Beyond Selling: How to Build Rainmakers Inside Your CPA Firm

Speaker A: Welcome, Welcome. I just want to say this is going to be such a dynamic conversation. I'm um, Lauren Fogelman with Business Success Solution and I show accounting professionals how to be able to double their income working half the time. And the topic today is beyond Selling how to build rainmakers inside your CPA firm. And my special guest today is Samantha Manfield. Uh, so you're in the right place if you want to grow your firm without feeling like you have to become that pushy salesperson. That's just not your style. If you're curious about how business development really works inside today's future focused modern day CPA firms. And if you want to build confidence and capability across your team so growth is not solely dependent on you. So uh, if any of those things appeal to you, I suggest you have pen and paper ready or place to take notes because C Samantha is going to share a lot and then we will also let you know how to connect with her as we wrap up A, uh, little bit about Samantha. Samantha Mansfield is a senior consultant at Convergence Coaching llc. It's a national consulting firm focused on helping leaders achieve greater success. She's been recognized by Accounting Today as one of the top 100 most influential people in accounting. She's named to CPA practice advisors 40 under 40 and honored to be an American Institute of CPAs and CPA practice advisor as one of the most powerful women in accounting. So just a little bit more. Samantha is deeply committed to coaching professionals and guiding firms as they rethink and strengthen their business models. She's energized by sharing practical ideas that help people grow, lead with confidence and also build firms that are designed for long term success. Her passion teaching extends beyond her client work and into her community where she actively gives back and stays engaged. So if you're interested in finding out more about Samantha or convergence coaching, you can go to convergence coaching.com so Samantha, I am so looking forward to our conversation today. Thank you for joining me.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, it's such a pleasure. Thank you very much for the invitation.

Speaker A: And before we go into anything else, I would just like to hear how did you get into this particular focus of what you're doing?

Speaker B: Oh sure. You know it's interesting, uh, when my career started, my career actually started in sales, uh, in technology sales. Ah. I, I was helping practitioners, uh, in public accounting transition from DOS into Windows based, uh, general ledger programs. Uh, and that was after surviving Y2K. So it was, it was time to move into a Windows based program. But um, so my career started in Sales. And what I really found is that in the sales process, the part that I enjoyed the most was the rolling up my sleeves and getting to know the client that I was working with. What, what was happening in their firm, what was working, what wasn't working, what did they want to accomplish? And that was genuinely the part that lit me up, that was the part that made me feel satisfied in my work, is that when I knew we found a solution that got them there. And so as time was going on I really found that consulting allowed me to do so much more of that and that I got to stay engaged with the practitioners, uh, after that. So I got to see what's going on, how are you progressing? And so I've had uh, uh, this year will be 26 years that I've been working with public accounting, um, professionals. I've spent time working at um, subsidiary of the aicpa and I've this year will be what, seven years that I've been with convergence coaching. So uh, it's been a wonderful ride. I love what I get to do every day.

Speaker A: And really from listening to this journey that you've had, what I hear is even with this sales positions, you approached it from a consulting hat as opposed to a selling I need to close a new client.

Speaker B: Exactly, uh, 100%. I was not comfortable with the clothes that was probably in me learning how to sell. That was probably the hardest part for me, uh, was the uh, then asking for the business, uh, when I first got started because one, I really did enjoy the getting to know my clients. So the just that inquiry and that being curious, uh, and spending time with them and then the close that meant that was going to come to an end. And I didn't like that part. Uh, but then also it just always felt like is there something more? Is there there another solution? How much deeper can I go? And uh, you know, your metrics are a little bit different when you're trying to sell, uh, versus if you're being a consultant. And great, now we close it. But now I get to keep working with you. You know, now we're just solidifying what the engagement and the scope of this work is going to be. So I still sell in what I do right now. But it's nice because it doesn't end with the sale like it did, um, with the technology side. I really get to keep working alongside them. And that's very much what practitioners do. You know, they, they hear the problems of their clients, they hear what businesses or individuals are strug with or what their goals are, and then they can propose solutions to those, and then they get to walk alongside them and see that come to fruition. And at least for me, that's what I just lights me up. It's what gets me excited and I'm

Speaker A: on the same page as you are. So when I talk with firm owners and we talk about business development, it means different things to different people. What do you see as a commonly meaning. So we can just get on the same page with that particular definition?

