Practical Product Management · 2024-10-30 · 34 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
38 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Navigating employee departures requires a fundamental mindset shift from viewing departures as personal betrayals to understanding them as natural career transitions. In this episode, Speakers A and B challenge the notion that employees owe loyalty beyond their time and labor, arguing that leaders should embrace a temporal relationship model where everyone expects people will eventually move on. The conversation centers on how leaders like Speaker A successfully anticipated Raul's departure and proactively helped him secure a new role through personal introductions, versus the defensive reaction from other executives who felt 'how dare he leave you.' Both speakers advocate for continuous, empathetic dialogue about career satisfaction, growth opportunities, and fit - not as retention tactics but as foundational management practice. They discuss performance calibration pitfalls, the toxicity of attacking core values in reviews rather than addressing situational behavior, and why counter-offers almost never work since the decision to leave involves weeks or months of deliberation. The episode is essential for product leaders, managers, and founders who struggle with team turnover, performance conversations, and building cultures where departures are handled with mutual respect rather than surprise or resentment.
Speaker A recognizes that once an employee has exhausted all growth opportunities on their team, keeping them becomes impossible; helping them find a role elsewhere maintains the relationship positively and often leads to future collaboration or rehiring, as demonstrated with Raul.
Good leaders who create healthy team spaces still view departures as natural transitions and offer support; bad leaders who fail to create that space see departures as a mirror of their poor leadership and react defensively, while employees who haven't had ongoing career conversations will resign suddenly without warning.
By the time an employee announces their departure, they've already spent weeks or months wrestling with the decision and envisioning their future elsewhere; suddenly offering opportunities that weren't available earlier feels too little, too late and doesn't address the underlying decision already made.
Reviews should focus on specific situational behaviors and actions rather than attacking core values or character; discussing how someone acted in a particular instance and coaching them on future responses is more constructive than telling them they lack respect or integrity.
Accepting that all working relationships are temporary - whether someone reports to you or vice versa - allows leaders to focus conversations on mutual growth and learning in that moment rather than expecting lifelong loyalty, which makes honest career dialogues possible.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode circles a single idea - don't take employee departures personally and treat people as whole humans - with lots of repetition and anecdote but few non-obvious operator takeaways. Most claims (loyalty is transactional, anticipate churn, have honest conversations) are familiar management platitudes.
It assumes they owe us something more than the time they. They give us
being able to anticipate churn, um, it actually makes you a better leader
The 'employees as a point in time / temporal relationship' framing and the 'don't try to save someone who's already decided' philosophy are moderately fresh takes, but much of it recycles standard 'people leave managers' and 'work isn't family' discourse.
I actually see every person that I work with as a point in time
once someone's decided to tell you, they're already gone
Both speakers appear to be experienced product/people leaders with tenure at scaled companies like Amazon and Google, which is relevant, but the transcript reveals no titles, scope, or scale of teams managed - it reads as two peers chatting rather than a vetted senior operator sharing hard-won expertise.
when I left Amazon, when the executive and senior leadership team found out
I had a coaching client this. A couple weeks last week
Almost entirely anecdotal with no metrics, dollar figures, timelines, or data. The few named companies (Amazon, Google) appear only in personal career stories, and everything else is abstract emotional framing.
I had an engineer, um. Hey, Raul
when Google came after me, I was like, yeah
The two hosts have genuine rapport and occasionally ask real follow-up questions ('what drives that sense of obligation?'), but it's a mutual-agreement conversation with no pushback, disagreement, or challenging - they largely reinforce each other's views.
what do you think drives that sense of. I don't want to go so far as to say, like, obligation
What's your philosophy around that?
