Episode 103: ADHD and neurodivergence at work with Skye Waterson

Speaker A: Welcome, welcome. Welcome to Real Job Talk, the podcast with practical advice for mid career professionals. I'm Kat.

Speaker B: And I'm Liz. And today we're going to be talking with a very special guest, Sky Waterson, about working with neurodivergent teams and bosses and how to effectively work with colleagues who have adhd, ASD or other neurodivergent challenges and superpowers.

Speaker A: But before we start with sky, uh, we wanna talk with you about our new partner, Magic Mind. Magic Mind is a reclaim your brain shot of Matcha and all sorts of other good things, including mushrooms that help you to focus and sleep and all of that other good stuff. Liz and I have been taking this for the last month or so and we're recording this afternoon and I took my shot just right before we started recording today. And one of the things that I really love about Magic Mind, as opposed to some of the other mushroom teas that I've been experimenting with over the last year, is that, uh, this just comes in a two ounce shot so I can take it immediately. It's in me and I don't have to worry about my tea getting cold or forgetting to drink it. So I have become a fan of this. And Liz, what do you think?

Speaker B: I use the Focus one and I've enjoyed it. I feel like it helps me focus. And luckily they are willing to continue the Magic Mind Bundle.

Speaker A: Go to www.magicmind.com realjobtalk20 for a 20% off discount or go directly to the

Speaker B: link from the show notes and you can check it out. And it's 100% money back guarantee, so no real risk there and see if you like it and maybe you'll feel more focused. Which Magic Mind? Helpless Focus. It's a perfect lead in for our guest, Sky Waterson, who is located Auckland, New Zealand. Sky is a certified coach for ADHD professionals, helping them to excel in the workplace. She's the founder and host of the ADHD Skills Lab and the coaching program Unconventional Conversations. Welcome Skye, and please tell us how you got to where you are today.

Speaker A: Welcome Sky.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks guys. I will say I work, um, New York hours. I work mostly with people in the us so very cool to be chatting with you today. And um, yeah, my journey has been an interesting one. I'm a former academic, um, was going through my PhD. I got a scholarship for that and I just knew something was different and I had to figure it out if I was going to make it through the PhD without the burnout. That I had had throughout my career so far. So I went to my inclusive learning center, asked them what was, you know, what it was, and they said, yep, we think you should go get tested for adhd. And I was, it's a real shift. And then it transformed my life. I moved into researching adhd, talking about it, um, and then when Covid hit, I ended up teaching about it. Um, and, um, yeah, developed into this organization now where I teach, um, teach business owners, CEOs, directors with ADHD how to manage and grow without the burnout.

Speaker B: Awesome. And thank you for doing that on behalf, um, of all of us who have people with ADHD that we love in our lives. What are some of those top pieces of advice that you give to people with ADHD in the corporate world? What top tips and tricks or tools that you recommend?

Speaker C: Yeah, so usually when people come to me, it's because they're in some combination of overwhelmed, uh, stuck or inconsistent. That's usually what's happening. The inconsistency piece often comes from. From, uh, dopamine struggles. The overwhelm comes from working memory and time blindness. And then the stuck is just a great combination of all the three. And so we tend to find ourselves. You know, when I work with people, I tend to really, you know, understand where they're going. Like, for example, if I'm talking to people who are running departments or businesses, I'll get a sense of, okay, what do they need to achieve? Uh, like, what is happening? What is the biggest struggle here? And then we go in and we discover which, um, executive functioning struggles are affecting them the most. And that's the thing that we sort of attack first in the nicest possible way. The whole process is really nice. Um, um, and then we build those systems in, and then we kind of go from there. So people start to see shifts quite quickly.