Speaker B: Absolutely. So I love that you're asking this because many times when we talk about business development, the first thought that comes to people's minds is that means it's selling. It means I need to go sell. And business development is actually a broader definition than that if you look at the components. So you, selling is an element of business development, but there's also the corporate marketing and there's also the personal marketing, the personal brand that you're going to, uh, put out there and that you're going to develop. And so you hear a lot of that when we talk about things like thought leadership and your networking and, you know, the value of the sphere of influence that you create just by the network of people that, you know, all of that is all part of business development. But I think unfortunately, what a lot of people zero in on when they hear the term is that they think it's right into the selling, the hard close, the ask for the business, the close the deal. Uh, and there's really so much more to it than that and so many more layers to it where people can find their place and where they can, uh, start making an entrance into the, that portion of the business.

Speaker A: And, and, and so what I'm hearing is that you take more of a holistic view regarding business development, realizing that there's many different aspects and even phases to it, as opposed to it just being one particular narrow path that you go down.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. I would say rainmaking is where we more focus maybe on the sourcing and the, the selling and, you know, the closing of the business. That's maybe when we're using that rainmaker term, we may zero in on that definition a little more. But when we talk about business development, I think it's important to realize that it's very much, shall I say, a team sport where it takes multiple people and it takes multiple people with different talents and different skill sets, uh, that can create a lot of success for the firm.

Speaker A: And I, and I think that that is so important because one of the things that I Found with many firms is that sometimes the firm owner is not the best person to do the those initial consultations or to be able to move them into their business because the firm owners a lot of times have too much emotion attached to whether they end up closing or losing a potential client. Whereas maybe someone else on their team might not be as attached to the yes and no decision.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think that is so valid. Um, and it makes me think of a couple of things, Lauren. One is where you talk about the attachment. What you can run into is if this is an existing client or maybe it's somebody that was referred by a client that you really, uh, enjoy or cherish. But the referred in business maybe isn't a right fit. And one of the things that I have found in working with public accountants for quarter of a century now is I adore the empathy and compassion that they have for people. But what that also leads to is they have a hard time saying no and when it's not a right fit. And so where you said that attachment, that connection, sometimes they need somebody else to be in there and help them say, this is not going to, uh, allow you, uh, to do your best work. This is not the best fit for where and how we're trying to grow the practice. And so we don't want to say yes to everybody. And you may need somebody if you know that you have a hard time doing that. Because I coach people all the time and say it's not. The question isn't could I do this work? It's should I do this work? There's a lot of work that you could do, but that doesn't mean that that's the work that's really going to allow you to be at uh, your highest and best in the expertise that you have or the value that you bring to clients and allow you to really keep a healthy pipeline in your firm. If we just say yes to everybody that shows up at our doorstep. So there's, there's that element to what you were saying. Um, the other that I like about having somebody else do some of your prospecting or with some of the earlier phases before you even talk to somebody about possibly, um, becoming a client, is that that again does not allow you to perform at your highest and best. If you are the one who you're trying to qualify. Every opportunity that comes into your firm through your website calls in. You're eating a lot of precious time that could be spent and more value build for the firm. You can teach somebody to ask those early qualifying Questions and to vet people out, and that's much better use of your team and your resources. Uh, so that's another one, um, that I would just highlight in what you said. So valuable, make it a team. Don't feel like it all has to be you.

Speaker A: Some of the things that I just want to reiterate for those who are listening first off is that not everybody who reaches out to you is going to be a great fit for you. Affirm. And one of the things that I believe, and I really am very, uh, emphatic about, is the very first conversation that you have with a potential client. The question you need to answer first is, are they a fit, will you move forward or are they maybe not a fit and you need to just bless them and let them move on. So that is the purpose of that initial consultation, as Samantha was saying, is decide whether someone is a fit or not. That is the main goal of that initial conversation. Um, the other thing is that maybe you're doing things where it's not the best use of your time and your value and your expertise. So is there someone better that might be out there in the community or online doing some of the, um, social networking so that you're bringing people into your funnel? And. And then the third thing which is so important is it's beneficial to actually pre qualify a client before they get an appointment on your calendar. And you don't need to be the one pre qualifying. Your website can do it, a questionnaire can do it, or someone else on your team can be doing that as well. And they're the ones that are like your gatekeeper before you having that meeting set up on your calendar and taking some of your precious time. So did I miss anything on that, Samantha?