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
In this episode, Leah and Marilyn dive into the nuanced world of product management through the lens of team dynamics, particularly focusing on transitions when employees move on. They discuss the challenges leaders face emotionally and strategically during these transitions, highlighting the need for open communication and empathy. The conversation explores how leaders can balance the transactional nature of employment with a supportive work culture, advocating for a holistic approach that sees employees as whole individuals. Leah and Marilyn share practical strategies for product leaders to enhance team resilience, understand the impacts of performance evaluations, and encourage career growth within and beyond the team. Key Takeaways Transitions as Growth Moments: Employee departures, while challenging, are opportunities for growth and evolution within the team and organization. Empathy-Driven Leadership: Empathetic leadership that sees employees as whole individuals fosters stronger team dynamics and open communication.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: It's practical product management where we talk about product management being practical instead of theoretical. There's, um, lots of great books on product management and how to do it. Right. Um, but quite frankly, product management happens in context. Right?
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Okay. So today we wanted to talk a little bit about, um, this is probably not just a product topic, but I think it, it does apply to product management. We want to talk a little bit about what happens in our minds and in our teams when people leave, um, when people decide it's time to move on to something else. Um, whether we leave them or they leave themselves. But more on the. They leave themselves side. I was. I think I haven't told you this story before, but I had an engineer, um. Hey, Raul. Uh, I had an engineer who, when he decided to leave the company, um, the person I was working for was offended. Like, how dare he leave you hanging? You've done so much for him. You've been so. You've been so helpful to him. And how dare he leave you hanging? And I was like, what? And, um, so we had this back and forth and I said, uh, he's done everything there is to do on my team. I can't keep him interested anymore. I don't have a big enough problem for him. And it made me think when that was happening. And now when I look back on, uh, makes me think that sometimes when someone decides to leave, we feel like they're breaking up with us instead of just going to do something else. What do you think?
Speaker B: I mean, so I, uh. I think I align with your point of your philosophy more than. More than perhaps the person that you knew in the past. I actually see every person that I work with as a point in time. Yeah, we will. We have this moment together. Whether, um, I'm reporting to you or you're reporting to me or we're peers, um, and it will not last. It's temporal. So how do, uh, how do we help each other grow in this moment? How do we help each other learn? And I. Most of the people, I mean, pretty much everybody that's ever worked for me, I will tell them this flat out, like, this is a moment in time. It's not going to be forever. My goal in my job is to help people grow on their career paths. So obviously, you know, you have to deliver on behalf of your company and your job. But my obligation is to do that and help people. I expect them to leave me.
Speaker A: Right, right. I mean, most of the companies, and I used to say this a lot, um, in the last couple Companies I worked for, most of the people who come to work for us are not coming to us to retire. They're young. They're coming to learn something. They're coming because they're interested. They're chat. It's a challenge. They like, they talk to, they like the product, but they're not coming here to retire. And, and when we, when we treat them as though they are, um, then we will be offended when they decide to retire early.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Like, instead of sticking with us through whatever. Right. Um, what do you think about, like, so we spend a lot of time as leaders trying to figure out, like, how to reduce churn when we have a high churn rate on our team, or how to create the right culture that people will want to invest in and stay. But at the same time, to your point, it's temporal and people will leave. So how do you balance that? How do you think about that?
Speaker B: Well, I mean, how cool is it to be able to have that conversation with someone?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Like, we both know, we both know this is not forever. Um, so can we just have an open conversation about what's working for you, what's not working for you? Um, just working for your family. Um, you know, what can I do? And then I can have realistic conversations about. Yeah. Like that I understand your career path. And to be clear, I'm not going to have that this year. Yeah, I might have it next year. But, uh, here are the things I do have and here are some of the ways I think they could help and. Or not. But if you're ready to go and you're ready to take that next leap, how can I help you also take that next leap? And I just, uh. I mean, honestly, Leah, I think I've seen. I've seen people come back to me over time because they trusted me to be honest and open with them.
Speaker A: I don't.
Speaker B: Being able to anticipate churn, um, it actually makes you a better leader. It makes you more able to manage your capacity and understand where people's heads are at. And yeah, I actually, actually think the notion that someone owes us, um, yeah, they owe me their loyalty or they owe me.
