How to Get Executive Buy-In for Bold Marketing Ideas (with Adam McQueen & Grayson Ottenbreit, Klue)

Speaker A: Yo, I'm, um, Devin Reed and I'm on a mission to build a bigger and more inspired career as a marketer, creator and entrepreneur. After 10 years in sales and marketing and leading content for billion dollar SaaS startups, I know one thing. Learning from the best will help me reach my potential. Let's ride. That's why I'm traveling America for unfiltered street level conversations about creativity, marketing and playing by your own rules. This season we're in Vegas because the theme is betting on yourself and taking creative risks. Because the biggest wins of my career came from the all in moments that others called crazy. Are you ready? This is Read between the Lines, the show for people who want to achieve phenomenal results. Are you struggling to get executive buy in on your bold marketing ideas? Most teams are. And not because the ideas aren't good, but because risk feels, well, dangerous. So today we're bringing on two marketers who are done playing it safe. Adam McQueen and Grayson Ottenbreit. From Clue. Adam went from sports journalism and sales to SaaS Marketing and Grayson went from a creative director at an agency before jumping into B2B. Now they're co pilots of one of the most original content strategies in the game. In this episode of Read between the Lines, we dive into why creative freedom is part of koo's culture and how they earned it. What it really takes to launch big marketing bets and a deep dive behind their content strategy that I'm a massive fan of. Let's just say it's rare for B2B marketing to be this entertaining and this effective. Oh, and by the way, they had no idea they were about to be on the show. It was a complete surprise. More on that in a second. Are you ready? Let's ride. Shout out to our sponsor, Goldcast. They are the B2B video content platform. They know that video is the most effective medium for engaging audiences and building long lasting brand relationships. And they do more than just host amazing digital events. They recently released Content Lab, which is an AI powered video tool that I use to turn long form content into branded clips in minutes, not hours. And it's cool because you can use your digital event footage or upload video files. To open your account, go to Goldcast IO or hit the link in the show notes. Now onto the show. Well, let's start with the fact that you guys had no idea you were going to be on the show until about 12 hours ago.

Speaker B: Yeah, surprised to say the least. When you see Devin, when you think you see a, uh, uh, a Driver in an airport, and you start filming Hitman.

Speaker C: Hitman. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Hat, brim, glasses, Covid mask on people. Your boss has said you're going somewhere. I'm not going to tell you where. I almost dropped my bag.

Speaker C: And Vegas.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. They can take me out to the middle of desert, dig up a hole. I'm gone. But what a surprise.

Speaker A: Yeah. Stoked to be here. Well, what a surprise. And what a prize to have you here. So, uh, the theme of this season is taking, uh, bets, betting on yourself, creative risks. And so I thought, what better way to start the season than, uh, to shoot my shot with your CEO? And so what happened was I was starting to plan out the season, and I was like, who do I want to talk to now? Giving you your flowers openly. It was, you two are first on my list. And so I was like, I got to get Adam and Grayson out here. Um, but I want to completely surprise them. And I don't know why. There's really no reason. We don't know each other well enough to probably do it. Um, so I DM'd your CEO, Jason. Um, I slid in the DMs pretty hard. I was pretty aggressive. I sent a three and a half minute voicemail that was not very good. And, and basically, uh, pitched the idea of, like, hey, I respect, uh, you know, clues, marketing. I like Adam and Grace, and I want them on the show. Can, um, you cover T and E. But, uh, you know, when they get here, I'll cover everything and we'll. And we'll do. And by the way, uh, I want it to be a complete surprise. Um, let me know if that's cool or, like, not so cool. And, uh, here's. Here's his response, which I thought was kind of legendary.

Speaker C: Pull it up.

Speaker A: So within. Within four hours, which is pretty impressive.

Speaker C: That's good turnaround for.

Speaker B: Yeah, Jason.

Speaker C: That's better than he gets with me on Slack.

Speaker B: God, if I was dating Jason, I'd be very proud of how quickly he responded to me.

Speaker A: So this was two months ago from, uh, roughly today. He says, uh, Devin, much mutual respect from Clue to you. This is the single most nut bar, hairball content schemes I've heard of. So many things could go sideways. No risk, advertent, venture backed, enterprise focused CEO in their right mind would green like this. I'm in 100. Let's go.

Speaker C: Thank you, Jason.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: So I was like, I knew I liked you guys and I knew I liked Clue. And the fact that the CEO responded so quickly and so, like, all in really shows that there is a culture of creativity at, uh, Clue. So where does that come from?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, if I can speak on like on my behalf, I think, like, as cheesy as it sounds, I feel like it's a top down thing. Like there's a lot of space. I mean, every week we have on Fridays, it's a whole company wide thing where people are sharing half baked ideas. Some things that never get to see the light of day, um, some things that are like pretty much complete. Like every time we film a new piece of content, we premiere it to everyone there, gets everyone hyped up. So like the following week we can post it. So, like, that's weekly. So, uh, it's pretty impressive to see like the open floor and the space given to people to just show like, hey, I'm working on this. It might suck, it might fail. Um, and Jason's there every time, every executive's there. So I think it's like seriously a top down thing.

Speaker C: I know this is something that like comes uh, up a lot. Like a CEO that gets marketing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And that's like a. I joke with you last night, like, uh, I feel like a homeschooled kid because some people like, oh, I've dealt with the CEO that didn't get it or wanted to see ROI right away. And like, I've just been blessed. When I came into Clue and we were like, maybe 35, 40 people, like early marketing hire, like, Jason was just like, here's like, he really like had trust in Katie, like my boss and was like, I believe in whatever you're gonna do. And it sort of like sets the tone right. Of like, rather than like, no one wants to be micromanaged or have every step of like whatever they're working on, especially marketing as a creative process. Like, uh, inspector, like with a magnifying glass. It's like we're looking for this outcome. You go figure out the best way to get to that outcome. And I think that's kind of how, how stuff's kind of started there.

Speaker B: Totally.

Speaker A: I had the same thing when I was at Gong, because we also had a CEO that got marketing and a CMO that took bets. And so I had the same thing where people reach out. And I was kind of like, I don't, I don't know. I don't. I don't have that issue until I went to another company and then I was like, oh, this is what marketing is usually like for 99% of everyone. So when you guys joined, was it kind of like immediate. You had a long leash or like, how did you earn that creative freedom?

Speaker C: So I'll tell my story. Like, I came in to clue the marketing team. I knew nothing about marketing. I don't. I kind of stumbled ass backwards, um, from journalism. I don't. Katie took a shot on me, whatever. Uh, and we get there and I don't know what to do with, with content or marketing. And I remember, uh, getting the Google sheet of keywords, search volume, rankings. And it's like, this is what we're doing for our content right now. And I'm like, all right, I'm gonna, like, I guess I'm gonna write some terrible blogs. And I wrote some trash blogs. Like, so, so bad. I'm writing on a subject matter, competitive intelligence. I know nothing about no source material, nothing. And I'm just putting like, terrible work out into the world for the first couple months of my job and I still don't know what I'm doing. And there was this moment with Katie where she, like, was talking to me and she just said, adam, like, you should interview people more. You're really good at asking questions and you're really curious. That's what I think your superpower is. And it's kind of ironic that I didn't think of that. Coming from like a journalism M school, I was like, I don't know anything about this subject matter right now, but, like, I gotta go. And like, that's how we started when I was the one man show of our rinky dink podcast of just interviewing our customers, learning from people that were like the best in the biz. And like, I think that, like, creativity came from just like my, uh, boss seeing where my potential was and, uh, like, pushing me to that way. And then it started to unlock. And I'll say a second thing, because we're on Devin showed. Like, that was one thing to push me that way. Um, the second thing was like, I always look for, like, benchmarks for good, even in my, like, sporting career, even with, like, friends I, like, admire. Like, I always like to see like, what good looks like or. Because, uh, I think that's kind of like a farce in marketing that every idea comes from scratch. Or do you need to be precious and like, once you see what goods looks like out there. I remember again doing marketing. I took a HubSpot course with SEO. Like, I barely. My eyes couldn't stay open. I didn't know what I was doing, but I had the certification. Anyways, um, I get into this, this Started a Clue job. And this is when Gong, the Gong rocket ship's taken off and what you're doing. And I even Jason would call out stuff like, look what Gong's doing. And it was just like opened my mind to be like, oh, this is what my career could look like. So the stuff you were doing with like GONG Labs and data, things you were doing with video, like going into this brand of like showing the human side, bringing like humor to, to uh, your audience. It was like, oh, like there's a whole world of possibilities, uh, to open up. So that was just sort of like the Nexus for like my boss, like pushing me to think different and then seeing what different looked like. And those two things like I always think back to was just kind of like the starting point for a lot of the marketing strategy.

