Losing the Job, Keeping the Purpose

Speaker A: I remember getting the text, I actually giggled. I went, oh, I just got it right off and I went back to sleep. I really did.

Speaker B: This is Tell Me Something Good About Retail with Bob Phibs, the retail doctor. The champion for a more human connection in retail for over 30 years. As a retail doctor, Bob is the authority on brick and mortar retail across the world who works with some of the biggest luxury brands to independent retailers of all sizes.

Speaker C: Eight years ago, Brian Travilla was deep in the trenches of retail. He was leading teams, coaching managers and shaping culture at scale. Uh, a lot has changed from then. He went from big box retail to building a team inside Amazon, to watching that team get cut, to starting over on his own. Now through off script, he's helping leaders rethink what actually drives performance beyond titles, systems and corporate playbooks. And if you've ever led a team, lost a team or questioned the system you're in, this conversation is for you. Welcome Brian.

Speaker A: Oh, thank you Bob. Delighted to be here again. I can't believe it's been eight years.

Speaker C: I know. You are my third guest on tell me something good about Retail and I did that I think on a little app and now we have fancy studios and everything. So um, my first question to you is what version of Brian from eight years ago wouldn't survive today?

Speaker A: Uh, the one that uh, would just simply follow direction, planograms without any questioning, trying to seek to understand, just go out and execute that guy. Wouldn't survive.

Speaker C: Okay, okay, well we're going to get into Amazon and what that exposed about leadership now. Um, you know, a little backstory for those of you who have, have uh, know a little bit about the retail doc. I put myself through college selling shoes and I would commute from Orange county and uh, south of Los Angeles up to Glendale and I managed a shoe store for those two years. And one day the district manager came and he said, uh, we uh, I think you're not living at potential. We're going to replace you, the new manager. And I said, well, don't have to say in it. He goes, no, he's waiting at the store right now. And I met this guy and I instantly knew like there is no path back for me. And I didn't choose to leave. That decision was made for you. So have you ever had a moment when the decision was made for you and you just had to live, live it? Uh, or was that only when Amazon probably gave you that feeling?

Speaker A: Well, I've actually been through it twice, Bob. I worked for a chiropractic company back in 2015, 2016, and they sold their corporate business to franchisees and my role as a corporate district leader was gone in one day. No severance, just see you later, alligator. And uh, so that was my first experience. That was 10 years ago. And then obviously I just went through it much, uh, more professionally though with Amazon. On January 26, a 4:51am text message saying adios.

Speaker C: Oh my goodness. Well, let's get into the Amazon chapter. So, uh, I mean, you know, I encourage you all to go back to um, my podcast. I think it's number 103 and you can hear more. Brian, it is Montgomery Ward days. I think you were cleaning out washing machines. What were you doing there? What was that?

Speaker A: Well, Ward's gosh, uh, I was, you know, department. It was my teeth cutting. I was a department manager and worked my way through that from Florida. They brought me to Chicago where the corporate office was and worked at a bunch of stores around Chicago helping remodel them just to sell to ge, just to go bankrupt. So that was, uh, I left right before though I saw the kind of canary.

Speaker C: Yes, I think that's good. So I'm going to ask you to walk me through. You know, uh, you were at Petco and you left them. And I know you were, you were toying with doing off script, I think, uh, in some version of it. But this job from the person or the corporation that you were up competing against the most was Petco. So just walk me through the building of, you know, you left, uh, what Petco were you doing there and then you know, what you, when you started Amazon, what did you do differently?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, at Petco we were focused on trying to sell everything online in stores. And it just didn't make sense, you know, because traditional retailers, it was all, you know, uh, you know, buy online, pickup in store or buy it online. And all the stores became little like hub and spoke distribution centers. And I, uh, had a great time at Petco, worked with some amazing folks. But my time there was done. I built a, an engagement program for the whole company because dog food and cat food was getting over a hundred dollars a bag. And when you have an hourly employee, let's just say making 10 to $15 an hour, that's a full day's work just to buy one bag of food. So we wanted an op, uh, we wanted to create a program where it was all about relationship based selling. We didn't necessarily sell to the price, we sold to the ethos of what was good for the pet is good for the pet parent and then we'd figure out their budget and get them the right, uh, food for their pets. Uh, built that program, had a ton of fun. Built a big, built a team. But like in California, I was traveling to San Diego every week for two years and that just came to a, a grinding halt after two long years. And um, I, I was, everything was online. This is the beginning of the pandemic in 2020. Everything's going online. And Bob, you and I share that zeal and zest for basic traditional retail where, you know, we grew up in stores helping customers make buying decisions. Um, but I went over to Amazon as a business coach, manager and uh, basically my, uh, my team and I were responsible for help standing up the small business owners. They're called delivery service partners. These are the folks that employ the, the Amazon driver. So if you see an Amazon van, they don't work for Amazon. They work for a small amount of pop company. And uh, my team, we were in a hyper scale, uh, then so I joined at a, at a breaknet speed and was part of the leadership team that built the most successful logistics network known to man right now. I mean Amazon kind of owns it all and did that for about six years. Had a couple different roles there, led North American training for our delivery service partners and uh, our business coaches. And uh, I did over 400 interviews, you name it. Um, it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. Uh, but you know, sadly that came to an end in January of 26 where they, they laid me off.