Speaker A: How dare that person leave you. What?
Speaker B: Very offensive. It assumes that, like, it assumes they owe us something more than the time they. They give us. Yes. In exchange for the m. The money that the company gives them. Like, this is a. This is a transactional relationship, my friends.
Speaker A: Yeah, well, and what comes to my mind is that, I mean, you know, and I know that you're the same way. I Care about building a culture for my team that has empathy, that has concern, that they get to bring their whole self, they get to have fun, they get to work hard and run fast if that's what they want to do. Right. Like, I. I care about building that environment, and I think that this conversation about what do you want and where do you want to be and when will you be ready to go try, that happens better in that environment.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: If I have a harsh environment where I am just riding you, you know, like a pony to get what I want, you, uh, are gonna leave me and I will be surprised, right? Or I won't be. Right. Like, you're just gonna show up one day and be like, hey, by the way, I'm quitting. And you're like, whoa, what? Whereas I am, uh, in the teams that I've led over the years, I have very rarely been surprised when someone has come to me and said, hey, I've got an offer somewhere else. And it usually sounds like that, hey, I need to tell you something. Right? And you're like, oh, okay. But at the same time, I'm like, yeah, I thought that. I thought that was going to happen this year. Yeah, right. That happens for me in the context of that high empathy, highly engaged, high touch kind of environment more. Because we've built a relationship where you'll tell me. Yeah, right.
Speaker B: Yes. And I think that, uh, like, to take it even a step further, I think some of my favorite conversations have been where I've been able to connect someone inside my network or say, you know, let's. You know, let's talk about the role you're going to go after next. And how do we sort of talk about the work you've done in a way that helps you get that new experience? Um, or even, like, you know, tell me about the new role. What, like, what are you excited about it? How does it help you grow? And. And, uh, you know, I just. I. I always want to end a relationship in a way that I. Like, I'm excited about the person's future.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: No, and that's what's so funny about this particular story. I told you, um, when Raul came to me, I kind of saw it coming, Right. I, like, I said he had done every. I'd given him anything. He said, hey, can I try this? I'd be like, yes, yes, yes. I was trying to keep him engaged, anywhere he'd go, because he was great fun for the culture of the team through the pandemic, all of that. But when he came to me and said, listen, I. I think I need to find something else. I was like, what do you want to do? And he was like, what? And I was like, what do you want to do? Uh, let me help you find a job. I was like, I don't want. I want you here, but I also understand that I don't have anything for you, so what do you. And he was like, oh, I want to do this. And so the job he has today was a direct, like, introduction from me. Oh. Uh, I gave him, like, two introductions in a space that he was looking for. And I was like, see if either of these fit. I'm happy to tell them how great you are. Right. And. And that was offensive to the leader who told me, how. How dare he leave you? Right. That was offensive that I was like, yeah, I helped him find this, the role he's going to. Because he's great, and I know some great people who could use a great guy.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Right. And I don't have anything I can't keep. I can't engage his brain the way I need to. Like, he had done all the things right. Um, and like I said, but if I was doing something later on that he was interested in, he would come work for me again, and I would take him again.
Speaker B: Right, right.
Speaker A: So, you know, I think, you know, or I'd work with them or whatever. Like, I. 100%. I also think that there's something to be said for. Even when someone isn't a fit for my team, when I know that they aren't going to make it, like, it's a bad fit, it's not working out, you're. This is not the right place for you. I've had plenty of conversations even then that have been like, this isn't working, and I. I want to help you find something that will work. What do you want?
