Episode 104: New season: Job searching and other reflections

Speaker A: Welcome, welcome.

Speaker B: Welcome to Real Job Talk, the podcast with practical advice for mid career professionals. Hey Liz.

Speaker A: Hi Kat. Long time no see.

Speaker B: Long time no see. This is the longest we've gone.

Speaker A: It is m. It is. And there's been reasons for that.

Speaker B: There have been reasons. There have been reasons. Mhm.

Speaker A: And some of them we're going to dive into today

Speaker B: for sure.

Speaker A: What's been new with you since?

Speaker B: What's been new with me? I have been, I have been, I have been busy with work. I did have a surgery last spring that uh, that my recovery was a little bit longer than I expected. But all is well, I'm doing great and um, happy to be back on, um, on the air with you, Liz.

Speaker A: Sweet. So, yeah, and I've had lots of change in my world as well. Um, in March I started new job. Um, and before that I did a nine month job search. Um, and that's what we're going to kind of be talking about today is um, job searching in 2025 and what's changed, what's not, and some tips and tricks to hopefully help you get through it. Um, and how sometimes it lingers with you a little bit.

Speaker B: Yep, yep. Well, nine months is a, is a long time for a job search, but I suppose it's not that long given the level that you're at. It just take. The more senior you are, the longer the search takes. Um, but you know, I remember reminding that, reminding that to you a couple times, uh, during your search. And I know that's, you know, you know, easier, easier said and heard than actually navigating that much time. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, and it was hard because um, for me also, I don't have a traditional background. I didn't climb a ladder in the traditional way. So that doesn't help me stand out from other applicants, at least not in an applicant pool with an AI bot on top of it. Um, and also I took the wrong job. And so I had a red flag on my resume that isn't catastrophic but I had to learn to talk through it. And we'll talk about that today also. But like I had left one job, uh, my job got eliminated very understandably. All wonderful terms, still in touch with the people there. And then I did my first search and took a job against my gut and I'm sure you'll ask me about that. Um, and then left the job pretty shortly thereafter and had to figure out how do I tell this story and how do I put myself back out there and how do I trust myself after making A mistake and not following my gut and all these other things. And I do think that affected the longevity of the search. Also. The market has been goofy. Von goofy, and so that had to be navigated as well.

Speaker B: Well, let's go back. So we're looking for. For the. The job that was the wrong job. That was in 2024, right?

Speaker A: 2025. Uh, 2024, yes. January 2024. I started at a company, and it was not a fit for. From day one.

Speaker B: Okay. And before you accepted the job, you had a sense that maybe, maybe this wasn't going to be the perfect job for you. You want to give us a little bit of, you know, behind the scenes on that?

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, so it was. I was doing the job search. It was kind of a. Interesting market then, too. And, um, I got contacted by a recruiter, thought I would be perfect. The recruiter called me on a Saturday, red flag number one out of 75,000. But I won't go into all of them, um, and talk to him, then talk to the recruiter. And she really was operating from a place of fear. And that was kind of felt weird. But then I met the CEO, uh, and the office was in Austin. I've never really worked in Austin before. The CEO was a great guy. I'm having coffee with him on Friday. Like, love the guy. I'm like, okay, He's. He and I can do this together. I like his vision and this and that, but some of the things he was saying, I'm like, this might be tough, but I like the boss, so I'm gonna, you know, jump in. And the offer came, and another red flag. I hadn't talked to any peers, so I did ask to talk to a peer. Met this great guy who I really liked. He has since left also, as has anyone else I liked. But anyway, so there were red flags, but the money was right. It was in Austin. I like the CEO, So I went for it. Some of the other red flags, though, I should have just not done it. Little things like the job description that was clearly AI and hadn't even been proofread because it had cut and pastes from an accounting job. Another thing, when I got my offer, the benefits were horrible. Like, 60 days until they can start. I mean, this is a tech company. Like, what?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's not, um, really bad benefits.

Speaker A: I would never put my. My family and the benefits. And I did say, like, I can't take this if you're not going to let me get us better benefits. And I know my CEO was Definitely like on, uh, board with that, but above him, not so much. Um, and just there was some, some yucky feeling. Like my gut just was like, oh, this might be weird, and I wasn't feeling it, but I didn't have anything else. I had other things in the hopper. But, uh, a job's a job, a pays a paycheck. So I like to say that my brain and my wallet, um, outranked my gut. And, um, I will never let that happen again.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, and that was the first time too, I think, that you had been searching at that head of, you know, the head of HR kind of role. And so that had been a many month search as well. Right. It started off with that, but it was kind of like, well, you know, you look at the whole package and I mean, I can see having, you know, who you report up to is incredibly important. Right. And if you've got it, if you're going into it feeling like, well, I've got a really good relationship with the CEO and he and I seems to be on this. Seem to be on the same page and, you know, maybe, you know, uh, I'm gonna trust that this is gonna be a good thing. Which, you know, m. Had things worked out. It might have been. Right. I mean, your working relationship. You worked with him for a couple months and it went really well. It went well working with him, right?

Speaker A: Yeah. No, again, having coffee Friday. Great guy. Um, yeah. And, and, and I had been looking for about three months and it felt like a bird in the hand. And I had never really done a job search before.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: That's another thing to passively.