Speaker C: Well, when did you realize that what you built might not last? Because there had to be signs, I

Speaker A: would think, as far as my Amazon days. Yeah, no, I mean, uh, you know, the Amazon was really leaning into AI. I mean everything is AI at Amazon. And so when you're a senior leader, you know, I, I, you know, I didn't have like from a performance standpoint, we were doing great. Um, I just, I knew in my heart I was shifting away from corporate America after 30 years. Uh, and as you said, I've wanted to have my own leadership company for a long time. And uh, you know what, it was a surprise to, to be laid off, no doubt about it. But it was really my mental paradigm shift that helped me go from, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? Because I did that in 2016 to like, wow, okay, I'm going to get a little bit of a severance.

Speaker C: Cool.

Speaker A: This is going to be seed money to my company. I'm going to go make this work. And figure it out day by day. And that's where I'm at.

Speaker C: So I think I followed you. Well, I followed you for a long time, but I think I, I would swear in January you were like assembling the teams, having to fire them if I'm not. It didn't. Isn't that what I saw on LinkedIn, like, and you're like, having to have meetings and, and say they built. I mean, what did that feel like?

Speaker A: Yeah, I. Thank goodness I wasn't the person, uh, that had to make decisions on laying people off. And I, I'm so glad for that. You know, obviously I've had to work through several, uh, hiring and terminations in my time, but, um, I saw at a broader scale back in October of 25 when they had their first round of layoffs, just some amazing people that were doing amazing work are all of a sudden gone. And um, you know, those, those waves continued and it was really tough because when you're on a team that's so cross functional, especially like logistics and really key figures are gone one day because once you're laid off, you're, I mean, you are turned off that day. Um, it was tough. And then come, uh, January, we had the round that I was affected by, which was about 58,000 people total. In the last six months, about 88,000 folks have lost their jobs.

Speaker C: So what did you say to your team when that all was going down?

Speaker A: I mean, you know, Bob, uh, that was the toughest part because back in October, as their leader, I had to be pragmatic and honest. Hey, I don't know what's coming down the pipeline, but you know what? We're, we're doing our very best work. We're going to focus on our goals, we're going to focus on our responsibilities and see it through. And then here's the toughest part is, uh, in January when it happened, I didn't get a chance to say goodbye to my team. It was just, you know, a, ah, text message to all of them. And, um, that was the hardest part of leading Amazon, is leading my team, number one.

Speaker C: Well, what does that teach you about job security and the right and wrong way to do things? Is this the new model? Is this, you know, Radio Shack, if I'm not mistaken? Didn't they fire people by an email they sent during a meeting? And you're just like, I mean, what you do just say like, how mean can we be? How, how impersonal can we do this?

Speaker A: I, uh, mean, here's, here's What I've learned because I, I, I do believe it's more the norm. And again, the only thing I could control through all of this is my, my attitude. That's the only thing I possibly had my pinky around. Because, you know, you're losing your job, you're losing your benefits, you're losing all this autonomy and this stability in your life. And so attitude is it. And I think if, if, if you were to ask, is there any security in jobs today? No, there is not. And I don't think that, I think it would be short sighted to say that. But that doesn't mean we're going to go to work every day and fret over our jobs. Um, you know, for me it was the right move and I knew it in my heart. And I remember getting the text, I actually giggled. I went, oh, I just got laid off and I went back to sleep. I really did.

Speaker C: Oh my goodness.