Speaker A: That's rad, man. That's very cool.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think like for me, um, uh, like when I saw that I was hired at clue in like 2021, um, so a couple years ago, 15, 23 years ago, been there for quite a while. Um, but, um, the kind of that. Anyways, um, the, the job posting, I like, I, I just come out of, uh, university, uh, and I was a property manager for a year. Just to say a flow. It was ridiculous. I shouldn't be managing anyone's property. But, uh, it was the first like marketing related job because I went to school for marketing. But the job posting, which I think obviously you wrote was like, I'd never seen a job posting like that. It was like, we're looking for funny, we want to film video. It was like so stand out from any other like marketing job. Everyone's like, you have to like have 25% in SEO and like all of these like really jargony words. But you guys were just like, we want someone funny. We want someone who's like willing to like, try to make different type of like video content. And I was like, this is exactly what I'm looking for. So I knew like from the jump that this job was going to be like, okay, we're making, we're going to try to be creative. It's not like this, uh, hit your metrics, KPI at all costs kind of thing. So it was really like, it was really refreshing to see that after going through like 70 job applications.

Speaker C: So, yeah, I, uh, got to tell the story now. I got to tell my like hiring Grayson story because like, my first.

Speaker A: I was going to ask anyway. I had to.

Speaker C: This is my first ever professional. And this is another thing with creativity Zone. You bring great people on. And one of the biggest things I've learned, you're over there says we're going to, this is going to be weird saying it but like one of the biggest things you can do, the best thing you can do in your career is hire someone exceptional for sure. And so when Grayson came in and like took stuff to another level too, like that's like fuel to the fire as well. Um, so it starts top down but then people you bring in level it up, level it up. But uh, as it relates to the Grayson I. So first ever professional hire, entry level social media. So you're getting a wide swath of candidates from a varying quality level and we're still really scrappy startup. So if I look back now like my hiring process working with like, like uh, talent team, I'm like this is chaotic. And I remember it was Friday after that all hands meeting you mentioned and I'm chaos. I've gone through so many bad interviews and I'm like uh, we have our interview in about 10 minutes and I'm like shit. So anyway it was like five, 10 minutes before the call. I pull up the resume. I'm like I don't care about a resume. Like cool, you got your marketing degree. Don't care. Go to portfolio and there's just a series of videos and you know in the video in your Google files like 0014Movie or whatever, there's no naming, there's no label. It's just like 20 videos. I'm like what the f. Alright, let's see.

Speaker A: I would have guessed you had really weird zany titles like words where you're like what? And you click it and that word actually doesn't even appear in the video.

Speaker C: There's a little Easter egg. So I click on one literally right before our uh, interview. And it turns out Grayson did sketch comedy with his high school buddy. And it's a scene of him doing his property management job and he's just sitting back on a rocking chair, just picking his nose like the deep in there, going deep to the brain. And then his boss comes in with a really important person, freaks out, doing the classic Grayson kind of stumbling, bumbling, goes to shake his hand and just a booger wipes onto the guy's hand. And then you just have this moment of just awkward, just the most cringe worthy awkward and I am pissing my pants laughing. Then that's the only context I have. Before our interview get right on and he's like all nervous being all professional and I'm like, dude, I just saw you go like second knuckle deep into your nose, like you're hired.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then it's yours to lose. When he started, the first thing I remember you were sitting next to me and uh, Jason comes back, goes, oh, you're the booger guy.

Speaker B: Hello sir. Nice to meet you.

Speaker A: So that was like with your hand

Speaker B: real quick trying to wipe. Oh, sorry, I'm trying to wipe a booger off of it. Yeah, that was a, uh, that's. That was what you put in your portfolio, folks, is. Yeah. Anyways, yeah, I was like my portfolio was made up purely of skits that I had made. I had no like prior like social media thing, so I was just hoping that someone was gonna like it. They were all ridiculous. I'm just glad that was the one you watched because there's other ones in there that bombed.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean though, that comes with the territory.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: When you're taking the call. Creative risks or just big ideas, it's like, you know, like even, even great stand up comedians, by the time you see their special, it's all the hits. Mhm. But if you ever go to like the small comedy clubs, you see some jokes that just. Crickets.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so I think you have to be okay saying you know what to get the big laughs. I'm okay getting a few crickets here and there. And like no one bats. Like it's kind of cliche, but no one bats a thousand unfunny videos. Yeah. It doesn't happen.

Speaker C: It's like getting reps, man. Actually there's one mantra we sometimes say too. And it's kind of like freeing is like, nobody cares.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Nobody cares. Like when you put out bad stuff, like people have their preoccupied, they have their own world, whatever. They're not fretting over like your post that flop, whatever. They're just on to the next thing. M. And so it's kind of like a freeing kind of mindset I think, to have too.

Speaker B: Yeah. Like I feel like we always think that if we're like if we post something and then we have to post like a version of it again or whatever. I'm like, oh, everyone's going to remember we posted it. This is embarrassing. What are we doing? Like we should. It's like, no, I've never remembered. Like, oh, they posted that a month ago. What are they doing posting that again? They're out of content ideas. It's like we're supposed to like no one really cares. Like it's just. Yeah. Have A little fun with it.

Speaker A: And you guys market to marketers. And so, uh, when they see the post again, if they even see it again, and if they remember it, they're. They're probably like, oh, yeah, that's because it did well. So they're recycling.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I do it all the time. But, dude, a video hits. Why would I only show it once? I've got LinkedIn posts. I've really copied and pasted text six times over three years. Yeah, just let it run. It's like, uh, it's like reruns of, like, Fresh Prince of Bel Air Friends. It's like, yo, they replay it for a reason.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: People like it and people will watch it again or share it. So. So it's like, yeah, there's no. No shame in that.

Speaker B: I think you do a good job of, like, I've seen posts where I'm like, oh, he's just. It's the same, like, pov. It's the same, like, idea, but just packaged slightly differently. And I think that's, like, a big skill to have because sometimes I feel like I'm not. I'm always like, oh, are they going to know? But, like, you do that in a good way. That I think is, like, very natural.

Speaker A: So. And people will be like, oh, is it because I work with CEOs on their LinkedIn, and after a couple months, like, I feel like I'm being kind of repetitive or saying similar things, and I'm like, correct. Uh, that's like, kind of the goal. And it's like, how many POVs do you expect? Like, how many points of view can you have? And it's like, if you sell competitive intelligence or what have you, like, like, there's only so much room in that lane. Does it make sense to go outside of it just for the sake of diversifying the content, you know?

Speaker C: And simplicity sticks, man. Like, simplicity sticks. And so, like, having a single point of view or a very simplified message. And, like, I've come to appreciate a, uh, ton working with product marketing. Like, I think we market to product marketers, but having product marketing that can guide us with, like, put guardrails on us with, like, really tight messaging, then we can go nuts on creativity. Um, and that's. That's all anchored in, like, a really simple and, like, succinct point of view. And I remember. I remember hitting you up on a newsletter where you wrote about that, like, what is your point of view? And I remember we didn't have a prime market at the time. I'm like, we need this more. Like, sometimes when I feel like I'm thrashing or our creative ideas aren't landing with Katie, it's like, oh, it's because it wasn't anchored in that.

Speaker A: So that's something I really, uh, have admired and noticed is. So there's what, uh, I call edutainment content. I did not make that up, but edutainment, right. So it's educational and entertaining and you guys do a great job of that. But what I've also noticed is a lot of companies will over index on the entertaining. And so you watch their video or, you know, whatever type of content, and you may like it, but you don't know what they do. Yeah, like, they miss the, like, the uh, educational aspect in terms of even just like, awareness of what the company actually does. And we were kind of, uh, teasing like, you know, the Hot Ones remakes are a great example of that, where it's like, you might get views because it's funny to watch people struggle with hot sauce. But like, if at the end of the video, I don't know what you do and sell, it's kind of like, yeah, you got attention, but you didn't convert it into growth or, you know, audience or anything like that. But you guys have done a great job. And, uh, we'll dive into examples in a little bit, but where every single one, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. That's what they do. It's super clear who you sell to, what you offer, problems you solve, and then you wrap it around in like, funny, entertaining, outrageous things. Yeah. And so that, that twofold approach, I think works really well for you guys. And it's something not a lot of people, I think, uh, have kind of mastered.

Speaker B: I think we, like, that's like somewhat. Not like somewhat recently, but that's something that we like when we first started to make, uh, skits because, like, right out of the gate when I joined, like, the plan was like, we're making skits, we're making funny stuff. Because that was like part of the job posting and we got a lot of like, attention for some of the skits and funny things we were doing, but there wasn't a whole lot of bridging the gap between what Clue does and like, the entertaining. Like you're saying. Yeah, and that's something that we have been like, incorporating more and more. So that wasn't like, right off the bat, we kind of like got the laughs first and realized that, like, laughs are good, but it's not the be all, end all. There has to be, like, a relatability. Um, and that came with time. But, like, yeah, it's definitely. It's more of a challenge, but it feels better. Like, I feel like the feedback you get from your customers or your ic whoever you're selling to, is a lot more strong when they can actually see that.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Like, yeah. I mean, yeah.

Speaker C: I mean, we'll maybe sit on some of the Clueless stuff, but that was, like, the most rewarding thing I felt as well, seeing.