Speaker A: That's amazing. I want to hear more about that, the hope, because I have some folks in my life with ADHD who were diagnosed, uh, as adults, and, uh, you know, I think they've learned some tools and some tips, but I think that there's still a fair amount of struggle. And I think that that is, um, you know, that's something that I am challenged with, responding to because I want to help, but, uh, I want to help in a constructive way.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think that's the tricky part. You know, one of the things that people often say about what I do, and to be honest, it was just because I couldn't help myself, is that what we do is very research Based. So when, you know, when I talk about these strategies and things, it's not because it's what I use, although that is very true. It's because we've done the work of like looking at the research, understanding what is, you know, what supports adhd. Then, you know, I test it, then we test it with one on one clients and then it becomes a strategy that we teach. So, you know, generally when people come to me, especially if they're in that kind of, you know, middle management place, it's because they're kind of rock and hard place. They know they, you know, I was talking to someone just yesterday, they're in line for a promotion. This is a big one, it's going to be great. But there's that little piece of fear. Like, one, is my organizational struggles going to stop me from even getting this promotion? And then two, let's say I do get this promotion because I'm working really hard and I'm potentially on the edge of burnout. You know, um, is this new level going to push me to a point where I can't actually do it and I'm going to kind of fall apart. And so usually people are coming because they're in that position. And so what I do is I help them understand how to work with their brains. And it's just, it's just an adjustment, it's not a full shift. Usually they're kind of doing stuff. They just don't know which piece is the helpful one that's helpful.

Speaker A: Well, before we dive into, you know, the tools and tricks on how to manage a neurodivergent boss, tell us the challenges you see in executives and professionals you coach who have ADHD and need help to succeed in the workplace. When you think you're working with someone with adhd, what are some of the signs?

Speaker B: How do we know that that's what we're trying to manage up? Like, what do we know? What are our.

Speaker C: That's a good point because not everyone

Speaker A: knows they have it, right?

Speaker C: Right, yes, not everyone knows they have it and not everybody who has it will necessarily show up as having it. So it's complicated, right? It's very different. But generally speaking, if we're going to talk broad terms here, usually the people who have ADHD are not going to be the best at things like timelining. So if we go back to the example of what I was talking about with a, uh, client yesterday, it's like, you know, the idea of how long it's going to take you to do something is More of a vague concept. If you say to somebody, how long do you think that's going to be? It could be tomorrow, it could be

Speaker A: the end of the week.

Speaker C: It's probably not going to be further than that, no matter what it is. Um, and so this is kind of where we go with adhd. So that's a huge struggle. Um, and then it's also breaking it down. So people can. You can kind of have somebody with ADHD and they'll come and they'll be like, I'm completely stumped. I don't know how to do this. I need to, like, go away and really think about this. And if you're neurotypical, you might go, oh, well, you just do A, B, C, D, E, F, G. But you have executive functioning working memory online. And they don't. So they just look at it and it just says question mark. And so those are kind of that. And then timeliness as well. Just if somebody's taking too long in a meeting because they just keep. Like, how do they not realize it's five minutes per person? My God, like that kind of thing. That's usually the sign of adhd. It's also a sign that you need to get a clock and put it on the back of the meeting room.

Speaker B: Yes, yes. And I find, at least in my life, what I see is the ability to knock something out. Like, oh, my gosh, just go knock it out. It'll just take five minutes. Just. That is not a concept that my ADHD friends are able to do.

Speaker C: No, no, not without the right strategies. And this is the thing, and I will say, especially with adhd, it's like, there are strengths. So creative problem solving, creative thinking, original, um, thinking. These are really good, but they do require a lot of focus, time. And so with adhd, transition times are a big struggle. So meeting, meeting, meeting. One hour of deep work. Meeting, meeting. This is not a good day for someone with adhd.

Speaker B: So this is kind of a weird question, uh, but do you think folks with adhd, like, what makes them a good boss? Like, why do you want to work for someone with ADHD versus to stay away from this person who can't timeline with them or et cetera?

Speaker C: That's a great question. So what I will say is that obviously everyone has to be nice to work with, but we're assuming everyone is nice. In the case of people with adhd, they can have some real tangible benefits to having an ADHD boss. If you're running, say, a, uh, startup business or some business that's needing to navigate choppy waters. Because having somebody who's. Whose first instinct is to action and then having somebody who's able to think their way creatively out of the problems that life continues to throw at us at a seemingly ever increasing rate is very, very important. If you don't have that, you can find yourself stuck with a business that's just slowly going downhill. For those of you who've ever had that horrible sinking feeling you don't have that person who's going to drive. Drive the bus, you know, to where it needs to go.

Speaker B: Awesome. Thank you. Very cool.

Speaker A: So not. We talked about this, but not everyone is open to sharing that they may have a, uh, neurological difference. Right. What do you suggest both to professionals and for the people with adhd? How do you recommend they share their challenges? And then also, um, how do you suggest someone who's working for someone approach the subject of the challenges?

