moment finally comes and the opportunity is there and the door is open, scary as shit sometimes. And a lot of times people I think, uh, back away from that scary feeling and you seem to like, just walk through very nonchalant. And so I'm curious, like, how do you think about risk and reward when these big opportunities find you?

Speaker B: Yeah. I told myself, if I'm going to go all in into Wishly, my motivation are the creators I get to represent. I don't tell anyone. Like, oh, like Devin, uh, you know, he's my guy. Like I get to represent Devin Reed. I get to represent David Meltzer. I take it actually very seriously to the point where it's like cheesy fluffy stuff. Like I don't take for granted that I know how important brand deals are to every single one of my creators. Like personal lives. They all have personal goals and wishes. That's where the name Wishly came from.

Speaker A: Oh really?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I like that.

Speaker B: Um, Anisha, I wish I could do this. I wish I could get the house in Costa Rica. I wish I could do this with my daughters. I wish I could leave my W2 and you know, do my own thing. Um, those things matter to me a lot. So I actually take the fear out of the equation. I'm like, I have to do this. I want, you know, I. And I, then I get strategic. How do I open more doors? How do I. How do I get my creators to get into new opportunities? They have to talk to new people. They have. We have to escape this B2B SaaS bubble. I'm thinking like five steps ahead on that one. Right. In order for us to do that though, we have to meet new people. We have to invest in new things. We have to. And that's where the David Melch is of the world. He's opening up so many doors, you know, even for us already. Yeah, right. So when you take a look, when you take a look at that, like the risk reward piece, it's sort of like a, uh, it's a nice to have. The risk is like, I'm going to fail these people. I can't allow that to happen. You have to take that, the consequence of failure so seriously that just, it's not even an option.

Speaker A: And I think that's what makes you like the anti agent in a lot of way. Because I think when someone hears agent or you know, Talent representation. They think of, like, slimy, slimy. How can you get the most money out of this person with doing the least amount of work?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think that's. You're talented in many ways. I think your superpower is your ability to open doors for other people. And I know that probably boils down to what an agent originally was supposed to be or maybe used to be.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: But it's like, when people ask me, like, oh, you have an agent? You're like, kind of like, what's that like? Or, oh, hey, I heard that Anisha is your agent. I'm like, yeah, like, how's that been?

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Uh, and I get a lot of texts. I don't know if you know, but, like, people text me, hey, I'm talking to a niche. Before I sign, I want to know what you think. Oh, really? Yeah. And so I'm like, it's been life changing because a niche is someone who I trust to represent me in the market, which, you know, is something that I protect my reputation at all costs. I'm very cautious with that. And so the fact that I'm like, oh, yeah, I have him out there. And like, yeah, sometimes I point them in the right direction, you know, like, notion. I was like, I really want to work with Notion. You made that happen. And then other times you just come back to me and say, hey, I've got this kind of crazy, ah, idea. Um, one of David Meltzer's friends, I'll say we can bleep it later if we have to. He, uh, wants to have us help grow his LinkedIn. So, Dev, do you want to help me grow LinkedIn?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um. And it's like, hell, yeah. Like, those are doors that I never thought that would open up for me and could lead to something bigger in the future. And so I love that you're always looking over the horizon, but looking to open doors for other people and you, like, hold the door so your creators can go in first and then you follow. And I think that's just like a very. A very humble approach to. To a profession that often gets a bad rap.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I. I really appreciate that. It means a lot to hear. Um, because that's exactly. I'm trying, I'm trying to not make it a transactional profession. It has to be transformative. Especially if I'm the category leader on LinkedIn doing it. I could easily be out there and be like, oh, de slime ball doesn't do shit. He's the worst. Blah, blah, blah. No one's Going to want to work with folks in the industry if that happens. Right. Like, I want to make it like an encouraging, fun thing for people to do. Um, if we've earned $3 million for our creators, we probably turned down what. We've turned down so many deals, at

Speaker A: least 50% of deals.

Speaker B: So many deals. Right. And it's not because we're like, I'm not here chasing the, you know, I've had months where I'm like, hey, Dev, I don't think we, I don't think we made enough. Let's, let's cap some of the, you know, the retainer stuff and all that. I think it gets to a point where you have to think about the creators first. You have to like, embody and live that. Ah, you cannot be a transactional person. Yeah. So I pray to God that that never changes the way I don't see it happen. But, you know, that's just, this is something I'm always thinking about.

Speaker A: So you have a very unique perspective, which is you have seen hundreds of B2B influencer marketing campaigns.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: So I want to know what has been the biggest win that you've been a part of?

Speaker B: The biggest win that I've been a part of was where we had one creator, a, uh, one creator, three month pilot that turned into three creators for 12 months at a quarter million dollar deal.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Till date, one of the biggest wins we've had as a company because they saw how good one pilot was, like, bring on the other two and we're gonna ride for 12 months with all three.

Speaker A: Let's talk about how you structure influencer marketing deals, because I think that is one of your strengths in the business is you've taken the current state and you totally flipped it. So the current state, uh, is slash. Was. Because I think it's changing. Was, uh, you know, hey, Devin, can I get a LinkedIn post? Right. Hey, uh, you know, Zoe, can I get a one, you know, one LinkedIn post or one thing? And, uh, you have flipped that. So how do you structure influencer marketing deals?

Speaker B: First thing I tell the brand when they ask me for that is like the way they're labeling risk. I'm like, it's not, it's not a, it's not a timing thing. Like, we're gonna, we're just gonna do a budget one. I'm like, you're wasting your budget. Like, you're already, you're already committing to the risk that you're so afraid of. And they're like, okay, I actually see that I'm like, you actually need to do way more to test this out properly, otherwise you're just going to be stuck. And that's the worst thing you can be in that scenario. In a pilot is stuck either worked or it didn't. But you got to test it properly. So as long as the marketer can understand that, that concept that. Okay, you're right. The first time we ever ran social media on Facebook wasn't a one ad thing.