Speaker A: Let's get into Clueless. Forget the. Forget the story arc that I wrote and share. Let's get into Clueless. So, uh, for those, uh, who are unfamiliar, Clueless with a K is a mini movie that you guys made. I think it's like, 17, 18 minutes long. Um, let me describe it, then correct me, because I think it'd be fun for, like, your audience and a fan to tell you how I perceived it. So I would say it is the best parody of the Office, the TV show the Office that I've seen. And basically what it is is Grayson is a, uh, an idiot sales rep. Like, that's what you play because you're good at acting.

Speaker B: What kind of podcast is this?

Speaker A: But that's what makes it funny. So you're following your character, and you're basically going around in the, uh, the show, the Office style, um, struggling to get a deal across. You work with your product marketer, you end up getting the deal. And they're like, you know, there's a nice. There's a nice resolution, uh, at the end. So someone had sent it to me, not you guys had sent it to me that day. And it was like, oh, because it's YouTube, I'm gonna literally open up a window. I'll minimize it for my workday, and then later, I'm gonna come back to it. I have said that sentence in my head no less than 10,000 times, and I almost never go back to that window, you know, where it sits there all week. And then Friday, when I close the laptop, I'm like, well, didn't make it to this one. Just exit out. But I watched your guys. So I remember I pulled my kids down for bed. I go back, uh, into my room, and instead of having the TV on, I opened up my laptop, and I was like, I actually want to watch this. And so I click play. And about a minute in, I pause it, and I grab my wife, Charlie. I'm like, you got to watch this with me. You got to come check this Out. And so we watched it together. I'm laughing, I'm taking notes, because again, there's pockets where you had earned. You'd earned my attention with the laughs and the relatability and you like, you know, almost falling out of your chair and all these funny things. And then it wrong. I don't know, 9:12 minutes. Somewhere in there, there's this pocket of like, oh. And now they're like pitching, but it doesn't feel like a pitch. It's just explaining what they do. And you've earned the right, you know, for this kind of 30 second spot of like, okay, like, jokes aside for a sec, like, we are a tech company and this is what we do. But it didn't break the fluid. The, uh, fluidity or the tone, which I think is really hard to do. So I'm like, man, that's fine, it's brilliant. Then it kind of goes back into like, more funny land. But you guys, you know, wove it together. And then Charlie liked it so much, I think she DM you and was like, we loved it. And so from that time on, when people ask me, hey, Dev, who in B2B or what B2B companies are like, killing in marketing. Like, Clue is the number one answer that I give.

Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker C: It's also an example of just like, there's probably a lot of stuff we've done that isn't as good, but the one thing that's memorable, like, sticks in people's minds too. So it's kind of cool to like, hear that.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's very.

Speaker A: Well, it's like, uh, we talked about SNL and we watch, uh, Saturday Night Live quite a bit. And there's, there's definitely episodes that I think are, ah, kind of suck. Like, they just don't. I don't laugh. At least for me, I didn't laugh. I didn't think it's good. But because there are some great skits and some great episodes, as a fan, you're okay with like, it can't always be a banger.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So even for you guys though, I haven't personally seen anything. Like, I didn't like. I'm sure, as you said, it's out there. I just didn't see it.

Speaker C: It's there. It's something.

Speaker A: If I see it, I'm not like, wow, these guys are lame. And then I like, mentally unsubscribe or action subscribe. It's like, oh, all right. They took a swing. I'm cool. You tried. And I'm Waiting for the next one.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think when you said you started with laughs first. M. I would actually recommend starting with last first and then introducing product. Because the alternative is let's start with product and educational stuff that realistically 95% of your market does not care about. And so now you're like educating, but educating who?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then later you're like, okay, let's try to figure out how to be funny. And then it gets really forced. You've seen people who are like, you know, like, hey, they probably see your videos and they're like, let's do stuff like that. M. But it's not in their DNA, it's not in their culture. They don't have the talent. And so it feels really forced. And so I like that approach and I would actually recommend that to people is like, consider starting on a more entertaining, relatable level and then introduce product.

Speaker B: We were literally just talking about this like the, the brand, like quote unquote brand switch between going from funny or like going from silly or whatever to now educating is a lot less harsh of educating. Like yes, like you said, it seems forced. Like if you set. If people know you as funny, then you can like you keep saying you've earned the ability to go, here's what we do. But if you're just like educating, educating, you're like, now we're silly. People are like, yeah, but you're not. That's not who you are at your core.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It's not really your brand. I don't recognize you as that. And I feel like it feels a lot more drastic of a change going that way versus the other way. So I totally agree.

Speaker C: I also think like when you, when like there's such a battle for like attention or like this attention economy is like not only just funny, I think like relatability too. So we've talked a bunch too. Like when you can get really creative is like find an example of good out there and put a spin on it. And a lot of uh, like maybe ad concepts is like, let's go with something that people know.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Uh, and like feel like, oh, they have that mental like, oh, like for example we did an ad which was like kind of a mock like the sit down of like a Netflix documentary. You know, when every Netflix doc now starts up when they're like filming before they film or the people getting mic'd up sitting down, like check, check. And we like went with that immediately and had like serious vibes and, and like people immediately like, oh, this Is like some documentary style thing. And then you could deliver like one or two jokes. Like, we didn't go too overboard there. But then you like hit with the, with the message, like finding those or like with Clueless is like immediately even through the way that we like kind of shot it, the camera, like, oh, this is going to be like the Office. Right. Um, and so you find those kind of things that people can connect to as well. And then you kind of have. You've earned more trust as well that way.

Speaker A: I think I have realized that M. A lot of marketers, if not most in B2B don't have a creative process or they don't know what their creative process is. Right. So how do you come up with ideas? How do you, uh, build out and refine that idea? How do you pitch that idea? And then ultimately how do you produce the thing? Whatever form it takes. So I want to know how do you guys go from wouldn't it be funny if. To actually publishing some of this content. What did that look like for Clue?

Speaker B: Well, for Clueless, I think, like, to Adam's point earlier about finding places like, for inspiration, um, Air Inked. I don't know if you follow Air Inc. At all. They do like, their digital asset management. They're fat. They do, yeah, I've heard of them. They just like want a webby for a thing with the. The Rizzler. Um, but.

Speaker A: Oh, I saw that post about that. I didn't know that was this insane.

Speaker C: 2025. That's a sentence.

Speaker A: I need to Google that. I think. How do I spell it?

Speaker B: But they did a. Ah, they did kind of like a short film. So we saw them do that and we were like, that's incredible. So it wasn't like, you know, we have tons of examples of places where we've taken inspiration. It's like we would be remiss if we said that it was like all our idea, but we thought that's like something really funny to do. Never seen someone do that before. So that, that was like how it began is we. The impetus was like seeing someone do it, seeing it's possible.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: So we both watched it and talked about it. And then kind of one Friday, like one Thursday in the office. Friday was a Friday. We were just like, we just, we were looking at it. We're like, why can't we do this? Like, let's just do this. And we, that very moment, like, struck while the iron was hot and we sat there and I think like, part of our creative process is me and him work really well at the beginning. And, like, he's very good at the beginning of, like, throwing stuff at, like, uh, the whiteboard and sticking. So I was just sitting there on my computer and he was coming up with scenes like moments that could happen. So he really took on that, like, and that's why in the credits, it's like story by both you and I, because you were just like, this moment, this moment can happen. This moment can happen. This moment can happen. Like, we hadn't built any of the characters yet. All we had was like, we wanted kind of a dumb ae. So that's all we kind of knew. And we were just like, this is a moment. This is the moment. This moment. Um, that was kind of like the. The brainstorming process. And then I went and took it and I wrote the script. And then once I finished the script, I handed back to Adam. He makes some checks and marks. And then at that point, that's when we kind of take it to someone like Katie and go, hey, what do you think about this? So we didn't really get, like, a whole lot of, like, green light early on because we. We felt like it was worth exploring first. Um, and then, like, once we pass it to Katie, she can see what's possible. She can see the vision and go like, oh, I really like this.

Speaker A: Here's.

Speaker B: Maybe we need to incorporate more product stuff like that. Um, so that was like, really fulfilling and like, super seamless process, honestly.

Speaker C: Yeah. Sometimes I think the one thing that man. All facets of life minimize the gap from inspiration to action. When you have that inspiration move, like in anything, it's like, when you wake up, should I go to the gym? Just do it. Don't even think about it. Like, I love that kind of mantra. But I'd say on the, um, on the, like, Katie greenlight front too, I think she, like, always, like, we've built enough trust to have, like, creative liberties. But I think as well, when she's. When you can share it or articulate, like, how does this fit into our strategy and some of the context as well. Like, on my end was we had our first ever conference in person coming up in about two to three months. And so I'm in charge of programming. And, uh, my least favorite part of my job is event programming and coming

Speaker A: up with the content for programming +1.

Speaker C: It is painful because there's just. I don't even want to open this can of worms or become a therapy session. I have to put the feet up. Here, let me.

Speaker B: So it's okay.