Speaker B: Yep. Always gotten just referrals from your network, which is great.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's great if you can get them. But, um, so, yeah, it was, it was one of those things where I was just like, all right, let's see. And my gut's got the number one vote now. Live and learn.

Speaker B: Live and learn. Yeah. And also maybe a little bit more, um, a little bit more focus on when I'm looking at an offer. Make sure that you've got that must have list filled out and really use that as your bottom line. When you're accepting a role, does it have the things that are most important to me?

Speaker A: And the benefits piece, as an HR leader, like, I need to be able to bring people on and feel good about the benefits we offer. And so that wasn't non negotiable, but knowing that the CEO was on board with making those changes and was going to help me navigate the owners, which were the problem. And I had never had owners before that were as involved as these ones were. Like, uh, I've had VC companies and the board meets once a quarter or even now I've got private equity, and, you know, they're involved, but not. Not on a weekly, daily basis, you know, over minutia. Like, nothing like that.

Speaker B: What I want to speak to is the way that this guy was. Barked orders and was, uh, you know, wanted a yes man. Wanted a yes man or yes. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So that's like. I mean, because that was. I remember that was one of the first conversations that we had.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, um, you know, that I think that. That, you know, when you're. When you're ruling with a heavy hand like that, it does. It does take away things like creativity and brainstorming and actually sharing your ideas because you don't feel like they really want you to.

Speaker A: Oh, no, they definitely did not. So what I learned really quickly and what I had sensed in the interview is that this is a company run with fear, and they had acquired a bunch of different companies, and it was an. It was a very, I would say, shady setup. Um, but the owners of the company operate with fear, and the people who work for them live in fear every day. Like, one person telling me they sleep with their phone in case they call. Are you kidding? Um, and I am someone, Kat. I think anyone who's heard any of these podcasts, I do have opinions and I have thoughts, and I'm ready to learn, and I want to dig in and I'll ask questions. And none of that was wanted. I was. They wanted people who said yes. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, so they weren't looking for an HR business partner. It sounds like. No. Yeah.

Speaker A: No, no.

Speaker B: So they're, you know, send one thing during the interview, and then when it comes down to it, completely different.

Speaker A: Completely. And. And so when my boss, who I really liked, he left over ethical issues, and on his last day, uh, I got a call from their HR person, and. And she's like, today's your last day.

Speaker B: And that was what, six, six weeks?

Speaker A: Eight weeks into, uh, three and a half months.

Speaker B: Three and a half months. Okay. It was longer than that. Okay.

Speaker A: And they were punishing my boss for leaving. Is. You know, I did nothing wrong, and it was a very sudden departure. But I will tell you, Kat, and I want. I can't emphasize enough. Even in the first job search, in the second job search, I come from a place of privilege. Like, my husband has a good job.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Uh, we were not at risk of Losing? Did we cut back? Of course. Two incomes are better than one. I know I'm not a mathematician, but that's the truth.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, but I wasn't at risk of losing, you know, things. My daughter was still going to go to college. Like, all those things were still happening.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Um, and so that is a very different lens than if I. If those things were at risk. Um, and I recognize that.

Speaker B: So, Liz, so you leave that role and probably right away you get started searching again. Right. What do you. I'm curious what felt different from the search previously and then after this experience.

Speaker A: The biggest difference was I was angry, Kat. I was so angry at myself. I know better. I know, you know, because you heard it. I was mad at them. I was mad. I wanted them to, like, suffer, you know, and then I had to figure out how to tell my story. And it took a bunch of interviews for me to figure it out. And, um, I just felt, like, lost. Like I didn't. I didn't feel like myself. I felt like I was. I had. I had a, you know, red flag on my resume and it didn't feel fair.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and I know life isn't fair, but, like, I didn't want to be doing this to my family again. I want. I really do pride myself in being a good role model for my kids, both my daughter and my son, of someone who can be there for them and also have a career. So this like, oh, mommy can't keep a job thing was kind of in my brain. So it was just hard. It was. And, uh, frankly, to go back to job searching stinks.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It's. You know, I sometimes tell people my poor sweet husband was like, how's it going today? I'm like, what? Screaming vulnerably into the wind all day. It's great. But that's what it is.

Speaker B: Right? Right.

Speaker A: You're asking. I'm a helper. I don't usually ask for help. I'm asking for help. I'm writing cover letters to go to into the Void. I'm writing emails to go into the Void. It's a soul sucking process that asks you to be vulnerable at a time that you feel vulnerable. It's horrible.

Speaker B: It is. It's not fun.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Being in a situation where you have to find a job.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Um, in fact, I did a little bit of research this afternoon, um, in anticipation of our conversation today, and apparently, um, indeed did a survey in 2024, um, of over 5,000 U.S. uh, workers. And, uh, you know, they were curious about what's holding them back or, you know, if they're, if they're. If they're currently in the market for a job and then also what is holding them back. Yeah. And they, you know, the stat that popped out at me, which I think is light, says one out of four job seekers experience job search anxiety.

Speaker A: Bs.