Speaker A: That's a good comparison.

Speaker B: So I'm saying I was like, hey, do you remember the first time you tried Instagram? Uh, it was a while ago. But yeah, I do. I'm like, was it one freaking post with so and so? No. Like you did a bunch. You did stories, you did this, you did that. They're like, yeah. So I'm like, similar thing here. We just need to play different activations. And if you're rolling with anyone with us, because we have the top voices in all the spaces, they, the chances are they have a, uh, newsletter, a podcast, different activations for us to bundle because you want to get deeper with the creator's audience, not, not just this cosmetic one off thing. Um, and then they're like, yeah. And then I also said, I also told them like LinkedIn is a channel where you gotta slice it up a bit. Like you can't do a YouTube video for 20 minutes and say everything you want. There's only so many things Devin can talk about in notion or any of any of the partners we've had. So when they start understanding, it's an education thing. And then now we do a multichannel, multi month approach, minimum three months. You got to get on LinkedIn newsletter, podcasts, we'll do webinars, we'll do co authored content, but this gives them enough testing material to go back to leadership and say this with this work, this worked or this didn't.

Speaker A: Well, I like it too because you have multiple reframes in there or one is de risking it because that is the number one thing, which is like a lot of times the head of marketing or someone in marketing leadership wants to do influencer marketing, but you're putting your name and your reputation internally at risk. And so you think, okay, let me just dabble. And I love that you're like, look, dabbling doesn't work and we don't even dabble. We go all in on a three months. So then you get a real feel for it. And then two, I feel like the feedback is also like you're helping them. Um, you're helping them understand and expand how much value actually could be there versus, like, yeah, you might get a great Devin might go viral for you on LinkedIn. Congrats. But everyone in his following is not going to see that post.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And so what if you co created some content that aligns with your strategic initiative? What if we distribute a newsletter, some of the other assets you've already created? And I've seen people on calls like, their eyebrows go up and they're like, oh, yeah, this is bigger. And then you become a category of one. Uh, because now anyone else in another agency is saying, oh, we'll do a one off with so and so their brain goes, well, that's actually the old way and the new way has been introduced. And so I feel like that helps you kind of like, solidify your position and helps deals be more successful.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I've had brands come to us being like, we heard you were working with my friend at the other brand. They love the way you packaged it. Can we, can we talk? I'm like, yeah, that's great. I actually give away this playbook for free. Like, I've been asked to come in and speak to, like, the Whalers and the WPP and like, the publicists of the world now, because they're all trying to get into B2B creator economy. And I'm legit going in, giving all these agencies this playbook away for free because I want to grow the category because dollars will come our way, and they already are. Now when campaigns come, they're like, anish, who on your roster would be great for this brand that I never, never would have imagined would have cared about LinkedIn? But they're here and it's finally happening.

Speaker A: What would you say is the biggest mistake that marketers make when it comes to influencer marketing?

Speaker B: I cannot stand the bait and switch of, we're going to let Devin cook. But then they take away your pots, pans, ingredients, everything, and they say, here's one thing, and cook it this way. Makes no sense. You came to us because you love the way Devin did things. You love the way Devin talks to his people, his style, his authenticity, his approach. But now you've overly prescribed a situation that you have no context on, and that's when, uh, the campaigns start failing. Right? And then when you tell the brands we told you so, they're like, you should have warned us. Well, we did, but no, you should have stopped us. Uh, but we tried. But then, you know, you, you're pretty aggressive, uh, and Those revisions just piss everybody off. And the creator doesn't want to renew with the brand, the brand doesn't want to renew with the creator. And it gets tough to keep that balance going. So I cannot stand it when four hands do the bait and switch on. Yeah, let the crew do the thing and then just get in the way

Speaker A: of that, and then what happens? They say influencer marketing doesn't work. Or, uh, we tried working with Devin, but it didn't go so well. And it's like, maybe. Maybe that's true. But how often do they show what really happened behind the scenes, which was, you know, creative, uh, you know, taking over creative control? Um, the one I have found interesting, uh, as a. As a creator, is, like, how much money brands will spend then not even give you a brief. Or they actually do the opposite, which is they're like, promote this. And you're like, okay, well, like, what's your messaging? How do you want this positioned a little bit? And then you. You cook, and then you give them that, and they're like, this is not what I ordered. Send it back. You're like, well, hold on a second. You told me chef's choice, you know, and now we're here. So it's kind of funny, like, trying to find that sweet spot. Is there any other, um, kind of gotchas or mistakes that folks make that you can kind of help coach them through right now?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's. There's so many that come up.

Speaker A: We're.

Speaker B: We're running, like, almost 80 campaigns a month now. So we. I wish everything was working flawlessly and smooth. Um, there's a lot of internal misalignment on expectations. A lot. So I'll always ask, what is your leader looking for in this? And what is their leader looking for in this? Especially if it's a pilot. And that very rarely can the influencer, marketing manager, or even director tell me the two levels above. And that's when I'm like, we should probably just run some due diligence on that, because the last thing I want to do is we ran this sick campaign that you're happy with. But then the VP or CMO is like, why did we do this? And then I always. I always tell them in the kickoff call and even before we sign stuff, there are so many technologies available on LinkedIn now where we can send certain types of reports and data enrichments and whatever. Would that be appeasing to your leadership? Would that be appealing to them? And then they're like, yeah, we didn't think of that, I'm like, I already know. The number one question uh, C Suite asks is, how is influencer marketing tied to any form of results? Which is a different debate, different issue.

Speaker A: Time and a place.

Speaker B: Time and a place. That could be a whole other episode. But, um, that's when. That's when I tell them that I proactively. Because we've had this conversation so many times on renewals, we already know what to feed up to the leadership. I just need to make sure that they've thought about it.