Speaker C: Adam, get that therapy. Yeah. Um, so I was working with you kind of go through CS what the customer pain points who are really good customers. We want on stage. What are some of the topics your typical like how to do xyz. Here's the keynote where we're going to have our presentation. And I was just like, I had so much self loathing putting together this Google sheet of just session, session. I'm like, we're in person. This is boring. I'm bored. If I'm bored, I can't fake it. They're gonna be bored. And. And at the same time like we've uh, been just kind of randomly kind of going back and forth of this just like, oh, what, what did they do with this like movie documentary? It was 15 minutes, like what a wild thing. And then it just kind of came to me was like, what if we premiered this at the in person conference? And that's the thing we like close with. Um, and so I kind of shared it to Grace. Like finally we have like, we always have ideas, but it's like where does it fit into what we're like a, uh, lot of the things we're doing from a campaign perspective, what we've already committed to, how do we fit that into what the broader marketing teams are going to accomplish? And so like then it was like, okay, we've kind of put this like jigsaw piece. Now let's just cook on scenes.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker C: And again with Katie, like as soon as I shared that with her, she's like, I trust you on whatever you're going to make. But she's like, oh shit, you're going to premiere this at the conference. I'm so in. Like, I'm so in.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And that was uh, the most like rewarding experience was getting to uh. We did like promo before M, but then we premiered it live in front of like 150 customers.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, and that might be to our first point when we were chatting about like edutainment was like, yet it's hilarious scenes. Like I still cackle every time I think of the scene of you hitting the vape outside or like going like this outside, like literally outside of our office. But there were so many moments and I knew they were coming. So I was so excited of like where the customer felt seen. And um, specifically like our customer base, like when we think of like a message or like relatability, the thing that we knew we could play on is sales marketing tension.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: And specifically for our like product market is helping Sellers against competitors. And sellers just be like, I need this, I need that, I need this as, like, we can play the damn hits there. And there's so many moments where customers came up to you came up to us after. It was like, were you sitting in my meeting room? Like, I've had this before. Like, I am, um, like shivers up my spine kind of thing. And that moment of them feeling seen was.

Speaker B: Yeah. Like, I remember distinctly. It's very rare to get, like, to have the opportunity to show something in person. Like work on, uh, social media. Like, you just put something out there. You have no idea what people are reacting to it. You just see a, like, you see a view, you see an impression. So getting to see that actual, like, in person feedback was really cool. I've never had that in my life. I've never premiered anything, so I have a distinct memory of. I'll shout out Elise Knockles. She was. She's the best. But I was kind of behind her and there was a scene where I was like, yelling something at the product marketer and she, like, threw her head back and was like, yes, yes. Like, it was like it. She could, like, she, it could see. Like she was reliving a moment. Yeah.

Speaker C: Like, sweet relief for her.

Speaker B: So to get that, like, and also, like you said, like, getting feedback from people saying, like, I felt a lot of the comments we got where I felt seen and I've never had that. And that was really cool to be like, oh, we hit like a note there. We, like, we. We resonated beyond just like, this is funny. Um, and like, I still get CSMs, like, to this day that'll be like, yo, like my. My, uh, champion, uh, was like, yo, I love Clueless. Like, that was like, it was. It's super cool to see, like, customers still talk about it.

Speaker C: So especially when you have like zero. We have zero day in the life in this world. And I actually, that's one thing I always appreciate when you're doing your gongs. I was like, I was like, always a little bit jealous. So I'm like, damn, he's a salesperson turned marketer. Like, he's got the cheat code already. Language. And I'm like, sitting there writing my crappy SEO blogs. Like, so competitive intelligence gathering.

Speaker A: It's like, that's trash Webster defined.

Speaker C: But.

Speaker A: Oh, sorry.

Speaker C: I was going to just, um, say one thing on the, um, the creative, uh, when you. When you say, like, we get creative liberties and like, sometimes it is pushback. This was one where we kind of shared a little Bit of concept. We usually, like, don't share everything. But Jason, our CEO, was nervous with this. He's like, especially we're in person. Got big customers there. Like, you don't want to piss people off or go over the line. Like, say, like, there's a lot of going over the line in the movie. And he was, like, scared shitless about what was gonna happen. And he still, like, he was loving it, but he still didn't know what to think after it aired. Even though everyone's in a story and one of our, like, biggest customers right in front of Grace's name just came up and was like, that was the best thing I've seen. Let's go. And Jason's like, okay, any carte blanche now? So who knows?

Speaker A: But have you guys experienced that, too, where when you have the finished products, right, and you're looking at it and you're like, all right, before I go publish this, you're kind of nervous because, like, this is either going to be an absolute banger or it might fall totally flat. Like, my vision, you know, I think it's funny. Or I see it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But will they see it and will it translate? I feel like those are the best outcomes. Yeah. Most of the time they're hits. And the few times where if it. Maybe it doesn't. I wouldn't even say flop. Maybe it just doesn't hit that, you know, Oh, I didn't hit as hard as I'd hoped. You learn from that as well. And so it's like, even still, I tell folks, like, getting comfortable hitting publishers.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: You got to get more comfortable with it because, you know, like we were saying earlier, you're not going to get a hit every single time. Have you guys experienced that, too?

Speaker B: Like something flopping?

Speaker A: No. Or just the concept of being nervous. Like, I don't know, like, Jason. Like, Jason saw it and he had to have in his heart or somewhere be like, this is funny and this is good, but there's a lot of risk if it doesn't, because he's got all his biggest customers there. But he went for it anyway, which I respect. So I'm just wondering, like, have you guys had that same feeling of, like, shit, I don't know.

Speaker B: I was actually slightly nervous with Clueless because, I mean, we were, like, laying into sales. Like, luckily, sales, I think out of all of the departments can take the biggest. They love making fun of themselves. Like an algorithm for sales make. I mean, corporate, bro. Like, this goes on. Um, so I was. But I was a bit Nervous. I'm like, are we going a little too hard into sales? And, like, the. I think the funny thing about Clueless that, like, which really worked was the protagonist wasn't our customer. The protagonist of our story was, uh, sales. So we were, like, we were focusing on sales, and then the person that was helping was product marketing. They only had a couple of scenes, but, like, that was our way of showing how product marketing helps. But we were showing a lot of me yelling at product marketing, saying, you're stupid, like, you're obsolete. I don't care. Like, shut up.

Speaker A: Dismissing them.

Speaker B: So it's like kind of playing that line of, like, is that. Are we making fun of our customer A bit too much? But. So there was a bit of, uh, of trepidation there. But I think, yeah, other than that, I can't really think of anything that was maybe too nervous.

Speaker A: I saw it as a common enemy. A little bit like an adversary, but, like, not a real enemy. Just kind of like, oh, yeah, that's part of the. Like, that's part of the game. Being in house marketers, you got these types of sales reps. Yeah. And then I think, again, having been a sales rep, I was laughing. I was like, I have done or seen everything you've done. I've seen it. Like, it's real. And so I was like, if someone's offended, it's almost like you might not have liked that you were teased, but it's not that it was unfair or out of bounds, you know? Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: I even remember actually when, uh, we cast the product marketer, and that was a really important for us was like, how do we do the product marketer? And we went to Alex, uh, and we're like, you're. You're Jim from the office. You're looking into the camera because you're going to be looking at 100 product marketers. They need to feel seen with you. And she frigging crush, honestly. Also, we didn't even mention, like, all the people on that were Clue employees.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: There was no actors. So, like, Alex Kala, Katie Darian. Darien. Darian kills it. Like, all of these people just, like, supremely talented, like, buy in on this stuff too. Which is, like, really cool. Like, I think it's like, exemplifies, like, the culture.

Speaker A: You could tell their employees, not in the. Not in a bad way. It was like, it made it real. It made it feel like, yeah, these are like our people. My people versus, you know, when you see, like, basically you say a commercial, I just. I just had A slip. And I think that's why when you see actors on behalf of a, uh, SaaS company, like, oh, this is a commercial.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Oh, they're doing the marketing thing to me.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You guys. I would say, like, you guys make videos, you make content. You know, I mean, about the. Like, with the people that you're representing and that, like, your own audience. And I think that's like a very big. It's, uh, like a superpower.

Speaker B: When you, like, when you've done stuff in the past, like Gong, because obviously, like, making videos and stuff, have you had to use employees, like, casting that way? Like, if you're doing, like, a quicker, like, run.

Speaker A: Run only and always. I think. I don't think I've ever hired an actor.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So Gong has. I wasn't part, like. So we did the super bowl commercial. I wasn't part of that because we hired a guy who, like, later we got teased, like, was like, people, uh, corporate bro got mad because he thought that the guy we casted looked like him too much. But I was like, dude, it's just a white dude in blue jeans and a blue blazer. That's, like millions of people. I'm sorry, you're the same as millions.

Speaker C: Not your costume.

