Why Playing It Safe Makes You Invisible (Jess Cook, Vector)

Speaker A: Yo, I'm Devin Reed and I'm on a mission to build a bigger and more inspired career as a marketer, creator and entrepreneur. After 10 years in sales and marketing and leading content for billion dollar SaaS

Speaker B: startups, I know one thing.

Speaker A: Learning from the best will help me reach my potential. Let's ride. That's why I'm traveling America for unfiltered street level conversations about creativity, marketing and

Speaker B: playing by your own rules.

Speaker A: This season we're in Vegas because the theme is betting on yourself and taking creative risks. Because the biggest wins of my career came from the all in moments that others called crazy.

Speaker B: Are you ready?

Speaker A: This is Read between the Lines, the show for people who want to achieve phenomenal results. Marketing isn't about filling the funnel anymore. It's about standing out, earning, uh, trust and making people feel something. And my guest today is a master of all three. Jez Cook is the head of marketing at Vector and before that she wrote ad copy for McDonald's and Kellogg's, led high performing content teams and turned risky

Speaker B: ideas into memorable moments.

Speaker A: Today we're going deep on creative risk taking in B2B and how to do it well. We cover how Jess made the jump

Speaker B: from head of content to head of

Speaker A: marketing, why B2B marketers need to steal plays from B2C creatives and which ones.

Speaker B: Plus how to get executive buy in for risky original ideas and why most pitches fall flat.

Speaker A: Are you ready?

Speaker B: Let's ride.

Speaker A: Shout out to our sponsor, Goldcast. They are the B2B video content platform. They know that video is the most effective medium for engaging audiences and building long lasting brand relationships. And they do more than just host amazing digital events. They recently released Content Lab, which is an AI powered video tool that I

Speaker B: use to turn long form content into branded clips in minutes.

Speaker A: Not ours.

Speaker B: And it's cool because you can use your digital event footage or upload video files.

Speaker A: To open your account, go to Goldcast IO or hit the link in the show notes.

Speaker B: Now onto the show. You have written ad, uh, copy for McDonald's, you have written TV scripts for Kellogg's, and you have led high performing content teams. And recently you went from head of content to head of marketing. And that's not a normal career path, but maybe it should be. So I want to dive into that transition a little bit because you bet on yourself and in your career to make that leap. So when did you know you were ready to become head of marketing?

Speaker C: Um, it's funny, I don't know that I did. Um, my husband did before I did. Um, and you know, your partner tends to know those things about you.

Speaker B: Mine too.

Speaker C: Um, yes. And um, a lot of it was, there was a little bit of confidence. Uh, I had, you know, become a pretty successful uh, head of content over a handful of years and I was, had strong confidence and belief in the programs I was putting out and the work I was doing and the results I was seeing back. Um, but there was always this actually like larger part of. Bigger than the confidence was frustration. I would get frustrated by, you know, people not really understanding content, heads of marketing, not understanding content, not understanding organic, not seeing the value in any of that and putting so much money and resources and time against demand gen and all of the paid marketing programs.

Speaker B: Dump it in Google Ads. Yeah.

Speaker C: And it was, it was just so frustrating because what, what can you put money behind if you don't have great content? Um, and so there was a point where I was like, I just kind of want to call the shots. I just, I kind of want to try that and see what happens and see if that lift some of that frustration. I knew there would be fresh frustrations and challenges that came along with it. Um, but I thought that might be the next path. Um, I also had been applying for more content roles thinking that that was the route I wanted to go. Um, and then when this role at Vector came up, uh, I got really excited and thought, no, maybe this is really the route I'm supposed, this is where I can kind of take everything I've learned from doing content in the last five years and bring it to the next level. And I think a lot of what makes, um, what made me feel confident in that is that I'm, I'm a great collaborator. I think that's one of my superpowers is I'm usually the person who is most entrenched in all the other teams. Right. And I think when you think about content, I'm sure you are this exact same way in all of your head of content roles is that you're the one going to the other teams, providing them with the stories, providing with the them with the content. You know, you're going to demand gen and saying, I know we have a big campaign coming up, like what are you going to do with that? Because I have some ideas. Right. And so I think for me it was like, well, I'm already kind of doing the leading by being that cross functional collaborator and I just want to like go do it for real now.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, otherwise you get stuck on what I call content island.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Which is you can have this, you know, very creative, maybe uh, even high performing content team, but they're kind of dissociated, uh, from the rest of the marketing or totally. And it's easy to get caught in there where, where if you're the head of content or you know, whether you're manager, director, VP level of like, this is my little domain, Maybe I have 1, 2, 3, 4 employees. Like we're just going to focus on our vision and try to like block out all the asks and requests or demands and it can only get you so far. You can only really stay at that like lower mid level manager role unless you get cross collaborative, make yourself known and actually have real influence across the board. Which it sounds like in your case that happened and you were searching for creative freedom.

Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, yeah. I didn't feel like I could get the ideas in my head, off the ground in the way that I wanted to. I couldn't get that executive buy in for things that I knew would be so impactful but hard to measure. Right. Uh, and so that's where the rub came. It was like, I've got to be able to go somewhere where even if things are hard to measure, it's still seen as worthwhile. Um, and, and man, how great would it be if it was seen as even more worthwhile than like the stuff that's easy to track. Because usually the stuff that's easy to track is also easy to execute. Easier to execute, I think, than a big brand play or a huge content idea.

Speaker B: So how do you deal with executives or leadership who don't understand the value of your marketing?