Speaker A: Well, it's having clear milestones, which any marketer should have for any campaign and investment anyway. But I think too is, uh, you help them level up in that way because you're making that person more successful, giving them a higher likelihood of looking good internally. And so then I know too, sometimes people are like, you know what, Anish, let's just have you come talk to the VP with.

Speaker B: Which is what ends up happening?

Speaker A: Well, yeah, it's easier. It's like, all right, you're teaching me. Let's just have you in the room and sell, sell this and explain it too. So, yeah. Um, so if you run 80 campaigns a month, I'm no mathematician, but let's just say millions of campaigns now, uh, you've seen hundreds, if not over a thousand.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And despite all the best effort and best intention, they do not all succeed.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: So why do some influencer marketing campaigns? Floppy.

Speaker B: There is a huge gap between the first activation and the second one in terms of time. In terms of time. Because we do the three month, multi channel, multi month activations. So if there's no link between the first activation and the second one, then that's an issue because you've just done. You may as well have done the one off post over a longer period of time. There has to be consistent activations throughout. So we don't have. You have a frequency cap, but not enough. Not in a tight enough window. We've seen that because of operational delays, people take vacations or we messed up with like the creator availability because of travel and things like that. Um, we've now learned to like, we need to know everything about the creator. I'll sometimes find out things about creators on Instagram. I'll be. Yo, you should have told me because we have to do this thing next week. But you're somewhere else, right? I'm not calling you out, by the way.

Speaker A: I was going to go, what have you found on Instagram? My Instagram's cleanly, so I have nothing to hide. But I was like, what did you find on Instagram? I thought you meant more of like things you do or like values that you haven't conveyed. Like, I know the real you.

Speaker B: I just find out that you're like out of town. I'm like, wait, we're supposed to, you

Speaker A: suppose post, hey, Bali looks sick. You're supposed to be here tomorrow for an appearance.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So. So those are the types of things where I'm like, that's one thing I've seen. Like just uh, people don't think about those things. They're like, we signed the contract and now we're going to get three posts and three this. But it has to be cohesive and it has to tell a story, you know, for, to, to win. Right. Um, so that's one. Another one that's just been absolute like I, I can't stand it is when um, we have, we have a mismatch of creative strategy to content strategy, little things like that. So they're using outdated creative creative that doesn't speak to the new story arc. They're just trying to feed it in. And I'm like, you're just repurposing stuff because you don't want to spend on designer or whatever. You're just like force feeding something through the system. And it sort of goes back to that area where this is not authentic to the creator anymore. I actually had this actually happened yesterday where a brand tried in the renewal, say the creator's gonna talk about the second 2.0. It's a complete rebrand of the UX though. So even for the creator, everything they've talked about in the last three to four months is gone. M. But they want to force feed the same story with a completely different, uh, use case and ui. And you can't do that. It's very confusing to the audience. So there's all these things that change over three months that can add risk to this process.

Speaker A: There's one thing that I do when I am, um, what I call, you know, giving someone a heat check, which I'm like, what is this person really about? Something I will do is just a little over compliment or over flatter a little more than I normally would to somebody to see how they respond to that. And I want to know if I can get their ego to flare or if they're like quick to take credit or how they handle that. And I did that to you a couple times to the point where it was really annoying that you wouldn't bite at all. And then, then I Started wonders, like, is this guy like false humility? Is he playing Mike? He sees my hand and he's playing it. But no, that's something that you just do well. You're like, uh, you don't, you're not susceptible to flattery and you don't show if you're nervous at all. And I think it serves you well.

Speaker B: No, I think, I think if I celebrate that, oh, we got a fifteen thousand dollar deal. Like, that's too small. That's how I see it. Uh, I want to do more for you. Right. So for me, I'm like, it's good we have this and you're happy. I, I do like to hear that

Speaker A: you're stepping stone guy.

Speaker B: But I want to see, okay, what can we do next?

Speaker A: Yeah, right.

Speaker B: Like, and we've, we've constantly, like, we've done great renewals with great brands and

Speaker A: like, shout out to Gold cast.

Speaker B: Yeah. Appreciate you guys. Shout out Kelly, love you. Um, but there's a lot of people, like, there's a lot of people that just continue to build with us. And I'm always trying to wonder, okay, what's possible? What's next? Yeah, what do they. How do we help the brand elevate even more? So we can go deeper on that later. But um, yeah, there's a. I like the acknowledgment, but I'm also like, what can we do next?

Speaker A: Measure the Kobe quote. Job's not done. Yeah, jobs not done. Um, I want to go a little more tactical to help marketers, uh, who are either getting started, thinking of getting started, or refining their influencer marketing strategy. And the number one question that I have probably asked myself and others, and now here is how should marketers think about picking the right influencer for them?

Speaker B: Do you want me to go like deep? What they should do? I'm happy.

Speaker A: I dare you to go as deep as you can go on this.

Speaker B: So the overarching selection process for us, like to even be a wishly creator and I'll. There's a reason why that connects to the brand. It starts with our 3C model. So I look for three things just to make sure you're even someone I can serve up to a brand.

Speaker A: Can I guess what they are? Three Cs. Charisma starts with a K. No, charisma starts with a ch. I would guess. Can I guess? Uh, I'd say charisma.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: I'd say cares. There might be a synonym word for cares. Uh, a character.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Two for three. Uh, why is My mind keep saying cash. That's not what you look for, it's what I want.

Speaker B: That's an outcome, I guess.

Speaker A: I don't know. I want, I don't know.

Speaker B: Character.

Speaker A: What was it? Why? Guess.

Speaker B: Character. No, you said charisma.

Speaker A: I said charisma. Character.

Speaker B: Oh, sorry. Credibility.

Speaker A: Credibility.