Speaker C: Yeah, so, yeah, so people don't always feel comfortable. You know, it's a privilege of mine that I get to find out just how many people with ADHD there are. But I don't talk about a lot of my clients by name. I have any wonderful people who share it because of that reason, because people don't want the stigma or the potential stigma. Um, so, yeah, what I tend to recommend, and I talk about this a lot actually, is if you don't feel comfortable disclosing your adhd, talk about how you work best. You know, I work best in this environment. I work best with this kind of thing. Everybody has preferences to how they work best. You're just clearly stating your preferences. And if you don't know what they are, then you probably need to go and talk to somebody and get that support. Because telling your boss that you have ADHD isn't going to help you if you don't know what you need to do that to manage that.

Speaker B: Ding, ding, ding. I worked with someone who had every meeting. Oh, that was my ADHD brain. Oh, that was like, okay, but you didn't get it done. Like, what am I supposed to do with that? And of course, as an HR person, I'm like, oh, you know, they're protected.

Speaker C: And yeah, this is a problem that I get into a lot. I had the opportunity to work with the New, um, Zealand government, um, a couple of times with their health department and with their intelligence services. And it was a conversation. People came to me a lot like, well, this person says they have adhd and now I feel like I can't do anything, and et cetera. Et cetera. And, you know, what I would say is just, it's the same as everybody. People want flexibility, and people want to work in a way that works for them best. And then you want people to meet their requirements based on what they need to do, um, with that flexibility and support. And maybe people aren't great at that, then, as with anybody, you'd move them to a space where they're going to thrive. So this is just, it's. It's actually very simple like that.

Speaker A: That's one of the basic tenets to managing up. You know, find out who you're working with, especially your. Who your boss is, and find out how they like to communicate, how they like to be communicated with. The easier we can make it for them, the better. So I think that that is, uh, if there's any kind of uncomfortableness about having that conversation, just know that that is just part of managing up by getting. Getting to know who you're working with. And I, you know, I recommend it. It's not only your bosses, it's your colleagues, too. Figure out. Figure out what's going to be best. And if you communicate with them in the way that they want you to communicate with them, they're gonna love you because you're making life easier for them. And being, uh, an easy colleague or someone who, you know, who picks things up, that all of that is. Are good. Are good traits to have, right?

Speaker C: Yes, exactly. And when we talk about managing up, I think it's important to speak, say, just for anyone who's curious. It's like, what we're talking about is the idea that, like, when we're talking about people with ADHD, like, they are often more likely to be CEOs, to be managers of companies, which is something that people often don't think about or don't realize. Um, and they're just not necessarily disclosing it or disclosing it to you. And so when we are managing, you know, when you're in a position and I'm very. I'm very privileged. I have a lot of. I have a team of people who support me. M. They don't all have adhd. Some of them do. Um, and so it really does come down to the same core principles and tenants. Yeah, like you said, understanding how they work, um, you don't have to have a conversation about adhd. They might not be comfortable sharing it or. M. Maybe they'll sort of, you know, a lot of times, especially with CEOs, if you say, do you have ADHD? They all go, oh, probably. But it hasn't affected them because they're running the company so they're not exactly like in a position. Sometimes it is and then they'll come to me and we'll work on you know, systems and processes places. But often it is, you know, really important to understand how somebody works and if they don't, if you don't fully understand it, ask how they work. You don't have to ask how they met, how to manage their adhd. You can just ask, hey, how do you work best? And the number one thing I'd recommend, um, and you guys can actually DM me prioritize at unconventional organization on Instagram if you want a copy of this, because I like to give it away for free, is the prioritization filter. And you, if you're running a company or you're supporting somebody you're managing up will probably find that you have to do this prioritization filter for your boss. So it's a helpful one to learn.

Speaker B: Right. I love, I just love everything that you're saying. So when you're coaching the boss.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: I like who do you suggest they make sure are around them in order to support them so that they can do what they do best.