Speaker B: I think it's probably at least three out of four. But then again, you have to be vulnerable to share that you're being vulnerable. And, you know, you have to be transparent enough. And Liz, I, you know, I appreciate your willingness to have this conversation because, I mean, I can imagine just talking about it isn't. Isn't. Isn't terribly fun, but the, the whole point of doing it is to. To talk about, you know, what did you learn and what are. What are some of the best practices. And, you know, so, so I discovered today, I mean, I know that trauma is real. I mean, I, you know, show me a person who is on planet Earth in 2025 who hasn't been exposed to some kind of trauma. Right. I mean, yeah, but. But there are. There's job search trauma, M. There's past job trauma, and then there's the trauma that we have just from life that we bring into the work, you know, into the workforce with us. So there's. There's a ton of trauma. And, you know, for leaders, for leaders that are listening, uh, you know, the most important thing you can do as a leader is to be aware of the climate.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And to. And to put some. To put some, uh, things in m. Place that will show that you are aware and that you're able to support your, uh, employees.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: So we can talk about that a little bit more. But I do want to just say that, you know, job search anxiety is real, and I think a fair amount of people have them. And I think it's more. I'm going to push back on. Indeed. And say. I think it's a little bit more than 25%. I think it's a lot more.

Speaker A: A lot more. Because it's also the unknown. Right. Yes. I mean, look, it doesn't take a firstborn, you know, type A, even though you are. But like that, when am I going to get a job? What is it going to look like? Where am I going to work? What, What. And then when you've had a, uh, work thing of like, what if I make a mistake? And can I trust myself? Like the doubt and the, uh. Some people can jump into the unknown and bless those people like they're the I. Give me some of what you're having. I don't have any. So it's the. How long is this going to be and what's going to happen? And, and so, and we'll talk into some of the things that were helpful, but like hearing other people's stories. Sometimes, sometimes you're like, oh, yeah, you know, I hope I remember someone saying it's my eighth month of my job search. And I, like, got off that call and cried because I'm like, I can't do this for eight months. It turns out I can, but it's, you know, the fear of the unknown and when is this going to be over? And, uh, I've always said to job seekers, and I said this to myself about 7,000 times, every call is one step closer. Every call.

Speaker B: It's a numbers game. It's a numbering game, Liz. Every step, one step closer. Yeah.

Speaker A: How many steps is this?

Speaker B: Yep, yep.

Speaker A: Like how many times?

Speaker B: So, yeah. So obviously dealing with uncertainty.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I mean, this is clearly, clearly, you know, that's one of the hardest things about looking for a job is that you're dealing with uncertainty. And then another thing that comes up, according to the research, is, uh, imposter syndrome. And so we do have a couple of episodes, uh, that we've addressed imposter syndrome. Uh, the first one was episode 12 with, uh, Amy Lewis.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And the second One is episode 51 with Jop Pisker.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And, uh, you know, I would say, you know, I'd say there's a lot of good tidbits in both of those episodes, but, you know, it's perfectly normal to question ourselves in this, you know, in a job search situation, especially when it's back to back like this. So.

Speaker A: Totally. Especially. I will say that, you know, in some of it, and I can't wait to give some, some tips and tricks. But like, you know, someone doesn't write you back that you thought was like a reliable person in your network. And so it's that rejection cycle that's hard. And like, well, maybe they didn't like me and maybe, you know, and I will say the non traditional background did not help with the imposter syndrome of maybe it was just a fluke that at Support Logic I did really well and people like me and maybe I really stink to high heaven because I'm not doing what, you know, I'm not getting a job. People aren't buying what I'm selling.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And, you know, I had issues, but I think this isn't more of an hr that they wanted their top person to be many light levels lower than their top people for other departments. And I like. I'm like, no. One of my must haves. And I did do a must have list and, um, I stuck to it this time. But one of my must haves was that they, they, um, respected my department. And I don't think that had been on the first job search because I assumed it in a way, and they had to respect. And if you want me to be a director when everyone else is VPs and Cs, you don't respect my department.

Speaker B: Yep. Yep. Well, that's telling you right there that they're not probably. They're probably not interested in a business partner, and they're probably looking for an administrative HR department that's right. Where they don't want your input. And, you know, nothing wrong with that. It's just. That's not. That's not you.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's not a fit. I actually had one job where they said to me, we want a director who can grow into a head of it. I just said, um, I've already grown. And I mean, this was like five interviews in.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I didn't play the game. I was authentic. I'm like, I'm already grown. Like, I'm not going to grow into this job that I've already had.

Speaker B: In fact, to be a director, I might have to shrink.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Right. Okay.

Speaker A: Which is. There's nothing wrong with. It's not putting anyone down. But if all the other heads of department, uh, are called something else, why do you want me to be a director when it's over 80% of the cost of your company and you have 150 people? Like, it makes no sense.

Speaker B: Yeah. I really want to see the answer to that question for sure.

Speaker A: They wanted someone who could grow into the role.