Speaker B: We'll go back. Credibility.

Speaker A: Maybe because I don't have it. No.

Speaker B: All fabricate. So, so when I, when I start talking to folks, because we started as sales and marketing creators, right now a lot of people don't know, but I personally, before coming into this whole LinkedIn world, I've closed $50 million in sales with some of the biggest brands for the biggest brands.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Right. So I know how to speak to a CMO at a, you know, seven figure, eight figure level. Level. So when I'm talking to a marketing person and I'm like, tell me about your process. And they're like, how do you build campaigns, content, whatever it is that your, your prowess is. I know enough to know if you're bullshitting me or not. Right. And I, I've all. I'm always like, you, you know, when you're like, can I get the niche to flare? Like, I'm also asking questions to be like, what is the depth of this person's knowledge? Right. You, um, had already taught me so much about content and copywriting and things like that. Like, this guy's definitely the real deal. There's no way that Udi and, and Chris and all these other people are bullshitting about this guy. Yeah. So I'm like, he must have credibility. And when we talked, I saw you, you helped architect a lot of the campaigns with kd. So I'm always testing for those things. So credibility is number one. Charisma is like, can this person retain, can they garner and retain attention? That's important as a creator. Sorry if you can't. The third one though is the character piece. And that's probably the most difficult one to assess because I, I don't get to know Everybody. It's a 30 minute chat when we're talking. So I. Now it's gotten a lot easier though, because I can just make a couple phone calls. We work with 50 brands, 30 creators. I get all the tea on everybody now. It's insane. It's actually too much. Like, I know too much. And it gets to a point where I know there's some creators who are so good on paper. People have asked me, why would you sign? So. And so I'm like, I have a list of people I will never sign because I know what they're like when they've had a few drinks at a conference or I know what they're like when they're with a woman alone and whatever it is. Right. And you hear things and I'm like, I don't care how much money cash opposite. I don't care how much money you're going to make us. And I say us as Wishly or how many brands you can bring in that can then sign up with five other people. Uh, there are certain things where we just need to draw a line. And if I can't get behind you as a. From a character standpoint, I'm never going to poison that. Well for money especially. No chance. So those are the big three that we look for now. How does that tie in to. To what the brand can expect when a creator comes in? Right. So we do all the edifying of. And like, we. These are quality control checks we've already done. So brands have already started saying like, oh, we didn't know there was originally. Thank God. We've already started hearing that.

Speaker A: That's really good because your reputation is good.

Speaker B: Right, Right.

Speaker A: And that's. And that's the thing too, for me. We've talked about this. I was like, even if another agent had come to me offering, you know, more money, bigger, whatever, I'm like, I'm on Team Wishly. Like, Anish is my guy. And I know that you vet all these creators because you've called and texted me about certain people and actually listen to me on the very rare occasion I say, no, don't do that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but also what it does is it builds the quality of the team I'm on where I'm proud to be on the team. And I know there's a process and a criteria to get in versus if you take everybody just for that cash, then it's like, well, the team's kind of janky now and I don't want to be associated with some of these people that I know better, so maybe I should bounce.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: And so I think that reputation has served you well and it's why your name is really good. When it's, you know, people talk about you, it's like it's always positive.

Speaker B: Right. And. And it is by design. Right. Like, uh, the only way you can get on Wishly is to be nominated by someone in Wishly.

Speaker A: What's a smart.

Speaker B: Except the only time David Mel.

Speaker A: David Melcher gets a pass. Jerry Maguire gets.

Speaker B: Jerry Maguire gets a pass.

Speaker A: I think if you get a movie made about you, it's, it's good to go.

Speaker B: Who am I to say no? But so when the brand already knows that they're getting an edified quality person, then we do a second half that a lot of my, even my creators don't know. So we will ask simple questions of the brand saying, give me like the top four or five titles of the ICP you're going after. We then do a overlap analysis with all your followers. Um, and then we can tell them that hey, you know what you're going after, Head of brand, head of content without Devin's a slam dunk. Because this much percentage actually overlaps.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: So we always tell them if you have at least 15 to 20% of the target audience you're going to with a creator minimum and then you, on top of that you add the premiums of titles. That's how we're able to get the premiums for our creators that we're able to. So there is a bit of a data play that we do behind the scenes. Um, and then that mixed with the edified quality reputation we have 100% campaign completion rate. All those types of things that um, makes it a lot more compelling case for what brands should be looking for. You should be looking not just on hype and, and cool reputation should get you to the, to the interview, to the door. But like the real selection process is like, do you actually speak to my people? And LinkedIn actually makes it very hard. Like their analytics are so vague sometimes that we have to take that extra step. Yeah, it's very manual. There's no, we don't do automation on LinkedIn, please watching, uh, we don't do that. M. So it is a very manual process, but it's worth every penny.

Speaker A: Well, so I'm curious to you if you can over rotate um, as a brand here because then I've, I've had just, you know, talking to a lot of marketers and they'll be like, we're introducing influencer marketing as a potential strategy at the company and we're struggling to pick which influencers and it feels like they're almost trying to do too much due diligence, which is like, is this person legit? Do uh, they have the right audience? Do they talk about the right topics? Is there, is their content going to land? And I tell them like, you're kind of like you're never going to get a yes on all of those things or else more people would already be doing influencer marketing. And then the Cost would actually go up because the risk would go down.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So you see that too, of like, people almost overthinking it and just like, at some point in time, you kind of just have to take that bet if you're going to, if you're going to jump in the water, you kind of just got to go. Yeah.