Speaker C: That's a great question. So I was working actually this morning with uh, somebody who has recently started working with me. And what we do is the first thing we'll do is we'll go into your business and we'll understand where your bottleneck is. Because every business that isn't growing and pretty much every business isn't growing like they want to, um, is, has a bottleneck. And so once we find that then we, we hit that point. And for a lot of people with adhd, the bottleneck is in the admin because the person who's running the company is not delegating enough. Or maybe they're delegating, but they're delegating and kind of throw it at you and kind of expect you to know what they want and they get mad and take it back. Like there's, there's not a lot of process there. And so the first thing that I often do with, with uh, business owner clients is I help them build the process in but make it ADHD friendly because if you talk to somebody who's going to drone on about, you know, like we need this document and we need this thing and that you're never going to do it. So let's not even pretend that's happening, you know, let's do it in A way that works for your brain.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. And you know, I would sell an ADHD CEO or whatever chief of staff you need to invest in, a COO or chief of staff, someone who is, you're into your Yang kind of thing, executive admin, whatever structure you need, but someone who you're giving the authority to manage you and manage your time and your priorities. Because, uh, that way you're not spending that energy in doing that, you're spending your energy on doing the work and the thought leadership.

Speaker C: M. I mean, that's great.

Speaker A: Also, you know, that's probably not their strength. Right. So by not focusing on that and trying to wrangle something that's not a strength, they can do what they do best and then have someone there to help with the communication. That's something that I have found challenging working for ADHD bosses is they will give me information and ask me to go take care of something, but then don't give me the nuanced information that

Speaker C: I need to be successful.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Stim, B, C and D is just, you got to figure it out.

Speaker A: So I learned, I learned to just continue to ask questions. Right. Keep on asking the questions until I have the information I need to be successful. And that, that took away, that took away some of the, the frustration because I knew, wait a minute, I have, I have more control here than I think.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: So it's good. Um, the challenge is, you know, as you're training people, make sure they know the importance of questions of a good needs assessment. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. Let me make sure we're aligned. Yes, let me make sure we're aligned.

Speaker A: And then also the follow up emails.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Just making sure that, hey, this is what we discussed and these were the deliverables.

Speaker C: Follow up emails yourself. If you're a boss, just give it to somebody else.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: But yeah, it's um, it is interesting. Like, I think it's really important. When we look at the research, we actually find that, you know, neurodiverse people, people with adhd, for example, they do communicate very well with each other and their neurotypicals do communicate really well with each other. And a lot of the problems come when you're trying to communicate neurotypical to neurodiverse. Like there's just something there. The brain is wired differently and so it doesn't click and it doesn't flow. And there's a lot more opportun for different people to get frustrated at different stages and different levels. And so, you know, when you're in a position to be having Those things. Again, coming back to that, taking away from the, the concept of adhd, but thinking about it, you know, just in general, it's super, super important for you to understand that if you're working with someone and they give you a task and you're like, okay, I need A, B, C and D, they don't necessarily know that. Like, that's just not possibly a part of it. Like, I mean, I've even had this. And, you know, I've had a wonderful relationship with my ea. I think, uh, the relationship with your EA is sacrosanct. When you have ADHD and you run a company and it's been a really interesting conversation. You know, it's been going in and going, okay, like, hey, this is the time that I need for this shift. This is the timeline. Or, hey, this is, this is a great thing, and it's good that we're going in this direction. But what about A, B and C that we were doing before? Is that now not a priority? Is that still a priority? And this is why I say, like, having a prioritization filter for your boss that you manage can be quite helpful because you can kind of come in and say, right, so now this is a red, which means these are oranges or all reds. Like, it kind of gives you the ability to manage it and it can turn you into a incredibly important asset for somebody without having a conversation about, this is adhd. This is how I work. Because everyone works differently. You're just, you've just been given the map. So congratulations. Yeah.

Speaker B: And it is, uh, for the person with adhd, it's about delegating, and for the person being delegated to, it's about clarifying and, and, and, and sometimes filling in the pieces a little bit. So what are some things that, that an individual contributor or someone managing up can do to help their boss without appearing to be a kiss up or patronizing? Because sometimes when you're working for someone and you're like, so did you mean this or did you mean that? Like, and I get I'm being, uh, total voice and dramatic, but, like, I want to make sure that they don't think I'm asking stupid questions. I want to make sure I'm not being annoying, and I don't want to be like, I know you have adhd, so did you think about this or, you know, something like that?

Speaker A: Condescending, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, condescending. Snow. Bueno.