Speaker B: So let's talk a little bit. You alluded a little bit to the disappointment, um, that you experienced. Uh, and I got to hear a little bit more of it because I tried to make sure that we were really staying in touch because I know how challenging this is and I know that waiting the six to nine months for that executive level role, I knew that that was going to be inherently challenging for you because. Well, because first of all, you never had to wait in the past. Uh, and just I know you. That's going to be challenging. You're going to want to do, do, do, which I think is, uh, you know, good to know yourself. Right. We're going to talk about that in a Little bit. But I want, you know, can you share what you're comfortable sharing about the ghosting that happened to you in the process and you know, and just, you know, the disappointment. And I don't want you to call out people, but like, you know, you, you are known as being so generous, um, with your time and you know, if someone, if someone wants an, if someone asks you for an introduction to someone at a company that, you know, you know it's done. You don't have to ask you twice.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And so, you know, you, you kind of go into this going, oh, well, everyone's, you know, you hope that everyone's like you and, and then you find out, wow, not that many people are like you.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, I found that the recruiting process is really busted. Broken. Big companies, small companies. Um, it'd be a week till I heard back and a week before, you know, like, it just, I, uh, couldn't believe how slow it was, if at all. I mean, why would you ask for a cover letter if you're not even going to give a no thank you note? Like, so of course you use Chat GPT for cover letters. But now on the receiving side, I'm like, I get the same cover letter from three different people, but I'm like, hey, I don't ask for cover letters. You know why? Because they're, they're wasted time, you know. And um, so anyway, it, I got ghosted at every phase. I mean, forget the application. Like it was even. Maybe 30%, you'd even hear back at all.

Speaker B: Um, that was one of the initial stressors. They said, uh, yeah, with the job searching process that the, the application process is just way too complicated for what it should be.

Speaker A: And Kat, so many of these companies don't even look at their application. Like I had one. I'll let the company remain nameless. Who asked for my Twitter handle? And when I put in my X handle because, you know it's not called Twitter anymore, it rejected it. So I had to type in Twitter for it to move on to the next phase in icims. I'm like, maybe you want to review your application once in a decade or so. It's like stuff like that and just so much information re entering and reentering just to apply to a job you're not going to hear back from. Oh, awesome. Um, but that didn't even bother, like the application piece, like eye roll, but like, whatever. But then there were some that really made you do a lot of work and not hear back from those. It was like, thanks. Uh, it also told me something about them. Um, I got, I mean I got ghosted after doing an hour long presentation. Like, I got all the way to the end. We love you, we love you, we love you. And then cricket after the presentation. And um, and there were some like, May, you know, I wasn't like, this is my dream job, I love it, I need to work here. But it was still, I really liked the people and it just hurt. It was like. And again, I've, I've spent my career not doing that. Like, I do this podcast to help people. I really, I've spent, spoken at conferences.

Speaker B: Yeah, anyone who knows you knows who you are and what you, what you do for your community. Right?

Speaker A: I mean, yes. And, and so it was that feeling of like, you get what you give, except. But then I, I was like, tried to really focus on the helpers and people like you who are on my board of advisors who were absolutely critical to me. Not, you know, just giving up hope, but, um, I just really try to focus on the positive and not spin out on the negative. So my biggest takeaway, and if you learn anything from my story, uh, is that you have to protect your mental health at all costs in a job search. And whatever you have to do to do that is what you have to do. Because you lose that and you go negative and you go despair and you go self pity and imposter. It's gonna come across and you won't move your job search forward.

Speaker B: Okay, so can you break it down a little bit how you protected your mental health? My guess is that there's probably some self care woven into this.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, so, so what I did, and I did this with, so what I knew is I was like, I never have free time so I'm gonna take advantage and I'm gonna take that 9:00am um, exercise class. Look at me being crazy. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for a walk with a friend. I'm gonna meet someone for coffee or for lunch. I'm like, I'm going to live your life. Live my life. I'm gonna make plan dinner and like enjoy it. Not feel like a chore. I, I'm going to, that I haven't cleaned. Like, so it was like those things that I didn't have time for. I was, I wove in, uh, while making sure to still exercise and eat right and all those things that I do anyway. But I, but when I'm job searching, I'm not doing it at 6am that is for sure. But um, so it was just slower. Like I'd wake up at 7:30 and get my kids to school and then exercise and then I'd say saunter into my office at like 10:30, like who is this? But it was me, um, then, and I learned as I went. Right. So one of the things I did was I put together a list of potential questions. There's a website that I found really valuable called Yoodly. You can definitely use AI for this. But I used Yoodly and it would interview me, which is weird to be interviewed by a robot by the way. And uh, but it interviewed me and gave me some, some um, pointers on my interviewing like just to do things like situation, you know, what I did, outcome, um, that kind of thing.

Speaker B: And we'll put that link, we'll put that link in the, in the show notes so you'll have it.

Speaker A: But I wrote a list of potential questions they could ask and answers so that I wouldn't get caught in like the last job drama. Like I had really crisp answers to all potential pitfall questions and that was helpful. But what I really learned was that days spent doom scrolling LinkedIn were the worst and would put me into a tailspin because it was either doom and gloom about the economy, doom and gloom about the government, doom and gloom about this person is about to be kicked off their, out of their house, or

Speaker B: about the latest tech, the latest tech, big layoff. Yeah.