Speaker C: Sometimes you have to let them fail a little bit. Um, you have to give them opportunities that they could take and do everything in your power to make it really easy on them. Um, to make it super simple to post on LinkedIn or to get a great story out there, to have an amazing presentation at a big event, um, and let them be the ones to make it not happen and then see the impact of that and it's soul crushing. You put all that work into it and you're like, if that person could just get up on that stage and do this, this great presentation, this story presentation that I've built, right. Instead of the pitch or if, if this person would just take the time to like read this thing that I wrote for them and, and put a couple edits in there and then put it out on LinkedIn and just see what happens. It doesn't have to be perfect, right. But, um, sometimes they don't do that and, and they're the ones who are going to miss out on the impact. And I think so long as you know that you did all your due diligence and you did everything you could to bring that to the table and make it as easy on them as you could, it's on them.

Speaker B: Yeah. There's only so much you can do at the end of the day. But I do know your frustration. I've experienced it of like doing everything you can, but seeing lost potential by what you're unable to execute on that is even more frustrating in my opinion. It's, uh, more tragic to like see what could have been never happen and then just kind of get stuck in the same rut of the same old same old. Or I mean I've had it happen where executive, you know, demands a brief or pre read two days before the meeting. You get on the call, they're eight minutes late, they didn't look at the brief and they're like, why are we here?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you're like, this is my life. Like, this is, this is what I like, how am I supposed to win? How am I supposed to raise the bar? How am I supposed to differentiate our brand when this is kind of the hand I'm, um, dealt week over week?

Speaker C: Yeah. I had a similar situation where I presented an idea, gotten what I thought was buy in from, you know, cmo, and then I come back the next week with like the next step in the plan and they're like, tell me why we're doing this again. Right. That's equally as frustrating where you're like, I thought you were bought in on this. Like I thought we were there. I got you there last week.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: You have to do it over and over again. So those are red flags. Those are like, okay, I'm not getting somewhere here and I need to, I need to either stay, uh, here and be okay with that and move on from that, like, pain in my brain of like, uh, being so frustrated every day or I need to go elsewhere, uh, and try something new. And that was the point that I had gotten to.

Speaker B: Great point. Yeah. And I've told many marketers, I'm like, uh, if this has happened two, three, four, a dozen times, you know what it is. Yeah. Like, you know what your sphere is and what you're going to be kind of like trapped in the pattern. So you have to be okay staying and dealing with it or you have to be ready to leave. And I think that's hard for a lot of marketers because it's like, oh, it's not so. But then, you know, it's not so bad. It's not so toxic.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I'm like, you're probably right. It's more of a matter of, are you okay with complacency?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because that's what it's ultimately going to come down to.

Speaker C: Yeah. I think people get stuck in that sunk cost fallacy too. Tell me more where it's like, I've put a lot of time in here.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I've been here a year, I've been here two years, I've been here five years. I. I'm not just going to let this one exec make me angry enough to leave. And sometimes it's like, well, what, um, what are you missing out on though? Where could you go right now and start another 2, 3, 5 year career or, you know, the next role that could be 10 times as impactful on your career? Yeah, that's a hard thing to break.

Speaker B: It is. And when I left Clary, I had kind of like three paths that I saw for myself. Uh, one was Gobi had a content again somewhere else, which would be my third run. Uh, the second was become a VP of marketing, which was kind of like, you know, probably corporate marketing or something in that realm. Which is so funny if you look at me and think corporate marketing, probably not. Probably not a great fit. Um, or go solo, which was like, launch the reader full time and really invest there. And so as I was thinking of the three things, I was like, one, I've already done how to content twice. I think a third time, again, there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm like, I know how to do this. I'm not going to be challenging myself. So I kind of nixed that. The second was like, do I want to go be a VP or do I want to, you know, run my own shop? And the way that I had viewed it was what learning curve am I signing up for? So I have worked with Exact, but I have not been at the VP level at a in house marketing company, marketing team. Um, so I'm like, I have to learn. You know, there's different metrics, there's different language, there's how to, you know, how to report to the board or a CMO who's going to, you know, take your work and go to the board. And at the same time, I had two small children at home, one in three at the time. And I'm also on a learning curve of how do I be a better dad, you know, I've, uh, you know, I want to be a better dad than the one I had growing up. And so I'm like, how many learning curves can I realistically sign up for?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And be successful and which ones are kind of like non negotiables? And so for me, I was like, you know, maybe the VP role will come later. But I just decided, hey, I'm going to focus on being a dad. The learning curve will be how to run my own company. But again, I'd been in sales, I'd been in marketing, so I thought I just saw less of a learning curve there.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: For you. And maybe kind of giving advice for other folks who want to either elevate their career or move into head of marketing. What's your learning curve look like? Like maybe what are some of the things you thought you would run into and maybe things you've ran into that you weren't expecting? Yeah.

Speaker C: So I don't have any demand gen experience. Right. And to me, I was like, I was actually, I think way more worried about that initially than I am now three months into this role. Um, I was like, what am I going to do about that? Like, usually a leader who steps into this head of marketing role has that in spades. And it made me really nervous. And then what I realized was what those people don't have is actually the harder stuff skill, which is storytelling.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And immediately I was, like, relieved. I was like, I can hire for those skills. Um, exactly. I can bring people on when it's time. I can bring on a contractor until then. But the harder thing is to build a brand, to get people to notice, to get people to remember you. And I can do that. And so that was like a big, um, revelation for me to, to kind of like build that confidence and know I could do it. Um, another learning curve was, um, it'd been a little while since I had, uh, managed anyone. Um, and I've managed teams of creatives for years. I managed 10 different creatives, art directors, copywriters, web developers. But it'd been a while. And that was in my agency life, which now feels like an actual lifetime ago. Um, so it'd been a little while and I didn't have that muscle kind of built up again. Uh, so I was a little bit nervous about that. I've never reported to a CEO, uh, directly. Um, so, you know, nervous about that. That's a learning curve. How do you manage up to somebody who created and runs the company and has this grand vision? Um, so that was a learning Curve. And these are all things I'm still learning. Right. I mean, and I will continue to learn. Um, but I think the thing that, like, was the real light bulb moment for me was realizing I already have, like, the hardest skill down and, and, and I can, I can do that very easily and I can, I can bring team members on and I can nurture the rest.