Speaker B: Yeah, I think, uh, like, listen, I. I do believe we. We should treat people with empathy and kindness. And usually when it's not working, everybody knows it's not. It's not a surprise. So when you finally sit down and say this, the. How does this feel to you? Because to me, this doesn't feel like it's working very well. And I feel like it just hurts everybody. Right. Um, it's usually such a relief just to talk about it.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: That it really unlocks, uh. It unlocks a whole conversation about how do we. How do we. What needs to be true in order for everybody to feel like this is going to work, Whether it's separating or like, whatever.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, and I think, I mean, that's. I, you know, uh, I will. I can be honest that I haven't always handled it perfectly. I haven't always done it beautifully. But the times when I have felt the best about letting someone go, it's been when I've been able to sit down with them and say exactly what you just said. This isn't. This doesn't feel right. Are you, Are you happy? Like, we know what's happening here. And what's fascinating is that most of the time, those people then opt out, right? Because they're like, yeah, I, I, yeah, you're right. Let me. I need to find something else. And you can have a really nice, uh, parting instead of this, like, and you're fired. Right. Like, so, you know, and especially in environments like Europe m. Where you, you often can't just fire somebody, right. You've got to either pay them to go away or whatever. But even that conversation of, like, this isn't working for me. So we're have to have a very different conversation.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: A lot of people will be like, yeah, okay, that's true. Let's figure this out. Like, you know, yeah, you're right. I don't. I also don't want to stay somewhere that it doesn't fit. So what do we do?
Speaker B: Wants to stay in a job, think hurts them. Um, or they feel like they suck. Right. The few times that I found myself somewhere where it really didn't fit. Yeah, I knew it. I also hated it.
Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. You're, like, grateful that the other person, when you tell them is like, yes, thanks. Great. Like,
Speaker B: like, we all knew this was bad. You were just trying to be nice to me. Like, don't, don't, don't be nice. Be straight. Not. Yeah. Or like you said.
Speaker A: Or like we said before, sometimes I've said, you know, I've decided to do something else. And the person is like, everyone else is like, did they try to get you to stay? And I'm like, no. Because we both knew. Yeah, like a, a, I don't threaten. I never threaten. If I'm leaving, I'm leaving. Right? Like, it's never a threat. I don't do. I've never done that. Right. If I tell you I'm out walking out the door, you better trust my words, right? Because I'm walking out the door. And when I start saying it, it's usually six months to a year before I'm like, I'm thinking, I might want to do something like this. And I'm giving you a hint of find me something like that, or I'm going somewhere else so that when I finally say, hey, I've decided to leave, the other person's like, yeah, you know? Yeah. And I want that same. When it's me, I want that same. Because to your point, when it no longer fits, it no longer fits. It doesn't have to even be terrible. It just doesn't fit anymore.
Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's not a damnation of the culture or the company or the person. It just like these are. You spend more time at work.
Speaker A: Work.
Speaker B: Yeah. Then you do at home. And it shouldn't hurt. I have a question for you. Um, I have two questions for you.
Speaker A: Um, I'm ready.
Speaker B: Okay. The first is like, what do you think drives that sense of. I. I don't want to. I don't want to go so far as to say, like, obligation or ownership or like something's driving people to be offended when someone leaves.
Speaker A: Well, I think. I do think in the sort of founder space or at the executive level, um, certainly the founder space. Um, sorry, Founders, they often feel very precious about their. Their company and therefore believe that we should all feel very precious about working at their company and forget that what we're doing is a damn job. Like, I don't own the company. I'm not going to make as much when you sell it or IPO as you are. I. I'm just here to do a damn job. Right? And I might love that damn job, but it's just a job, and I can go love a job somewhere else. Right? And I. So I think sometimes, like, founders, executives can get a little precious. Um, I also think that for executives and leaders, people who have been, are in, are in it. When you're working hard at something, it can feel like, uh, an accusation for someone else to say, I don't want to do this anymore. Often if we're hurting and are struggling and someone else is like, yeah, I'm not. I'm opting out. I don't want to do this anymore. Then we're like, how dare you? How dare you leave me here?
Speaker B: How dare you?