Speaker A: Or, or someone who, oh, I got a job and it would only take me a week. Or you know, like the humble brag stuff. Which I'm not saying don't put that on there. I'm saying for when you're a uh, job seeker, especially after a couple months, that becomes, you know, triggering.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So I, I, I said to myself, you know what, I need to spend as little time in this office as possible.

Speaker B: Smart.

Speaker A: As little time on job searching as possible. So every day I'd go, I'd scroll, I'd apply to the new jobs, I'd follow up on things, but I wasn't gonna just sit there scrolling.

Speaker B: So an hour or two maybe, maybe.

Speaker A: And as I um, minimized it, which is completely counterintuitive, but once I did that, like so when I, and I did a lot of things over time, but I really minimized the job searching that helped. I also stopped researching. So much so in the beginning when I had an interview, I'm researching and learning everything and then I get on with these recruiters and they'd be like, I'm going to tell you all about the company and the job. I know, I know. And I was like doing everything I could to not have my face look all frustrated and like annoyed because I'm like, move it along, friend. I already know this. So I stopped doing all the research. Now I knew what the company did, I knew about the company size. I read the job description.

Speaker B: Which means you probably did more research than the average, than the average candidate does. But you didn't do a deep dive into five hours into it kind of thing, which is fine.

Speaker A: No deep diving, no deep diving, because it's going to be answered anyway. So I felt like that brought me. I'm like, oh, interesting. Tell me more about that versus like being annoyed because they were using all my interview time to tell me stuff I already knew.

Speaker B: Yep. So you made you felt more receptive to the process.

Speaker A: So Liz's job search. Don't do it too much and don't research. It's great. Uh, great, great advice.

Speaker B: But you know, from when you started, there was one, one thing that you did with a couple companies that I know of.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: That I feel is when you, you kind of turn the corner. Because I felt like, oh my goodness, my Liz is back.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you want to talk about that?

Speaker A: Yeah. So the other thing. So a few other things I did, I joined support groups. I ended up having like three or four, uh, HR leaders and transition groups. And like, honestly, it was a lot of support groups, but I really met a number of lovely people. I just kept getting invited. I'm like, you never know where it's

Speaker B: going to come from.

Speaker A: So I just kept doing it and I did uh, something that was interesting and I met some people through that, like, had some interesting conversations. I got time. Why not? Um, it was kind of like lunch club or something like that. Um, and so, but the things that I did that I think was the biggest delta for me was I started. So I did a lot of volunteering.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Um, and people who know me, I already do.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: But, um, I started volunteering, doing career coaching. Uh, so. So I've always, I've been involved with Dress for Success for here in Austin for years. But I was like, whatever you need. And I meant it. I was there once or twice a week doing career coaching or styling. I did a job. I did a search for them for one of their open positions. I helped with HR stuff, whatever they needed. Um, and that made me feel like me. And when the executive director was like, oh, this is so helpful, like, this is what I do. And I did that for another organization as well, they had an, um, employee relations issue. I was all up in the business because I had nothing but time, but guess what? It made me feel like me. That's what I do.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And so those two things on top of what sparks, joy, yoga class and late exercise and all these other things all together and feeling like I was helping others, um, it made me feel like myself instead of this vulnerable, needy person which has never been me. And I think that came out in the search and gave me my mojo back.

Speaker B: Great. Yeah, I, like I said, I. Once you started doing those volunteering gigs, I was like, ah, uh, my girl's back. Right. It just, it was like night and day. And I know that it was more than that. It was a lot more than that. But I think that that is really, you know, not that you're giving advice, but I'll, you know, I'll give advice for you on this. It's like if you are looking for work, especially if you're in a senior role, go do some volunteering with what you normally do. And that just having that experience will help to remind you of who you are and what you do and what you bring to the table. And all of that is going to be super, super helpful for your, your emotional status, for your mental health. Yes.

Speaker A: And that is so key because like I was doing like social media for my son's wrestling team. Like I, again, I would do anything for anyone, just keep me busy. But that didn't make me feel like me. It was nice to be able to do it because you know me, full time job cannot do that stuff. So that's.

Speaker B: You weren't working, you weren't working within your, your genius level. Right. With that, what you do really, really well. And you, you are very good at what you do.

Speaker A: And, and even the dress for success stuff, when it was like once a week, like, that was great. It would give me this highlight, but it wasn't as consistent. And then I started do more and get more involved with the organization itself and that's really where it turned. And with the other organization that I'm not naming because it was personnel, was a ton of work, but it's my work, that's what I do. It was really tough though. Once I got a job and they still needed help, I'm like, oh. Then it became a little bit much. But no, it was all good and I was happy to do it and still am. And um, yeah, as I said, protecting your mental health is number one. But for me, the thing that protected. It was beautiful feeling like myself.

Speaker B: Right. So in other words, you know, you're. You're in this situation that you don't have a lot of control over, but you very quickly started controlling what you could control. Mhm. Right. So you could, you could take, you know, you could make sure that you were, you know, taking good care of yourself. You were, you know, maybe not waking up as early since you didn't have to. Right. But still at the 9:00am Fitness class. Right. Doing all the things that.

Speaker A: Hm.

Speaker B: You know are going to support you and living your best life. Mhm. And also not being a slave to the job search. Mhm.