Speaker A: So I thought that was funny, and I didn't even see it. Like, I saw the commercial, and then later, I didn't see it, like, oh, UDI got a guy like, corporate bro. I just was like, that's just some dude I've seen a thousand times, you know? So that. That was funny. But, um, I have always done not, uh, actors, normal people. Um, I was like. We did, uh. I went to Amsterdam, and we were at unmuted office, which is an agency out there run by Max. And we did two videos with the same thing, like, all employees. Whereas I wrote the script and I was like, to Jonas there had a concept like, who can hit this line? Yeah. Who can hit this line? Or who can, uh, give this facial expression? Because, like, the scene. You know, sometimes the scene is just.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, quick headshake, and everyone was an employee, and it turns out great. And I think that lack of perfection in acting is what makes these actually better. Like, that little lack of polish. You know what I mean?

Speaker B: Totally.

Speaker C: I'd say. Actually, I got a question for Grayson. I think when you were asking, like, I think the. The starting point, it was, like, creative process. And we've talked about. There's a lot of different ways that we've made different things, and obviously we're sharing Clues. Because that was probably, like, our biggest hit. And there's a lot of different ways, but. But I think the next part from, like, tactical Execution is. I mean, that's where it's made, right? Anyone can have a bunch of ideas, and you need to have that, like, seamlessness, like, of, like. Okay, now, how does this get put into scripting? How do we review that scripting? And then one thing that I think I'd love to hear from your perspective is producing, shooting. Like, how are you coordinating the scenes? How are you thinking about, um, like, nailing the. The moments with different actors and how you, like, navigate that when you're producing that.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, I mean, it's a good question because, like, as you're talking about using employees, I think, like, one of my favorite moments of doing these things is, like, when you realize the person that you've picked is, like, actually good at acting. And you're like, holy shit, come from.

Speaker A: Yeah, my God.

Speaker B: You're, like. You're, like, blown away, and, like, you're, like, clapping at the end.

Speaker A: You're cut.

Speaker B: Yeah, but I think, like, uh. Uh, a lot of it comes down to, like, we actually spend a lot of time in, like, production going, like, okay, for example, clueless. Like, there was a shot list. Like, there was, like, a plan. Like, 15 minutes each shot. Like, we try to keep it organized. So when we were playing, when I was, like, looking at casting, I was, like, spent, like, a decent amount. I think, like, when we're doing project management, I spent, like, two weeks trying to figure out who be the best. Um, and, like, through.

Speaker A: Through.

Speaker B: Mean, you've been on the other end of me being like, okay, do that a little bit this way. Do that.

Speaker C: Oh, dude, he's.

Speaker A: So Grayson comes out. Are you. How are you? Are you. Are you. Are you relentless? Like, are you kind of like, yo, I know how it needs to be relentlessly positive. Oh, that's great.

Speaker C: Like, you'll go, that's fantastic. Let's just do it one more time, though. Yeah. Like, honestly love that. But, like, just try this and just keep the. Doesn't let you stop. Doesn't let you stop to think or be like, what am I doing in front of this camera? What's going on? Like, he just.

Speaker A: I think that's strong, though. So I do a similar thing because I do, like, if I have that vision in my head, like, you know, the look has to look a certain way or whatever, I do the same thing. I'm like, yes, but a little more. But I think if you Give people time. They think about it too much or they'll get in their head. And then you almost get like, the. You know, baseball. You get, like, the yips, and it's like, you can't actually just say the one sentence.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I think it's smart to just kind of stay on people, because they're not professional actors.

Speaker B: No, they're not supposed. That's not what. They're hired. She's. Alex is a talent person. And, like, she just put, like. It was amazing. But, yeah, I think I. I shroud. That sucked and. Great, let's do it again. That's a good way of, like, reframing. That sucked.

Speaker C: So is there any. Is this just within your director and other things in life. You're just packaging out. Put it down. Great. Keep.

Speaker A: Keep it moving right now. They think about it. You've been very complimentary to me, and you've been doing great.

Speaker C: You've been doing fantastic. Ah, there's also just, like, building the pluming is like. I always say it too, with this creative process. I think it's like, the shooting was, like, pretty quick and seamless.

Speaker B: Like.

Speaker C: Yeah, you had it organized out, like, really well. And then it's like, after the fact, like, do you have, like, your systems in place? We're, like, working with the editors. Like, how are you getting this cut up? What's your distribution plan? Like, doing a lot of that work and thinking about that. Like, even one thing we did after is like, okay, we premiered it great in front of 150 people. Um, we don't have, like, massive, massive reach. How do we get organic reach? And we were like, to the customers, because we're like, these people. We've earned their trust. How do we use these people as a microphone? And then we made them ask them to, and they actually. One of the customers came up with the idea at the after party that customers would then do a Rotten Tomatoes review of the movie when we did public release. And then all of our customers, none of them are true, like, influencers or anything like that, but they're like, yeah, I'm gonna share on, like, this the first time they post in a year. And it was. That was a really cool thing.

Speaker B: One of the coolest, like, knock on effects of premiering that we didn't expect was like, we premiered it and then we didn't release it for a month after that. So what actually happened is a lot of the people that were there live in person, went back to their companies and, like, the champions, the customers that were there Were like that clue made this thing. It's really funny. I can't wait for you guys to see it. So in the month between premiering at Compete week and then releasing, we were getting ping, like when is this coming out? Because my customers at like asking for it because uh, like they've been telling their team and like they want to show it at their, at their kickoff. They want to show it at their thing. So that was like a really cool knock on effect of like that, that leaving that space for like desire to come in. People like, we want, we want it, we want to see it. So they want to drop the a bit. It was a bit bigger. That was really cool. Yeah.

Speaker C: Actually I'll shout out Katie too for. I think there's having like a leader that's like can push you in the right spots. I remember we did not put together a good enough plan on how to promote it after the fact.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: She's like, you've made something money. Like don't let this slip. Like go like push on this. And like it was uh. So it's always cool to kind of get that push from someone that's like slightly on that, uh, outside perspective too.

Speaker A: I think too a couple of things you guys talk about, I think one, having, uh, I don't have a better phrase. I don't know that I love thought partner. But like having you know, a writing buddy, whatever you want to call it, uh, wildly underrated. And I had that too. Like a lot of times people say, oh. Because I was on the podcast, I was in the video. People like, oh, Devin's doing it. And I was like, dude, I had a team.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I had writing partners or people that I would bounce ideas off of because you know when something's 80% there but you're too close to it at that point you're like, I need another perspective. And the longer you guys work together, you kind of know what you're going to get like, you know, you just got to get to this point, kick it to him. You know what you're going to get back to, you know, an extent. And that helps, I think one have more fun in the creative process. But it makes it more effective too because you've got this like rhythm down, you know, just like playing sports or whatever.

Speaker C: What was your role then in your thought partnership and who is it with or who are some of the people on this?

Speaker A: So, um, on the zany things, I'd say a lot of times it was probably me kind of leading, but it would be uh, so I had Jonathan cost it, uh, shout out to him. He was migration, my first hire, uh, in my career and I gong. Uh, he's now the senior director over at wizard, so he's, he's done well for himself. Yeah, shout out to Jonathan. And so he was like my guy. Uh, he. His background, speaking of coming from non traditional marketing. He came back from marketing, uh, like, I think it was like, uh, gambling websites or like casinos or something in Europe. So, like, he was like, kind of. Yeah, like, his, his messaging was like, he was scrappy. He kind of had like really direct messaging. He knew, like, your marketing has to matter. It can't. We can't like, be playing games. So when I hired him, he would help me workshop, like email. Ah, copy Dev. This could be sharper. This should be shorter. This story is like, kind of missing a key point. Like, I think in your head you see the story, but it's not on paper. Okay, cool. Nehal Tanani, my second hire. Um, she would be more on some of the creative ideas where she's like, you know, yeah, you could do it this way, but what if you did it as an old school infomercial or. Hey, Dev, what if you just, like, actually were cheesier? I know you don't want to be, but, like, be a little more of it. Like, so when you have these people, same thing, refining your ideas and validating because that's super important. Like, my ideas are good and they are, like, worth keeping. But also pushing you and saying, go a little bit more. Be a little more emotional. Like, uh, it wouldn't like, gong wasn't just because of me. It was like, them. And I obviously hired like, a few more folks after. But when you get that pot of creativity, people bouncing ideas, and then the other person knows, hey, if I come up with an idea, I can kick it to Devin or I can kick it to Jonathan and I will get better. So then we just had like, crossfire in the best way, where everyone's just helping each other work. And then I didn't have to be involved. You know, once you're three, four employees, I'm like, yo, Grayson, Adam, you two just go figure that out. I don't come holler if you want me. And if you have a point of which you want me to, like, give it an approval or whatever, but you don't need me. I don't need to be part of the first, you know, day zero, day one, day two.

Speaker C: That's so funny you mentioned that because now we've got Our team, it's a team of four and I think about examples now where like you. And then we have a great um, employee. Employee out in Toronto, Nico as well. And I'm like, you guys go cook on this. Like, he's taking the newsletter to new heights. How does that work into like what you're doing with short form video and like. Yeah, it's just like I, how I have that trust of like you two. And however your partnership starts to occurs, like kind of like a Russian dole of them. Like you. I trust what you guys are doing with that stuff too.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So there's a few examples of, uh, creative content I want to run through. We don't have probably time to talk about all of them. So I'm going to say a few words and you guys can tell me which one you dive to dive into. So some fantastic content. Uh, there was your VP put out a book called Blind Spots and uh, you did a kind of uh, interview with uh, what's his name again? Remind me.