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think the key is just to focus on trying to be really good at your job. So if somebody gives you a task and you're timelining and your project managing, kind of going in and say, hey, I took the information. We've done A, B and C, you know, and so these are the three directions that I'm thinking we should go in. And you know, this seems to be the one that seems to be the closest to the direction that we're talking about. Is this the case? So kind of doing a little bit of pre thinking. I think that's the important thing. ChatGPT is not unhelpful for this guys. We live in an interesting world where you can just go, I'm over here and boss wants me to be over here. What would you do? ChatGPT? Just to kind of like fill out some of that support. It works both ways. ChatGPT has actually been quite a helpful executive functioning support. It can also be a helpful ideation, original thinking support. So you can kind of get a little bit of the language. It's sort of a bit of a translator sometimes, um, because it can do both. So this is, you know, this is what I would recommend is like when somebody, when you're given a thing, ah. And you don't understand and you don't for whatever reason feel comfortable clarifying, maybe you feel like you've done it too many times or you just don't think it's going to go well. Take the information, try and fill in as many of the steps as you can. Ask ChatGPT to help you fill in the rest of the steps and then come forward and go. You know, usually when I'm working with CEOs, the concept is like, you want to empower people to come to you with three ideas and one suggestion. So if you come to them with three ideas and one suggestion, you know, you'd have to be pretty, you know, at that point. Like, come on, that's pretty good. You're pretty good.

Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. And, and, and I don't think you call it out. Like, you don't have to say, I'm coming to you because I think you're a hot mess express or I think you're disorganized. You're saying, I'm coming to you to make sure I'm doing a good job. Like I'm adding ownership, my work and my mission.

Speaker C: If they weren't a hot mess, you wouldn't be doing this. So this is amazing. I mean, this is the thing I always say to, you know, with what, uh, people sometimes get down on themselves. They're like, oh, I can't believe I made the mistake again. I'm like, hey, if you're adhd, if you didn't have adhd, I wouldn't be doing this job, and I love this job. So I don't, like, they're coming to me with this problem again.

Speaker B: Well, that's a really good point. It's like, I think the biggest thing that you can know is your own strengths and weaknesses and then know how to. Whether it's tools, whether it's support, whatever it is that you're hedging for that.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: One person that I know very well with ADHD sets alarms like it's going out of style to make sure they take their medicine or remember to go somewhere. Whatever. Whatever works. But sometimes you need to tell someone, I have a really important meeting. I've set an alarm, but can you make sure I get there? Great. Uh-huh. Do what you have to do.

Speaker A: I think everyone has to develop their own toolbox and then lean on what works for them, uh, and continue to strive to find the tools, even when it seems challenging. Right. That's the challenge. But one of the things that I want to speak about, because I think it's really important, is people with neurodiverse minds are brilliant.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: I mean, really, if we were to label people with neurodiverse minds, probably a really big chunk of CEOs, inventors.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: And so I have someone very close to me in my family who was diagnosed with adult ADHD last year or the year before, maybe 15 months ago. And it was devastating to her. And I saw that the focus was on all the things that were wrong. I was like, do me a favor. Please remember that there is a superpower here or multiple superpowers here. Like a lot of people are. A lot of times people are polymaths. Right. Do deep dives into. You know, are experts on more than one thing. So, you know, while you're navigating this terrain and trying to find your tools and developing your toolkit, could you please also ground yourself in the fact that you, um, know that there's something special here.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: I just think that. But if that person could stay focused on that as much as the stuff that isn't working.

Speaker B: Uh-huh.

Speaker A: There might be a different experience. Yes.

Speaker C: Yeah. No, a hundred percent. And I think that it's so important to remember. And, uh, it's just for me personally, I love doing this because I think that people with ADHD have very, very cool businesses and jobs, and they help and do interesting things. And it's honestly not that complicated. Once they learn the strategies to start seeing real shit from an ADHD perspective, I get that quick response, which is really fun. And. And a lot of this is just about mutually understanding each other's strengths and weaknesses and saying, like, hey, you have these strengths and I support those and you have these weaknesses and I support those and vice versa. So. Yeah, the best relationship between a boss and somebody is when they both understand that the other person is bringing strengths to the table and they both understand everyone else is supporting their weaknesses. That comb imagination is magical.