Speaker B: No, no. And I mean, we could talk on each piece of that, uh, for, you know, the next half hour, but there's a lot that you can unpack in each of those areas. But absolutely, it's just key to know that it's, it's really not all on you.

Speaker A: And therefore there must be some characteristics. So what makes someone really effective at business development versus someone who maybe struggles at it?

Speaker B: Sure. I'm going to say the answer to that is mindset. I think most people would expect that. I would say, well, it's a personality trait or it's, you know, uh, an innate or natural talent at being able to do business development. And I would absolutely, emphatically say that's not the case. Your mindset to it makes the huge difference on how successful you are with Business development, um, and in what you do with those opportunities. So what I mean by that is are you curious? Do you approach it from a place of I'm listening to see if there are solutions and problems that I can solve and if not, then it's okay and I walk away. And there's nothing wrong with getting a no. Sometimes if we feel like we say no or the prospect says no, that that's maybe some sort of a failure. But in business development, you should never be shooting for 100% close rate because nobody's marketing is that spot on. You know, uh, nobody's going to get only 100% accuracy of the right fit clients that would come in your door. And so, but that's a mindset element of um, how we feel that if we say no to somebody else or if they say no to us. And then like I said, I think a big part of it is how curious how much do you want to go build relationships with people? Because the other piece, Lauren, is we're talking a lot about with a prospect or a lead. But the other big piece of your business development strategy has to be the relationships you have with your referral network. Um, it's such an important element for anybody, especially in professional services like our audience here, is that you want a quality referral network. And it's not about quantity, but it's about having good relationships with quality, uh, folks that you feel comfortable either referring to them or they refer to you. And here's another myth. It's not always both directions.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Uh, and so careful about picking referrals that only exist because it goes both directions. It doesn't always work that way. And that's okay.

Speaker A: So one of the things that you mentioned, um, and I agree with is don't uh, shoot for 100% close rate. Actually, I believe if you have 100% close rate, then it tells me that your rates are too low. So I'm going to just go into that also, uh, and that it's also about the relationship, uh, with your network. However, what I've seen for myself is that I'm more of an introvert than an extrovert. And so not all rainmakers are either extroverts or introverts. There's probably some type of continuum. So do you find that there's like different types of rainmakers that um, can show up regardless of what your personality type is?

Speaker B: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. So one, I appreciate that you brought up the introvert extrovert question because uh, again, we can have this filter in our minds thinking that, well, I'm an introvert and so I'm not going to be good at business development. I'm not good at going and networking at events. Right? That's a big one. Now it can be learned. And it does mean that you probably are doing more prep before you go to a networking event as an introvert, because it doesn't feel as comfortable for you to go to those events, to go to something whether it's remote, like how you and I met Lauren. We met at a remote scenario like this. I think there were like 60 people in the room. But you and I met um, through that. And we're both introverts and yet we found each other, we connected, we had a great conversation which led to today. And that's the key is keeping in mind that that mindset element that I was talking about, it doesn't mean because I'm an introvert or an extrovert that I will be good or I won't be good at business development. Now an extrovert, they may really enjoy going to events where they get to meet lots of people and they get energy from that, that boosts them up, that hypes them up. Where an introvert, when they go to those kinds of events, they're going to need some quiet time afterwards because it drains their energy. But that doesn't mean that an introvert or an extrovert is good or not good at it. Both of them can be just as good at networking and building relationships and doing business development there. It's about learning the processes, which, there is a process to it and the uh, the methodology behind it. And that doesn't matter what personality type you are. We can all learn that.

Speaker A: So one of the things that we talked about before we, um, got on this conversation together was the four types of rainmakers. Can you kind of give me an idea as to what those four different types are?