Speaker A: Yeah, I'm hurting. Why do you get out? Right? So I think that that can happen. And then I think we. I think there are good leaders. So I think there's a few of these things, right? I think there are good leaders who really try to craft, uh, space for their teams. And when someone doesn't want to be in that anymore, they. It feels personal. Instead of like, you and I saying Like, I craft that space so that you have a healthy space, not so that you live there for the rest of your life. That's a different model. And then I think there are bad leaders who don't craft that kind of space. And so when someone's like, I'm out, I'm done, then it. It's a mirror m of like, I've, uh, built a shitty space and they don't want to be here anymore. It depends on why the person's leaving. Right. To some degree. So I think there's a series of things that can happen that cause people to feel offended. Right?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Does that resonate?
Speaker B: I wholly agree. Um, I wholly agree. I think that more. The more space you have for these conversations, the more space you hold for these conversations, the more space you hold for seeing someone else as a fully formed human, the less offended you get because you realize it's not. That's not a damnation unless you've, like, truly built an awful culture and then maybe.
Speaker A: Right, right, right. But don't you also think that that's part of what I think sometimes when we're doing performance evaluations or reviews or calibration, we can lose sight of that there's a fully formed human in that spot that we're talking about. And so when I'm. When I'm calibrating humans against one another and with one another, I'm also thinking about, listen, I need to have some honest discussions with these different people. And there needs to be space for that honest discussion. And we need to talk about if it's working or not working and what we need. It's not. I'm going to punish so and so.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Or I'm. I'm going to show that guy, like, if you're doing that, quit. Quit your job.
Speaker B: Yeah, I am.
Speaker A: If, uh, you're celebrating from a place of meanness, get the hell out of your job.
Speaker B: Well, and I. Calibration. Calibration is about how the person is performing at the tasks you've laid out for them compared to relative tasks of other people at the same level. I think that. So I will. I will tell you, um, I think people do calibration really wrongly. Um, I mean, I have personally had someone question my, um, quality, integrity, and respect in a review.
Speaker A: Wow.
Speaker B: I had. I had a. I had a difficult meeting with some peers once, um, and it came through, uh, in a quarterly review that I didn't have any respect. Um, and I actually feel like, um, I actually feel like that's a. That, that is a A toxic byproduct of a review process. Because you're not talking about, you're not talking about my actions in an instant that were, were seen and received by others in a particular way and giving me coaching on how to, um, act and react in a situation with those humans. You're telling me I have no respect.
Speaker A: Well, it's an attack on your core values instead of a statement about a situation where you behaved in a way.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And if they think you have a core value problem, that's a, that's a very different conversation than let's talk about your review.
Speaker B: Yeah, that's actually, it's a. Yeah, it was. I, uh, found it very offensive. So I, I think it's interesting. I think it's very interesting. The, the calibration process and people management process. And, and I, I think that, you know, it's not really, uh, a company value anymore to, to look at the whole person. Right. I, I, you know, I know like years and years ago, I mean, even my father didn't, like, stay with a, with a company his whole life. Um, he was a teacher. But it's not like you stay with one company your whole life and you get a pension. They don't actually care about the humans to a large degree. Again, I call it a transactional relationship, but I think it's a transactional relationship. Um, you said something, Leah, about, um, you know, like, like, you know, when, when you, when you resign or when someone else resigns. When someone resigns, you know, did you try to sa. Um, I would love to talk about that in particular, because my personal philosophy is once someone's decided to tell you, they're already gone.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I don't ever try to save people because the decision really has been made. And you can stave this off for a period of time, but they're gone. They've already chosen something else. What's your philosophy around that?