Speaker B: Yeah. And when you know that it's for good. I think you said earlier, like, we're gonna assume everyone's good and like, I'm not gonna assume that. Someone reminding me that we have a big meeting tomorrow and they haven't seen my prep yet or whatever. I'm not gonna say like, oh, you know, they're reminding me because I forgot. And therefore I, I need to get them what they need. It's not a put down, it's a working together to make the meeting.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: Or whatever. And I love, Kat, what you said about the superpower thing, because it, I mean, I see it all the time. Um, it's such a superpower. But I think for all of us, neurodiverse, or not knowing what we can handle and then making sure that we're not overwhelmed is the absolute key to success. Because I know with my family member, with adhd, when they're overwhelmed, they just shut down and disassociate. And like, in talking about what you can't take on more than you can handle because you excel when you've got what you can handle and you.

Speaker A: Huh.

Speaker B: Opposite of Excel when you have more than you can handle. So make sure that you're setting yourself up for success. And yes, sometimes that means you can't do something that you want to do, and that stinks. But like, in the course of life,

Speaker C: you'll get to do it.

Speaker B: It just might be in a few months or whatever.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker A: So, sky, we talked about the optimal situation, right. Where people understand their strengths and their weaknesses. How about some. Some strategies for. For people who are being managed by someone who does not, um, does not, you know, acknowledge their weaknesses.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Um, you know, whatever they are. How do you, you know, and you have to support them. So how. And their team. So how do you help them to be successful? How do you. How do you do that?

Speaker C: Yeah, that one is very difficult. Um, and I would say, you know, when you're doing that first of all, like, yeah, some people just are not very nice. That is, that is the way of it. You know, all kinds of different people. Sometimes they're just not very nice. If you find yourself in that position, it becomes more of a conversation of really getting, getting clear on their vision and presenting everything to them and as a way to bring their vision to life. So not necessarily coming. And obviously we're, we're assuming you're also looking for a better job at this point. Um, you know, but while you're doing that look, you're thinking about, okay, who is this person? Clear eyed, what do they want? What is it? You know, they are going for their own promotion or they are trying to reach X goal and they do not care. This is what they're doing, this is what they're going for. They have, they do not want to look silly or whatever it is and then bring your requirements and your support all directly in line with that. This is a way to make sure that we get this promotion. This is a way to make sure that we, you know, whatever it is, you might not say it explicitly. You might realize what their goals are and you might not, they might not be sharing that information with you. But once you understand it, if you can bring everything in line with that and make it very clear, that's the best chance you have of uh, getting the support and the sort uh, of connection that you need.

Speaker B: So what about the boss? That is the squirrel person? Like, oh wait, we're almost done with the project. What if we did it this way? That person.

Speaker C: That person.

Speaker B: Um, yeah. So managing up to the person who sees squirrels usually at the end of a project.

Speaker C: M. Yeah, yeah. Or when they're still on other projects. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: There's too much anyway.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think the first thing to do is just to acknowledge the squirrel. Like, you know, sometimes it can be very frustrating. So they're like, there is a squirrel there. You are correct. That is also a squirrel.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: You know, but so don't try and pretend because sometimes people will be like, the one time I saw a squirrel, it was holding gold. You know what I mean? Like, so now I'm really like committed to this idea. Sometimes that happens and sometimes that person is right. So it's hard to tell like M. But the key is to come in and say, yep, that's a scroll. That's correct. We have a dozen things that we need to do. This is what we've timelined for in order to do. To shift to this, we would have to lose this. Is that what you want? So very clearly making it a quid pro quo. So we're not going to make resources out of thin air. We have the resources, they have been allocated and we're going to have to reallocate them. Which would mean these consequences because especially with adhd, if you're working with an ADHD manager, sometimes they haven't thought of it like that. Or sometimes they have and they're like, yeah, of course we don't care about that stuff anymore. The ROI on that is terrible. And you're like, oh, okay, well in that case, yeah, sure, let's do this thing.

Speaker B: And you know, or it's. We can just add it. It's not that big a deal because they haven't thought through the actual steps.

Speaker C: Exactly, exactly.

Speaker B: Definitely seen that. Oh, it's easy, it's easy.

Speaker C: No, and that's when you go back

Speaker A: with, well, we can do this, but it's going to require this amount of resources as uh, that's, you know, and then push it back. That's something you want to do.