Speaker B: Absolutely. So again, when we talk about business development, I think for most people they jump right into the thought of that seller model, right. That they think that's what's expected of me when, uh, when my leaders or people are saying I need to start getting involved in development. But at Convergence Coaching, we identify that there are four types of business developers. And the first type that we talk about is really the supporter. And what the supporter role is is this is somebody who, they may join in on a prospecting conversation. They may take the notes, they may, um, write the recap afterwards, they may help draft the proposal they're doing. All of these support, supporter kinds of roles. That all needs to happen. They make sure that the thank you email gets sent afterwards or whatever it is. Right. Very, very important that we have all of this follow through. And that is a part of business development is that supporter role. There's also the server role. And what the server does is they commonly identify those opportunities with existing clients. What more could we do for an existing customer? If we hear this client saying they keep having this problem, or maybe we hear them say they're starting a new initiative, we then, uh, as that server capacity are thinking, oh, that could be something else that we could do for them and not go out of scope of our current engagement. Which is what you're saying too, right? When we have to be careful that we don't, um, go out of scope and then just give away our services. That's what a server does. A server is really listening to our current relationships and saying, I think there's an opportunity here. And that's usually a very easy place for people because we've already got the relationship with the client. And they don't even see themselves as doing business development when they add those services on. But you absolutely are. And it's one of the most economical ways for us to do business development. And then we have the seller, and that's the one, like I said, most of us think about. Those are the ones who, we put the elements of the proposal together, we ask for the business, we get the engagement letter signed, those kinds of things. That's our classic seller. And then the last is the sourcer. And the sourcer, uh, is in different capacities. So the sourcer is. I was just talking to somebody this week and they were saying, oh my goodness, we have a partner in our firm that he walks down the street and he'll come, he'll come back to the office with five leads, right? That's a sourcer. They just have such a reputation and they've gotten to know their community so well that they bring in leads. But sourcers can do it remotely and digitally as well. You may be a thought leader, uh, again, kind of like what we're doing right now, Lauren, where you do a podcast, you do a webinar, you write an article for an association in a niche industry that you serve. And that's how you build your brand and your reputation on this, the experience and deep knowledge that you have. And then people come into your firm because they're looking for that and they saw that all of that is sourcing. And so when you track Business development. It's really important to realize that you have those four types and that we give that credit in our tracking of who's been involved in the deal because it's not just the person who sold it and it's not just the person who brought in the lead.

Speaker A: And it also depends on the size of the firm. So a smaller firm, especially if you're solo still, as opposed to one that's one of the top 100s, uh, you might be wearing more than one hat, but to realize that there's different aspects to bringing someone into your business, um, the rainmaking, that's the supporter which is doing more, the admin and the assistance for the main person, the server is the person that is maybe looking within the firm and who are the clients that maybe have needs that aren't being served yet. And we can definitely assist them with that. The seller is the person who's doing the more traditional client facing role of asking for the business. And then the sourcer is the person. I keep on thinking sorcerer, when you say that actually the sourcer is the person who is out there maybe, um, getting awareness and interest and getting people from not even having awareness, to awareness, to interest and then to wanting to have a further conversation with somebody within the firm, um, on how to be able to move forward.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And I want to punctuate something you were just saying is that within a firm I may play different roles on different deals. So it's not like I'm always the sourcer or I'm always the seller. I can play different roles depending on the different scenarios. Uh, and then 100% I can wear multiple hats depending on what the situation is or the size of our firm. But what's also valuable about recognizing these four roles is that one, for people who think, I don't do business development, I can't be involved. When you define it these ways, then they start to realize and it affects the mindset where they think, oh, I guess I am playing a part in our business development process. And then the second piece is that as you find opportunities to be able to delegate and that you're not having to wear all the hats. It's a great way to be able to peel apart what you do. Because when you've been having to wear all the hats for a while, it's hard to start identifying what part of this don't I have to do. And these give you some defined, uh, roles that you could start to delegate to.

Speaker A: And with what you're saying, I think it's True for anything that happens in your firm when you're team building is that this could be systematized. And if we're able to systematize the process, then we can eventually get it off of the firm owner's plate onto somebody else's plate and be able to cross train as well.

Speaker B: Yes, yes, absolutely. There is, there is a process. It m. Is not just an art, which again for people who it doesn't feel as natural, they feel like it's an art, um, and that it's just something that you're good at or not good at. And that's not the case. It is very much a process that you can learn and follow.