Speaker A: No, I agree. Because if they come to me and say I'm leaving, I have this other job offer, I'm gonna go, and they are expecting me to save them. That's a conversation they should have had with me about how they were feeling before we got to this day. Same for me. If I show up and tell, am I fight if, uh, I can't think of a time when I've ever done this, but I'm trying to think if that's true. I can't think of a time that I've ever resigned hoping that someone would make me a counter. I was just hoping we could get out of this nice and clean and not hurt each other's feelings. When I resigned. Right. That's what I was always hoping for. Like, how do we get out of this? Um, and I. But. But you're the. The person has already been by the time I get to that decision. So if it's me, if I just use myself by the time I get to that decision, I have been wrestling with that for weeks, months, maybe a year. Right. Going back and forth, thinking about why I'll look, then talking to people that I'm excited to talk to and starting to feel a sense of, oh, it could be different over there and I might do that, get to do this and that you now can't offer me that hope and that excitement. And unless there's magic somewhere that you haven't told me. And why are you offering me the magic now?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Right. I mean, I. When. I mean, I have. When I left Amazon, when the executive and senior leadership team found out, suddenly all the jobs in the world fell out of the sky. And, um, do you want this one? Do you want this one? Do you want this one to you? And I was like, no, because I wanted those jobs six months ago and you wouldn't give them to me. Right. And so I was like, no. And I'm not. Not bagging on Amazon. It was just like an, um. And God loved them for wanting me to stay. Right. But at the same time, jobs fell from the heavens that weren't my job. And so it felt like too little, too late.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: On both sides. Right. I didn't approach those couple of people and they didn't approach me. And so it was too little, too late. Um, and so I 100% agree with you.
Speaker B: That example right there is why being able to have a dialogue with the people that choose to work for you. Hold on. They choose to work for you. So being able to have a dialogue about, is this fulfilling? Is it stressful? What are you thinking? And then especially for the people that you do want to stay in the company because they add value, maybe they don't stay working for you. How are you constantly looking for what's next? What's different? So I think we talk a lot about, like, you know, how do we performance manage people or how do, uh, you know, how do we help people that are struggling or people that need coaching? Everybody needs to be considered as a whole person.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And you need to be investing in the people that you want to stay because, you know, being static or stagnant, um, not very many people. Not Very many people come in just being like, I'm gonna move this paper from here to here. I'm going to be satisfied with that. Uh, now, having said that, I have had, I've had people in my groups that that's all they want. They don't want more. They're dealing with a lot of pressures outside of work. They're good at their job.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, and I also think it's really unfair to pressure them up or out. Like, they're great.
Speaker A: Totally. If they do good work in the spot they're in and you need that work done and they're happy and you're happy. Right. Like, off we go. Right.
Speaker B: But you'll never know unless you have the conversation.
Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's, um. I think you're absolutely right about the whole person. Like, we forget. So sometimes I think in general, in businesses, we infantilize our teams.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: They become children. P.S. it's not a family. It's never been a family. It's never going to be a family.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Um, you can be friends, you can love working together. You can be great colleagues. Right. But this isn't your family and those are not your children.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: They are your employees. They are there to do a job. They are on a team. Right. And when we infantilize people, we won't have conversations with them. Like grown ups. Yeah, you're grown ass people. I am a grown ass person. You are a grown ass person. We're gonna have a grown ass adult conversation. Right. And that's when things are hard and when things are great. And so for me, I really think about the people I lead as managing the whole person, which means that when they are struggling, I say, what's going on? What's that? This is not this. What's happening here is not what I'm used to. So what's happening? Right. I only notice that because I'm managing the whole person, not their tasks. It's, uh, also the reason why, like we were saying, like when someone says like, I really want to do something else, I'm like, let's find you something else. Look, who do you want to talk to? Right. Like, I'll find you something else. Right. And I think I, I agree with you 100. I think we, we forget that we're managing whole people and that they are grown ups and we need to treat them as such and also remind ourselves that we are not their parent, their sibling, their, you know, whatever, their partner. This is a, to your point, it is A transactional relationship that when we build cultures and have and are an empathetic leader, we wrap some care and concern and a bubble of empathy and compassion around. Right. It is still a transaction. You do the thing, I give you a paycheck. Yeah, right.