Speaker C: Exactly. But I would say give it a minute. Like don't necessarily come straight in with the, uh, well, we can't do that because blah, blah, blah, because that becomes like a. There's a squirrel. And then we can't do that. And it just kind of like creates more tension. If you go, I agree. There is this thing we could do that that is interesting. Why don't I look at the timelines and get back, you know, like give, give it a minute. Sometimes things will actually simmer down anyway. So that will give you an opportunity. You can come back and say, hey, looked at the timelines and then ABC or maybe there is bandwidth or whatever it is. So yeah, my recommendation to you would be say, don't just say no, we can't do it because then that can lead to a lot of resistance.

Speaker A: So you're saying yes and. As opposed to no.

Speaker C: Yes. And is always my answer to everything. I have a delegation strategy that involves yes, and I like that.

Speaker B: But I also think that the data like, oh, interesting. Let me look at what that would look like. This is what it would cost. This is the amount of time basically use the anti ADHD of this is all the timelines and all the things, the pieces in between the ideas and the actuality. Do we commit to this?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah. And if you want to go really far, like if you want to really nail this, my recommendation would be the same thing. Go, uh, look at the data, look at the Timelines come up with three suggestions, three ideas, and one suggestion.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: You know, we could do this. We could move this. We could try this. We could keep it as it is. I think we should do this. What do you think? Like, that kind of thing can lead to a space where you're becoming a person that is relied on for that stuff rather than a Debbie Downer. Oh, like always negative. Like, we haven't even heard the idea first. Like that kind of thing.

Speaker B: Yeah, that. Because that's the, uh, hole. Right. That you can step into is. Oh, you always say no, you never want to do it. You're not creative, you're not a risk taker, you're not entrepreneurial. It's like.

Speaker C: And that's not untrue. So you do have to kind of. This is the thing. You both have strengths and weaknesses, and you are in a better position when you're both acknowledging and supporting each other's strengths and each other's weaknesses.

Speaker B: Yes. Now what would you say? Because I have definitely worked with this person, ADHD person who loves a squirrel.

Speaker C: Whoever this person is, there's a lot of problems.

Speaker B: They love a squirrel and they're like, no, we can just do it. And they're the boss. Like, they're the CEO. So they're like, yes, we can. And they'll do it. And it'll kind of get done because the boss says, we're going to change this strategy, we're going to change this pricing, whatever it is, and. And the business is suffering for all of these, um, squirrels.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I will say, at the end of the day, you are not the boss. You are not the business owner. Like, that is on their responsibility. Um, that's generally when they come to me or somebody taps them on the shoulder and sends them to me. And I will talk about, we'll go through ROI and bottlenecks and delegation and systems like that. And that's what I love to do, is straighten out these systems. But, uh, when you've done that much work, like, eventually you do get to a point where you can't, you know, you're not in that role. You do have to understand. And it becomes a situation similar to the other one. Like, you may decide this isn't the right space for you because you don't want to be in a position where you're constantly. And this is. Comes after you've said, hey, I looked at the timeline. A, B, C, D, what? You know, this is what I think. I'm just, you know, I'm feeling like this is the high ROI output. This is the 20% that gets us 80%. Do we really want to put that one on the back burner? Uh, you know, that kind of thing. And if that keeps happening, especially if the business is suffering, which is ultimately the output of the manager or the CEO.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Then, then, yeah, that is, that is the. That is the outcome of not taking responsibility for managing your own ADHD as a business owner. And that is the thing that I personally support people to do.

Speaker B: Awesome. M. So they need to hire you. I think I have a referral.

Speaker A: I may have one as well.

Speaker B: Scenario time. Okay. Scenario time. I'm an individual contributor. My performance review isn't done and it's due tomorrow. And at my company, they do bonuses based on performance ratings and, oh, yeah, I want my bonus. I, uh, want my rating. Like, how do I. And if I, you know, it's been weeks. Hey, boss. I haven't seen that kind of thing, but it's go time. And I'm worried that I'm not going to get my bonus because of their not doing the administrative boring work that they don't want to do.

Speaker C: That's a great one. That's a great one. My first recommendation is, say, would you like me to give you a, uh, template? Would you like me to write a draft? Like, if you. If that's a possibility, I would highly, highly recommend it. Working memory, again, being what it is, executive functioning, it helps to give them something to edit, not something to do. Like, that would be my number one recommendation. If you can just kind of lay it out and they just go boom, boom, boom, you'll probably get the most, like, write the best.