Speaker B: Well, I think too, and I agree, I think too, is other marketers will see the story you're telling, the brand you're building, and be attracted to that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So there's kind of this, um, you know, secondary value of you. You, you don't just, um, attract customers, you attract talent.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: And people want to be a part of that journey. They're seeing how much fun you're having because you share it online and the things you're building. And so I have to imagine that's going to make hiring for you easier as, you know, the company grows and your team grows.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I also know that you had that background in B2C.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you've shared that you think B2B marketers should be, um, taking plays and insights from B2C. Before we get to what those are specifically, I think you have some stories about your work at McDonald's.

Speaker C: I do.

Speaker B: What are some of those stories and what did you learn from your time at McDonald's?

Speaker C: Uh, um, so my first job right out of school was as a copywriter on the McDonald's team. I wrote the jokes on the Happy Meal boxes.

Speaker B: Really?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: What is your favorite joke? Do you remember any of them?

Speaker C: I do.

Speaker B: What is the. If you know the best and worst joke, and it could be subjective, it's

Speaker C: the best and worst joke.

Speaker B: It's probably the same joke as are my dad jokes.

Speaker C: Yes. It's a total dad joke. Uh, which is weird that like a 21 year old, you know, woman wrote, um, was for. There was a movie about surfing penguins called surfs up circa 2006. And, um, the joke was, uh, why do surfers put most of their shirts in drawers? Because they can only hang 10. I know it's bad.

Speaker B: I like it. It's so. But it's so bad, it's good. And that's the definition of like a dad joke or a pun joke. Totally. Or mom joke. You can all.

Speaker C: And there were. There were tons of those. And it was so much fun. Um, I like it was it. I look back and I like, pinch myself. Like to. To think that that was my first job out of college was really incredible. Um, and, uh, I learned so much on that team. Um, a lot of just, ah, how to write great headlines. Um, I did a lot of billboard work and signage for McDonald's, um, and usually you get, you know, eight words or less. And so it was like, how do we say something that is interesting, that has a little bit of a wink, um, that kind of has that classic Americana McDonald's thing to it, but it has to fit on this tiny sign that you're gonna see in the drive thru.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Right. And so, um, I think one of my favorite just kind of ways to approach writing a headline like that is to come through an idea, come to an idea through the side door so you're not approaching it head on. It's not, you're not telling someone, this is a real egg on your sandwich. Right. So the line that I wrote for the egg McMuffin was we break it, then we fix it just for you. Right. And so it was just kind of this idea of like, oh, I get it, it's an actual egg. Because that was the misconception we were trying to get over was people are like, oh, they have like a loaf of eggs and they just slice a piece off. Right. Um, that's the assumption. And so that was the brief. How do we get people to realize that there are real eggs that get cracked every single time we make an egg McMuffin?

Speaker B: That is fascinating. And it's also like the sign of a great marketer, which is like, how do you get, how do you get the message across to change their belief.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Without being on the nose.

Speaker C: Totally.

Speaker B: And when you think of, uh, I just think a lot of SaaS marketing, because for many reasons, we won't get into it, you know, in a second. But it's like, I think they sometimes do just say, this is a real egg. Like, this is the best tech. This does this. And it's like descriptive and accurate, but doesn't really make you feel anything. It doesn't really motivate you to want more of that copy that, you know, that content, that marketing, what have you, or that product.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and I have to imagine, I don't know how many of you. I don't know, I have to imagine and I don't know how many signs, like, nationally had your copy on it, but that had to give you a lot of confidence in an early age to, ah, be like, I'm writing words that are on a national chain across what probably state line across the country.

Speaker C: Yeah. 13,000 stores across the country had my words on their signage. Their billboards. Um, yeah, it was. And you know, the, the Happy Meal boxes. And, um, my mom was my greatest customer. She would always go buy every single box.

Speaker B: That's so cool.

Speaker C: Yeah. Um, so, uh, yeah, it was incredible. And it did, it really did build confidence where it's like, okay, maybe I am good enough to do something like this. Right. That my, my work is out there like that.

Speaker B: So. Anyone listening? If you bought an egg McMuffin, myself included, around that time, might have just cooked to thank.

Speaker C: Yeah, I just thought of a, uh, the other line I wrote that. Proud of our eggs, slip through the cracks and onto the griddle. I know. I love that one.

Speaker B: That's fun. It's visual, too.

Speaker C: You can see.

Speaker B: You can see it. Yeah.

Speaker C: And it almost like you read it and you're like, wait, what? Gross? And then you're like, oh, oh, okay. Right where it's kind of, it's, it's arresting. Um, and it kind of confronts that perception of McDonald's food head on.

Speaker B: I think writing a headline is a top three skill that elite marketers must have.

Speaker C: Agree.

Speaker B: I think it's wildly overlooked. What advice would you have to marketers who want to become better headline writers?

Speaker C: Ooh, uh, you gotta warm up. A headline is the hundred meter dash of writing. And so you can't just go into it not having done any training or any exercises. Um, I actually have a list. I'll share them with you. We can put them in the show notes.

Speaker B: I would love that.