Speaker B: If I've already edified the reputation of the person, I've, I've done, I've shown you the other brands that they've worked with and I did, uh, the audience overlap, that should be good enough for you to at least roll the dice at that point. There's a different objection internally that I now need to figure out and overcome with you. Not. Not at you, with you. Yeah, it has to be that. That's the difference. Is this a leadership thing? Is it a management thing? Is it that you actually, like, you know, you're, you're very afraid of failing. Like, what is it? Um, and then I always tell every brand that's that, uh, we talked to so many brands where they're afraid to sign up or whatever. Um, and I'm like, if you don't scoop up someone like Devin Reid for your category, somebody else will.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And then you've lost the one that was actually right for you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that's the one thing that does work in our favor at Wesley. Like, we have select category heads and leaders for each one of these. Marketing, sales, I go, uh, to market, whatever, like these, these subcategories. If you do not scoop up the right talent now, I guarantee by the end of the year, everyone in your categories gonna be gone.

Speaker A: And then, and then they have non competes.

Speaker B: That's where it really hurt you. Right? Like you can't bring them for events. You can't even do a podcast with some people. Yeah, but you can't with some people.

Speaker A: Well, I think too, it works a lot. And I've, uh, again, if I was like, still, uh, in house, like, oh, if that's the person you want, it's almost like that's the exact car you want, the exact model and year, and you're not gonna buy it. Like, someone might come get it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's even worse because in SaaS, the SaaS companies are very competitive. Like almost, I think sometimes focus too much on what their competitors are doing. So when you are honest saying, look, your competitor will probably do, that's like, just imagine, Devin, Jen, whoever, promoting your biggest competitor. That's a huge motivator and kind of think it's a lot of execs over the hump too of like, you know what? If we're going to go, we got to go.

Speaker B: We've had brands come to us to sign up because they lost someone, they waited too long.

Speaker A: Oh really?

Speaker B: I've seen this firsthand. I wish I made this. I've seen it firsthand.

Speaker A: This is a passed on. Someone saw their competitors scoop them up and then came back and be like, we want in.

Speaker B: We want someone else now or the next. Can't believe our m. You were right. I'm like, guys, I'm making this shit up. Like influencer marketing is one of the best ways to spark dark social conversations. Mm mhm. At the end of the day it's a community led strategy.

Speaker A: What do you say to people who say influencer marketing is a bunch of bullshit, it's overhyped, it doesn't work.

Speaker B: How do we have a 90% renewal rate with all the brands that pilot with us?

Speaker A: But think outside of wishly, just the general in general.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, I feel like there's so I just take a look at how the average person buys. They talk about things that have happened in their WhatsApp groups, on Instagram, in the DMs. And you, whether people like to admit it or not, they are very impressionable right now. Not everyone's impressionable to a celebrity, to a uh, you know, an athlete or whatever. But the reality is there are a lot of it, a lot of people that are impressionable to folks on LinkedIn, to Instagram, TikTok.

Speaker A: So many people are impressionable even subconsciously.

Speaker B: I think subconsciously? Yeah, I mean it's the frequency effect, right? Google did that study. I think if you consume 7 hours of content and I think the number is only getting longer now because of the volume, but I think last year it was if you consume 7 hours of content in a ah, 2 to 3 month window, the chances of you buying from somebody astronomically go up.

Speaker A: That's really fascinating because one of the metrics I look at for the show is overall consumption of the content. So it can be the clip on LinkedIn or Instagram, it can be the overall YouTube numbers. And um, that metric makes a lot of sense to me. And so now it also helps me justify that to myself and to other marketers I'm talking to because I think sometimes they do struggle with yeah, they saw Devin's post for example, but did they buy? And I'm like, well let's just imagine which happened with notion, which I thought was crazy. People in the comments of my Notion sponsored post were like, this is super cool. I'd never heard of Notion before. One, thought it was weird because I just kind of assumed everyone had like heard of Notion. And then two, that uh, someone actually says like verbatim what a marketer would hope to say to like justify it.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: But then also it's like, yeah, well, notion's plg, so not the best example. But like if someone had never heard of Goldcast and Goldcast is an enterprise software, to expect that like Devin's or any, uh, influencers, like celebrity, uh, would be the reason to accelerate that buying decision. What, at the snap of a finger? Like, no, it's just you just bought Awareness.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Check. Now you need to earn their trust over time and then convert them later versus expecting like, well, if we paid X amount of dollars for this person to promote us, then we better see like a faster results. Like that's not the way to look at it. It's never going to change to your point, the buyer behavior.

Speaker B: No, it's all about future proofing your business. Right. Especially in a world where it's that much easier to put out content and that much easier on the number of channels you can put out content. Credible voices do matter because they can help beat the noise sooner than anyone else. Yeah, right. And there is, there is something to be said on speeding the sales cycle too, especially in our world. For sure, um, there's less friction in the path to purchase. But then there's also a chance of a higher basket size. The chances of someone consuming more. Like, I'll take Devin's course and his book and his this and his that. I'll sign up for the cohort. Your basket sizes increase over time as well, especially if you're, uh, partnering with people on those products. Partnering with people on different things. So that's where it gets really dangerous. And people don't realize why. It's like people are the ones who just shy away, are the ones who don't realize how important is to future proof your business. You're too busy trying to close out your current funnel. You haven't thought about the top of funnel and then you run out. Then you wonder, why is my cost of acquisition acquisition gone up? Well, you didn't do any anything to help that.

Speaker A: And the thing too is like, people don't really know how marketing works. So it's like, look, if you have no awareness, like your market does not know you exist. You've got 10,000 accounts you want to sell to in your tier one list. And they don't know you exist. Awareness comes with a cost. If you want people to trust you, credibility comes with a cost. And so it's like, to me, that's one of the ways that I always viewed it when I was in house kind of structuring deals was like, look, I'm looking for content creation. I love co creating content with these people because it elevates our brand, makes us look more premium. The other one is, helps me distribute it. So if we have these content, uh, assets and KD can put it on his list and tap into a new audience, I want that too. Right. And so I'm looking at these different angles and so I think that's what's helpful and why I wanted to have this conversation with you is like there's so many different ways you can do influencer marketing for different purposes. Just like you can use advertising for different reasons or webinars or whatever. So it's really more of just about being intentional, knowing how it aligns with your strategy and then using some of the tips you shared, which is like pick the right people, activate them in the right way, and then have clear milestones of how you can measure success.