Speaker A: You know, and, and then obviously I had to have the uncomfortable meetings later on the day with, you know, separation and stuff like that. But you know what? Just a smile and a positive attitude. And I'm not saying it's all roses because bullish me. I'm in the process of finding healthcare and if I can tell you, Bob, that is the craziest experience of my life is to try to find healthcare in America. That is like logical even say so. Um, there's a lot of a, uh, lot of dark turns and corners. But I like who controls my attitude.

Speaker C: I would agree with that. I, uh, the last job I ever had, I was working at It's a Grind Coffee. And the owner had called me into his office. I was working, I was doing marketing and other things. But Mark was my, one of my biggest dudes and he had a, uh, slick, uh, of one of the drink menus and he goes, this purple is too dark. And I was like, well, it's under an illuminated light. You know, of course it's going to be too dark, but when it's luminated it'd be fine because, well, it's still too dark. We went back and forth on it and I'm just kind of like, okay. And as I'm walking out of his office, he goes, don't you want this? And I go, why? You're the one that's a problem with it, not me. And I was like, well, I probably

Speaker A: shouldn't have said that.

Speaker C: But, uh, and I left and I went down and I was visiting Long beach and so I went down Huntington beach and there's the pulsa Chica Reserve and all these seagulls are like, flying over me, which I've never seen. They're usually just hanging out and they're all around me and I'm like, they're all saying, you should go. And. And I said, all right. So I gave notice that on my last day, there was like, I don't know, hundreds of, uh, dragonflies swarming my window outside, which was Chinese believe is a symbol of good luck. I'd love to believe that it all went perfectly at that moment, but I think an awful lot of people are so scared that everything goes down. And I'm here to tell you, I'm proof of it, that at some point you say, wow, thank God that I'm out of that. And even though you're not in a new place that may feel comfortable, I think that decision, um, when it's made by you is more, is easier to deal with than that. Text, uh, at 4:52 and say like, oh, my God, you know, because. Did your gut say it's over and we can sleep now, or was it like, I'll deal with you like Scarlett o'. Hare? I'll deal with that to tomorrow.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I. I just. I just. I think maybe I have some years of experience and I believe in myself. I've done some really fun things with some companies. And I know that the decision wasn't made for performance or anything like that. It was just a decision. And, um, you know, me going in a chaotic fashion or a neurotic fashion would not help me, would not help guide my, my actions. And so I just chose, hey, uh, you know what? It's kind of like surfing. You know, Huntington beach, one of the best places for surfing. You said not every moment is a wave. Sometimes there's little troughs in the middle where the ocean has to reset and you get your bearings back, and then there's another wave. And you know what? That may not be the one you want to ride. So guess what? I'm going to wait for the next wave. And I think life is, this is simple, but it's really like that. I mean, we don't always have to have this perceived sense of security, and we don't have to stay at a job or a role that we don't like if we're not thriving in. Because, um, if you really break it down, you're not safe, you're not secure, you're not guaranteed anything. So just go out and find what makes you happy.

Speaker C: I think that's really an important point to put a pin in because, uh, it doesn't matter who you are or where you are, um, it's. There's nothing that is safe. But we are kind of taught to believe that. And I think it's interesting you chose that you're not going to go back for another corporate job, uh, that instead you decide to start off script. So what does that mean to you personally and who is it for or who is it not for? Tell us a little bit about it.

Speaker A: Well, I'll start with personally. It's something that I will say. I remember having this conversation with my father, uh, who has sadly long died. But this is in the, the year 2000. It was actually in 1999 and we were all fretting over 2000. And I said to my dad, you know, he was an executive with um, with uh, sales executive and, and he had the life, you know, played off all the time, just, you know, everything you ever.

Speaker C: Good old days, the Mad Men era.