Speaker B: It's funny. Um, so. And I also think this works when you're talking about how do you manage your manager? How do you. How do you start to create that relationship with your manager? I'm gonna tell a story. Um. Uh, so I was working for a gentleman, um, who I'd worked with for a long time before, and who knew who I was. Right. Knew. Knew how I acted, knew how I reacted, uh, wanted to push me into different spaces. And he was leaving the company, and I was to work for a gentleman who I had no relationship with. And every interaction I'd had with this guy, he was tough, and he was like. I was like, oh, my God, this guy is mean. And he had people that had worked with him for years. Like, I was going to be the new kid in this group. Like, I was nervous. Um, and I sent him an email. And, uh, and he worked in a different location. Like, he sat with his team in a completely different city. I was the only one, like, all the way in New York City. I sent him an email, and I just said, hey, um, I don't know you. You don't know me, but I'm just gonna overshare a little bit because I'm an oversharer. Um, and I just said, you know, I, like, this is who I am. Ah. This is what. These are some of the things that I do. I'm really excited to be part of this team. I'm a little nervous about how to communicate with you, but here's how I'm going to start out. Um, and he and I had the best relationship. That one moment of me just being super vulnerable allowed him to open up in a way. And he has become, uh, I don't work with him anymore. He's off doing something else. But he was one of my very favorite leaders because we just had this moment of, like, humanity, and it allowed us to sort of, like, you know, he didn't have to guess what I was thinking because we. We'd broken down the barriers. And I think it's hard when, you know, when you work for someone and they don't want to get to know the whole person. They just want you. They just want you to fit into their mold. Yeah, they don't actually tell you what the mold is. And so you Kind of got a. Exactly.
Speaker A: That story exemplifies to me two things that can happen. Like. Like, we do need to be willing to say, I need you to understand who I am. And that's what you did. Like, you took a risk in that moment of saying, I will be vulnerable and tell you who I am. Right. And then that person returned. They can return one way or the other. Yeah, I hear you. That's great. Like, I don't. I don't really care.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Like, it's under. Under. That is the message, I don't care. Just get your work done and we'll be fine. Or they could do that other thing and you could actually build a relationship that is far reaching. That. That risk requires the vulnerability.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Otherwise you could have just gone in cold, done the job, not taken the risk, and it probably would have turned out very differently.
Speaker B: Yeah. 100 it would have.
Speaker A: And so that's. I think that's so, so important. Yeah. So important. It's funny, it reminds me of when I was. I was working for a guy that I loved working for in, um, Denver. I love. I mean, his name's Russ. I love him. He's one of those people that I will say, like, should I do this or this even now? And he's like, uh, you know what to do. Why are you asking me? Right. I'm not your mentor. I'm your friend. Stop asking. I'm like, but you are my mentor. You just don't know it. Um, but I was working for Russia. I had talked to you on the phone, and I was supposed to fly to Seattle and do an interview with Amazon. And so I needed some time off. And so I went to Russ and said, hey, I need a couple days off. I gotta go out of town. And he was like, where are you going? And I was like, oh. And I said, I'm going to Seattle. And he's like, why? As, uh, he just something he said in the. In hindsight, he said, I just knew. I knew something was up. He's like, you were acting weird. Something was up. Then you asked me for some days off and I said, told him where I was going, which I probably didn't have to. Right. I could have just been like, I'm going. I could have lied. I could have said anything.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: But I didn't. I said, I'm going to Seattle. And he said, why? And I said, job interview with. With Amazon. And he's like, okay. And I was like, are you mad? And he's like, no, crush it. Oh, uh, he's like, go crush it. He's like, if it's what you want, when you come back, we'll figure it out. He's like, if you go and it's not what you want, we'll figure it out. He's like, and while you're gone, I'll think about if I have anything I can do that that I think would change your mind. He's like, and then we'll talk about it. And I was like, thanks, Russ.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Like, we pull it together, but it was, like, freedom to go be good at it and see if it's what I wanted.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And we had cultivated that relationship over the course of that whole. That whole job while I worked for him. So. So that I went with him with his hand at my back, supporting me, instead of, in my mind, being afraid. Oh, God, I'm gonna have to tell Russ that I might wanna go work at Amazon.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Right. And so, I mean, when I walked back and he didn't tell anybody else, like. And when I walked back in, he was like, how'd you do? And I was like, I think. I think I did okay. And, you know, blah, blah, blah. And he was like, okay, well, what. He's like, let's. We can talk about it when you're ready, you know? But I just remember feeling really seen.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Like, it was. You know, because he asked me. I think he asked me. I remember he said, like, what's. What's interesting about it for you? And I said, I just want to know if I can do this at that scale. And he was like, that's fair. That's a good reason.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: You know, he's like, if you had told me it was just the money. Okay, I can probably find you some more money. You know? He's like, but that's not. He's like, that. I can. I could maybe try. He's like, I probably can't get what they do, what they're doing, but I can get closer, but I want to know why. And I was like, because I. I want to prove to myself I can do that.