Speaker B: Ryan Sorley.

Speaker A: Ryan, uh, where you put a blindfold on your VP and had a fun kind of game show. That was great. Blind Spots.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: You have read, uh. What is it? Uh, no, not read apps. That's mine.

Speaker C: The other one you have. The other one you have his own stuff.

Speaker A: Whoops.

Speaker C: Subscribe.

Speaker A: Click. Just run that video real fast while we're here. Uh, the other one you have is uh, Between Two Churns.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker A: So that's a good one. Uh, and the one I definitely want to, if I can get one in there, is Coffee and Compete, which I know isn't like as quote unquote, like funny per se, but it seems to be, I'm going to guess, like a little bit of like the nucleus of a content strategy. Because it's like a newsletter, it's a show. Sometimes they end up on YouTube as like actual YouTube videos, not clips. There's kind of a difference. So between uh, we'll say Churns, Blind Spots and Cocking Compete. Where should we copy?

Speaker C: Because it's different.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: Turns. Turns is like a similar vibe to the like Inspo to action.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then just go roast your co founder because why not an hour before their board meeting?

Speaker B: Also just to clear the space, um, we did make Between Two Churns and uh, we filmed it in February and it was a great time. We really enjoyed it. And uh, not produces. You're not proud of it. Very excited. We held on to it. Can't wait to prove, promote it. Um, in about A week before we posted, a little person named Devin Reed decides to go and post his version of Between Two Ferns. I was not pissed at all. I'm not fine. It's fine. We're all fine.

Speaker C: Code red, Adam.

Speaker B: Code red. That was devast. That was devastation to my entire life. Um, we woke up on, like, a Tuesday. Great Tuesday. Had a coffee turn on LinkedIn.

Speaker A: Boom.

Speaker B: Devin reeds posted the thing we're gonna post in a week. I. I messaged Adam. I go, cut it. We're never gonna post it. I'm too embarrassed. I can't handle it. Funny. So, uh, I just want to say we didn't copy. Okay. Okay.

Speaker A: I mean, I copied someone else. So it's like, who am I to be like, oh, really? You're gonna do it too? Because, uh, folks haven't seen this. Between Two Ferns was Zach Galifianakis is this original interview series. We'll let you YouTube it. It's worth it. I made a version called Read Between Two Ferns with Tass Bober. Um, and what's funny is when we produced it, speaking of time to go. Like, time to. Actually, once we were done shooting it, we were like, uh, Chase, I think, finished editing in, like, two days. And we're like, this is the first thing we're gonna drop.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: So we knew. And because I'm with you sometimes, you want to hang on to it. I was like, no, we got to get this out. I had no idea you guys were cooking in the same kitchen.

Speaker B: I'm not sure about that.

Speaker A: But what's funny was because I liked Clueless. I was so excited to DM it to you two. So when I, like, posted it, I got busy, but I was like, I'm gonna come back and DM you guys, get your opinion. Because, like, you know, I care what you think. So insecure. Uh, but no, I was like, you'll like this. I'm like, you know, we have the same. We have the same vibe. And, uh, before I could, I think you DM'd me, and we're like, dude, this is really good. We just shot between two turns. But you didn't, like, lead on how pissed you were.

Speaker C: Oh, that was just deep again, resentment. Deep down here.

Speaker B: Mentalize.

Speaker A: It was very good, though.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, yours was amazing. So, like, I was like. I saw you post it, and I was like, please be bad. Please, please be so bad. And it was really good, and it just made it so much. But, yeah, I mean, it was. It all turned. Like we were saying earlier, no one remembers.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, no one cares, so. But hey, congratulations. It was really good. I have to give you your flowers.

Speaker A: Thanks, man. Thanks. That was, uh, probably the most well received funny video, if not my career, like, in the last few years, for sure.

Speaker B: It was really good.

Speaker A: Um, but when you have someone just, like, fastball a fern at your face on camera, like, it's kind of, you know, we. We went all in. I mean, I went a full, full wardrobe costume. I was like, method acting. Like, I was really. We. I had watched no less than 2015 Zach Galifianakis interviews, like, writing the jokes and prepping. So I was like, this is gonna be my breakout. No, I didn't get into Hollywood, but it got us here.

Speaker C: Uh, we're in Vegas.

Speaker A: Yeah, we are in Vegas. We are in Vegas.

Speaker B: Sorry, I derailed coffee Compete coffee.

Speaker A: I'm a happy subscriber. That's how I found it. And I actually reply, I don't know if you. You used to get them.

Speaker C: I think I used to get them. Now probably Nico gets.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And he's just. Is he leaving you on red? Do we need to have a. I don't.

Speaker A: Honestly, I'm not, like, responding to a while. It's a good one. It's still a corporate, like, newsletter, so I'm not like a human being's. Definitely better get back to me in an hour. I think when I first replied and I got you and I knew you, I was like, oh, cool. If I hit reply, I get to holler at Adam for a sec. And then I did reply one time and I didn't get you. And I was like, no offense to ever responded. I just didn't know you. Um, but I like it because I was, uh. I found it somehow on probably online, as always, and so I subscribed. And then I was like, I think then later I actually realized it was a show. And so I think I went on the. I thought it was a podcast. And then I clicked the podcast and you guys were cool. Like Joe Rogan having the video in Spotify. I think it was like, you guys, I'm teasing about Joe Rogan. He's the first one I saw. But so I'm like, whoa, that's cool. Like, these guys are really thinking ahead. They're making video first. It's there. Like, this is again, love or hate Joe Rogan or any other these, like, media podcasts. Like, that's what the top media brands are doing 100%. Their videos on YouTube, their videos in Spotify, you know, it's all this stuff. So I was like, damn, these guys. Kind of. So then I watch one, and then I'm like, let me jump over to YouTube. And then you guys are doing, like, legitimate YouTube videos where I see you, like, Burger King versus McDonald's and, like, some, like, crazy expression. And I'm like, dude, these guys are all in shout out to the thumbnail game.

Speaker C: Oh.

Speaker A: And so I'm like, they got something cooked. Like, you have something very intentional. So walk me through coffee and compete. Maybe like a quick, where did it start? And then you can give me the. The plumbing, if you will.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess where it started was just, like, literally doing. When I was like, Timo one had this, like, uh, podcast competitive enablement show. Fire name. Right. Hanger name Descriptive. Gosh. And then it was like, okay, how can I repurpose this? I'll do, like, recaps on a newsletter like that classic style, whatever. And then the newsletter, I was kind of just stretched too thin. I do it very sporadically. Whatever. And then essentially, we gave the newsletter an overhaul to Coffee and Compete. And we made these mugs that we take to events, and our customers got them and whatnot. And if they were a guest on the, uh, the show previous to our full rebrand, they'd get the mug. And it just became, like, a cool thing that was a little bit, like, emblematic of the Clue brand beyond, like, that channel. And then, uh, then when we had some, like, uh, we had Nico come in and I wanted him to take. He was really like, newsletter first. I'm like, I kind of left it on the side. It wasn't very good. Um, we would kind of sit with, like, what do we want to do with the podcast next? We were not, like. We were like, we need to go more into video. More into video. More into video and not just, like, audio. And then it kind of came like, the came. It came to be of, like, coughing can be. Is starting to. Has, like, a little bit of brand recognition. What's like, the. Like, what's the core content we can create here? Like, irrespective of channel? And then how does that just feed every channel? How do we repurpose effectively? And one of the things we've always looked at from our, like, content strategy is like, this edutainment is like. But, like, we wanted to, like, newsjack. And the cool thing is we work and compete. And, like, it doesn't have to be in the nuts and bolts of compare mental. But, like, how are businesses competing with each other? How is burger king and McDonald's like that's newsjack and where we can reach a broader audience.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Um, and then we would get like tactical with like sit downs with customers or like more product walkthroughs. And then we'd like bring even like community, like what our customers and community saying. And like um, that was sort of like what we'd make in coughing a beat. And then that feeds. Now Nico does a killer job on the newsletter and that's actually where we're using AI a lot too is he writes a killer news story on like Benioff roasting Microsoft. Um, and immediately can turn it around to a 60 second script that Grayson can work with. Shoot with me there. And like the efficiency just starts to become. It's the cliched flywheel, I think like

Speaker B: something that I like, we talk about a lot. And um, this is going to be me getting on my soapbox here. But like what he has set up with, with the newsletter, um, and what we've kind of like worked on for a while is news. The newsletter was like a great piece of content, but we had that, that news story in there. So we're like, okay, we'll make shorts to, to uh, like amplify that news story in another format so on video. Um, and then like we'll make the podcast and there'll be like kind of like a flywheel of like the, the newsletter feeds the podcast which then feeds the news story and then feeds like the video. And I think like a lot of people think, oh that's great to make content like that. But what we, what we spend a lot of time on is making sure the systems are in place. Because when we film the podcast, we're doing three clips per episode and that's a weekly show. And then we're also filming a short about the news story and then Nico's writing the newsletter. And so there's so many things going out and that's on top of filming stuff like clueless filming product walkthroughs. Like yeah, we, I think we shipped this quarter like 130 video assets.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: So like that's a lot of video content coming out. And like I think a lot of people can. This is me and myself soapboxes. Like a lot of people think like creatives are like, they're just like free flowing, whatever. It's like no, we spent a lot of time building out like this like system that can be repeatable, that as soon as the content's filmed, you upload to the cloud, send off the editors, get the Creative reefs done. We're very like regimented.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think a lot of people need to be more, more regimented. Um, because like, if you want to

Speaker A: make as much coming from Grayson, I'll be honest, that's pretty shocking to hear. I believe you, by the way. I'm giving you our time. But I think on your free flowing things like that is part of the process. But in a certain part of the process, the whole thing can't be willy nilly. Sometimes we do this, sometimes we do that. You're saying like, look, there's moments to be creative and go wild and throw ideas of the whiteboard, but then there's like, you know, the script has to be done at Tuesday at this time. Nico needs this at this time. And if that is missed, the whole flywheel falls apart. Stops or falls apart.