Speaker B: Yeah, this is the number one thing I see. Um, when I'm selling to the founder for influencer marketing, not just the marketing department, I tell them their sales cycles will speed up. The marketers rarely bring that up.

Speaker A: Only a cmos really think maybe a BP maybe.

Speaker B: And if the CMO is super tied into the SDR function or whatever it is, then I tell them, can you imagine if we could double your, your, your pipeline velocity in a quarter? And when that happens, they're like, holy smokes. This is so much more than impressions and likes. I'm like, people will come to, people will go through the sales cycle faster because they heard Devin talk about something that's worth a lot. It's never mentioned.

Speaker A: And I've had it happen. And I'm not just saying because Goldcast is a sponsor. It's because I, you know, Goldcast is the longest running deal that I've had. Where we started with actually a one off blog years ago, before we got together and then it was a pilot and then it was now two, two and a half years. And I've had people speaking of dark social, you know, posting stuff on LinkedIn, doing events with them, what have you. And then I'll go to a different event unrelated, and a, uh, CMO VP director will come up to me like, hey, so like real quick, like I saw that You, I think, are doing something with Goldcast. Like, is it legit?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I'm like, oh, yeah, it is. Like, I don't, you know, and I give them the whole spiel. Like, I don't just sign up for everyone. And they're like, all right, cool, cool. Because I was thinking of bringing them to my cmo, but I wasn't sure. And so it's like, even if they never liked that post, DM'd or whatever, you are getting a level of actual influence and people are resonating with it, they are talking about it and like to get a heat check like that, either with me or I'm sure other people too. Like, that's valuable and that's that word of sparking, word of mouth.

Speaker B: Exactly. Social proof, word of mouth, expediting sales cycles, all of it.

Speaker A: So we've talked about helping marketers get better at influencer marketing. Let's talk about creators. So what separates creators who consistently get deals versus those who don't?

Speaker B: Yeah. So the consistent ones turn into pseudo consultants. And I love that. So if you look at my top earners and then just people I've heard about in the industry as well, who people are like, wow, we love working with so and so because we're also subject matter experts on LinkedIn. It's not like we're, you know, do the Entertainment stuff on TikTok and Meta M and all that, um, bringing that, that discipline, that business, the business acumen and going in and saying, hey, we love this idea you just did, but have you thought about doing X something that small versus just like, this is a campaign deliverable. Like, I'm gonna nail that. Campaign deliverable. You get the best video. But have you also thought about this, this and this, those? That's the difference that I've seen where, where brands are like, I must renew with this person. They care about my business like they're on the team. Um, and I've seen some creators who are just like, no, that's not in the agreement. I'm not gonna do that. And then I've seen others being like, how can one plus one equal three? And those with the transformative mindset are the ones who are more likely to really get those, those bigger deals. Um, the other thing I've noticed is there is something to be said about being overly selective. So I have, I've met some creators who, uh, who don't want to work with like, like 90% of the people I've brought in front of them. And then sometimes they'll Be like, hey, like, what's coming? I'm like, you turn down seven offers, at some point you're going to need to commit to some. Something.

Speaker A: What are the reasons why people. Why are they saying no to so many things?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, some, sometimes it's, ah, I've heard, I've heard it. I've heard it all. One, um, is like, I don't use them, which is probably, that's probably like, that's a fair one. Uh, I'm like, are you open to using them? Getting a demo? Are you open to, like, learning? No, I don't see how it's going to fit. Okay, so you've no check, but that's gone. Another one is I, I, this person, this brand works with 20 other creators and I don't like the style of like 10 of them.

Speaker A: I'm like, oh, association, association.

Speaker B: That could be fair. Um, and then another one would be, um. Oh, I heard they did that. They did a campaign in the past that I didn't agree with. Again, association, but in a different way.

Speaker A: Well, then someone's like, values. Yeah, a little bit too. Or style. Or style. It could be what they said.

Speaker B: There's a style thing, right? There's sometimes, like, I've never heard of this brand. They're only going to, you know, bring my entire, like, level down. Right. No matter how much money they want to spend. So those things do matter to different people. Right? Um, if you want consistent deals, though, there is a degree of flexibility that needs to come to the table with it. There are, at the end of the day, only so many brands that are going to spend the money and premiums that you want to make it worth your time. Um, so the mix of being an entrepreneur and flexibility will get you more consistent deals, especially as this category is just growing right now. It's not that fixed. Let's go. How much of money is coming to influencer marketing on LinkedIn? It's still growing, so if you want to be that first mover in this space, gotta be flexible.

Speaker A: What mistakes do creators make when they're marketing themselves online?

Speaker B: Are you gonna get me in trouble? Um, sometimes this is a hot take.

Speaker A: I want. I mean, dude, we've been talking for an hour. I hope you're heated up by now. Give me the real deal.

Speaker B: Sometimes I feel like if you're, if you're sharing, if you're sharing too much of, too much of the personal, uh, too much of the inspo fluff type of stuff, it's out. You get a lot of followers, get

Speaker A: A lot of likes.

Speaker B: But you love views but you're not going to get deals.

Speaker A: Why do you think that is?

Speaker B: I've seen it. I've actually we've, we've, we've lost two creators who were test their test cases. Not in sales, marketing. Uh, we had two creators who have phenomenal engagement, phenomenal followers, like a thousand. Like I'm talking like five digit likes in 48 hours. And when I took them to brands, they're like, we don't know what this person talks about. Subject matter, expert wise people know them,

Speaker A: people like them, but they don't trust themselves.