Speaker C: Of like, 16 questions I ask myself to warm up my brain to write headlines.

Speaker B: I do want that.

Speaker C: Yes. I'll send them to you.

Speaker B: You know, a couple. Can you share any?

Speaker C: My favorite one is what is an inside joke only this audience would understand? And I think it's. It's things like that that get you so deep into the audience and where their head is at. And all of the little things they know because, you know, they're a runner or because they love this kind of food or because they, um, are really into sci fi. Right. Like, whatever the audience, um, if you can tell a joke that they would, like, actually smile at, uh, you know, you're in their head.

Speaker B: Well, I think too, the importance is especially, um, if you're marketing to an audience that you have never been in or been a part of.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's really hard to know them well enough to get them from a, uh, current state to your desired state.

Speaker C: Totally.

Speaker B: But I think a lot of times too much focus is on the two getting them to the place and not stopping Going, where are they really right now? And when you write those types of inside jokes where it's like, how, it's almost like, how do they know this? How does this brand know so much about me and my experience in a couple words. And then you really. Not only earning attention, but I think mind share too, because later you're going to have a higher, uh, likelihood of recall.

Speaker C: Absolutely. I think a lot of that too just comes from studying really great headlines. So when I was in my agency Time, uh, we had, there's a, there's this great publication called Communication Arts. Used to be a series of books that would get shipped to you. Now it's all online. Um, but I would just sit there and pour over those. And inside of them are some of the best print ads ever made from that year from all different countries, from all different companies, from all different industries. And there's something to be said about the power of one visual and a headline, the simplicity of that, to telegraph an idea and get someone to think, you're talking only to me. And so studying that, I think is something that B2C creatives do religiously. Right. They're studying other people's work, they're looking at who won awards this year. They're understanding why that's good work and why it did so well with that audience. And so I would just sit there and pour over those and anyone can go there now. I still do that. It's a great exercise even just to see how, you know, B2C companies are talking about their product, how they're bringing emotion into those headlines. It's something we should all be trying to do more of.

Speaker B: In B2B, the idea of studying the greats, but also, uh, what I say is speculating. So a lot of times, because there's so much pressure to deliver and move on to the next thing, there's not enough time spent on pausing, looking back and going, hey, how did this email campaign perform? How did this, you know, social media campaign perform, billboard, etc. And it's okay to speculate why you think it worked or why you didn't think it worked. And so this thing I always did, we had a bi weekly meeting where we would have someone bring their work from the past week or two and they would lead what it was, uh, the results and why they made a couple creative decisions that they made. Now if you're uh, if your asset performed well, you're really excited to get in there and be like, I did this, I did this. And it crushed. But I also Made people, if it didn't, if it underperformed, do the same thing. And then everyone would go around and say, why do you think it worked or didn't work? And I always say is no one knows for sure. And I think that like, loosens up kind of the tension or their, lowers their guards of like having to know it all or be embarrassed if their work didn't do great. Because it's like you never really know for sure because no one's clicking the ad, buying your thing and then circling back to you and go, by the way, was that killer headline of why I bought this or that social proof on two slides over? That's what I loved.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I like this idea that you've gotten into the habit. And I imagine you probably teach your teams too to kind of do this, look back and speculate why things worked and didn't because it makes you better.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's. I cannot agree with that more. I love that you said that because I think B2C creatives do the same thing where as a B2C creative, I never once knew the click through rate of a single ad I wrote.

Speaker B: Really?

Speaker C: Yeah. Even when I was working on like actual digital ads for Kellogg. Because that just wasn't the point of it. The point was, the point of it was to get people to see it and talk about it. And, you know, we would know if Rice Krispies did a little better that month or, you know, that the, the markets that that television commercial, uh, ran in that, you know, sales were up in those handful of markets, we would find that out later. But the idea was more of like, we need to create a feeling. You know, Rice Krispies has a feeling, um, Pop Tarts has a feeling. Has a feeling, whether you think about it or not. Um, and so we really had to just maintain that feeling for people to know that, like, there's there's this, um, comfort in the familiar. Right. And we wanted to really make sure that Rice Krispies always felt familiar. There's a consistency you want to maintain in the brand. And that to us as B2C creatives, as copywriters, as art directors, was so much more important than like, did people

Speaker B: click on it when you're talking about consistency in the feeling? So when you see the ad, it might look different, it might have different types of characters, old people, young people, you know, inside, outside, whatever. But the feeling you get over time looking at those ads is what you focused on first. And then I'm sure our, you know, our creators or our directors, they all come in and go, okay, now there's obviously branding and certain things and elements, but you started with the feeling. And again, in B2B and SaaS, it's like starting with like, no, the colors have to be the same.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or the logo. Yeah.

Speaker C: The thing gotta be a blog post.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And it's like, start with the feeling. Which is actually funny because I came from a sales background and when I started in marketing, I was like, that was the first thing I started with was whatever I'm doing. If I'm presenting research in a blog format, how do I capture a feeling that will lead them into the research so it feels personal to them? Because no one really wins by being the smartest person in the room. I think you win by being the most relatable person in the room. And so it's like starting with emotions, starting with those scenarios that are really specific, familiar. And now you've captured their attention, they're feeling something, and then you can introduce them to, you know, snap, crackle and pop or what have you. Which, by the way, there's a story I think you were singing in the Kellogg's like, pitch room.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Tell me more.