Speaker B: And I would even argue if you don't have a system, a regimented system, uh, built up, you have less time to do the brainstorming because you're so you're busy trying to catch up with like the constant post. And we have to post all the time and stay like relevant and keep content going out there. So if you're just like constantly stressed about like, how is this video going to get out? You're not going to brainstorm. You don't feel like you're in the right place. Having that system set up allows us more time to do the stuff that uh, we want to do. Like think of new ideas, create new stuff.

Speaker C: Grayson's also known as the Notion overlord and our marketing team, like, uh, shout out Alex. Like I direct demand. She runs a lot of our big campaigns and she's always like, Grayson, are you judging me? As she's clicking through notion and he is, but he suppresses it again.

Speaker A: So walk me through, uh, maybe kind of quickly is like, what is the first piece of content that you write? Like is it a script or a news story? And then what's the next thing? You don't have to go all the way into the mechanics, but I'm just trying to wonder like, you know, for example, we're starting today on a live interview that will turn into a couple newsletters, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. What is your guys's assembly, uh, line, I suppose.

Speaker C: Yeah, it depends. So like, we'll do a new story for sure and then we want something more tactical and this will be maybe part of our like, other content strategy of like, what's the message? We want to get out. What is the message? And then we'll Come up with different ways we'll create that. Whether it's a sit down with Jason about how competitive intel is changing in the AI landscape or we'll do a sit down with a customer and they're walking through how they're using a Clue product or a new feature. Like we'll choose something that's a bit more again, earn the trust, not with humorous time, with newsworthiness and then have something like more tactical and so those will be created as well. Like what we've decided is like our key message, Nico, um, goes and sources that story, writes the story first and foremost in the newsletter. And then we'll like recap something we've probably made on video. So it kind of goes both ways. And then uh, the other person on our team, shout out Jen, who's our community and events manager and customer marketing, uh, will include a bunch of stuff that's happening in the community which are all conversations we're working with our customers on around the key message we've highlighted. So everything makes sense. But I'd say the newsletter is probably like your core piece. Right. Like story goes to you.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: From Nico and then whatever we're producing elsewhere will make its way into to the tactical component.

Speaker B: Yeah. And then things can go back into the newsletter to like promote the video that we've come from the previous one.

Speaker A: Right. Well, that's why I love newsletters is you can both. It can be a publication channel like the story. I'm going to publish this story here for you to read and it's a distribution channel because two sections down might be this video with my CEO that you probably didn't see. But it's related. There's a through line so I'm going to put that in there for you as well. And I love the newsletter for that reason because after a couple of times I'm like, why the do I read this? Like it's good. Like why do I like it so much? I'm wondering. And I'm like, because every time the hook is a story and it's trending or news, it's not about Clue.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So even though I'm at the reader, I have no need to buy the software. I constantly read reply, follow you guys because that first story is always hits and then I'm always like, I wonder what they're doing. Like I'm just curious, okay, what are they doing at the product stuff or other things. And so I'm in like this clue fear.

Speaker C: The clue versus what we call, um,

Speaker A: I won't Say it. Probably because I actually can't pronounce it. Um, but I am in it. And that's why if you think too like back to like, why should we invest in brand content? You know, we're not selling, for example, or we're not, you know, we're not promoting our product. Whether it's Devin reads of the world or anyone's. Like, you have a fan who, even though if I don't buy, I tell the people I like your content or I'm talking about Clue. And so it gives you this word of mouth, this positive brand affinity all off that like one somewhat simple decision, but executed really well.

Speaker C: 100% actually, uh, as well. Newsletter. I think this is one thing. When we even look at the pillars of like what our content team is and content community team is like going for one of the things I've actually like I took stuff from you. I think you literally like, Here are my KPIs for the year. And it was just like audience growth. I'm like, hell yeah. So like Grayson's metric that he reports up with me and to Katie is like audience growth. And then uh, Nico does a lot of stuff on Pipe gen. And the perfect thing is there starts to be overlap of like newsletters. The great bridge, right?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: Because you're growing an audience, but there's. You're actually going to have like more attribution. You can have like harder ads. Like you've got like tons of like companies like advertising in your newsletter. Like it is a place we're just doing that. But just advertising our own product, right? Yeah, like it's a, it's a cool way to sort of bridge the gap with these different channels you choose.

Speaker B: I have a random question. Kind of like just your question there or your point there made me think of it like talking about um, like setting like the Cluniverse or whatever the uh.

Speaker C: Sorry. We're trying to make it up.

Speaker B: I can just keep

Speaker A: or wait or

Speaker B: are you the Infinity Stones, baby? The, um. Like when we, when we post something like uh, between two turns or Clueless, like often we've. I've mentioned this to Adam is like we obviously we have our customers, product marketers, competitive intelligence professionals, etc. But sometimes when we post something like Clueless, which is like this brand play, it talks about our product but it's really like to just get like a maximize reach. I often think of like LinkedIn has like their different like algorithm, um, like silos and one of them is like marketers appreciating marketing and so when we like we'll post something on Katie, who's our head of marketing, we'll use her channel to like in her account to post something because we want marketers to see it and go, this is cool marketing. Because that kind of like gets an algorithm in a different way. We're not necessarily selling to marketers, but it makes it get out there more. Do you ever do like think of it like I'm posting this not for people like in this category, but this to like maybe maximize reach.

Speaker A: I'm curious if you think about like 100%. Yeah, 100%. So um, Gong ah and Clary, we had a, basically we thought of like a tiered system on social. So we had uh, like execs, uh, at the top or like thought leaders. So Clary, that'd be like Kyle Coleman or me, um, obviously like your CEO and any C level VP that wants to post or you know, whatever. So you have your executives at the top, CEO, thought leaders. Uh two, you have your employees. So that can be your sales team, like uh, you know, gen pop, whoever you know, was willing to share.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then we had uh, the corporate LinkedIn channel. And I think in order, like that's how I would place my bets because I think you're going to get more reach and all the good stuff. Right. So from exact, we were very intentional. Like okay, the Croft, if we have the same asset, let's say that day we had a big activation. Everyone's sharing the same thing. But the CRO has to come at it from a uh, sales executive mindset. The CMO has to come over from this angle. The CEO has to come up from a different angle. So we were very intentional. Like we would write posts for these people and then they can edit it and make it their voice and stuff. But we're definitely thinking of like what are all the angles and ways you can hit this? Um, employees obviously more general because some are in sales. You might have like a sales version because we're sales led companies. Then you just have like a general one. And then obviously you can do whatever you want on your, on your corporate channel. But that's the way that I thought about it because I'm like, yeah, if we're going to go all in, like let's go all in. Spend another 10 minutes, 20 minutes on copy. That will get from 5,000 views to 15,000 views for your CRO. Like I want that extra, I'm not stopping at 98%. I want that extra 2% to get as much as I Can.

Speaker C: I think there's. I think you've coined this one too. Is it content market m fit kind of thing or. Yeah, and it's like understanding your audience from each channel and what they. What they're like serving. So like, um, and we've actually noticed too with the LinkedIn algorithm, if everyone's using the same asset, we're noticing that reach goes down. And so how do we like tweak each thing without doing it too much work? And so we know that Jason, when we work with Jason, we, we do. One of the things I actually love that we do with the founder led content with him is we just sit down with him and talk about product, talk about Clue direction. There's a big activation as a product release of like, why is ask Clue badass? Like what's something cool? And he will just share that from his perspective. And then we have him talking. It's authentically him. And then we'll work with copy with him. Um, and get that out there. And then Katie, because she's our VP marketing and she's like a really creative person, well respected in the marketing space, put the creative like brand ad that way. And then like with product marketing team, we'll do more like just like quick hit gifs of the product or the product walkthroughs that we shoot with you to like full employees. And you tailor the asset to the account which is tied to like your audience. Uh, if you're building any account you do, you have to have your audience in mind too, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, it's, it's. I find it, it was such a cool like unlock for me after Clueless is like seeing like, oh, like Katie's. Katie's audience doesn't care about competitive intelligence. They care about good marketing. So that that asset got out there and like it really hit the algorithm because it was people sharing like, look at this cool thing. Clues done.