Speaker A: No, I owned it.

Speaker B: Um, that's great.

Speaker A: And not letting it suck me in, like limiting it so that it wouldn't suck me in, um, was key, but it was hard. Like the things that I didn't anticipate being hard that were, were like social situations. I found myself withdrawing social, socially and not going to group things because I didn't want someone to ask, how's work? Or something like that and have to go into it and you know, which, that. But I would force myself to go to some networking things. Like I'd force it, but it was hard again because it's like that screaming vulnerably into the. Well, actually I'm looking. Oh, you're still looking. Like I did. I like, I pulled back from that a lot. Um, because it would just make me feel crappy. I don't like feeling like someone's pitying me. And that may be a me thing,

Speaker B: but like, I don't think too many people enjoy that.

Speaker A: No. So I only put myself in situations where I felt comfortable.

Speaker B: Okay, good for you.

Speaker A: Except for if I felt like I should do this for networking and then I'd force myself. Like I definitely forced myself to go to networking things at least, at least once a month, if not more. I, I made myself do it.

Speaker B: Good, good. Any surprises? Like what surprised you during this process?

Speaker A: It, uh, really surprised me when I let go a little bit that that's when things came together. Um, it also like, in the end I had a number of opportunities that were going again. Like all of a sudden I like was like whatever. And then all of a sudden. And the other thing that is important is that the two main opportunities that I was looking at at the end were both through a nonprofit board I had been on 10 years ago.

Speaker B: Oh, interesting.

Speaker A: My CEO and then the CMO at the other one. Okay. Uh, had been on this board. We had all been on this board Together.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Um, and so you never know, um, where you're going to meet people. Um, and volunteering is just really important. But, um, having the two, I was really able to use my must have and all of that. And, uh, I don't know what really surprised me was that I kind of leaned into my kind of new life, like, once I had to stop fighting being a job seeker and just lean into being a job seeker and, like, list all the things I was grateful for. I met a lot of really great HR people through this search and leaders, and I gave back to them and they helped me and I helped them and we helped each other and supported each other and cheered each other on through the suck and just validated the suck with each other and validated the weird market. Um, support. Support is everything. Um, and I mean, I'm really lucky again, I'm really lucky for a lot of reasons, but my husband is a mensch. Um, he's so supportive of me. And that's, that's. He, you know, he. He was, he went through it too. Um, another thing I really leaned into that probably surprised me is like, I. My husband does a lot of the household stuff because I go into an office and he doesn't. And so, um, I just took that all off his plate. I'm like, all right, I'm a stay at home mom now. Like, I've got it all. And what surprised me in the end, as happy as we all were that I was going back to work, um, I felt bad giving it back.

Speaker B: Oh, interesting.

Speaker A: I felt like I was burdening him. Like, I felt like one of the silver linings was that I got to unburden him. I did all the groceries, I did all the cooking, I did all the kids stuff. Like, he didn't have to worry about any of it. Um, and then I was like, drop that in his lab and run. Um, well, but I mean, you weren't

Speaker B: dropping at all in his lap. You were kind of, you know, I'm sure sharing the responsibilities.

Speaker A: No, but, um. But you know what? That's. That's the deal we have. Right? And so. But you asked what surprised me. It surprised me how badly I felt about the good, the natural consequences of me going back to work and what that did to him after he had dealt with this hot mess, expressville wife for nine months. And I'm like, all right, here's the cooking. So that was. I wouldn't have expected feeling guilty about that.

Speaker B: Okay. And were you surprised by, uh, Were you surprised about how, how, how the Helpers are not necessarily the helpers that we expect.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, another. Like, some people were amazing. Like, you know, I hadn't talked to them in forever, and they were right away and wonderful. And another really big surprise was some people that I'd worked with earlier on in my career who I know were big fans of mine been. But they kind of have me stuck. Like, oh, if I was looking for a recruiter, I'm like, ah, dude, I. That. That. That ship sailed. Like, um, that I. I was a little bit stuck. Um, they.

Speaker B: Their careers. Their careers had grown, but they didn't. They didn't make the connection that yours. Yours had as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, no. And so they weren't as apt to think of me for those roles and that. And there was one role in particular that I know I would have been up for, that someone else had been hired, like, a month before I was available, and it was like, oh, I just missed it, you know? And.

Speaker B: And there was another one, too, that I think you thought was your dream job.

Speaker A: Oh, for sure, there was one.

Speaker B: There was one that was. That kept on going on long and long with a former colleague kind of thing. And, um, yeah, that kind of. I'm a little surprised that that one didn't come through, because I think that. I think both of us thought that one was gonna gel.

Speaker A: Perhaps that was the one. If you're thinking of the one I'm thinking of. It was at the beginning, but it really was a huge stretch for me. Like, I've never been the leader for a large organization. I would have been better as a number two in that spot. And there wasn't a number two. And I talked to someone about potential number two, but, like, so that was one job I sort of made up for myself. And then there was one at the end that I made up for myself. That was a dream job, and it didn't exist. And I met the CEO, and that company is doing fabulously, and I'm so excited for them. Um, and I was a contender. I was, like, going back and forth with the hiring manager and just never fully. I talked to a number of people. They were all awesome. It just. Just never fully materialized in time.