Speaker C: Okay. Something that, again, another, like, hey, you got to borrow this from B2C is, um, B2C. Copywriters and creative directors and art directors. They are not afraid of a little theater to get buy in. And I think we need more of that in B2B. So I, uh, had the opportunity to write a Super bowl commercial for Rice Krispies. Um, and it was, it ended up being a song. It was a song about they were going through this kind of odd phase where they wanted people to try and, like, top their kids. Rice Krispies with different things like fruit, marshmallows, like, whatever. Like, it was supposed to be kind of this, um, like, you mix and match whatever your kids love, but make sure you put it on Rice Krispies. And so I wrote this whole song, um, about like, all the different cool combinations you could put on top of your Rice Krispies. And snap, crackle and Pop would like, drag some things in and put it on and you, like, present. And I sang it in the boardroom because I needed them to understand, like, the rhythm of it and how it would feel and that it was this kind of, you know, what were the beats per minute so that we could kind of like, oh, it's a toe tapper. Right. Um, and that was not the only time I sang or acted something out or had sound effects to go with the, the script that I had written, um, because, again, we want people to feel something. We want them to laugh. I made people cry with some scripts before print ads that I'd written, like tears in their eyes, which was always like, yes, they. I've sold it in. Right. And so if you can get someone to feel something when you're presenting, uh, man, you, you've, You've gotten the idea sold.

Speaker B: I believe marketers have to be great sellers.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because copywriting and marketing is sales at scale. And before you even get to hit print, you have to sell the idea to your boss, the board, whomever, depending on how big of a swing it is. And I'm the same way. I'm, I'm, if anyone knows me, not, uh, immune to some theater and theatrics to get my point across. But it is, uh, one, it makes it more fun to go up there. Like, here's my. It's my time to shine, and I'm going to go, you know, pitch my idea the biggest, best way I can. Um, it also feels even more gratifying when you get that approval because you went up there and like, yes, sang my heart out.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, where do you get the conviction or the confidence to go in front of your peers and bosses and sing a jingle or a toe tapper? Right. Because a lot of marketers don't. I think they want to have bigger, bolder ideas. Uh, but they, you know, they're nervous. So, like, how do you think about presenting your ideas to get approval?

Speaker C: I never wanted to regret not having done enough to sell it in. I never wanted to walk away thinking I could have done more to get people excited about it. And I, I take that with me still. Um, I just presented a budget, my, My back half of the year marketing budget on Monday. And I, I practiced it. It was theatrical. I got people excited. Like, I wanted everyone to walk out of that room one feeling excited that they were just about to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, which is really hard to get people to feel excited about, but too confident in the plan. And so, again, like, you can't just read the numbers off a sheet. You have to build a story around it and get people to be like, yes, if we don't do this, we're nuts.

Speaker B: I love it. Make it impossible to say no.

Speaker C: Totally.

Speaker B: But you also know where your audience is, which is probably hesitant to spend, doesn't understand marketing, New gal on the block. So you got to kind of prove yourself a little. If this is your first time doing it at this company. Yes, you're setting the stage, you're setting the table of, like, this is what it's like working with me and how I'm going to show up. And it also shapes the culture of the marketing organization and the broader company to say, uh, we understand marketing. And to your point, going from hesitant to excited is a huge win.

Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. You know what, um, is really helpful if you have a great name for something and a great visual, you are halfway there. So, for instance, um, I had come up with a 30, 60, 90 day plan when I was, uh, talking to my CEO and my CEO, both the founders of Vector, uh, to get hired. And that was kind of my homework assignment. I was like, I want to come up with this plan for you. I want you to see how my brain works. I, I want you to feel confident in hiring me. And so I came up with this plan and I, I had three phases. Uh, and I remember the last one after, you know, kind of the first one was called, uh, Sponge, just like soaking it all up. The second was called Scaffolding. I was going to build all the things that we needed to build to get going. And the third one was called Ninja Kick. And I just remember being like, yes, that's the name. Because I want them to know, like, we're going to roundhouse people in the face with awesomeness. And I brought that back. Love that I brought that back when I sold in the budget because I was like, remember how excited we all were when we walked through this 30, 60, 90 day plan together? We're here, we're at Faze Ninja Kick. Like, let's not forget that. Right. I wanted to get people hyped up again.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So sometimes if you just come up with a great name, you can get people halfway there before you even really begin pitching.

Speaker B: So we got to talk about this thing, Funnel Vision. So as I was doing research, um, and actually that's a lie. This was before doing research. It found me on the feed, which is because I follow you and I'm following your journey. And I'd never heard of Vector before Jess Cook joined. And I saw this, um, I'll say animated thing, which was ghosts with lasers coming out of their eyes to release your new product or new feature, uh, which is Funnel Vision. And I went, jess is having the time of her life over there. Because this is insane in the best way, because it caught my attention and it was kind of delightful, you know, and obviously it makes somewhat sense of like, the through line of like, Funnel Vision, ghost lasers. Like, there's something there but tell me more about, like, why did you decide to do that, especially so early in your time there? Like, you. You had some, uh, you took a creative risk.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, I have the. The luxury, the privilege of having a CEO who really, really understands and invests in brand. So if you go to the Vector website, there's all these really cute little ghosts all over the website. The idea is that your website visitors are ghosting you because you don't know who they are at a contact level. And Vector allows you to know who they are. And I, like, that was half the reason I wanted to go there was I was like, oh, these people believe in brand. It's clear. Look at their website, the colors, the ghosts, like, the language. Right.

Speaker B: It's very street level. It's not jargon. It's very conversational.