Speaker B: People love the person. But uh, how are you solving for X? Like how can you, how will this be a CRM solution? How will this be that solution?

Speaker A: How can you imagine that? How does this inspo fluff help us sell CRM?

Speaker B: M. Yeah, well, and that did happen. Uh, and it doesn't have to be just for sales and marketing. Like there's HR tech out there, there's fintech out there, there's all these different, all these different brands that want to invest. And very rarely on LinkedIn do they come for just impressions. They need to align themselves with ambassadors who can go deeper. Right. And if they can't see that in your content, you're not going to land those long term deals.

Speaker A: Influencer marketing, I would say on LinkedIn has been buzzing for, I would say we're kind of in like probably since beginning of last year, I would say. So beginning of 2024, I would say it's really felt like it heated up in Q4 of that year. And now where do you think we are right now in 2025?

Speaker B: Yeah, we're, we're making a big move now where you have the big agencies, the big media agencies are coming to LinkedIn in a way that they haven't before. They're no longer just looking at B2B brands, they're looking at B2C brands that they can bring to LinkedIn. This is the tipping point. People will now start coming after the person behind the professional. And not just the professional. They want to know about Devin Reed's routine. How are you a successful entrepreneur who loves sneakers and is a girl? Dad. They want to know about what audiobooks you listen to. How is it that you've inspired a partner to post and get out of her show? These are personal conversations. Mhm. Right. And when that happens, uh, it's no longer about CRMs and all those things. It's about the, you know, lifestyle brands, routine brands, travel brands. I'M still shocked that we don't have a massive airline brand talking to the traveling professional. What the hell? Or hospitality.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point.

Speaker B: The corporate traveler, like you're spending money on business accounts like for the most part. If you're working for W2 and you're flying to inbound, how come United Airlines or Delta is not own that on LinkedIn?

Speaker A: Right. It's a good point.

Speaker B: Makes no sense.

Speaker A: You think it's coming?

Speaker B: Oh yeah, we're talking to them. Right. So, so, so, so there's, there's, there's a lot coming. I believe in hospitality, luxury, retail. Where do I burn my, my commission check as a sales rep? Where do I invest in wealth management, wealth creation, all those wealth management stuff,

Speaker A: uh, hasn't hit the sales audience.

Speaker B: It's an education thing. We're talking to, you know, talking to a bunch of companies now. Um, so, because, but those big companies that run it on Instagram and all that, they run it with those agencies of record. So VP of marketing at Wealth X company is relying on their hold co agency to bring it to them. So now we're going to start selling to the agencies.

Speaker A: What do you think the next couple years look like? Does it get hotter and hotter? Is there tipping points or burnout moment?

Speaker B: What do you think, uh, what do

Speaker A: you think the future isn't like after this year?

Speaker B: Well, you just got to study the other channels. This has already happened on Instagram, Snapchat, Tick Tock, Pinterest and, and the others. You're going to see a whole spike of new entrants of creators who bring in the TikTok video vibe. We have this LinkedIn creator, like what do you call it? The spectrum. On one side you're going to be like the subject matter expert. I'm the CRO that teaches you how to be a CRO. And then you're going to have the entertainer, the behind the scenes, the video, the personality who's going video first and saying this is how I do cold calling or this is how I dress up for work. It could be something as light as that too. And you're going to have this mix in the spectrum where brands are going to want. Some brands are going want people closer to the middle. Some are going to want pure entertainment, some are going to want that corporate practitioner. So we need to, you need to be aware of what type of, where do you fall on that spectrum. And then as more people come into that spectrum, prices will come down. So all the premiums that the creators are enjoying Right now there is a level of this where it comes down because brand options will increase which means they're going to pilot in a different way. Then it's going to go back up post pilot results when they realize Devin was just too good. Right. So that's just the natural wave. Uh, and I've studied it for quite

Speaker A: some time on the spectrum of corporate practitioner and on the other side being just uh, called highly entertaining. Where do you think Devin Reed falls and where do you think I should focus?

Speaker B: I would say you're more on the subject matter expert side. And over the last year I've seen you like with. Read between the lines. We're getting more personal. A lot more personal stories come up. I've noticed you posting more about family and the importance of just. I think just a couple days ago you posted about um, there was a time when you would have you. I think you missed a big moment for. Roomie.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Am I allowed to say her name? I'm so sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I knew the name. I didn't know if I was allowed to say her name. Yeah. So you missed a big moment for your daughter Rumi and you're like never again. And you have non negotiables with Charlie. Mhm. Right. That I don't know would have happened a year or two ago for sure. Right. So you're now going closer to the middle where you're talking more about something that most likely would have been on Facebook or Instagram back in the day. So we're going to see a lot more of that. Again, the person behind the professional.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And the more you embody that and the more you do it on video, these two things and the more you put your face on things, pictures and all that, you're going to start moving to. Towards the middle. Uh now in terms of where you should focus, I think you're, you're doing it exactly right because now I could market you to the corporate brands, the B2B like hey, we need the content marketing genius. And then when, when we get something cool for uh, for you know, the sneaker deal that we've always manifested, they'll see that there's a lifestyle play here too.

Speaker A: I appreciate that a lot and I would, I credit you and Shali for uh, either directly uh, pushing me Shali or uh, indirectly pushing me Anish, uh, to sharing more of the personal stuff Shali and I have talked about a lot. Is um, you know, she, she's like very honest with me as if you know, Shali, she Always is of, like, uh, people know you as the content guy or the marketing leader, and I have a very, um, call it maybe curated approach to social media. And she's like, you know, people want to get the other side of you. Like, who are you? A little bit more at home and stuff. And I've always felt a little, um, reluctant because one, uh, I struggle with. What I think a lot of people struggle with was like, y' all care about that. Yeah, like, y' all care about that. Okay, I guess I'll share. And then the other one is, um, probably a little bit of insecurity or fear of rejection of, like, if I show you. I mean, my sneaker deal, you know, my sneaker closet is not very risky. But, you know, hey, if I open up about, uh, a moment where I think I failed as a dad, right? Or, uh, you know, something failed and in personal or business, am I going to lose some of that credibility that I have been working so hard for five years, six years to build? And so I have been kind of dabbling little by little, and Shelly and I have come up with this concept that I call, um, it's time to show the whole iceberg.