Speaker B: Gotcha.

Speaker A: And it wasn't meant to be. And that's okay. I wish them the absolute best. I might actually buy their product for my current company.

Speaker B: Oh, perfect. Perfect.

Speaker A: Who knows? Who knows? Hard feelings, but I wrote the job description, and that's ridiculous. And you do what you got to do.

Speaker B: Can you speak a little bit to, um. To the new role and any surprises there? Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so I am the VP of people at company called Skimmer. We're vertical SaaS, uh, for pool professionals. So we help pool pros run their business. M. The people are amazing. The culture is fantastic. Ah, really genuine, authentic, um, really good business. And I'm just, I'm having a blast.

Speaker B: Um, and it's Austin based.

Speaker A: Right. Which is Austin, which is what you've

Speaker B: wanted, you've really wanted to get there for years. I know this is the second time now, but this is the one that's gonna work. Yeah. This is the one that's working.

Speaker A: The other one.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and I've been there for over seven months.

Speaker B: Um, wow, that's, that's flown by.

Speaker A: Um, and it's been fantastic. Like I have all good things, but I will tell you, you know, one cancelled meeting, you know, it's like, oh, oh. You know, and, and it's taken me this long. Like in the beginning it was way worse. Now I'm doing a lot better. But like, I did not know how badly that silly three and a half month job would affect me and rock my, like, rock me in my core of like, well, I'm gonna not show my full self as fast and I'm gonna, you know, like I, I really feel like I was not trusting in myself. Um, and like, and yet there were all these wonderful set. Like just funny things that like I'm like the come. Like we, we joke. Like there's, I'm looking at this like branded thing that we have that, you know, it's just tongue in cheek. Which is very light, which is very me. We care about our customers deeply. We care about our employees deeply. Like values align alignment.

Speaker B: Yeah. Which is, which is what we about all the time. If, if the values are not aligned, it's not going to be a good long term fit. And that's, you know, every time you've spoken to me about this job it's like, ah, I'm so glad, um, you know, that, that you have that. Because when we have that, it's probably going to be a good thing. If the values are aligned, there's not going to be as much internal conflict.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I feel like I can do my best work and you know, but it's hard if like someone's like, oh well, have you thought about this? And I'm like, they don't trust me. You know, like, I go immediately to like a dark place and then I have to like talk myself off it. So it's. There's there's been some goofy but. Which isn't Skimmer's fault. That's. That's. That's. That's a me problem.

Speaker B: Well, that's, you know, you're bringing, you know, you're bringing your whole self into the. Into the position.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And we. When we bring our whole selves, you know, there. You know, there are. You know, there are. There are lots of different parts, and sometimes those parts come out to play. Right. But I want to talk. I want to leave folks with, um, you know, I think you've given some really good advice here on what worked for you. And, you know, as someone who. Who does volunteer work, too, it's just. It's the best thing since sliced bread. I mean, I, you know, I do, um, Meals on Wheels delivery on Wednesday mornings in my community, and I just love it. And, you know, and now I've got a couple senior friends that I go and help them with a thing or two, you know, one one ladies up the hill and, you know, needs help. Help emptying. You know, when she gets a. When she gets a grocery order, I just put it in her fridge and I take her trash out. But it's like, it's no big deal to do that. It. You know, it takes me five minutes to. But, uh, but I end up feeling so good. Right. So we want to, like, you know, what. If you're in this situation, figure out what makes you feel good and do more of that. Right. Right. And also, I just. I think it's. I want to make sure that we, you know, that there is help available too. Right. If. If you have been, like, if you have previous work trauma or any kind of trauma, really, but especially if it's in the workplace, there are therapists and psychologists who specialize in that, who can help you. And there are different techniques that actually can get you from point A to point B. They can get you to a more neutral space and feeling more like yourself. And I just want to make sure that, um, people know that there are places and we can. We can share some links, too, on the show notes. But if, you know, if, you know, it's important to have. It's critical to have a personal board of advisors, like Liz and I are on each other's board. And if we've got an issue, we can call each other. We know each other well. Um, we can offer some practical advice to each other or just listen. Sometimes people just want to be heard. But if you are struggling with depression or anxiety from. From job search or any kind of trauma. Don't be afraid to go and, and get some help.

Speaker A: Yep. And you bring up yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And also know that there are scammers out there. And that was another thing. Like there's a lot of scammy jobs. There's lots of scammy resume people, scammy career people. And ask someone that's in the business before hiring anybody. Um, there are some amazing people doing amazing work, helping job seekers. And there are some awful people out there doing bad things. And so that wasn't a problem for me because I'm a person you can ask about that. But I know many, many people. And some of the people that I work with at dress because I do career coaching and stuff there, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. They're like, no, it looks good. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I just really asks. Before you give anyone a dollar or anything, you ask someone who can evaluate it for you. Um, it's so important. But yes. Make sure you get the help, advice and support that you need in a time that, you know, vulnerable.