Speaker C: Totally.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I loved that they state the problem. So this was all foundational before I even got there. Um, and so I just got to kind of piggyback off of his, uh, chaotic, insane, in the best way brain. Um, and I don't want to be boring. I don't want to blend in. I think the worst thing we could do is play it safe. And I know because he's the one who came up with the ghosts. He feels the same way Josh does, our CEO. So I, uh, went all out. I was like, I came up with the name Funnel Vision Speak. Like, talk about finding a great name for a product, right? And it was like, it came to me, and I've never written anything down so fast because the idea is, like, you get X ray vision into the funnel, you see where all your contacts from your site are in the funnel, and it telegraphs that so quickly, which I love. Um, but then I was like, but no one's gonna pay attention if there's not something just, like, again, round housing them in the face with awesomeness. M. And so first I like, made the graphic that had the name and it had, like, the. The screenshot of the ui. And I was like, well, we need some ghosts in here, you know? So I added some ghosts and I did my magic in Canva where they kind of floated around. I was like, yeah, that's cute. And I was like, it needs. We need, like, one more level unhinged. Like, it's got to have something. And I was like, oh, laser eyes, right? I mean, as one does. Um, and I just shared it around. And I was like, yes, that's amazing. Right? I think it does. It just is. It's weird enough to be like, what are these people doing? But also I need to know what these people are doing.

Speaker B: Well, that's. It had stopping power.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because it's on the scroll. And so I saw if I go in order of what I remember, which probably is in order of what I saw was these ghosts that were moving, but they weren't moving so much that it was distracting. It was like just enough if someone like snaps their fingers, you like, look for a sec. Right. So just enough of that. I think it's had like something to the effect of introducing funnel vision. It's like we'll pull the graphic up and people will be able to see it as they're listening or watching here. And, um, the thing I liked was that it was immediately clear what this thing does. There was a little bit of a product screenshot to help you m. Bridge that gap, but it was just like, oh, yeah, that makes complete sense. And I think you had like maybe, uh, another sentence kind of a little more descriptive. Right. Giving you level down. But the point was you went in order of stopping power. Get your attention to clear message. Make it easy. Great name. And then three, let's just be brass tax. What does this thing do?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: And I was like, very well done.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker B: Brava.

Speaker C: Oh, uh, that's music to my ears. Yeah. It. There's something about being, um, kind of show stopping and simple at the same time. It's a really hard line to tow. Um, but when you can do it, um, it's really powerful. And I think for us, it's like we're. We are always going to do bold or nothing. We're never going to play it safe because we. The survival of the company, the growth of the company depends on that. There's so many. We all talk about the little map, the martech map that grows every year, feels like it doubles every year. Right. We're one tiny speck on there. So how are we going to stand out? How are we going to get dollars budget away from any of those other million tools if we aren't just a little weird?

Speaker B: Yeah. And it works.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, that's one of the things I love about you is you are willing to. You see a vision and you're willing to roll the dice, gamble, make that thing in canva, ship it around and go hit publish. Um, but people also need to know that sometimes you put a lot of work into it, sometimes you make a creative bet and it doesn't pan out. And I believe you've got a story about a podcast that you were working on. For weeks. I think you were even on your way out to about to be on your way out to shoot this podcast and you canned the whole thing.

Speaker C: We did.

Speaker B: So walk me through that.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, when I first got hired and presented my initial strategy to Vectors founders, uh, one of the things that was like a non negotiable on there was, was a podcast. Uh, and I felt it needed to be between myself and my CEO Josh. And uh, I knew that we needed it to have a, ah, great name obviously and a really interesting premise. Um, and we knew that we didn't want it to be super selly. We wanted people to come to it because they genuinely liked it and genuinely liked us and our banter and our conversation. Um, and then by proxy would be more interested in Vector. Right. And we came up with this idea. I loved the name, it was super exciting. It was called Funnel Cake. We were gonna um, take people through all of the things that you needed, uh, in modern day marketing, kind of in this new era of um, having the ability to see who's on your website and how do you move people through the funnel. And we started to outline the episodes for Funnel Cake and every time we sat down to do it one, I could tell there was something like in my brain, in my heart, I just wasn't excited about it and that bothered me. And then every time we went to outline it, it felt like we kept coming back to the product every time, even if it wasn't on purpose or overt, it still felt like we kept reverting back to the things that Vector could do. And that felt like that was a, uh, that was a deal breaker right there for me. Like this is not even a viable podcast anymore. And so eight days before we flew to Florida to film this thing, I got in my one on one with Josh and I said, I think we have to start over. And he was like, really? And I was like, yeah, so give me 24 hours, I'm going to come back to you with a better idea and we're going to take it to Florida with us. And so I kind of spiraled that day. It was a little, um, chaotic and nerve wracking, um, because I knew I'd kind of given myself this short, I needed to give myself this short turnaround time.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And um, I texted some trusted friends about like, hey, if you could listen to a podcast with a CEO and a head of marketing, what would you want them to talk about? And the answers that I were getting back were like, just, you know, like they're Dynamic and the things they disagree on and how you get buy in from him. And I was like, okay, yeah, I guess, you know, whatever. That kind of just sounds like our one on ones. And then it dawned on me and I was like, we should just do this like, build in public thing to the extreme. We should let people in on our one on ones. Um, and so that is how this meeting could have been. A podcast was born.

Speaker B: I love that. I think there's a few things. One is trusting your gut or your intuition, like something's wrong here.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's a great barometer that if you are writing an outline, brief campaign, anything, and you find yourself reviewing it and you are tuning out, it's. It's not going to get fixed in execution. No, it's never. I've never seen it done where an okay idea. And I'm not saying your idea was okay, but it fixed felt okay. Like not good enough.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And you're like, let's just roll camera and we'll figure it out on the fly. That's a great way to like burn, uh, a lot of cash and time.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: The second thing is I think you needed, uh, you needed a short timeline for yourself.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Because one, you were going to lose a lot of credibility if you're like, cancel the flights. We have to push this back weeks or months. Oh, yeah, that's not going to be a good look. And I think a little back against the wall is good for you and good for your career. And so I love that you had that fast turnaround. You're like, look, we're not going to, uh, you know, train still on time, but we got different passengers. We're going to, we're going to do some shifting here. So I like that a lot.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it was, um, you know, once we were like, yes, this is it. This is the idea. Right. And I started, you know, talking about, like, these could be the episode titles. Like just wants to bring on an agency. That's an episode title. Right. It feels like curb your enthusiasm or something.