Speaker B: Oh, I like that.

Speaker A: So, yeah, it looks like, Dev, you've got whatever, 90,000 followers. And this, this and this. And it's like, wow, you kind of have it all figured out. It's like, I tell people that I've had spiraling moments, moments of burnout, mental health, anxiety, panic attacks, and they're like, wait, you. And they're like, you can see it in their eyes when I say it in small forms of like. And then they open up and like, I also had to take some time off, or I've also done this. And that's the stuff that has been landing. And I don't do it for the sake of, uh, let me get these likes up. I'm doing it very intentionally, and I'm sharing this with folks who may be in the same category of wanting to but not feeling comfortable. I do it for, like, the, uh, the raving fans or the people who are gonna identify with that exact challenge that I'm talking about, right? Being a working dad with dad guilt, wondering, am I doing enough to make money? Am I being present enough? I'm sharing that. And hopefully that, that dad, that working mom, um, whomever feels that and feels validated, not man, I hope if I post this dad video, I get 200,000 views, right? I hope I get 2,000 views. If it's 2,000 people, that it Helps, you know what I mean? So that's my approach and how I'm trying to kind of evolve my, my brand and my reputation. Um, but I'm also aware, um, but I'm also aware that I think still having that kind of corporate, um, or actually I'm aware that having that, that professional credibility is still very important. Like, I'm never going to leave that completely behind to be a personality.

Speaker B: No, no. And I think, I think first of all, any. Anyone that uses their children to get views and likes, and that's the intention. I don't even want to know what's happening at home.

Speaker A: I put emojis on their faces. I don't even actually share pictures of my kids. I. I put. I'll put a family picture and I put my heart emojis on their faces. If you want to see the family, this is what I'm comfortable.

Speaker B: That's why I was like, can I even say room is.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, yeah, people know the kids,

Speaker B: but, um, uh, anyone who would do that, just not a person we want to affiliate with anyways. But, um, there's a big. The big, like, movement between, do I like the person? Do I love the person? And I think the more you humanize yourself as a creator, influencer, practitioner, subject matter expert, whatever, you get more people to love you. Like, that's what it is. Like, you're. They're moving on that spectrum and be like, I'm such a big fan of, of Devin Reed. Not only is a brilliant marketer, it's great, dad.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And he actually reminded me that maybe it's not always important to, you know, hit the deadline at the expense of family.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Uh, so I think, I think that's the big thing. Like when you, when you do it the right way and you got people to love you instead of like you. Those are your raving fans. They're the ones who subscribe to your newsletter. They're the ones who do all those other things. So, um, yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Speaker A: And I think you can feel that too, on the receiving end when you're, you know, consuming someone content or interacting with them, you can tell pretty quick who really is trying to help.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And who's really just like the phony, you know, like, I'm trying to help you, but really I'm trying to help myself.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so it can't really be faked. And I think people are starting to catch on to that now that social media. Social media's obviously never been around. But in on LinkedIn seeing different influencers and personalities come up and so, um, yeah, it's been uh, it's been challenging, man. You can see my smile. I'm like, it's uh, it makes me a little uncomfortable, but I'm leaning in and doing the best I can.

Speaker B: No, I think you're doing great.

Speaker A: Well, what is next for you and Wishly? What's the next big bet that you're banking on?

Speaker B: Yeah, so we're uh, we're going to be spending a lot more money on uh, activations and events. We're going to be running our own content houses. Uh, I'm going to put it out there. So I'm helping make it real, manifested, manifest it. Uh, I want to host the first ever LinkedIn classic where we take 36 of the top, uh, revenue professionals and 36 of our best creators and they all play golf together. So glad I just picked uh, up golf. Uh, yeah, I gotta start but I actually David, David Meltzer took me to the Masters and I got to meet some really executive people at like Taylor Made and these golf brands and I pitched the idea, they all lost it. They're like, yes, this is exactly what it is. So now we got to work with LinkedIn to see if we can use their name and all that. But I love that I've already planted the seed with some folks at LinkedIn. They loved it. Um, so if we did this annual LinkedIn classic, like this is where I see like the again person behind the professional. It's two things coming together there. Um, and then the other thing is the Wishly Summit. We have 30 of the best subject matter experts on the planet. I truly believe that. Can you imagine what would happen if we all met to like we saw this just the last, last two days I was at the Adobe Express Summit.

Speaker A: That's right, yeah.

Speaker B: With uh, nine wishly creators. First time we've had that many people together. And as much as the value with Adobe was phenomenal, like we gave them value, they gave us value. Um, the collaboration between the nine and the energy was like, hey, you know, if you do this. Oh, they're taking notes each other insane. We have 30 of the best. If we brought them together, I think we could do a lot more, be better creators but also better business, business professionals as well.

Speaker A: Well, I love both ideas. Uh, if my golf game's not up to par by the time it's time to play, let me get in that hosting game, let me be the MC that I would love that. Yeah, you could have some fun awards like craziest outfit. Yeah. We could have some fun. I'm not gonna win that one. Best sneakers would be my, my.

Speaker B: We'll see. We'll see.

Speaker A: Uh, well, M man, thank you for stopping by, hanging out with me, as always, sharing your excellent expertise and your experience, man, I always appreciate you.

Speaker B: Appreciate you. Thank you.

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