Speaker B: Great. The other thing you touched on, Liz, that I don't think, you know, I didn't, I didn't help to underscore with you is you, you know, you said that. Well, then, you know, then you just started thinking about everything that you were grateful for. So don't underestimate the, the power of gratitude.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, you know, and with the, uh, with the uh, the anger and the resentments, you know, whatever you can do to release those and if you need to maybe, you know, practice forgiveness. Not for them, for you.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And just, you know, and realize that there is a lot of love out there. There's a lot of people that want to help for sure. And sometimes it's hard to be vulnerable when we are in this vulnerable place of looking for work. But you know, if there's someone you trust, don't be afraid to be vulnerable and to share how you really feel.

Speaker A: Yeah. Right.

Speaker B: Because you know, when you name it, you can claim it and then it's out of your body. Right. It's sometimes just, just talking about something can help alleviate a little bit of internal anxiety.

Speaker A: Right. No, it's true. And like, I just, I tried to be like. Because it wouldn't. It was making me really mad. And then the injustice and all the things. Right. And then I'm like, I just had to be like, I'm, um, not. Why would I let them have that power over me? Like why I'M not going to let that job that had so little respect for me or my function to not even get back to me. Like, I'm going to let them hold me back from something that could be me said to eventually be great. No, I'm not giving them that power and kind of going at it from there. And some were easier than others. Like the one where I had done a full presentation that was free consulting, which I can't stand doing, and then got ghosted. Yeah. After talking to them for six months, like that ticked me off.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I had to feel that. I had to feel my feelings a little bit and, you know, get it out and then be like, wait, I'm not going to have them hold me back from these other opportunities that I've got on my plate that are really good.

Speaker B: Also, you know what, people show you who they really are. And for someone to put you through that process and not even say thank you, that's not someone you want to work with.

Speaker A: Yes. Especially when I followed up for sure. Another really good piece of advice is to not make yourself feel thirsty. So, like, I would send a thank you note. Always send thank you notes. Then if I hadn't heard in a week, I would follow up and maybe I'd follow up the second time. But probably not. If they couldn't get back to me, especially after two follow ups, do I want to work with them?

Speaker B: Probably not.

Speaker A: I've had people fall through the cracks. Um, but if they follow up. And I always tell them to, but if they follow up, I'll like, there's no crack. Right. And so if I was following up more than once, maybe twice, and they couldn't even say, oh, sorry, we went in another direction, I'm over you. And again, that's a place of privilege that can just be over it and move on. Right, sure.

Speaker B: And if they're going to be avoiding something as mildly uncomfortable as that, what else are they avoiding?

Speaker A: Right, right, right. Hide behind your email friend. Like, come on.

Speaker B: M. All right. Anything, um, else we want to cover here today?

Speaker A: Liz, if I have to sum it up, it's, you know, we say it in almost every single episode, but must have list really know where. And you can have multiple. Like you can look for middle sized companies, look, doing this or small companies doing this. Like you can definitely have different searches going at once. That's totally cool. But must haves is a number one. Um, the second is protect your mental health at all costs. What do you have to do to bring joy into your life every day and in tandem with that, what do you have to do in your life to have purpose in your life every day? If you love dogs and want to go to the shelter and watch shelter dogs, awesome. And if you're a marketing person and you can offer that shelter some free marketing advice, awesomer. So m try to find something that makes you feel like you and do what you do, but bring joy into your life every single day. And that gratitude list is important. That you can slow down or you can do this. And last but not least, minimize your job searching. Don't blow it off for a week and do nothing. Like that is not what I'm saying. But doom scrolling is a no go. Doom scrolling is just that. So get in, do what you need to do, get out and spark joy and find yourself people, preferably people in similar situations, um, that can support you and be a support for you. And like, it was great to have groups of other job seekers because I felt, you know, you don't want to burden Kat too much. Like I don't want to burden my friends too much, but, but have a group of folks that you that are positive, like Debbie Downer in that group, that's no bueno, but like you. So really make sure that you're connecting with other people and that you're doing new things every week and not just going on applying every LinkedIn job and getting off. Like, do new things, reach out to new people, take a new approach and just keep being creative in how you're approaching it and reaching out to people in your network. But find the joy. Just find the joy. And if you need to get a, uh, job to tide you over that doesn't spark joy again, your joy to non joy ratio is something you have to really protect.

Speaker B: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Liz.

Speaker A: Thank you. Until next time, this is Real Job Talk, the podcast with practical advice for mid career professionals.

Speaker B: Our website with all Real Job Talk related information is realjobtalk.com we'd love to hear from you.

Speaker A: Please send us your questions, topics you'd like to talk about and Real Job Talk stories and you may find them featured on a future episode. Use the website or email us@realjobtalkmail.com you

Speaker B: can follow us on Twitter ealjobtalk and

Speaker A: on Facebook and Instagram ealjobtalkshow.

Speaker B: My name is Kathleen Nelson Troyer. You can find me on Twitter aileycat and on LinkedIn.

Speaker A: I'm Kathleen Nelson Troyer and I'm Liz Bronson. On Twitter I'm LizBConsult and on LinkedIn, I'm Liz Bronson.

Speaker B: Real Job Talk is produced by John Mark Troyer. Our graphic artists are, uh, Lexi and Zachary Bronson. And thanks for joining us. Until next time,

Speaker A: Sam.