Speaker B: I would say it feels like a sitcom in a way. Like now you're the main. What is it? Friends? Like the one with the. The one with the new agency. The one about, you know, whatever the thing is.

Speaker C: Exactly. Or like, um, it's always sunny. Right. The gang goes to the game. Right. It kind of felt like that I was like, okay, there's something there. And then I knew we wanted like these mini segments because I wanted to be able to like, find really clippable moments. So I was like, okay, we got. We got to come up with, like, a really weird mini segment. I think part of what helped me realize this was the right idea was it was like the. The weirdness of vector in a podcast, right? And. And we do that with everything. So even, like our swag. Our swag is we have marketers, um, against humanity is like a card game we had made. Um, we have a Lego set that's like the little ghost in a funnel, right? Like, I will get you one. It's pretty cool. Um, I got one for both my girls. They loved it.

Speaker B: We love Lego at the Read House, too.

Speaker C: So, yes, the girls can build it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, but, yeah, like, we try to put, like, that little extra bit of, um, I don't know, uniqueness on everything. And I think that was something that was bothering me about that original concept was this is not unique enough. Like, this feels like a lot of other shows out there. And so when it came time to figure out, like, what's this mini segment? What's this little thing with the show within the show, right? We have this really weird little moment where we both stare directly into the camera and we deliver positive affirmations to marketers, and they're almost like, um, Chuck Norris jokes, but for marketers, right? And I was like, yes, that's perfect. That's just the right amount of unhinged, right? And so each little step that we took over the course of the next eight days to get this show ready felt exciting and new and fresh, and that was really how we knew it was. Right?

Speaker B: I'm going to absolutely put you on the spot right now. I want you to look into camera three, and I want you. You can take a second. We can always cut. How much prep time you want to take a breath. And I want you to give some positive affirmations to our listeners right now, our viewers.

Speaker C: Okay? Um, Dear Marketer leads. That's it.

Speaker B: I want more. I want affirmations, plural.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker B: Uh, you can take 10 seconds or 30 seconds, and I'll tell you what, I'll do it after to make it fair.

Speaker C: Okay? Yeah, you. But you have to come up with that on spot.

Speaker B: I'm not even going to think about it. I'll just look into camera one and blurt.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker B: You know, I'll just look into camera one and say whatever comes to mind.

Speaker C: You look like a marketer. That only makes.

Speaker B: I was. It's hard to do. It's actually challenging to the camera and

Speaker C: have a straight face.

Speaker B: I don't even know What? I'll go, I'll try to get on. What do you start with? Dear Marketer?

Speaker C: Always we do in the show. You don't have to to.

Speaker B: Dear Marketer, you're not the crazy one in that meeting. You do have good ideas. They just don't see how good your ideas are yet. So if you need to DM me, pitch me that idea and I'll give you some positive affirmations because I know you're not getting it in the boardroom.

Speaker C: That, uh, was good.

Speaker B: Well, personal, I've dealt with that. You're not the crazy one. I've had to call my boss and literally go, dude, am I crazy for this? And pitch the idea. And he goes, no, it's pretty normal for marketing. And I'm like, okay. Because no one understands what I'm trying to say. For real. That was good.

Speaker C: Yeah, that was good.

Speaker B: That was fun. Good for you for doing that. Okay. So the other thing I like about the show is you're taking a format that's familiar, which is a one on one with a boss or CEO, and you are making that the show format, which is novel. No one's ever just been like, here's our one on one. Have at it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so I think that is interesting. And the thing that's cool too is you pieced it together with your market research of like, what do you want to hear about? What are you interested in? I have learned this too is internal dynamics. Makes kind of like hot tea.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And therefore great content.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so if you can have that portrayed in a positive but honest way, tension and all, people are going to swarm to that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I see that even in my LinkedIn content where like the stories of the behind the scenes stuff gets the most engagement every time.

Speaker B: Content about the content, the ways the m. Meta stuff. Right. It is. Bloopers always perform better. People love seeing me mess up the lines.

Speaker C: Go fuck.

Speaker B: Oh, and Chase has, uh, the editor has just round after round of like blooper father. You know what I mean? And that always outperforms the clips. And I've also learned the clips outperform the show.

Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. And so that was. That was originally where this came from, was we need a video first content strategy. Therefore we need this podcast of, you know, marketing leader with her CEO and like, how do we make decisions together? Um, so that we can have not only the full episodes, but the clips and the articles of all of the takeaways and the summaries and the social content and the newsletter, email Right. All of those things stem from this new podcast.

Speaker B: I love it. Dear Marketer, you can do it too. I really want to get back. I'm going to watch the show just for the affirmations. I think we all need some affirmations in our life right now.

Speaker C: Sneak them into the middle. That's pretty fun.

Speaker B: Is it just like, abrupt?

Speaker C: Oh, I. We go. I think we've gotten to the part of the show where, like, we stare into the camera and we deliver these positive affirmations.

Speaker B: I'm into it.

Speaker C: We do it.

Speaker B: Have you guys already published? It is already live.

Speaker C: Uh, episode one came out on Wednesday.