Speaker A: And one of the things that you also mentioned is that you can do this even if you have a virtual firm. And as you know, more and more firms are no longer brick and mortar. They are now either hybrid or they're fully remote. And uh, has that affected how people do business development now?

Speaker B: Oh, it should. If it hasn't, you should, you should 26 make that a priority. It should affect how you do business development. So I'll start with what it doesn't affect and that is it's still about relationships.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So when you're doing successful business development, it is about making connections and building relationships. That's number one. What does change is how we go about building those relationships. And we don't have to think that we physically have to be present with somebody to be able to build a lasting or a relationship. And it's funny, um, in the, the programs that we teach and when I coach practitioners, you know, I share some stories that I've been using social media for a lot of years now and when I go to a conference or whatnot and I finally meet somebody in person for the first time and it's this moment that you sit there and think, is this really the first time we're meeting? Because we've talked so much through social or we've connected so much through social that I even have to physically pause and say, wait a minute. I think this is the first time physically we're meeting each other and I share that story because too often we feel like social media is superficial and we're not able to build depth of relationships. And that's not the case. But it's only going to get deep and we're only going to be successful with that when you're intentional about your approach. So we have to be intentional about the outreach that we do. We have to be intentional with the follow up that we do. If somebody does connect with us, uh, and we have to be, make ourselves visible. So again, like how you and I met, there were a lot of people in that room. Right. If we hadn't spoken up and said something where we found out we had some things in common, if we didn't have our cameras on where we could see each other and make some connections, then the likelihood of us even meeting in that scenario is far more diminished. But I think people will go to remote events and say check the box. Right. I did it. But how engaged were you?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, were you in the chat, were you connecting? Were you immediately going onto LinkedIn and sending them a message saying hey, I really appreciated what you said in that conversation today, maybe we can have a follow up, uh, coffee chat, you know, um, remotely like we did, or if you are local, like I'm going to one recently or um, coming up where we're going to actually get to go have breakfast together. But it doesn't have to be that way just to be able to get those relationships. And that's what has to be um, really considered is that we can do this in a remote environment as long as you put the strategy and the intention behind it.

Speaker A: And so many of the points that you're making I think actually crossover and apply to in person networking as well as virtual networking where you need to be intentional, especially if you're more of an introvert than an extrovert, uh, you approach it a little bit differently. You need to make sure that you're being seen in some way as opposed to just standing in the background which is easy to do in an in person event. Also, uh, it's just the ways of doing it are different. So with in virtual you have the chats and you have a Follow up on LinkedIn. In uh, in person, maybe you are going over and asking a question or introducing yourself and shaking someone's hand. So there's a virtual handshake and then there's the actual in person handshake. But the bottom line is it is about connecting with somebody and you don't need to connect with everybody, you just need to be intentional and see who maybe is someone, that there's some commonalities, you like something that they said and you want to be able to get to know them a little bit better. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. The key thing when you start with business development because it can feel overwhelming and especially, especially most practitioners I talk to, they don't feel like they have um, just extra time, you know, they feel full, they Oftentimes they feel overwhelmed. And especially like right now, this time of year. Right. So much of the profession is heads down in tax or audit season, uh, and, and it feels very full. So it may be feeling like, why do I even need to focus on this? Why do I need to try to build these, these skills? And the, the real fact of the matter is because you want to build a client base that you enjoy.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You want clients that bring you joy. We spend a lot of hours working and we don't have to say yes to everybody. So you want to have a pipeline full of opportunities because you're going to have clients that age out or that sell their business or whatever the situation is. There's natural attrition that happens in your client base. And so you don't want to be in a position where you just have to add another client because I need the revenue. Let's have a healthy pipeline of people who are getting to know you and want to work with you. And then I can strategically choose my yeses that I want to say that to.

Speaker A: And Samantha, I know that like in the beginning of my journey, which was back in 2009 and I started move in this direction, the thought of going to a network meeting, uh, and at that point they were mainly in person was very, very intimidating. Especially if I knew that I was going to have a chance to maybe get up in front of the room and introduce myself for 30 seconds. I would have this aerobic heartbeat the entire time just waiting. I couldn't hear what anybody else said because I was so nervous about that. So, uh, do you have any recommend, any recommendations for someone who might be interested in this? Um, but they don't have the confidence. And what couldn't they maybe do as a first step to get started?