Speaker A: And I said, dad, we need to start a, a coaching company called TNT Coaching Travilla and Travilla. And he looked at me, he goes, well, you're 23 years old, young man, you can't coach anybody. And I said, okay. So I stayed in retail for another million years. Um, but what off scored coaching means to me is it is the most purest sense of who I am. Anybody that's worked on my team will know this. Uh, even when I'm not around, they'll probably say this. I give everything to my team. They are my priority. And uh, they're the ones that I look after. It's my responsibility to help them grow and, and realize their, their potential. And I've always taken that attitude and leadership. It's not about getting work done. It's about developing people through getting work done. And I've had a few bosses role model that to me, and I've had way more not role model that to me. And so I've, uh, I started off script coaching basically. Uh, it's for leaders who feel successful on paper, but you might, might have outgrown your, you know, your script if you will. You might be in a role that you're, you're languishing in or you're just mediocre and you're not going anywhere. So I help people figure out the next steps. I help people realize their strengths where they need to tidy up and uh, you know, get a little bit stronger and help make a bold decision to grow or go or do something new. Um, but the one thing Is, is I bring clarity and I don't bring corporate jargon. Even though I've been in that for a long time with corporate, you know, whiteboards and inspirations. I bring real life experience. Uh, and I bring success, I bring failure. I bring it all so people understand that they're talking to a human. Not necessarily, um, you know, someone with a bajillion degrees. That may not have worked where I've worked.

Speaker C: Okay, excellent. Well, we're going to take a little break here, but I want you to think about this question. You know, if one of your former team members said Brian should have seen this coming, would they be right? Don't answer that. Take a moment to think about it. And for those of you who are listening, who are retailers, which should be an awful lot of you, ever watch shoppers leave your store empty handed and wonder what went wrong? Imagine being able to turn those missed opportunities into loyal customers. Transform your retail sales with SalesRx plus, our AI powered online training platform that turns browsers into buyers. And after each video, associates have to practice with Sidekick Rex until they get it right. Managers get dashboards and coaching to ensure training sticks built in mystery shops and smart scheduling drive measurable double digit sales gains. Visit salesrx.com to learn more. We're back with Brian Travilla to answer this question. If one of your former team members said Brian should have seen this coming, would they be right? And your answer is yes and no.

Speaker A: Okay, let me explain. Uh, as I got deeper and deeper in Amazon, I found myself being more resistant to the corporate herd mentality. And my team saw that in me. They just saw it because I would be the one that would polite, politely and professionally disagree in a room to bring Socratic debate. Um, not necessarily always just go with the easiest, uh, answer. And that's discourse because the public heard, doesn't want that man just all flow together. Uh, so they would probably say no. Never was disruptive. But I, I was one who. That would challenge the paradigm for us all to grow a little bit better. And then the no. Um, I brought culture. I brought some really fun culture to the team. And um, you know, when, when I got my, my announcement, the amount of people that reached out that some I've never worked with were just like, oh my God, you of all people, of all people. And uh, you know, that's a tough pill to swallow. You just have to be humble and see how it was me. And you know what? I wish you the very best. If I can help you down the road, I'm Open, you know, let me know. So it's a yes and no. Um, you know, and maybe I could have probably self managed that. Yes. Maybe just a teeny bit better. But I believe, you know, if you're, if you're growing at the rate growing at Amazon, you just can't go with what always works. You have to break things, iterate, rebuild.

Speaker C: Well, you know, that's a great point. And I wonder how much of your identity was being the guy who is leading, you know, all of these people. And then what happens when that's gone? Because that could be tough. Are you losing the job or are you losing, losing the people more? Which do you feel like more?

Speaker A: Well, I, I would say, uh, people 100%. Uh, I, you know, I, I've been professionally distant from, from a lot of my team, uh, to give them space to, to, you know, rebuild under their new leader, which is a fantastic leader. Uh, but, you know, they're all, they all miss me and I miss them. Uh, so I, I think that, um, you know, losing good people that bring culture and care to an organization, it's hard to replace. It just is because, you know, a lot of folks don't focus on that. Bob.

Speaker C: No, I think that's, that's great. You lead right into my next question, which is, um, you know, think about in retail and people management, what conversation are most store managers avoiding right now that they should be having?

Speaker A: Well, right now they're probably on the heels of the performance reviews for their teams. Well, they probably just completed, uh, that. And there's a percentage that are probably disgruntled because they A, didn't get the raise or the rating they wanted, or B, they didn't get the promotion they feel in their mind they deserve? And as a store manager, it's important to drive honestly, honesty, transparent clarity to them. Hey, this is where I see you at and, and you and I will level set, so we're aligned. But, but where you're at is, is way over here. And uh, let's be really specific and get very specific examples. And I think specificity is what they're missing. They're probably avoiding that tough conversation and letting that person run, uh, you know, work in the store that's, that's disengaged, which then transmutes to customers.