Speaker B: So I love. I love that story for two reasons. Uh, I think it really exemplifies because you're still talking fondly about him.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Probably still go work with him. You would pick up a phone call for him, and that just shows, like, we don't have to be so impersonal as leaders. And the second thing is when you said the reason you went to Amazon is because you wanted to see if you could do what you do at that scale. That is the whole reason I applied there in the first place, too. I just wanted to see if I could be good enough. Um, and it was scary and exciting. Like, that was the, Ah, you know.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Oh, my God. Can I do that? I kind of want to try to do that.
Speaker A: Yeah. I was. I had a coaching client this. A couple weeks last week or the week before. Ask me, like, is it a good enough reason to want to go somewhere, like, Google? Because I just want to know if I can. And I'm all, that's why I did it. And he was like, what? And I was like, I mean, I said, I. You know, I continued the process. I went to Amazon for that reason. And when Google came after me, I was like, yeah, all right, I'll go through this interview process. I just wanted to know I could get hired. Like, I didn't even know if I wanted the job, but I was like, I mean, can I get. Can I get Google to act, to beg me to come?
Speaker B: Right?
Speaker A: I was like, yes. Yes, I can. Right.
Speaker B: Can you climb the next peak? And, like, I. I get why people climb mountains. I'm not gonna climb a mountain, but, yeah.
Speaker A: Yeah. Because I want to know if I can. Right? So, yeah, I. I totally think that's reasonable. Yeah. And so I think what I, uh, think where we've landed is you don't get to. You don't get to be personally offended when someone says, ah, they want to go do something else. What you get to be is a leader, even in that moment.
Speaker B: Yeah. Yes.
Speaker A: Congratulations. You get to lead people even in the moment that they say they want to leave.
Speaker B: And it should be a good thing.
Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Like, uh, I said, I. I want the Rowels of the world to say, yeah. And then I told her I wanted to leave, and she helped me find a job. Right. Instead of. And I loved working for her, and I was gonna miss her. Right. But xyz. Right.
Speaker B: But I wanted to go see if I could do this other thing over here.
Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. 100. So, um, so I guess our advice is if you're thinking. If you're starting to think, like, hey, I might want to do something, something new, think about the risk it will be to talk to your leader about that. Really think through. Like, what would I be risking? What could happen? Right. And be willing to start having some conversation if it feels like, you know, if you have that kind of relationship and if you are a leader and you're looking at your team, start having those really big conversations. Right.
Speaker B: Why would you not, right? Why would you not go be a whole leader? Yes.
Speaker A: That is. That is our. Our advice to you. We send you out into the world to go be a whole leader of all. Of a whole human. A whole human leader of a whole human person. Awesome. All right, Marilyn, this was fun, as always.
Speaker B: Thanks, Le.
Speaker A: Sam.
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