Speaker B: 100%. So if you're looking for a way to get involved, and so you're using the example of trying to get involved with uh, like a group or an event. One thing that you could do is you could contact the event organizer and maybe ask, ask to have a role that you could play. Maybe you help make sure everybody that comes in, uh, gets a name tag. Right. Because M gives you an opportunity to make sure you're saying hello to everybody. But also you have a reason you have to say hello to everybody as they come in. Right. And so for introverts, a lot of times when we have a role to play, uh, we have a job to do, it feels much more natural as opposed to walking in there and saying, why do these folks Want to talk to me? You know, what am I going to say? That there's going to make them want to talk to me. And so anything that you could do where you have, that you have to do an introduction can really calm you down. So that's one thing. Um, so name badge, maybe hand out the drink tickets, you know, uh, help make m sure people know where things are, whatever it is. But check with the organizer. And that's another thing. Another one that I would say is set a goal for yourself when you go to the event. So say I want to walk out with three new connections because again we can go in thinking, oh my goodness, there's this room full of people. Am I supposed to meet everybody? Am I supposed to uh, you know, walk out of here with 25 business cards and or LinkedIn connections? I, I don't even take my business cards most times when I go anymore. But when we do that, that's overwhelming and very likely you can't follow up on 25 anyway. So give yourself a break and say, what's my goal? Is it three? Is it five? And if you're wondering who that might be, you could also talk to the event organizer and say, hey, this is what I do and who might be some good people for me to talk to.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, and then the other value of doing that is that it helps you to pre think of some of your opening questions to start a conversation. Because uh, for introverts that's one of the things that gets us nervous is how do I even start the conversation? Once we're in the conversation it usually starts to flow and we feel more comfortable. But to just go in and start that and I don't know the person, that's for many people that just, it's an uncomfortable thing. Now extroverts for the most part enjoy that. They, they love doing that, but not everybody, um, that is something that brings them joy. Uh, so that's another tip. And then if you get an opportunity like what you said, to be able to go up and introduce yourself, here's the key thing is embrace the mindset that it's not about me me, it's about them. Mhm. Think about who's in that audience and what about me brings them value and make what you have to say about them not about you. So yes, you want to say who you are, you want to say what it is that you do, but you want to phrase it in a way that addresses problems and needs and solutions that they have or they need that then they want to come talk to you further. Mhm. Always think about when you're trying to put a message together, always think about what's in it for them and how do I say it that way? And then pressure's off of you and then they'll typically come up to you and want to talk further because you've said something that, that means something of value to them.

Speaker A: So one of the mindsets that you're mentioning, um, is what I call the golden rule of marketing, where it's about putting you before me. Uh, I want to do something that's going to add value to you, be helpful for you, and as a result of that, they might then want to know more about me and what I do. Um, and I think that that is something that's very natural for very, for client centered firm owners, for people that are out there who want to be able to be helpful is thinking about how can I make a difference for them. So I love that you shared that point as well. And Samantha, this has been such an engaging conversation. I know we could have gone on and on and on in many different directions, but I really feel that what you offer deeply served everybody joining us today. So thank you for that. And some of the things that we covered was expanding our understanding of business development beyond selling. Expanding, explaining those four types of rainmakers and how firms can leverage different strengths and then highlighting some practical starting points so that we can build confidence in the skills. Uh, especially if this is something a little bit newer and if there are accounting firms that are listening to us that would like to find out more about you and convergence coaching, what's the best way for them to do that?

Speaker B: Sure. Uh, so you can go to my LinkedIn, uh, and you can certainly get my email address from there, uh, which is Samantha Mansfield. Um, and uh, I think I pretty much look like my picture, so you'd be able to know. Uh, or you could go to convergencecoaching.com uh, and you could also contact us through there.

Speaker A: Great. Thank you so much, Samantha, for the engaging conversation and for everybody that was joining us today, this is Lauren Fogelman with Business Success Solutions showing accounting firm owners how to be able to double their revenue working half the time.