Speaker B: Write the best month. I'll just give it to you, no problem. I got this.

Speaker C: You know, and if that isn't the case, if they have to go in and they have to log it out, then ask them if you can book it into their calendar, if that's something that you can do. Like, my recommendation for you would be book a meeting to do this. Uh, so like, book a meeting and be like, hey, I wanted to book this meeting so that we can talk about what I. And then kind of body double them to do it. Body doubling means you do it together. It's a very successful strategy with adhd. And just get them to do it in the meeting.

Speaker B: Yeah. And do you think it's okay to say, I'm concerned at this, you know, the thing is due in 12 hours. I'm concerned at this point that I'm not going to get my bonus. If this doesn't get done.

Speaker C: Yeah, I would definitely do that. I would definitely give the, you know, I would say like, look, this is due in 12 hours. You know, uh, if it doesn't get done, I, you know, give them a very hard line consequence. This is due in 12 hours. If it doesn't get done in 12 hours, I know that I won't get a bonus, which is really important to me. Can I book some time so that we can do it? Or would you like me to write you a draft and then just send that one off and then do we book a time to send the draft? I mean, if we're really talking ADHD strategies here, like, that would be my number one recommendation.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think you don't you choose your. I mean, something like, I'm not going to get my bonus. That's something to. All right, I've tried. I'm now going to micromanage you. Whereas other things you have to let go in a different way or let them have the consequences of missing the deadline, you have to pick and choose.

Speaker C: And you know, it's not even necessarily like, obviously it is micromanaging. It's a lot of work on your end. But in terms of what they might see is just someone being super helpful. So you don't necessarily have to come in as like, like haramf. I've had to do this for you. I mean, you might feel like that, but like from their perspective, they might just be like, man, Liz is so on the ball. Like, she made sure that I did this. This is great. Could she do this? For all of my reviews, I'm saying this because I've sat down with a lot of very, very, very high profile CEOs to do this. I have body doubled on the call when these kinds of things have had to be done because they're just very, very difficult, uh, executive functioning tasks.

Speaker B: Totally. No, I love that. And I think how you approach. Let me help versus guilt trip is massive with something like that.

Speaker C: Mhm. Because you might actually help and you might get a better thing as a result.

Speaker B: It's going to be amazing. What a flowering review. Never read anything like it. Awesome. Well, thank you, sky, so much. Um, please tell people where they can reach you, how they can get your amazing help with managing their ADHD and other challenges.

Speaker C: Yeah. So you can find me at Unconventional Organization. Um, you can also find me on Instagram at Unconventional Organization. With a Z. Sorry, with an S, not a Z. Um, and basically, you know, I have a podcast. There's a lot of free articles. But if you want to work with me, I do have a coaching program. So you need to apply and we'll see if you're a fit. We help help business owners grow and scale sustainably without the burnout. And if you want, if you are a CEO who is looking to, you know, grow past or, you know, or to that $1 million mark, then I do have a couple of one on ones. Um, and you can reach out to me and see for a fit.

Speaker A: Great.

Speaker B: Thank you, Sky. This has been so helpful both to us as well as to anybody listening. As is amazing and an actionable skill.

Speaker A: Yes, I feel like we could have talked to you forever on this. So maybe we'll do a part B at some point. But thank you so much, Sky. We really appreciate your time today.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's been great. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you. Have a great day. This is Real Job Talk, the podcast with practical advice for mid career professionals.

Speaker A: Our website with all Real Job Talk related information is realjobtalk.com we'd love to hear from you.

Speaker B: Please send us your questions, topics you'd like to talk about and Real Job Talk stories and you may find them, um, featured on a future episode. Use the website or email us@realjobtalkmail uh.com

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Speaker B: and on Facebook and Instagram eeljobtalkshow.

Speaker A: My name is Kathleen Nelson Troyer. You can find me on Twitter aileycat and on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: I'm Kathleen Nelson Troyer and I'm Liz Bronson. On Twitter I'm Lizbeconsult and on LinkedIn, I'm Liz Bronson.

Speaker A: Real Job Talk, um, is produced by John Mark Troyer. Our graphic artists are, uh, Lexi and Zachary Bronson. And thanks for joining us. Until next time,