Speaker C: Well, right. And then that everything kind of goes down, goes down the sewer from that point. Um, is there some retail practice that you either did when you first started out or even Petco or whatever that you believed in and you thought that was the way that you since changed your mind about.

Speaker A: Um, well, I used to have career check ins quite a bit and um, you know, there were your associates.

Speaker C: This is people under you or people above you or have specific.

Speaker A: These are to my. Good question. Those to my team. I would have career check ins. Where do you see yourself, how can I help you get there, what skills do you need, etc. And, and those were successful because they were really rich conversations. But again, you know, getting promoted is on the person, it's not on the manager. And I think sometimes we look at it, it's more of a management function. Well, I went to Amazon and, and you know, Amazon 100% it's on you there. You know that it is, it is unquestionably you have to figure that out on your own. So I, I pulled off those career conversations while I, I had them. I didn't have them as the, I didn't have them enough because the culture was that the employee has to figure it all out because from a management standpoint there's not a whole lot I can do within the systems there.

Speaker C: That's really interesting. Um, do you think the leaders are shaped more by the moments they choose or moments they don't get to choose? Which do you think?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that I, I think there's that always that voice in the back of every leader's head and the things you don't do and you know, you didn't do them and you should do them, but you don't do them. And I do believe that shapes you.

Speaker C: Cool. Well, I know that we both experienced, uh, times when we made decisions ourselves and like most people, if you stay long enough, uh, they make the decision for you and experience them both and neither one feels good, but both, uh, I think shape us and make us better people all the way. And you know, after everything you've been through, building teams and losing teams and now going literally off script, um, tell me something good about retail that you still believe.

Speaker A: Well, I, I always believe retail will exist. I think we're a little bit still in the um, schizophrenic phase as to what that looks like because I, I'm very much happy with less and less just, you know, on all online. I like going into a store. I've been going into stores more. I still believe, Bob, uh, that we really got to instill basic 101. Because here's my tell. When I go to a store, if I walk in and I'm not greeted and I look all around and you look at really expensive things and then I don't buy anything and I'm walking out the door and they go, have a good day. That's the only engagement you gave me, is to say goodbye. You didn't even, like, give me one second. I was recently at a musical, uh, instrument store looking at a very expensive guitar, like two feet in front of me. And I counted four associates just walk by. And I know that that's an hourly employee that isn't incentivized to build a relationship, discover needs, you know, overcome objections and close the sale 101 and only when, as I said, I left or they just waved me goodbye. And, uh, it was, it's just, it's heart crushing because I could have bought that, I may have bought that if you would have talked to me about it, you know, put it in my hands, let me play it. Um, so I think that retail, I believe retail is going to find a way to serve the customer again. And it's not going to be in a way of speed anymore because we kind of went through the pandemic speed. It was all about getting to you right away. And that's fine. But like, I think people are more discerning now. They want speed, quality, you know, and the experience. So I, I believe those. Um. Uh, I was recently at a Vera Bradley store and I had an amazing experience with them walking through all the new patterns and, you know, all the stuff that, uh, that they offer. And you could tell they were trained, you could tell they were passionate about the customer and they wanted to sell something not in a way to like make commission, but they wanted you to have their, their merchandise. And so that was really encouraging.

Speaker C: I love that. I love that. Well, you know, that's always the thing that gets me. I, uh, was going to end with something good about retail, but we'll come back to it. But the, uh, the whole idea that they saw you, they knew, you know, musical. We saw you, we get points, we saw you like. No, that just acknowledges that you did a terrible job. Right. And I think that the, you know, to tell you something good about retail that people still care about, like at Vera Bradley, and the only place you're going to find that is to go into a brick and mortar store. Yeah, you can see patterns online, but at the end of the day, until you can feel it and touch it, and more importantly, the. There's two sales that happens. One, the salesperson with you first and then between you and the product, and if you acknowledge that, then you're like Oh, I have to do a lot more. So thanks for joining us a second time on Tell Me Something Good About Retail and we appreciate you being here.

Speaker A: Brian, thanks so much, Bob.

Speaker B: You've been listening to Tell Me Something Good About Retail with Bob Phibs, the Retail Doctor. As a listener, you can receive free information and guides when you visit retaildoc.com and sign up for our exclusive weekly newsletter. Thanks for being with us. Remember to subscribe on itunes, M Spotify, or wherever you like to get your podcasts. To virtually bring Bob to all of your crew and associates, check out www.salesrx.com.