Speaker B: Okay. Forgive me for not like yesterday Wednesday or two weeks, like a week yesterday.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Oh, my gosh.

Speaker B: Well, I was like, I did my research Tuesday, so that's why I haven't seen it yesterday. But I remember taking a look. Okay, great. Go listen to that. Now you're at Vector and you have a lot of creative freedom, but you did not always have that creative freedom in previous jobs. And so I know it's tough to pitch ideas, get shot down, have to pivot, all that good stuff or not so good stuff. What advice would you have to marketers for getting executive buy in on their bold ideas?

Speaker C: I have to tell you, this was the hardest thing for me to learn when I came to B2B, because in B2C you don't have to do that. The coolest idea wins, the most breakthrough idea wins. And there's not usually, besides making sure that it answers the creative brief you're given, there's not usually any kind of hypothesis or rationale given to why you think this is going to drive the business other than it's going to be amazing. People will remember it. They'll remember the brand name. So that was a really hard skill for me to learn when it came to B2B. Because there does have to be a business case for some of these bold ideas to get your buy in. Right. To get someone in executive leadership who is probably afraid of bold ideas like this to say yes. And usually you have to have a better rationale and more confidence, the bolder the idea. Because bolder equals scarier. For a lot of execs, um, I am fortunate enough again to have a CEO who really believes in brand, who is not afraid of big bold ideas, who welcomes and encourages them. Um, but not everyone has that. And so you really have to do your preparation. You have to go and look at other companies who maybe have done something similar and see if you can kind of understand what the impact there was for them. Um, you have to have, ah, some sort of hypothesis. Sometimes that means running a small test. That's actually probably, um, one of the best ways to get buy in on a bold idea is to ask permission to do a test and do some sort of small version of that. And I have a story for you for that.

Speaker B: I love it. Real quick, what I love is that, uh, the Clue boys were here, which is Adam and Grayson. I just call them the Clue Boys. No one knows that. Probably who they are. Off top, they're the same answer. Uh, I asked them the same question and they were like, just uh, like go for it and ask for forgiveness. And I love that you're the adult in the room is like, actually, let's do a small test and then expand. But tell me your story.

Speaker C: I wish I had the, the guts to do that. So, um, when I was at island, we saw that a lot of our audience who were CIOs and CISOs really had a, uh, huge pain point around a technology called vdi. It's a horrible experience. It's essentially if, uh, you work in a call center and your software is actually being streamed to your screen from somewhere halfway around the world. So it's laggy. Where you click isn't actually where you're clicking on the computer where it's being streamed from. So you're always like a couple pixels off. It's a horrible user experience and executives in cybersecurity and information hate it. And so that was something that island could help displace or replace. And so we thought, let's try to attack vdi. Like it was, it was fair game to attack vdi. And so we thought let's do some sort of like breakup letter with vdi. Like, you know, you, we don't have to use you anymore. Like, we're done with you. And so we did this really just like simple, uh, image post. And it was, dear vdi, uh, it's not me, it's you. Right? And it was the first time we ever saw our ICP use the laugh reaction on LinkedIn. They never laughed at anything else we'd ever posted. And that's not something that you can be like, there was a 70% increase in laughter, right? But it's like an anecdote where I can be like, they've never done this before. This is huge. We need to capitalize it.

Speaker B: It's resonating.

Speaker C: It is. So we were like, let's, let's take it a step further. Let's Do a gif. So really common thing with VDI is you get like the wheel of death, right? Where it just spins and spins. And so we turned that letter into a gif. And so it was like, dear vdi, it's not me, it's. And then the wheel of death comes up, right? And once again, it actually outperformed the previous one, right? Because it had that little bit of motion on it. It added a little something. And so now we knew we, like, we have something. So let's build a campaign around VDI as a displacement. We're breaking up with you. We don't need you anymore. And kind of the creative centerpiece to this was a two minute video of Ari Yabloch actually wrote on his screen. Uh, you know, Ari, um, a breakup letter. A two minute breakup letter, uh, on a Google Doc 2 VDI. And we set it to really sappy piano music. And we had like 70% completion rate on that video. Two minute video on LinkedIn. That's just someone typing into a Google Doc. And again, we saw that laugh reaction. And so that's something where we can be like, okay, they get the humor. It's. We're hitting in a really sweet spot of like a pain point, but also the, the commisery, the commiserating that we're doing with them around this pain point is doing something for them is making them feel something, right? And so that's a point where you can be like, okay, we've done these three tests. We've seen the engagement. We've seen this unheard of completion rate. We have seen the laugh reaction, uh, used every single time, like, let's get some dollars behind this. That's a great case to build small

Speaker B: tests, look for signals, prove it works, then go big.

Speaker C: Heck yeah.

Speaker B: I love it. Well, I could talk to you all day, but all good things must come to an end. So thank you for joining me, sharing your experience and your expertise and your passion. I learned a lot, and I know our viewers did too.

Speaker C: Devin, uh, this is amazing.

Speaker B: Cut. Even though we don't cut, because it's a digital world.

Speaker A: That's a wrap for today. And if you're still listening, you must really crave growth, and I respect that. Here, uh, are three ways I can help you grow your content right now. First, subscribe to the reader newsletter. You'll get actionable writing and marketing advice delivered straight to your inbox every Saturday morning. Two, make sure you hit subscribe on YouTube so you get access to new episodes and new videos when they drop. And 3. If you want to sponsor or hire the reader, you can send me an email at yothereader Co. That's y o athereader Co. And if you're enjoying the show, make sure to drop us a five star review. It helps us get new sponsors and growth.

Speaker B: I'll see you next time.