Speaker A: Look what we wish we could do.

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah. And so it's not really hitting our customer but like, because it's getting more reach, it is hitting more potential customers for sure. It was like a really interesting thing to see of like that. I like that by the way, content market for. That's cool.

Speaker A: Um, absolutely. Uh, Udi used to say there's uh, there's only two type of people. Gone customers and future gone customers.

Speaker C: That's a bar.

Speaker A: Let's do two quick questions each. You can each answer and then we'll wrap.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker A: Okay. The first one, what's one bold idea that's either in the Vault and hasn't had its time to come out yet or something you're cooking right now that you're excited about.

Speaker C: Okay, this one I'm fired up about. And again, this is a cool one from a creative brainstorm that came from Alex. We were doing it just shooting ideas and she said it and I was immediately like, that's the idea. Um, and I think this has come. By the time this comes out, we've either started to release episodes or we've done a bunch of promo for it. Um, and I think the title is still tbd, but Seller Island. So it's gonna be a reality show of sellers competing with one another for a buyer. Like the scenario that Clue helps support. Um, and we're gonna. We've already been doing brainstorm of like, Grayson got it when he came back from vacation. It was like all reality TV tropes here, all sale tropes here, and we got salespeople in to give stuff in. And we're gonna look to shoot that as things we're learning as well. Like, can we do short form episodes for these that are gonna like, hook more. We're still deciding if we release episodic or do a bulk, like, sort of Netflix style release. Um, and I think we're looking to bring in some, like, cool talent as well for that potentially. So that's one thing that I, I'm super stoked for. That isn't technically greenlit, but we're in the process.

Speaker B: The thing I'm most excited about that is we're like, like to his point about short form is like, we're gonna. We've never done this before, but like, literally just shoot it in like real format. So three minute episodes, quick. So people can consume it really quickly. They don't have to go to YouTube to find like the landscape version of it. Just see what it can be like to just film. Film a whole episode in that, like, phone format. I'm excited to see, like, how that comes out.

Speaker A: That'd be dope. I think too, you could drop all of them on like a site or YouTube, but then promote them as if they were dropping one a week. Yeah, because then people get. Because the people might. You're gonna have raving fans. People are gonna want the second one right after. Yeah, you want to give them that. But you can't post. Post an episode a day. Probably on LinkedIn. People get confused. So I think you could rock.

Speaker B: That's actually a good point. We could just do. Yeah, boom. Write that down. Now. Um, one, I'm excited. I mean, I. It's just a thing I have in the vault. And I've said it to you before, I didn't even know. I don't even know where to go with this. But I really like the idea of, like, there's some people that do, like Patagonia said, like, don't buy this sweater. And there's people that have done, like, uh, I can't remember what company did it, but they're like, don't work for us as like a. Yeah, as like a talent acquisition thing. I've always. I've always had this idea of, like, just opening up an ad with like, this ad is not funny. Like, don't laugh at this.

Speaker C: Oh, you pitched this one so many times.

Speaker B: I don't know where it goes from there, but I think it would be like, in the meta thing is it's so serious that, like, it just becomes funny. And I just like the idea of, like, setting the stages. This ad is funny, not funny. Do not laugh.

Speaker A: What if it was? Don't win this deal.

Speaker B: Okay, there's. Yeah, there you go. I like that. The anti stuff. There's something about the anti marketing that I like.

Speaker A: Well, it's, uh. Was it like reverse psychology? If you like, if you're like, out in public, like, no one look at me, don't look at me. What does everyone do? Turn around and look at you? Right? So it's like, yeah, same thing.

Speaker B: I don't have a problem. Everyone's looking at me all the time, shining. I've never had that problem.

Speaker A: All right, final bit of advice for marketers who want to be more bold, who want to be more creative, but are struggling to get buy in. What would you tell them?

Speaker C: Uh, oh, actually I have a definite, like, take here on this is like, you have to be really mindful. Again with marketing. We're talking about your audience. When you're doing internal marketing, understand your audience and what they care about or where their mind's at and be able to deliver your idea that meets what they're thinking about. So when I said with Clueless, with Katie, she cares about running the most killer in person conference. Not us, uh, doing tiddlywings for some ridiculous show. But if we're like, hey, let's put it in and make our kick ass conference even more, she's like, ding, ding, ding. This works. So I think it's under, like, it's not for us to explain every scene of this vision and get everyone on board because that's where like, Grayson's talent lies, but it's giving enough information and the context that that stakeholder needs to be on board. Um, and obviously that means that your creative, creative idea needs to be rooted in like your top level strategy. But, um, I found with myself, like, that's the thing that I've consistently learned as you're like, work, like trying to get sponsorship from like, different stakeholders, more budget for stuff like that is make or break for people.

Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. I think for me, like, a lot of the things we've done and maybe this isn't the best advice, but speaking of the anti.

Speaker C: Don't take this advice.

Speaker A: Don't listen to this advice. Here we go.

Speaker B: But not in the sense that like, go publish without anyone green lighting, but ask for forgiveness later. And like create something and make it, like, build it first and then go, hey, I've done this. Rather than ask, can I build this?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that way, like, we like a lot of things we've done, we've written them first, we've come up with the idea of like, quite. We've fleshed out pretty much the whole thing and then go, what do you think about this? And sometimes we've actually shot stuff before and go, what do you think about this? So because people are quick to like, or at least not, not everyone, but people are quick to go, like, I don't think that'll work. But if they see that it works, whether or not they like the idea or not, they'll be like, oh, let's do it. So I. I feel like people are. It's way easier to say something's not gonna work and then kibosh it before actually filming it. So I say ask for.

Speaker C: We've got a great example of this is a good one to end too, is so we have two floors in our office, and there is one floor that was just the sexiest room downstairs. And we're like, we want to shoot. We want to make this our damn studio. And it's right next to where the execs have their board meeting stuff. And we're just like kind of half. We're like thinking about where I have like, Jason, what do you think if we turn this into a studio? He's like, no, you guys are idiots. Not a chance in hell. And we're in this worst room. And to the point of ask for forgiveness, not permission. We just went and did it anyways and made the studio in there. And then we aired like the new rebrand relaunch internally, like we do at the all hands of Coffee and compete. And you've got like the three camera set and all of that. And then Jason walks right by us to the office and goes, sometimes you gotta ask for forgiveness, not permission.

Speaker B: I'm like, yeah, I just think that, like, that really is. It's, uh, a way to prove to people that your idea works before, like, asking them to try to conceptualize yourself.

Speaker A: I think it gives confidence too, because, like, you're so convicted that you either went for it or kind of, uh, went against what I said and did it anyway. But it gives other people confidence. Like, your confidence in yourself makes other people go, well, hey, you might be onto something. And also you're kind of saying, like, give people, like, a little bit of a taste or pilot. So before you go, shoot a video, show them the script, you know, things like that. Because then you might reach and go, oh, that's actually pretty good. You might go, all right, let's, let's, let's go forward, right? It's a smaller jump for people to buy into.

Speaker C: That's just like an energy thing too, man. Like, I've never done sales, but, like, there's like, you bring an energy to the table and people will gravitate to that energy. Like, if you come in, like, just like someone's pissed in your cereal, everyone's going to be on edge. You, if you come in excited, like, here's this thing. Like, like whatever the. Whatever that feeling you get when you come up with that creative idea, express that too. Like, let other people in on the excitement or like, where your mind's going. Like, let people feel that. Not just like, verbally, like, just bring that energy, I guess. Um, yeah, 100%.

Speaker A: Well, this is where we have to wrap. And usually I would say goodbye, but we're going to go hang out at Swingers, which is just.

Speaker B: Devin took us well,

Speaker A: which is not that, though. We are in Vegas. It's a, uh, mini golf, uh, establishment, and I think they've got other games too. So we're gonna make some bets, we're gonna do a little bit of, uh, gambling between each other on the, on this game. So thank, uh, you both for hanging out with me. This has been inspired me, uh, taught me, and I know the viewers a lot too. So, uh, yeah, if you're listening, if you're watching, uh, let's jump over to Swingers and see what happens.

Speaker C: Lego.

Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker A: That's a wrap for today, and if you're still listening, you must really crave growth and I respect that. Here are three ways I can help you grow your content right now. First, subscribe to the Reader newsletter. You'll get actionable writing and marketing advice delivered straight to your inbox every Saturday morning. 2. Make sure you hit subscribe on YouTube so you get access to new episodes and new videos when they drop. And three, if you want to sponsor or hire the reader, you can send me an email at, uh, yothereader Co. That's Y o athereader Co. And if you're enjoying the show, make sure to drop us a five star review. It helps us get new sponsors and grow. I'll see you next time.